/vr/ - Retro Games

Passwords put me off playing Metroid for the longest time. Thanks to cell phones taking a picture of the password in place of writing it down makes life much easier.

>>5728078
So much. That's a good 5-10 seconds saved.

>>5728045
They don't say that though. Too much effort and critical thinking required. They just say "it's clunky" and "it hasn't aged well".

>>5728045
>Too few checkpoints. No rewards or story, so no motivation to keep playing.

>>5728085
Yeah, it definitely adds up. Makes it feel like there almost isn't a password system since instead of "pausing" the game and turning on the lights, grabbing a piece of paper and pen, writing down 24 characters, you just whip out a phone and take a picture. It makes ending playing a clean break. Even enhances memory of what you've done/explored on that playthrough by removing that end data storage process from thought. It's preferable to spend time setting up the game in the beginning with inputting a password.

Did the password system change how you play the game? Like did it make you want to play longer so you explore more to write down the least amount of passwords? I know it made me try beating The Legend of the Mystical Ninja in one sitting to avoid writing down the password, which has a far longer password than Metroid.

Secondly, I started mapping out the game after getting stuck (doing a blind run) looking for the ice beam. Playing with the lights on messes with immersion. I completely separated the day of playing with the lights on mapping out the game from in-the-dark exploration. Did you do anything like that?
>>5728090
It's confusing on how well Metroid is received. If I look at top 10 NES game lists I almost always see it there, but if I read about it from individuals chatting about the game on /v/, for instance, the reception is generally not as highly esteemed to say the least.

You could play the original FDS version.

>>5728223
Thanks for the suggestion. I've always wanted a Famicom to play the original SMB2 with intact physics and no continue system.

>>5728045
With all that being said, there is legitimately no reason you should have to farm enemies to refill your energy tanks.

>>5728478
Yes there is. Metroid is about survival in a hostile place.

>>5728207
Yeah, I played it for the first time a few years ago and I went through it in either 1 or 2 sessions, and the password system probably influenced me to some extent, for the better I'd say.

I had always read about people making maps on graph paper, and I considered doing it, but I ended up going without. I don't think I have an amazing sense of direction, so either it's not as difficult to navigate as people led me to believe or I got lucky. It was one of the best experiences I've had playing a game in a long time, and it put into stark relief the terrible patronizing and mind numbing trends of modern games.

Recently I played through Super Metroid, and though I liked it the experience was a lot less impactful than the original; for a game that should be threatening and disorienting it's too friendly.

Then I played Zero Mission and that was a huge step down. Aesthetically it's not close to being on par with Super or Metroid, and I assume you can guess what I thought of the handholding and both the mechanical and tonal friendliness. Fun game, but doesn't even approach the greatness of Metroid.

>>5728483
Exactly. And if you fuck up you're punished. That's what makes the environment feel hostile and intense. If there are no serious repercussions then you can add all of the threatening window dressing you like, but it'll soon feel mundane, like riding through a haunted Disney ride where nothing can harm you.

>>5728483
It doesn't add to the feeling of survival at all.. All it does is cause the player to take a break from the actual game to run in and out of a room killing the same enemies over and over. That's not fun or immersive; In fact it's the complete opposite of both. If I wanted to do tedious busywork I would be playing a jrpg not Metroid.
And of course Super Metroid remedies this obvious flaw and is the superior game because of it.

>>5728510
>All it does is cause the player to...
Fear taking damage and fear dying.

>>5728502
>>5728514
In Super Metroid You can lose a significant amount of progress if you die before reaching one of the save points, that are spaced out just enough to create sufficient tension. That is clearly a superior way to create fear for the player, rather than punishing them by forcing them to do something which is incredibly boring and tedious.
And chances are if you haven't studied the game before playing it. You're bound to die a decent amount and are then punished just for trying to play the game. This ends up annoying the player rather than immersing them with fear like you keep trying to imply it would.
So to sum things up, When you respawn your energy tanks should be full, not empty.

>>5728529
>if you die...
But when does that ever happen?

>... that are spaced out just enough to create sufficient tension.
The only places that anyone would ever realistically die in have save points immediately prior. Your definition of sufficient obviously isn't mine.

>>5728529
>So to sum things up, I'm gay.

>>5728538
>The only places that anyone would ever realistically die in have save points immediately prior.
That's just not true. There are plenty of points in the game that you could die especially the first time playing it.

Also you still don't seem to comprehend the problem with your argument about immersing the player with fear.
People already inherently don't wan't to die in video games. They don't need the extra "threat" of punishing them with busywork. Once you die in Metroid all the tension immediately evaporates and you now have to farm for at least 5 minutes before returning to the actual game. That just exhausts peoples patience and accomplishes the complete opposite of what you're trying to argue it does.

>>5728529
>by forcing them to do something which is incredibly boring and tedious.
You keep missing the point. It's not a matter of "punishing the player", it's a question of atmosphere and tension that comes from a survival-driven experience.

>>5728045
>Jewtendo builds games in such a way that you HAVE to use Jewtendo Jewficial Jewgazine
>Brainless goyim happily eat it and praises them for TRVE HARDCORE EXPERIENCE

>>5728569
I beat it without a subscription you invalid.

>>5728562
When? I played it for the first time this year without watching any runs or reading anything about it, and I died twice; once to that fat flying boss that repeatedly swoops down, and once to the final boss--both times mainly because I had been lulled by the game into nonchalance. I lost next to no progress both times. The challenge of Super Metroid is figuring out how to progress, and it does that well, but it's bad at creating tension or presenting hostile enemies.

>>5728569
If you need to consult outside sources to finish Metroid your mom probably makes you wear a helmet when you go outside.

>>5728568
>You keep missing the point. It's not a matter of "punishing the player"
I was responding to a post that straight up said it was about punishing the player.

But ok, if its all about tension then why not let the player immediately reenter the fray while they are still excited and engaged.
Creating tension by making the player refill their energy is an interesting concept, but in practice it doesn't really work. Replaying the same segment and farming for energy each time doesn't create tension, It destroys it.

>>5728573
I guess your just better than me at video games bro. I still think the game is tense enough without forcing the player to farm every time they die though.

>>5728584
So seem to confuse consequence with punishing the player.

>>5728589
This is the modern pathology.

>>5728589
No my problem is that the consequence is tedious and poorly thought out.

Also like I said, I was responding to other people that directly stated it was about being "punished." See here.>>5728502

>>5728598
>tedious and poorly thought out.
It was clearly intended to contribute to the atmosphere. You only found it tedious because you chose to farm.

>>5728614
>chose to farm
The most efficient method of refilling energy that I am aware of is to freeze Metroids and collect their drops, Which still takes longer than it should.
But besides that, what you're basically saying is that the consequence is rendered meaningless as long as I know how to efficiently refill my energy. Then whats the fucking point of it to begin with? Just refill my energy when I respawn and let me play the damn game already. It's just pointless busywork that adds nothing to the atmosphere and ruins an otherwise perfect game.

>>5728539
(You)

>>5728207
>It's confusing on how well Metroid is received.
It was well-received at the time as there wasn't any other games like it at least not on the NES.
>>5728614
>It was clearly intended to contribute to the atmosphere.
Not that guy, but I'm really not fucking seeing it, beyond a normal "death should have consequences" part of any videogame (Zelda had the same thing). There's nothing special and survivalish about Metroid's version of it, nothing at all.
Worse in my opinion are the extremely long and 100% repetitive vertical segments right near the beginning of the game. Which you can maybe claim are there to be "disorienting" but again are mostly just tedious and really look more like not having time or space to put any real content there but still needing to connect the already-designed areas.

>>5728572
>>5728578
I'm glad you had fun autistically discovering random unmarked blocks required to finish the game.

>>5728648
>There's nothing special and survivalish about Metroid's version of it, nothing at all.
Having to scrounge for resources and fend off predators isn't survivalist? The rest of your complaints are superficial. You're complaining that you were confused by a game designed to be confusing.

>>5728665
If you can learn to recognize patterns, you can beat the game. Did the blocks challenge you in preschool?

>>5728667
>Having to scrounge for resources and fend off predators.

If you're any good at the game, after your first couple attempts, collecting energy should be fairly standard. And at that point you just want to move on to parts of the game that you still find challenging.

passwords suck donkey dick

Metroid saving hack that refills health to full on continues and the hack that adds an in game map > FDS Metroid > Literal shit > Metroid

If i'm gonna run around copy pasted rooms for hours I'm playing with fucking saves and a map. I'm not an 80's child forced to play directionless games that require a guide to beat.

>>5728732
>I'm a big gay retard, and I start every morning with a big black dick
You could have just said so.

>>5728045
The icon for adventure games is clearly Pitfall yet there isn't Pitfall or any game like the adventure icon on the nes.
Well done , Nintendo.

>it's another "zoomers pretending to be boomers praise a shitty game" /vr/ thread
Come on, get it over with.

>>5728801
>It's another zoomers pretend to be boomers to falseflag post

>>5728667
>You're complaining that you were confused by a game designed to be confusing.
No, anon, it is not confusing at all. It's repetitive and boring. And it's right near the beginning of the game meaning the first experience that the player has is climbing a seemingly-endless series of identical platforms with no variation whatsoever in enemy placement or challenge. And that has to be climbed every time the player dies in one of the areas that are actually interesting. It's not confusing. It's not even disorienting unless you are colorblind. It's just fucking tedious.

>>5728824
>let me zoom in and crop out the rest of the map to make my point.

>>5728828
retard my point is that these vertical segments are at the very beginning of the game and they are excessively long. You have no answer for that.
I cropped the map for practical reasons, I assume you know what the whole thing looks like. Nothing changes the fact that less than 5 minutes into the game the player is faced with jumping up a sequence of platforms that repeats with almost no variation more than TEN TIMES.

>>5728834
and then it happens AGAIN with different color walls.

>>5728834
>they are excessively long
Now they aren't, you faggot. No more than any other transitional section in the game. And just looking at the full map now, enemy variety and platform placement in each zone.

>>5728847
>Now they aren't, you faggot.
Yes, they are.
>And just looking at the full map now, enemy variety and platform placement in each zone
Yes, the other vertical segments in the game are shorter and more varied than those two. Again, the problem is that these two are right at the beginning of the game meaning these are some of the first things the player experiences. In the course of exploration/backtracking or dying and trying to get back to where they were, the player is most likely going to traverse these long monotonous segments multiple times.

It is simply bad design there is no way around it. It doesn't mean the whole game is trash or anything, but your attempts to defend it are fucking hilarious I'll say that much. In the 1987 this was good enough for kids at the time. We didn't have much else to play, jumping up an endless shaft of repeating platforms was no more monotonous than various single-screen games like the original Mario Brothers.

But in retrospect, it's a really bad design and anyone designing their own exploration platformer would be smart to avoid imitating Metroid in this case.

>>5728879
>Yes, they are.
No, unless you're deliberately trying to die. You seem hellbent on deliberately projecting you're own singular experience onto everything to make up for being an incompetent faggot.

>>5728887
>No, unless you're deliberately trying to die.
wtf are you talking about? What part of "jumping up long shafts of repetitive platforms is boring" do you fail to understand? Are you a literal retard?

literally copy-pasted platforms an enemies. You somehow defend this.

>>5728918
Look nigger, you complained about farming, the shafts give you the opportunity to kill enemies and get health on the way to another area.
>>5728923
That's one shaft, you fag.

>>5728806
Don't need to be a boomer or a zoomer to know this game is shit, playing it is enough to draw that conclusion.

Even Metroid fans acknowledge the first game aged terribly, but it's not like it was ever a good game to begin with.

>>5728934
>Even Metroid fans acknowledge the first game aged terribly
You mean smashfags who only found out about Metroid through the Gamecube.

>>5728939
No, I mean Metroid fans who have been there since the beginning of the series, or alternatively, Super Metroid. Which again shows how the game was absolutely dated by the time Super Metroid came out.

There's no shame in admitting the game is garbage, anon. Plenty of long running franchises had terrible first entries, such as Dragon Quest. Even if I don't like the Super Mario series, at least I can acknowledge the first game has aged very well.

>>5728943
>or alternatively, Super Metroid
So people who only onboarded with a simplified remake of the first game?
>There's no shame in admitting the game is garbage, anon.
And there's no shame in admitting you're a casual.

>>5728946
>simplified remake
Have a nice day.

>>5728953
Super was basically a dumbed-down version of the original.

>>5728928
>you complained about farming
That wasn't me. Also try harder with the fucking name-calling lol.
>That's one shaft, you fag.
So? It's the very first one in the game. I just tested it out. It took me 90 seconds to grab the ball power-up and get to the shaft. It took me 60 seconds to make it to the first doorway, then another 40 seconds to make it to the top of the shaft. More than 50% of the time in my first 5 minutes of play was spent jumping up this stupid shaft, and I haven't even had to backtrack anywhere yet.

It is a seriously awful introduction to the game and there is really no defending it.

>>5728958
"Dumbed-down" implies intelligent bits were removed. There was nothing intelligent about Metroid's design and/or gameplay, but please elaborate on how Super Metroid "dumbed down" Metroid, because I'm eager to hear it.

>>5728963
>It took me 60 seconds to make it to the first doorway, then another 40 seconds to make it to the top of the shaft. More than 50% of the time in my first 5 minutes of play was spent jumping up this stupid shaft,
So it's the game's fault you're slow?
>>5728969
Super actually uses tiles to tell you what power-ups will be useful later instead of letting you figure it out for yourself.

>>5728987
I probably went faster than is typical for a new player and ignores the fact that you are going to backtrack up that shaft (and the brown one adjacent to it) multiple fucking times in the first 30 minutes you play the game. And that's even if you know where everything is that you need.

>>5728995
Why do you are so much about what a new player thinks? That's not the standard by which you judge a game's quality.

>Complaining about areas in Metroid being copy-pasted
Metroid was originally an FDS game, so it couldn't take advantage of more advanced MMC chips. Even if you discount that, copy-pasted areas in Metroid are DELIBERATELY copy-pasted because the entire point of the world is that it's supposed to be disorienting and confusing. If you pay close attention to the map, you notice that rooms start out looking similar before changing the further you go in, this is done to make you feel like a rat in a maze.

Metroid is an example of the developers wringing absolutely everything they could out of the limited storage space and resources available. It's a masterclass of game design.

>>5728847
>No more than any other transitional section in the game.
"ALL of the transitional areas in the game are obnoxious, so that makes it not obnoxious!"

>>5728997
>You can't judge the game by its accessibility
Simply Eric

>>5729007
all this coping rationalization
just accept that this part of the game is an obvious weak point and move on.
good lord.
No. It's not some kind of rat in a maze bullshit. It's a game that didn't quite reach it's potential due to various reasons including hardware limitations.
>>5728997
>Why do you are so much about what a new player thinks? That's not the standard by which you judge a game's quality.
It's an important part. apparently you are too buttfucking retarded to have anything but a binary opinion on the game as a whole and must vigorously attack even modest criticism because you can't understand it as anything but a criticism of the entire game.

>>5728502
You know what I'm first person to defend punishment in games and I'll shit on zoomers all day who cry about game overs, but farming health in Metroid is needless tedium. Everything has a limit this kind of punishment for failure is over the line. In other games you go back to a certain point and you actually have to replay your progress, here you're just sitting there pressing shoot over and over again, it's just bad game design.

>>5728943
There is some truth to this. Everyone old enough to remember Metroid in its prime remembers that Metroid2 was the hot game on the playground

>>5728787
What about Super Pitfall tho

>>5729302
not him, but that was b-grade shovelware. I owned that game on cartridge as a kid and none of the other kids had heard about it or had any interest in playing such a shitty, directionless game

>>5729069
It's not worth it, man. Dude is obviously autistic and has latched his ego/self-worth onto his opinions of the game. It's impossible to have a discussion at this point because he will take any amount of criticism as an egregious offense and personal attack and feel the need to refute every point you make at any cost to defend his honor. Just ignore him and move on, anyone with sense agrees that Metroid 1 has plenty of flaws but he'll never ever see it because he's too blinded by personal pride in a fucking children's toy.

>>5729094
>it's just bad game design.
Not when you're trying to make a game last longer using such limited technology and significantly smaller studios. They made these games as long and difficult as possible because they didn't want kids renting them, beating them in a weekend, and then returning them without actually purchasing the game

Metroid is hard bros. I played it and found an elevator, but then I got lost. I restarted and tried making a map, but I got confused and messed it up. Feels bad man.

>>5729318
>they did the best they could
well OK I might amend my language to "unfortunately flawed level layout" instead of calling out the design specifically, but generally this kind of criticism tends to fall under the umbrella of "game design" no matter the excuses are.

>>5729698
Get a hack that adds an automap. It makes the game 10x more enjoyable.

>>5728250
>no continue system
Don't talk out your ass about things you know nothing about

>>5729047
>obnoxious
No, you're just a scrub.

>>5730123
I will try that out. Thanks anon.

>>5728514
All it does is cause the player to drop the game like a hot turd.
Boredom and frustration are not fear and suspense.

>>5730232
Oh. Thanks for the correction.

>>5728667
Stop white knighting for samus, she isn't going to show you her tits.

>>5730260
>vertical segments in Metroid are hard
The only time anyone even takes damage in those sections is on the 5th time they've had to backtrack through it and are getting lazy and careless and don't give a shit.

That actually goes for a lot of this game. Much of the difficulty comes from trying to not get so bored that you stop giving a shit about getting hit.

>>5730292
Sure, if the player is a modern surrender monkey with bad taste.

>>5730384
>owned
Kraid's lair is full of small rooms full of enemies that move faster than the player. It's where I quit the first time.

>>5730123
>Get a hack that adds an automap. It makes the game 10x more enjoyable if you're a retard like me.

>>5729317
Zoomer mentality refined into one poignant paragraph. The reason that the medium turned into patronizing mindnumbing soulless shit.

>>5728943
Metroid is the best game in the series, with II and Super being decent follow-ups, after which the 2D series fell off a cliff.

METROID IS FLAWLESS FUCKING ZOOMERS
CASUAL CASUIALA CASYAL ACSUALSJ

>>5730410
>mindnumbing
That's an accurate description of NES Metroid.

>>5730435
You're evolving. And all it took was a mental breakdown.

You total utter homo.

only retards think the first metroid is the best.

>metroid is too hard
said nobody ever

It's prehistoric and shitty.
>no map
>fucking passwords in a game of this scale instead of a save battery
>copypasted rooms with the exact same enemies in the same places

It's not like Zero Mission is any better though.
>more linear
>hint handholding statues everywhere
>difficulty so low that it makes super metroid seem tough
>gba music is horrendous
>questionable artstyle
>night sky and stars are gone

>>5730460
what you mean to say is that everyone who's not a ritalin baby with the dexterity of an armless grandma and the IQ of a beta chimp knows that the first metroid is the best.

>>5728045
>Why is the password so long?!
WHY DON'T THE WEA
PONS
DO ANYTHIIING

>>5730478
>>Why is the password so long?!
>WHY DON'T THE WEA
>PONS
>DO ANYTHIIING
cant crawl no map and password so long. werst game ever!

except low iq monkeys love the first metroid. they defend copy pasted platforms.

AGATGAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHA FUCK ZOMERS REEEEEEEEEEEEEEGESAN3NAQ5N23QN5 FIRST METROID GODDDDDDDDDDDAAAAAA

>>5729069
>>5729317
>Everyone who doesn't bow to my myopic and ill-thiught criticisms is clearly autistic and must be psychoanalized
Or maybw you're just a basic bitch trying to find fault in a classic game for not having the easy mode options of modern games. Go back to playing cuckhead.

BACK TO KEKHEAD AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHSRRSRSSSSSSSSSSSSSHSHFDEDDHS

>>5730550
Seethe and dilate.

>>5730547
accurate analysis.

>>5730396
The human brain is a CPU, not a hard drive. It's made for problem solving and data analysis, not memorizing miles of copy/pasted hallways.

ITS THE OLDEST THAT MEANS ITS THE BEST GAME

>>5730592
Yet somehow I made it through just fine. Geek Squad must have installed a hard drive while I was sleeping.

A map destroys much of what makes the game an interesting challenge. At some points it gives you the impression that you might not make it, and some people won't make it; when you have a map the entire process begins to feel inevitable--check map, see that it's obvious where it must extend, note where it is, walk for a minute, check map, walk, check map, repeat until dot is inside correct room on map. It's a much different experience, and a much less satisfying one. How do people navigate hedge mazes without a map, much less a digital one on their phones that also tracks their current location within the maze?

Modern players approach game design analysis almost like you would with productivity software. They think that good game design is that which helps them to complete a task most efficiently with the least possible frustration. There's nothing innately good about finishing a game--it's not a project that you're paid for, and it's not something that leaves you with a tangible finished product. The point of a game is entirely in the experience of playing. Frustration caused by mild setbacks and challenges comes from bad genetics/environment, and from treating game mechanics primarily as utilitarian tools to reach the end as quickly and/or thoroughly as possible.

>>5730645
>The point of a game is entirely in the experience of playing. Frustration caused by mild setbacks and challenges comes from bad genetics/environment, and from treating game mechanics primarily as utilitarian tools to reach the end as quickly and/or thoroughly as possible.
Check out the big brain on anon

Metroid II and Super are better games.

>>5730416
>Metroid is the best game in the series
Literally what >>5730593 said, you are out of your goddamn mind if you think Metroid is the best. There's literally NO justification for it, no arguments, only "the latter games are dumbed down" and yet every single "dumbing down" only made the game better, e.g. adding an automap because there's nothing fun about mapping Metroid's awful map as opposed to something like Wizardry.

>>5730668
Except this guy already explained why M1 was good.>>5730645
The best you can manage is feeble genre comparisons. Of course Metroid and Wizardry will have different maps.

>>5728045
>Things faggot babies say about old games
Things faggot babies say about old games

>>5730668
Ironically, Super Metroid has far less need for a map than Metroid 1 because they actually do a good job of making the rooms feel memorable.

>>5728045
Why doesn't Sonic move fast enough! Why do I have to do all this platforming, I just want to go fast!

Why are Mario's jumps so floaty?

The Lost Levels was designed by masochists!

Battletoads is a bad game because I'm a pussyboi faggot.

>>5730645
>when you have a map the entire process begins to feel inevitable--check map, see that it's obvious where it must extend, note where it is, walk for a minute, check map, walk, check map, repeat until dot is inside correct room on map.
No, it's more like it just replaces the need to draw out a map on paper, which is a dull experience anyway. It's not about guiding exploration so you just try to get the dot to the right square, it's just about having something that keeps track of where you've been. It's literally no different than just drawing a map out on graph paper except that it's not as tedious.

>>5728045
Shut up, boomerfag.

>>5731329
>No, it's more like it just replaces the need to draw out a map on paper, which is a dull experience anyway.
Why would you draw a map out on paper? I agree, that would be dull experience.

>>5731325
but unfortunately it does have a map, which for you is a godsend i'm sure

>>5728732
Woah dude, this was supposed to be a hipster circlejerk thread where we pretend to like extremely outdated gamedesign.

>>5730645
>Frustration caused by mild setbacks and challenges comes from bad genetics/environment
Frustration with a game does not equate to "bad genetics/environment". If you agree a dog can't complete a game, that doesn't make him have "bad genetics", some humans also can't comfortably do some things, that doesn't mean they have "bad genes/environment". All plants and animals are adapted for living in a particular way, being good at videogames hardly boosts survival.

>>5728045
>Why is the password so long?!
I'm sorry, are you unironically arguing that long passwords are meant to be part of the game difficulty rather than a cost-saving measure used instead of a a battery save? When the letters/numbers look indistinguishable, is that also "classic difficulty that today's zoomers just can't handle"?

>>5731336
>Why would you draw a map out on paper?
Most Metroid hipster/purists I talk to say that drawing a map by hand is part of the experience. And really, it's a necessity if you want to keep track of where you've been without just wandering aimlessly in circles forever. Obviously this isn't as much the case when you've beaten the game several times and memorized the map, but otherwise it's just a futile exercise to try to memorize the map as you go.

>>5730710
>Except this guy already explained why M1 was good.
But he didn't. All he talked about was "it didn't have a map" and he explained why he thought was a good idea. When in reality the need to draw out Metroid's map is stupid because that's not what the game is about. In a game like Wizardry, that's ALL the game is about: getting to the end of a labyrinthian dungeon with a whole lots of traps and tricks.

Metroid's map is dull, and like >>5731325 said
>Ironically, Super Metroid has far less need for a map than Metroid 1 because they actually do a good job of making the rooms feel memorable.
There's no challenge in drawing a map such as Metroid. What IS challenging is drawing a map of Wizardry, because the game pulls real nasty tricks on you to make an otherwise braindead task require far more brainpower.

What brainpower does Metroid mapmaking require? None. And so it was rightfully replaced with an automap.

>>5731408
>Most Metroid hipster/purists I talk to say that drawing a map by hand is part of the experience.
Yeah, I always heard this too. Then I played it myself and realized they're dead wrong after trying to map my progress for the first 10 minutes. I'd hate the game if I had to play like that, but doing it in my head was so good.

>>5731531
You only think there's no challenge because you're out of your depth. Wizardry is designed to challenge you to get to the end. Metroid is designed to force you to recontextualize the map with every new power/clue.

>>5732786
>Metroid is designed to force you to recontextualize the map with every new power/clue.
What does that have to do with the automap? It's not like it would tell you "hey, you can use a new power here!", which would be a legitimate complaint (as it spoonfeeds players where to use their new abilities).

>>5732828
No, but it'll tell you how to get there instead of forcing you to remember and find your way back. You want certain aspects of the game to be easier; everyone who's advocating for an automap, and everything else their fragile little minds year for, in some way or another just wants the game to be easier. Why is it that none of these milquetoast slow-brains ever wish for features that make classics like these harder? "I just think these features would make the game better!" Okay, yet somehow they're always features that just coincidentally would make every game easier. It's embarrassingly pathetic, and they almost brag about it under the guise of being enlightened prophets for *good game design.

*modernized banal garbage designed for literally everyone to be able to succeed.

>>5732929
Not everyone finds it fun to try to memorize 50 copy/pasted corridors and their positions relative to each other. I don't think there's anything wrong with a simple automap as long as it doesn't give away things (like making a room with a secret breakable block have a missing wall on the map to indicate you can break through that spot). The ideal automap would basically just be a simplified screenshot of each screen linked together as-is. It's just nice to have a reference of where you've been. The only difference between analyzing a map of locations you've visited or walking to each place to analyze the locations in person is the extra time it takes to walk there. It's not harder or easier, it's just more time-consuming for no good reason.

>>5732946
>Not everyone finds it fun to try to memorize 50 copy/pasted corridors and their positions relative to each other.

But *I* find it fun, and that's what's truly important. Anyone who doesn't is a subhuman dolt who betrays the survival of the fittest and thus weakens humanity as a whole.

>>5732986
Hear hear.

>>5732986
>But *I* find it fun, and that's what's truly important.
Autism

>>5732986
Anyone who uses the word dolt is a literal faggot and has no business talking about survival of the fittest because you literally can't produce offspring by sticking your dick in a guys butt.

>>5732946
You keep contradicting yourself. You claim Metroid's map has no substance, and then you complain about getting lost. Which is it? It was designed to confuse the player, and it succeeded.

>>5733330
Causing confusion is bad game design.

>>5733378
Not when the game itself is a maze.

>>5733378
Being a confused zoomer is bad design

>>5728847
bitch, this is enemy and platform placement variety
I'm not even talking about the changing graphics, each section is as distinct as Super Mario Bros's levels
Metroid's vertical sections are almost copy and paste from eachother, and blend together like the Munster stage from Bart Vs. The World
(Also Kid Icarus came out 4 months after Metroid, so don't give me any "muh better grasp of how to code for the NES" bullshit)

>>5733465
almost copy-paste my ass (save that one ripper)

>>5733465
>Both have platforms.
>therefore they are the same game.

>>5733486
>>5733486
While it is not the same game (Kid Icarus's vertical levels only go up; going down will eventually result in you being killed by the bottom of the screen, so the platforms are only designed for going up), they still show that Nintendo could do vertical levels without being monotonous and repetitive as fuck.
Also the Dungeons are quite Metroidesque, but that's a given

>>5733330
>You claim Metroid's map has no substance, and then you complain about getting lost.
It's easy to get lost BECAUSE the map has no substance. The game is full of literally copy/pasted corridors and rooms, down to the enemy placement. If it's actually designed to confuse the player, then bravo, they've accomplished that in the laziest way possible and it sucks.

>>5733607
What are interesting ways to confuse players through level design?

>>5733610
You could make rooms with similar layouts, but not actual copy/paste jobs. Make them similar enough that someone who isn't paying attention might get lost, but add some distinctive features that someone with a keen eye would start to recognize. Have two rooms that seem identical but have different numbers of enemies, swap around some block placements, add a stalactite somewhere, make one platform in a shaft a little different from the others, stuff like that. Then instead of just confusing everyone because the rooms are identical, you reward the observant players who notice these small discrepancies and they can learn to navigate the world using these small clues and landmarks in the environment.

>>5733627
>You could make rooms with similar layouts, but not actual copy/paste jobs.
So Metroid?

>>5733517
There's as much variation here as there is in Metroid.

>>5733636
>Have two rooms that seem identical but have different numbers of enemies, swap around some block placements, add a stalactite somewhere...
That would imply that the rooms have the same palette and would be two separate rooms.

>>5733627

>>5733638
no it ain't
(at least the vertical sections, I haven't looked at the horizontal ones to see how repetitive they get)

>>5733663
>posting several rooms vs. one room

>>5733714
These are single rooms taken from the game?

>>5733720
In Kid Icarus you're constantly moving upward. The shafts fro Metroid are meant to be transitional. You're ignoring the respective design intentions for each game.

>>5733731
I understand that >>5733517
The problem is when you get stuff like that long stretch of repetition at the bottom.
Plus a lot of the doors in Kid Icarus are analogous to the doors in Metroid (both on the edge of the screen, and if you could go downward in Kid Icarus it probably wouldn't change much (Like the Melee implementation of Ice Climber's levels in their respective Target Test)

>>5733731
>The shafts fro Metroid are meant to be transitional.
that makes them even worse in Metroid.
Not only do you have to go up a copy/pasted shaft, you have backtrack through the copy/pasted shaft multiple times even before you consider deaths.

>>5733989
dont be such a zoomer faggot and just get good

>>5734271
You should learn to make better posts.
Nobody complained about the difficulty.

Metroid 1 would benefit with an in-game automap like pic related. Just gives you a rough idea of what the parts of the map are and where you've been. Not Super Metroid or Fusion-style that gives away paths or gives too much information, just a basic miniature representation of the actual rooms so you can get your bearings.

>>5734451
>awful auto map
>magic sword at six hearts
What is this, Zelda 1 for Aonumas?

>>5728495
no ONE read your post you faggot.

>>5728834
Do you also bitch about Mario jumping and running right for 08 worlds?

faggot

>>5728934
>Metroid fans
>not fans of Metroid

lel, what the fuck you smoking mein neger?

>>5733751
They're corridors, nigger. They're there to give the player a breather and mentally retrace their steps before exploring again.

>>5728943
Super Metroid is better, but to say Metroid is 'garbage' is just you trying to be a contrarian faggot to strangers on the internet.

The passwords are negligible because that was just an American compromise to get the game on a cartridge, but the rest is part of a legitimate challenge.

>>5735313
>Metroid (series) fans
>Not fans of Metroid (NES)
It's more likely than you might think. Hell, I'm one of them.

>>5736160
hell

>>5735312
if you can't tell the difference between doing mario levels and mind-numbing shaft climbing in Metroid you are even dumber than I thought, and I already thought you were dumb.

And Super Mario Brothers does have a couple of levels that are copy/pasted with just more/different enemies and smaller platforms (I think there's one water level that's just a flat-out copy with no changes). Those levels are rightly criticized, although at least they are good levels unlike the boring Metroid crap.

>>5735336
>to say Metroid is 'garbage'
At this point,in this thread, defenders of NES Metroid should not expect reasoned and moderate arguments. There have already been plenty and the only responses have been shit like "git gud" even when the criticism does involved difficulty of any measure.

>>5728562
>>5728573
Can we just agree that the unconditional starting health of 30 is due to lazy/incompetent coding during the infancy of video games, and not some thought out design feature to immerse the player into survival horror?

Because seriously, farming 400 HP after dying to Kraid will make you put down this game real quickly.

>>5728584
You eventually get OP in Super Metroid. Game needs to cut energy tanks in half (or double enemy damage) and ditch reserve tanks.

>>5736207
>even when the criticism does involved difficulty of any measure.
You kept bitching about the mean old hallways taking too long. You should get good.

>>5736364

>>5735336
Do you prefer "bad and not worth playing"? Because anyone playing Metroid nowadays is either doing it
1. Out of nostalgia.
2. For historical reasons.
3. Because they are crazy.

>>5736376
Nice self-portrait, but what does it have to do with anything?

>>5736456
there is nothing hard about the shit content in Metroid.

>>5736326
>You eventually get OP in Super Metroid.
Only if you find a lot of items. It's the reward for exploring and finding secrets. The idea is that they don't want you to just roll over and die if you don't find all the energy tanks, so compromises have to be made. The price of freedom in a game like Metroid is that the game can't be designed with the assumption that every player will find every item.

>>5737092
You can do one of two things better than what Super Metroid actually did:

> Make the game so hard that it makes a player say 'gee, maybe I should go look for some energy tanks before reattempting this area.'

> Make the game have fewer energy tanks so there isn't such a choice to even make about the difficulty.

>>5728045
>game mechanics was made in a different era for different sensibilities
hurr durr this game didnt age well

>>5737565
I mean, considering that QoL changes in sequels almost always happen, yes, devs don't make games clunky or have features that don't perform as one would expect on purpose, they simply didn't do better at the time due to one reason or another.

>>5737565
Yes, the definition of a game not aging well is that it doesn't hold up to modern sensibilities when played/scrutinized by modern players. Some games are more timeless than others, like Tetris or Super Mario Bros. Some games don't hold up well by comparison in the face of quality of life improvements that made similar games more accessible, like Metroid.

>>5737750
>>5737779
>Quality of life
You mean trivial features that have no bearing on the gameplay other than to coddle casuals? The "modern player" is an idiot who demands constant achievements.

>>5737750
>>5737779
>Quality of life
So that basedfag from MLIG used this word and now all of you have to as well?

>>5737797
>You mean trivial features that have no bearing on the gameplay other than to coddle casuals?
In the case of Metroid 1? Stuff like automaps, starting with full health, crouching, and aiming diagonally. Call it whatever judgmental insult you like, they're improvements that can be hard to move backward from.

>>5737805
Quality of life improvements have been a concept in games and software for decades, anon. It describes features that remove busywork or tedium from a process.

>>5737779
That's the definition of pleb tastes built on modern biases. The metroid life refilling concept was a tedious mechanic even back in the day, and a big reason a lot of people liked the game without ever taking the time to actually play through it.

Modern gamers don't have a monopoly on what is palatable game design, in fact they are the least qualified to make those judgements with these least exposure to different games. There is no such thing as games aging, it's a forced meme.

>>5737878
>Stuff like automaps, starting with full health,
These only exist to coddle the player.
>crouching, and aiming diagonally.
The game wasn't designed with these mechanics in mind, so they aren't necessary.

>>5737878
Don't you get it anon? If a player dies they deserve to farm 6 energy tanks before they're allowd to attempt the challenge again!

>>5737878
>Quality of life improvements have been a concept in games and software for decades, anon. It describes features that remove busywork or tedium from a process.
Games as productivity software, captures the spirit of modern game design and mainstream tastes in one sentence.

>>5737886
>That's the definition of pleb tastes built on modern biases.
All games are judged with modern biases. We just had different biases in the 80's than we do now. The games that are able to transcend those changing biases are the ones that have aged well, and it's a sliding scale depending on how well it "holds up."
>The metroid life refilling concept was a tedious mechanic even back in the day
I agree, but there are actually people ITT actively defending it and saying the game would be worse if you started each session with full health, which rightfully generates some pushback and that's when people start talking about games aging.
>Modern gamers don't have a monopoly on what is palatable game design
Sure, but when we discuss older games in a modern context it is perfectly valid to compare them to modern games and how their differences are good or bad.

>>5737887
>These only exist to coddle the player.
They exist to not waste the player's time. There is no fun or challenge in standing next to an enemy spawn for 10 minutes farming health. You can draw a map on graph paper IRL, or the game can just go ahead and do it for you and save you time; giving you information you have already seen before is not a problem at all.
>The game wasn't designed with these mechanics in mind, so they aren't necessary.
The number of diagonally-moving and knee-height enemies says otherwise. How often do you have to kill enemies by jumping above them and shooting down? Crouching is so useful they added it to the very next game. Is Metroid 1 playable without crouching? Yes. Would it be vastly improved by crouching? Also yes. Hence, quality of life.

>>5737916
>All games are judged with modern biases. We just had different biases in the 80's than we do now. The games that are able to transcend those changing biases are the ones that have aged well, and it's a sliding scale depending on how well it "holds up."
The games that were great when they were made are the ones that have aged well. The games that were mostly praised for their technological prowess haven't. It has nothing to do with modern biases, as the opinion of anyone who's taken on the typical modern taste says nothing about quality and everything about personal failure and ineptitude.

>>5737779
>Yes, the definition of a game not aging well is that it doesn't hold up to modern sensibilities when played/scrutinized by modern players.
No, not "modern sensibilities" but rather "the best timeless wisdom available." You have to assume that the current popular sensibilities are clouded by fashion. They always are. Especially true of the kids playing games and many(most) of the developers making them.

But that doesn't mean games don't age. Games like Metroid fail (at least partially) when scrutinized using reasonably timeless standards. Traits present in Metroid don't hold up with advances in technology (eg 8-button gamepads) and advances in understanding what exploration games are like to play and what features tend to not work very well with the format.

That doesn't mean that sequels like Super Metroid don't have their own flaws and that the NES Metroid might have some timeless value, but many of the big flaws in Metroid aren't just contrary to "Modern Sensibilities" they are just mistakes or flaws that players at the time tolerated or forgave because it was a novel, innovative game.

To recap:
>Games don't age
Wrong. Autists too stupid to understand the idiom don't bother to reply.
>Any game that doesn't meet current fashionable criteria is dated.
Also wrong

>>5737916
>All games are judged with modern biases.
>We just had different biases in the 80's than we do now.
Discipline and careful practice of objective methods, reasoning, and argument can help minimize those biases.
Yeah sure popular opinion might be as biased as ever but that doesn't mean that YOU have to be lazy and biased.

>>5737958
>Traits present in Metroid don't hold up with advances in technology (eg 8-button gamepads)
So use an Advantage controller. Or a Xbox controller with an emulator. Works just fine.
>and advances in understanding what exploration games are like to play and what features tend to not work very well with the format.
Like what? Telling the player where you're next objective is?

>>5737916
>The number of diagonally-moving and knee-height enemies says otherwise
You're supposed to dodge those. You don't have to shoot every enemy. Some are just obstacles.

>>5738306
>So use an Advantage controller. Or a Xbox controller with an emulator. Works just fine.
But it doesn't USE the diagonals, dummy.

>>5738731
I can move diagonally just fine.

>>5738831
Uh... what?

>>5739014
Exactly what I said. I can move diagonally in Metroid using an Xbox controller with my emulator.

>>5739912
Are you trying to be cheeky and consider jumping forward "diagonal movement"? And are you disregarding the fact that the actual complaint was diagonal aiming?

>>5739925
You never mentioned aiming. And I've been playing the game without the need for diagonal aiming just fine for years.

>>5739953
This is the post that brought diagonals into the discussion: >>5737878
>Stuff like automaps, starting with full health, crouching, and aiming diagonally.
>aiming diagonally
Yes, it was explicitly mentioned while moving diagonally was not.

>>5740324
The post I was responding to made no mention of diagonal firing, only "diagonals".

>defending passwords

>>5740534
The Passwords were annoying, but not a deterrent from playing the game and nowhere near as bad as people pretend.

>>5728045
Metroid isn't hard, it's tedious. Respawning with 30 health doesn't make you fear death, it makes you hate it. Lacking save points and having to respawn at the start of every area is what makes death punishing enough. Also the level design is absolute stinking garbage in this game, bland and repetitive when it isn't simply copypasting.

Metroid II was a much better game.

>>5740852
>Respawning with 30 health doesn't make you fear death, it makes you hate it.
So people who hate Metroid hate challenge? Got it.

>>5740858
there's no challenge in farming pickups

>>5740861
>farming
There's that word again. If you get good enough you can pick up health quite easily on the go.

>>5740863
If you "git gud" the game has nothing left to offer you. Enemy design, level design, and world design are so basic that once you know where you're going the game has no tricks up its sleeve any more, and there's pretty much nothing that can kill you. The only thing the original Metroid has to create any engagement is the gimmick of being a disorienting maze, and that fades fast.
This is unlike later Metroid games where you still have good level design and enemy-focused challenges to enjoy even after you are familiar with the layout of the maze.

>>5740852
Waahhhhhhhh I HATE dying! Bad game design! Hmph!

>>5740502
Well then read the thread before jumping in like an idiot next time.

>>5738306
>So use an Advantage controller. Or a Xbox controller with an emulator. Works just fine.
Jesus Christ do I have to spell everything out like you have an IQ of 5? Or are you a fag hardware collecter who hasn't actually played the game and are just trolling?

In order to drop a bomb in Metroid, you have to switch to roll mode. This is a clever solution to the limitations of the NES game pad but it's utterly retarded if you have a game pad with an unused action button available. It's also not like there's some obvious balance reason here either. The limitation of only dropping bombs while rolling does not add any depth or challenge to the game it's just a hassle that wouldn't be there if the game had been made even one generation later.

Plugging in a different controller doesn't fix the design of the game.

>Like what? Telling the player where you're next objective is?
No. I mean shit like:
- Health Farming
- Enemy placement and respawn rules
- Level design

>>5741271
That's such an odd thing to complain about. The mechanics of bombing are connected to the morph ball. The reason to use the bomb is to open passages you can morph through, or to give you more mobility while morphed. I've never been in a situation where I was annoyed by having to morph before bombing.
AM2R's instamorph would be conceivably more useful, but I didn't even use that feature myself.

>>5736204
>(I think there's one water level that's just a flat-out copy with no changes)
There's only two ater levels in the gaame. They have the same map, but the second adds more enemies.

if only a hack with minimap and battery save existed
oh wait it does and it's calld metroid mOTHER

>>5741541
Alternative title is Metroid: The One For When Your Brain Don't Work So Good.

>>5740852
>Metroid isn't hard, it's tedious
This. Cuphead is hard(er than Metroid, at least), but it isn't tedious at all.
>>5740935
Based Metroid retard.

>>5741552
>Cuphead is hard(er than Metroid, at least)
Disagree.

Metroid was amazing when it originally game out. You could get sucked into it for hours just running around exploring.
They didnt make games easy back then because if it was, you'd beat it in 2 hours. Who wants to spend 50 dollars on that?

>>5728078
>not easily memorizing what each character in the pw does, what stats they change, etc.

zoomer

>>5741650
>larping and projecting

>>5741176
Why don't you be more specific, faggot?

>>5741552
>This. Cuphead is hard
BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Cuphead is all boss rushes with easy patterns that can be beaten in a few minutes. It's like SUper Meat Boy, another game with short levels and superficial challenge that makes casuals feel like big boys for beating it.
> but it isn't tedious at all.
Cuphead's bosses are tedious as hell.

>>5730645
>Frustration caused by mild setbacks and challenges comes from bad genetics/environment
You're taking videogames way too seriously son.

>>5742459
>can be beaten in a few minutes
>tedious as hell
>"too long, slow, or dull; tiresome or monotonous."
Cuphead is only tedious if you are unable to progress through the game. And yeah, Cuphead is far harder than Metroid. Like that other anon said, Metroid is not hard, it's just tedious, mind-numbingly dull.

>>5742553
Cuphead is a boss rush baby game with some lackluster run-n-gun levels tacked on at the last minute. You can beat it in an hour and have no reason to play it again. When a pleb like Yahtzee likes it, it's not a good game.

>>5742452
>establish topic
>begin discussing topic
>use contextual terms that everyone in the discussion will understand
>some faggot busts in without reading the previous posts and spouts bullshit
>somehow it's the fault of the people who were there first

>>5742708
I just red the entire conversation and diagonal aiming didn't come up once.

>>5742708
I just read the entire conversation and diagonal aiming didn't come up once.

>>5742489
>Yo, bruh; chill, senpai. C'mon, son.