/vr/ - Retro Games

>He doesn't want to become a mushroom
Point at the OP and laugh everyone

What's your favorite MorganTV channel?

>>5691829
Whichever one streams Giantess porn 24/7.

>>5691829
>>5691897
Morgan is capitalism done right, but then again it's all unreal utopia shit anyway.
>>5691698
>Religious wankers are ever right.
They're both bad. NOT fine people at all. *tipping maximus*

>>5691698
>>>/pol/

>>5692169
what

>>5691698
Miriam, next to Lal, was ironically probably one of the more lax rulers in the game. A religious stance can be shaped into any number of paths (With the exception of scientific progress in the context of the game). Beyond that, the implicit shape Miriam's society takes is most likely based off of moralistic Christian teachings (Being that she was part of the Fundemental States of America, a protestant or non-denominational Christian sect or alliance controlling large sections of the US), meaning that while there's likely to be somewhat strict laws regarding social policies, there's also likely to be ones defending the sanctity of life for the masses as well, which is something that isn't a granted across all leaders.

Right out of the gate, it can be assumed The Believers aren't as indifferent to human life and suffering as Yang would be, and judging by some of the stuff The University gets into, likely better for the common man as well. Morgan's empire is entirely built upon the backs of the masses, while it can mostly be assumed that some form of social welfare is likely to exist within Miriam's structure due to the nature of her society. And unlike The Spartans, military service isn't compulsionary, nor does your rank determine your place in society.

One could make a strong argument that The Believers somewhat parallel The Gaians with the only difference being their object of reverence. The Believers worship their God and take a strong stance towards his followers, resulting in sort of a de facto "humans first" line of thought, where the Gaians instead revere nature over even their own lives, striving to be ever closer in communion with Planet. In that regard, both are likely to fairly treat their citizens so long as their laws are followed.

Lal remains the only one really interested in express human rights though, with that being his forefront agenda rather than having some other goal.

>>5691897
fuckin' based

>>5691723

>>5693295

I'm interested in playing this now after reading this

can you or someone give me a rundown of each factions philosophy and why each is both right and wrong

>>5691698
How can one person be so wrong, jesus christ

>>5693546
Sure, I'll give it a go. I'm sure other will chime in with their own opinions because that's exactly what they are, every faction's interpretations aren't absolute and like you said, come with rights and wrongs.

The Believers I detailed a bit above, but they're a super religious faction that sees Planet as the promised land to use as they see fit. The most harsh interpretations paint them as bible thumping luddites and zealots, the best light is a highly united and relatively less utilitarian and more moralistic faction. The truth is somewhere inbetween, as they're capable of both. Generally, Miriam preaches caution when it comes to new technology due to its ability to cause mass upheaval within society rather than outright rejection, which is understandable when you're getting into retroviral engineering and other doomsday weapons.

Diedre is mostly centered around the environmentalist movement as it was during the 80s and 90s. Her chief aim is to live in harmony with the Planet, humans and nature coexisting without one fighting the other. To that end, humans are mostly viewed in her eyes as part of that ecosystem and seeks to curb destructive industry and development. Her flaws aren't initially apparent beyond the fact that those under her rule would be lacking in production capabilities and certain comforts, and even then the notion of her "flaws" is really up to the player to decide. Throughout the course of the game, she continues to entwine her followers within Planet, which is discovered to be an sentient entity and the lifeforms that inhabit it all part of a larger hivemind. Her endgoal gradually becomes to transcend our human state and become one with the Planet, to which culminates in the Ascension victory type. What exactly happens when humans and Planet become one is never really explained, other than we'll now be spared its apocalyptic wrath that would see us cleansed off its surface.

>>5693859
Yang is on his face a despot, but one that embodies Confucian/Taoist principles. His goal is to make a society that functions as a singular entity, every citizen within having their place within. A lot of his imagery draws parallels with hiveminded animals such as ants, which is an apt comparison considering how through technology he will use or specialize the citizens in his nation. Most westerners will find him repulsive due to our fascination with liberty and freedom, even from the most staunch fascist, but in truth, everything he does is extremely utilitarian. All of his actions go towards improving the efficiency of the system, and even him and his leaders aren't exempt from his agenda. At his peak, he's establishing a society that's completely united in purpose, with all functions thereof aiming to ensure the survival of the group as a whole. At his nadir, he's a monstrous despot who has no empathy for his fellow man, exploiting them in any way he sees fit.

Morgan embodies capitalism and everything good and bad that entails. Moreover than anyone else, he ruthlessly pursues profit and wealth, as in his mind those things translate to everything else from security to power to happiness. I'd say he's one of the most familiar leaders for western players due to the US and Europe's intimacy with various concepts of capitalism and is pretty much that taken to its logical extreme. The society he builds will absolutely be the most wealthy and likely strongest industrial power on Planet, consequences be damned. This single minded pursuit comes at a cost to the environment and any citizen who lacks wealth might as well be a nonperson, one step above slavery, with the wealthy living in extreme opulence. However, due to the sheer wealth of the Morganites, even the most destitute among them enjoy some share of the profits in the form of entertainment and cheap consumer goods, if only to ensure they remain docile and compliant.

>>5691698
Shouldn't you be on /tg/?
We tend to discuss games here, especially the gameplay aspect of them. If you want to stirr some summerfaggotry bait with SMAC, /tg/ is the right place to do so.

Pro-tip: every single faction is flawed, which is their entire point. Some are more flawed than others. And you are failing for the "original position falacy", like every idiot ever trying to present this or that faction as superb.

>>5693867
The University is what happens when you hand the reigns of governance to a mad scientist. Scientific development becomes both the means and the end of society, with a privileged class of researchers, engineers, and other technocrats making any and all major decisions as the ruling body. The idea of the University is that through progress, they can overcome any challenge imposed on them and that every development will lead to a better and more fulfilling life for its people. As the story progresses though, you gain a glimpse into some of the inner workings of their system, one that will sometimes use various pariahs of their society as nothing more than lab rats to further their agenda. The greatest part of The University is the obvious rapid development they undergo, putting any other faction to shame baring an imbalance of player skill, while the worst is that there's no ethical compass to guide them in how to use said technology. Things get developed because they -can- happen, not because they have a purpose to serve the greater good.

The Spartans, a militaristic faction, seek to survive the challenges they face through strength of arms. In Spartan society, your class is determined by your military rank, of which almost all adults are a part of. The idea of the Spartans being that all other pursuits are secondary to actually living to see tomorrow, and beyond that guiding principle, everything else is secondary. This isn't a terrible line of thought, since rapid technological progress, vast wealth, efficient industries, or theological principles really won't make a difference if you're too dead to see them through, but at the same time, these very ideas are often a contributing function to one's survival.

>>5693639
It's the standard "Miriam did nothing wrong" bait.
I miss times when those were at least ironic. Now they tend to be served at face value.

>>5691723
I'd like to give Deidre my mushroom.

>>5693546
Or you can play the game and draw your own conclusions

>>5693859
>>5693867
>>5693871
>Being this wrong
>Writing a blog about it

>>5693871
On one hand, as long as you're fighting for the Spartans, there's not a whole lot more expected of you, on the other, being part of a military, even a very large and highly trained one, is still a danger most civilians probably don't want to face. No one can deny though, with all other things like tech and industry being equal, the Spartans are pound for pound the best equipped to ensure their linage makes it to the future over others.

Lastly, Lal's a diplomat and the original presiding bureaucrat over the entire mission. As such, his balanced nature means he mostly lacks the single minded agenda of any of the other six, and mostly seeks to bring order and cooperation to everyone through (usually) peaceful means and skilled diplomacy. He's probably one of the most familiar factions in the sense that he generally seeks to improve the social and economic life of his citizens through considering war only as a last resort and trying to uphold various individual rights. While that's great for the citizens internally, it does mean he tends to lag behind in the specialist areas of everyone else, never matching the wealth of the Morganites, the strength of the Spartans, the knowledge of the University, or the industrial capacity of the Hive. While he's generally great overall from the viewpoint of the citizens of each nation, he's also less capable in many respects and reliant on brokering deals with the other factions to get things done. His balanced stance does put him in a good position to befriend anyone though and convince them to bludgeon someone else over the head if they refuse to play nice.

>>5693873
Why do you think people have started to take it seriously now? Is it new people simply trying to stir shit, or is it perhaps people who originally played the games are now older and better able to empathize with a faction they don't like?

>>5693879
>hyhy lul ur wrong xD
quality discussion right here
>>>/v/

>>5693879
>Don't discuss retro games on a retro board!

>>5693873
>I miss times when those were at least ironic

Everything you are disagree with is ironic.

Miriam is a wholesome, charismatic leader. Diedre is a degenerate bestial whore who dances around trees and stuffs worms into her vagoo.

>>5694064
Okay jesusfag. Enjoy your mindworms.

>>5693546
That's also the expansion pak factions.
https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Factions_(SMAC)#Alien_Crossfire_factions

You can even play as AAAYYY aliens.

>>5693942
If you want to discuss SMAC's GAMEPLAY, there go to >>>5693305
If you want to discuss politics, >>>/pol/

>>5693981
No, back in the day (and by this I mean various forums in mid 00s) the various jabs about Lal being secretly an evil overlord and Miriam being the only sane person around was clear-cut joke.
Come alt-right and suddenly it's taken at face value.

>>5694586
>Throw together a bunch of bright eyed turbo nerds.
>Wonder why they exalt Zarkov and demonize Miriam.

>Years later, same nerds venture out into the world and gain some practical insights into other people and society as a whole.
>Suddenly don't find Miriam so bad.

Have you considered that the people who grew up discussing the game have simply matured to the point where they've moved away from their previous notions of utopian ideologies and towards a more distant and neutral posture? All of SMAC is essentially made up of leaders who took their ideas of the "right" course for society to their logical conclusion, consequences be damned, such that every leader eventually goes off the deep end beyond Lal. Miriam only gets a pass later on because she canonically died around midgame and thus her final line is accepting she and her followers are about to be completely massacred.

I remember talking about SMAC on various sites like Apolyton and CivFanatics, and prior to that, on smaller, no longer existing forums, and pretty much the sentiment among 80% of the userbase was that the University was the uncontested hero of the game and that everyone else at their best was misguided and at their worse pure evil for inhibiting the march of progress (Another small chunk really like Deirdre for being a more moderate stance at the time, treating her green policies in the same light as an eastern religion). To see people finally acknowledge the fact that the factions were intentionally written to be caricatures for their commentary on their philosophy rather than an absolute blueprint of how to run things more than a decade later was a great feeling, though there still does seem to be some holdouts clinging to their old habits.

>>5694627

Not the other guy, but I think Miriam gets flak because her AI is more aggressive.

>t. church going Christian who plays mainly Hive and Gaians

>>5694649
That's one thing I never liked about AC, ever AI is very aggressive and even when they're much weaker than you, still try to extort you and go to war even though it's a losing proposition. It's actually one of the things that moved me away from Civ as a series, diplomacy being so weak such that as soon as a faction has an advantage over another, things escalate into war.

Some other 4X games handle protectorates, vassals, spheres of influence, and diplomatic pressure as their own systems, so while it does make war a rarity, it also moves away from making it an inevitability.

>>5691698
Yang is the most interesting choice, and thus the one I always go with.

Though it is nice to start in the ocean as the pirates

>>5693859

thanks nice write up I have a good grasp now

>>5693873
They were only ironic until people started actually reading the lore and stopped reading too much into her aggressive AI.
>hey don't nerve staple people sciencefags
>hey don't feed people to mindrape worms envirofaggots

>>5694581
the POLICIES are a part of the GAMEPLAY, retard

>>5694627
>being this fucking dense

>>5694993
>people started actually reading the lore
>t. actually didn't the lore and pulls shit straight out of own ass
Miriam. Is. Just. As. Bad.
It's seriously tiresome how people pretend she's some sort of level-headed good guy. She's not. She's a fucking fundie doing the whole dark messiah/unfailable prophet shit, while being wrong left and right. In the end, you have a fundie redhead bitching about everyone having better toys than she has, so obviously, they are the corrupt ones. And who needs nerve-stampling when you can just indoctrinate people with religion, preferably at a gun point.

>>5695062
Policies - yes.
Politics - not.

>>5694993
>Bitches about dangers of grey goo
>Nothing comes from it
>Bitches about AI and playing god
>Nothing comes from it; AI is perfectly docile and eventually treated equally with human beings
>Bitches about the dangers of techno-police state
>While running theocracy
>Bitches about people treating Planet as anything else than just a place
>Literally the only chance of humanity's survival
>Bitches about people researching into very fabric of creation
>Nothing comes from it; too dense to understand it herself
>Bitches about teleportation as "soulless"
>In 2017+350
>Bitches about teleportation some more
>Gets her entire faction wiped out via fucked up teleporters
Wow, sounds like she's a retard firing moralistic bullshit into the dark and ultimately getting herself fucked by technology she or her people can comprehend

>>5695219
>Seriously comparing religion to nerve stapling.
>Especially when the vast majority of people who launched in each escape pod willingly chose their faction leader.
Next you'll tell me swaying people in debates is akin to brainwashing them (But only when it's with stuff you don't like.).

>>5695264
>Missing the point
>On purpose
>Ever

>>5695264
>Hey guys, listen to me, I've got a plan for this shit!
>Land on planet
>Yang explains his "plan"
The joys of free will and choice

>>5694064
Based

>>5695219
What do you think politics are?

>>5693869
Fuck off flatulen/tg/oyim

>>5693884

I think I can gestalt what each factions drawbacks are if they win, except for lal

I'm sure the writer meant for him to have disastrous flaws too but what are they?

is it stagnation? weakness?

>>5696823
Hypocrisy. Lal keeps some DNA of his dead wife around and is implied to having tried cloning her to basically create himself a feel good simulacrum of a person.
Otherwise his overall theme seems to be that he holds on really dearly to principles that clearly didn't work out so well on Earth, so he is the most likely of all the leaders to just turn the Planet into Earth 2.0.

>>5696837

ahhh, I get it now ty

has there ever been a game with better characters? No

>>5696837

I see how him being earth and it's problems 2.0 but how does cloning his dead wife make him a hypocrite? I see how it symbolically represents his attachment to earth principles which caused the exodus in the first place.

University is best faction. Fuck ass backwards christfags, envirofags, freemarketfags, insectfags, moralfags and cowadootyfags.

>>5696837
>Lal keeps some DNA of his dead wife around and is implied to having tried cloning her to basically create himself a feel good simulacrum of a person
>When niggers can't into poetry
Pottery

>>5694627
Ive only becum more of a centrist /moderate over the years, but i would still hate Lal and the United Nations. You don't make friends with cuntries who literally fund terrorism. I can never be THAT diplomatic.

>>5696876
>how does cloning his dead wife make him a hypocrite?
He poses as a person espousing stellar moral integrity but still would be tempted to clone his wife even though creating a tailor-made human clone for your own selfish purpose opens a whole bag of worms.

Aside from that typical Lal failings would be upholding the Charter as the highest of sanctities and, in some more uncharitable variants, be willing to go authoritarian over its enforcement, and his usual methods being buried under tons and tons of red tape.
>>5699861
His wife died aboard the Unity at the hands of Santiago's men, though, not sure what you're implying by that last line. Lal's "poetry" in that tech quote has double meaning that can be interpretted however you wish.

>>5700332
>His wife died aboard the Unity at the hands of Santiago's men, though, not sure what you're implying by that last line. Lal's "poetry" in that tech quote has double meaning that can be interpretted however you wish.
So not only you are pushing those terrible, terrible novels that make no fucking sense and were quickly declared "not canon" by everyone involved with the game, you basically state aloud that you can interpret shit whatever way you like, thus being able to stretch things for long enough until they fit whatever the fuck you want to suggest or imply.
Splendid way of burning through any sort of arguments and credibility, real nice of you.

>>5700332
So like the other anon said, you can't into poetry and are autistically literal-minded about everything. Nice to know.
It always baffles me what kind of mental gymnastics it takes from people to present Lal as the bad guy and how they never realise this stuff exists predominately in their heads and their desire to project something on the fictional character.
Pro-tip: SMAC is not "everyone is wrong". The game is morally ambigious, but it still remains a clear supporter of ecology and democracy, since it's a product of peak 90s and those were the hot issues back then: how great democracy is, how important it is to maintain freedom and how either we go green or we die out as a species. Along with those there is the big question if science should go efficient or follow morality, what morality even is, should freedom just mean cut-throat society and what about militarism and actively anti-democratic movements (remember, it's late 90s, Russia looks super-democratic back then, 9/11 didn't happend yet and strong, red China is at best a possible problem, not something that everyone already accepted as a thing). And all the factions are projections and exaggerations of world's politics from that era, too.
So when you willingly or unintentionally ignore that context and just forcefully try to present the vanilla character, the literal goodie-two-shoes of the game as some sort of corrupt, evil fuck, it just rings false.

>>5700379
But I never presented Lal as a corrupt, evil fuck and although you have a good point, you're twisting my point so that it's unrecognizable.
I obviously acknowledge Lal as the most obvious vanilla goody-two-shoes, but even *the game itself* makes it a point to say that
>Lal's method of governing has efficiency issues (represented by, gasp, -1 Efficiency)
>Lal has just as much ability to go ahead and push war with you for a myriad of reasons as any other AI, particularly if he has an advantage
>Lal will in fact antagonize you heavily if you're a Police State, and although it might be well-intentioned, he can still be a conqueror on ideological grounds
>and the game still is too rife with all sorts of symbolism to simply dismiss the idea of Lal's poetry being simple poetry
It's not that "everyone is wrong", merely that everyone is still flawed and I don't think the game's writing is necessarily richer if we assume Lal is some sort of infallible paladin.

I will be very happy to see where exactly the SMAC novels are declared "not canon" so that Pravin's wife has never existed, although I must admit I haven't read them and I apologise for going off of hearsay about characters from wikias and whatnot.

>>5699819

probably change your mind as you get vaporized for not wanting your kids to be science experiments that may or may not end in their horrific deaths

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iwqN3Ur-wP0

>>5691698

Whats your favorite secret project video?

Mine is The Ascetic Virtues

its incredibly sinister once you understand Yangs mind. Using a such a high concept truth in such a cynical manipulative way is terrifying and makes me want to immediately wipe his faction out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO_xh7xIabk

>>5700683
>Typical Backwater Fundie Propaganda
Remember kids - that clip is an infomercial running in Believers TV to keep them scared.

>>5700917
Either Aescetic Virtues OR Weather Paradigm. And I would be hard pressed to pick just one of the two.

>>5700482
>Lal's method of governing has efficiency issues (represented by, gasp, -1 Efficiency)
Which, compared with other factions, is a non-issue. Let's go for the classic "Miriam is just cautious with new tech" bullshit, shall we? So we have Lal with -1 Efficiency, because he has vast bureaucracy, right? Miriam has -2 fucking Research to represent how backward things are and in the same time the best researchers, University, have +2. Wow, it's almost as if that -1 to Efficiency, especially when compared with everything else, was nothing (and very similar to Yang's -1 Economy or Santiago's -1 Industry). A god-damn Planned has -2 Efficiency and - wait for it - DEMOCRACY (so a fuckload of bureaucracy if you think about it) has +2 Efficiency. You know, Lal's preferred choice, which COUNTERS his native penalty (unlike most policy choices other factions make, digging themselves deeper). Oh wow, such inefficient government, aka the only of the two factions that end up with positive Efficiency before hitting end game.
>Lal has just as much ability to go ahead and push war with you for a myriad of reasons as any other AI, particularly if he has an advantage
His AI is scripted to be least aggresssive of them all and the ONLY reason he's going to go on you is if you are running a Police State and are at his border. The only faction that can even consider running Police State is Yang. Wow, a literal peace-keeping force going against literal North Korea, such evil deed!
>Lal will in fact antagonize you heavily if you're a Police State, and although it might be well-intentioned, he can still be a conqueror on ideological grounds
Grasping at straws, aren't we?

>1/2

>>5701312
>and the game still is too rife with all sorts of symbolism to simply dismiss the idea of Lal's poetry being simple poetry
Only if you absolutely can't into poetry at all and read everything as literal, personal statement. There is a reason why children during their school years are taught how to read poetry. There is a reason why poetry is one of the ways to perform psych check for real, medical autism. And in case of Lal specifically, there is 1 (read: one) thing ever, a simple poem about cloning possibilities, that anyone could ever take as those "rife sybolism" that you want to see so hard.

tl;dr you are a fucking moron grasping at straws, just to stay in the bubble that "everyone is wrong". They are not. And like other anons already brought it up, I miss times when things like this didn't even require discussion, since any notion of Lal being evil, corrupt or scheming were a deliberate joke, rather than "b-but he is!"

>>5700482
And if you still have problem with understanding the fuck you are doing, riddle me this:
How much effort it takes to see Yang or Miriam as outright evil, power-abusing cunts and how that is weighted against their positive side?
Then apply the same to Morgan, Santiago and Zakharov.
Then to Lal and Deirdre.
Could it be possible that the dev team wanted to say you something via this? Something else than "everyone is wrong"?

>>5701337
>Then to Lal and Deirdre.
You're coupling Lal with a character who is the most likely (by game mechanics and tech discovery quotes) to harvest the destructive power of mindworms, who are one of the absolutely most terrifying weapons deployed on the battlefield in the entire game, and you're still making claims that I said "everyone is wrong" or "evil", which I NEVER said.
>the ONLY reason he's going to go on you is if you are running a Police State and are at his border.
I've had plenty of Transcend games where he went off on me because he was the largest AI controlled empire and I wasn't in a Police State.
>Grasping at straws, aren't we?
For a game this mired in 90s symbolism you're conveniently ignoring the idea that the guy espousing the most peaceful and democratic rhetoric might want to forcibly deliver it with Impact Rovers to other states. Lal isn't a true peacenik with a coded peaceweight of "complete pushover" like Gandhi is, and he does, and will sometimes, push on to "peace-loving democracies" if he has an advantage.
For all the high talk about preschool children and poetry, you have the biggest issues with reading comprehension here, attributing things I never said to me.
I will know better than to refer to novel material, but I'm also not interested in this conversation anymore; you convinced me on some things, i will admit, but you're needlessly hostile.

>>5691698
What the heck are you talking about?

>>5691698

other than use mindworms on human opponents what did Deirdre do wrong?

seems like mindworms use in war should be an atrocity btw

>>5701337
Lal basically can't be argued against. He doesn't have that many stated positions, and the ones he does have are:

1: Let's all get along
2: Human life has value
3: Bioengineering is important
4: My wife-clone has a right to self determination.

>>5701867
Literally nothing else. And considering that canonically, the only people she used mindworms on were Spartans, the entire point was to show the irony of the situation:
You have one of the most peaceful faction wiping the fucking floor with THE military power (or so they want to be seen) on the Planet, simply because... they've followed Spartan principles, instead of having them. They've adopted. Spartans did not. The end result is conventional military empire getting butt-fucked by bunch of ecologists and bio-farmers that know a thing or two about the local flora and aren't above underhand tactics.
Sounds familiar?

>>5701871
Different anon, but I guess that was the point - you don't have anything to argue against. There are no atrocities, no iffy stuff and at very worst, you can complain about the amount of paperwork. When you compare it with literally engineering bio-roid slaves or having to pay for breathing air, suddenly the paperwork looks like a fantastic alternative.

>>5702090

someone other anon made a good point about lal being earth 2.0, if he adheres to earth principles then earth mistakes will be repeated

like that other anon pointed out, earth died and humans barely escaped to alpha centauri

Planet even asks them, are you here to uplift us or are you here to spread the earth-killing disease than is human misguided activity? to paraphrase

>>5702116
>if he adheres to earth principles then earth mistakes will be repeated
... no?
And for a very, very simple reason. The Earth WAS NOT like what UN Charter is nor what the Peacekeepers are. Instead, it was a war-ridden mess, with various states squabbling over resources, vantom poverty, widespread unequality and various political systems that weren't exactly looking for well-being of citizens and definitely NOT for peace.
So saying "Lal sticking to Earth 2.0" is wrong on two levels: neither the Earth was like what Lal tries to build nor the point of following UN Charter is to create something like the Earth-That-Was. Instead, you have a lot of high-brow ideals that are being put into motion.
Hence why Lal in the end is the one with Talent and extra population cap bonus, that's literally his entire gimmick. Achieving those through being an idealist working with a blank slate, so he doesn't have to reform government(s) into such form, but make one from a scratch AND working initially with people who signed for this shit on their own. To build a BETTER, not SAME world.
If you are looking for people doing Earth 2.0, then look no further than Santiago and Spartans, up to openly claiming why this place should be any different than simply another battlefield.
And remind yourself how it ends for Spartans.

>>5702116
>>5702131
So in the end the Planet asking this question is about what the factions eventually turn into - a new batch of states squabbling over resources and/or ideologies. And this is how they achieve "Earth 2.0" - by splitting into factions and fighting each other. Which is, as you might guess, against everything Lal and Peacekeepers stand for, as the remnant of original Unity mission.
Unity, for Christ sake. The game isn't really subtle, so I'm always amazed how people still jump into conclusions opposite to the game's content.

>>5702131

Perhaps the point of Lal representing the UN charter is to represent its impotence, it didnt work on earth and it certainly didnt bring any peace to Planet without hypocrisy. For example its impossible to be Peaceful with factions who oppose you at the fundamental level such as Santiago and Yang. The whole premise of the peacekeepers comes unraveled the instant it faces reality.

Might makes Right

not to say that Santiago is correct, but the point of the revelation that Might Makes Right, is that every other faction can use Might without being a Hypocrite and undermine their own principles.

>>5702156
Why you are trying to go for things that really aren't there?
Lal achieves EVERYTHING the Charter contains within his Peacekeepers and is adamant on keeping it running. That's why there is no fucking way to make him vote for removing the Charter. That's why he gets those various bonuses. That's why eventually he's "vanilla", with only the vast bureaucracy going in his faction as any sort of "effect".
Besides, they are not Peaceful People. They are Peacekeepers. Like someone else mention, this is at this point semantics and grasping at almost literal straws.
All while actively and deliberately missing the point, because oh no, some factions turn out to be actually good, rather them all being grey... maybe because it's the game that's all shades of grey, achieved by having various factions in it, rather than every single element of game being simply grey.
Amazing, right?

Also, Santiago's point isn't "Might Makes Right". Santiago point is the peak hypocrisy of the game - while constantly bragging about adaptability and survival, she's ultimately the one utterly unable to adapt or survive. Getting rolf-stomped by Gaians, who did adopt and survived. Surely, all you need is rifles and training, right? And symetrical growth and repeating all the shit that worked on Earth, while shrugging on the mere concept that things might work differently. Or even TRY to run them differently, since given Santiago's bio, she's simply unable to grasp that there were other things going in the world than gang wars in slum. But since she can't see that nor is willing to accept that, she ultimately ends up cucked by Gaians, trying to fight symetrical war against something that she doesn't even understand. Just throw more rifles and bodies at it, until...
... you die

>>5702161

Sounds pretty lost-testosterone to me. I doubt the peacekeepers have what it takes to ensure the survival of the species, the capacity for savagery appears to be a prerequisite for an organism to survive in nature.

also seems like the UN charter will hold them back in ever achieving transcendence because if those principles are their highest goal, how can they reconcile leaving behind the human form? Maybe lal trying to revive his dead wife is symbolic of his/their attempts to revive dead-end principles that they love but in the end are gone and need to be let go.

>>5702257
>I doubt the peacekeepers have what it takes to ensure the survival of the species, the capacity for savagery appears to be a prerequisite for an organism to survive in nature
Yes, that explains why Spartans got wiped out by Gaians, the least testosterone pumped faction out there.
Keep digging. At this point your head is still sticking out from the hole, so not deep enough to bury yourself

>>5702257
This was getting interesting and then you've ruined it by going full retarded

>>5702271

well maybe the spartans overdid it,

im faulting the peacekeepers for being fatally low-test, the gaians arent cucks the same way the peacekeepers are, theyre fanatical about their beliefs whereas the peackeepers are a bunch of comfort-seeking softies

i wouldnt place my bets on softies like them to ensure the survival or transcendence of the human race

>>5702331
>fatally low-test
>cucks
>softies
you ruined any possibility of this being a thought provoking discussion
this discussion is already quoting supplementary material and the vague SMAC "canon", and Spartans got literally wiped by GAIANS, the most pacifist, hippie, peace-loving culture of them all

low-test isn't "fatal" to anyone and certainly hasn't killed you, only made you unable to get laid

>>5702351

sorry i used some words you dont use to make my point

still my point remains, savagery is required to survive as an organism, the gaians will do it to defend planet, for example, using mindworms on humans in warfare.

the Peackeepers are fucked whether they do it or not.

if they embrace savagery they may survive but they undermine their own principles, if they dont they will likely be out competed by those who will or by planet itself.

This is why other people more articulate than myself have accused them of being hypocrites

>Manual has a recommended reading list
>Deliberately leaves out Hellstrom's Hive so that nobody finds out that half of Yang's quotes come from it
Devilish.

>>5702257
>>5702331
This really was an interesting discussion, probably the only time anyone noticed that Lal isn't going for Earth 2.0 or his vision will lead to same mistakes, but quite the contrary...
And then you happend

>>5702525

not sure what youre going for here, trying to shame me with a reaction image?

cant refute this?>>5702372

probably going to hit me with some more lal dick sucking and talk around and not directly at my simple point about necessary savagery and lals inability to partake in it without being a hypocrite.

>>5702568
The original anon dedicated... 4 posts on explicitly explaining that you don't need any sort of savagery at all and only after (not before) those posts you made argument it's still prerequests, throwing bunch of limp-dicked lingo into the mix.
So either you didn't read those posts at all or read them and still decided to do a "low-test" reply. Oh the irony!

>>5702676
Ok i think i understand the issue here, im imagining how Peacekeepers would really play out, and the other guy is referencing the books or some other comic and what happens in those or something as canon

>>5702679
>t. never played the game himself and only here for shitposting
You already killed the thread, why you even bother anymore?

>>5702686

killed your argument for loving a existentially weak faction more like

>>5702331
>a bunch of comfort-seeking softies
That's Morgans. They literally have penalty to anything involving any sort of hardship and on top of that they bases can't grow big due to focusing on luxury first, second and last.
You would know all that, if you played the game at least once.
Why don't you just remind us that you are an election refugee on a wrong board, trying to pander how democracy is for pussies and obviously there are better options, like militarised dictatorship or outright Soviet commune, with tough Big Daddy leading the sheeple, which we all know weed out corruption, abuse and are the best systems imaginable...
... until the Big Daddy decides to do things differently than you want them.

>>5702697

the morganites are even more guilty for being comfort seekers yes

>>5702435
The funny part is how everyone is talking about Taoism and Confucianism and sometimes even Legalism...
... while Yang is pure Mozi, down to combination of military order, sense of comradeship achieved by crowd and disinterest in matter outside of the commune

>>5702697

Democracy was built on enlightenment principles that have proven to be false such as equality among humans

Why should a king be subject to people beneath him? including me

>>5702741
Best Big Daddy for you

>>5702741

>>5702769

i understand, the disagreement i have with your pic there is that we have reached this point of depravity and immorality

a constitutional monarchy can have power checks, and not require hereditary monarchy either, for example pre-norman conquest anglo saxon england in which the next ruler was decided during a council called the "moot" but with the additional power checks of a constitution could improve even on that system

>>5702793
... then why bother with having monarchy at all, you dumb fuck

>>5702798

it has alot of advantages

Thomas Hobbes's Argument For Monarchy

the kings interests are tied to the peoples so long as he is of those people(looking at you William the Bastard, its your fault we are in this mess)

the king can be advised in private and is less susceptible to being swayed by emotional displays, which work so well on groups

a king can choose and stick to long term, lifetime plans, rather than plans being at mercy to the whims of an ever changing assembly

a king cant disagree with himself out of envy or jealousy

only so many flatterers can exert influence over a king whereas an assembly can be influenced by thousands of different interests pulling in a thousand different directions

an assembly is the equivalent of being burdened with hundreds of regents jockeying for power while "representing an infant king who will never be of age"

>>5702831
... and then the king turns out to be fucking retarded and you are stuck with him. Oh wow, what a great system!

>>5702831
>Gets a throw from /tg/ why /pol/tards love non-democratic governemts
>Confirms it to the T
Childish ideology indeed.

I wonder what would Japanese would say about you. No, wait, you are actually going to argue about them being monarchy. So let's try Koreans instead. Or Swiss, to not overcomplicate.
Oh wow, you can have a democracy and long-term goals and policies! Who would have expected! And in the same time work for the betterment of people! Truly, an utopian idea, let's better just stick with hereditary rule.
What could possibly go wrong with that, right?

>>5702842
>>5702850


nah im talking about pre-norman anglo saxon england style, it wasnt strictly hereditary, they didnt have norman style inbreeding to maintain power, the normans were foreigners who imposed themselves on false pretenses brutalized the anglos so bad it gave monarchy a bad name for a thousand years

in point number one of hobbes argument for monarchy, The the King is Of the People is crucial, as in, not a foreigner

i think thomas hobbes made a good argument, in particular points 1, 4 and 6 in that list i posted

>>5702872
You are talking about utter bullshit that exists only in your head, let's make that very clear and explicity.
Which has jack shit to do with SMAC, by the way, to get back to your containment board.

>>5702886
*so get back

>>5702886

sure it does, im using historical precedent to illustrate that lal's ideology is fundamentally flawed

jefferson thought pre-norman england was real enough, since it was the norman conquest he misguidedly was trying to correct with enlightenment ideals of equality

"although this constitution(anglo saxon england) was violated and set at naught by Norman force, yet force cannot change right. A perpetual claim was kept up by the nation” for “a restoration of their Saxon laws.” -thomas jefferson

unfortunately for us all he was wrong

>>5702913

well, not wrong in trying to undo the norman conquest, but wrong in his methods because in 1776 they had no knowledge of darwin or evolution and that humans are not equal

>>5702831
What if you end up with a psychopathic despot?

Wow this was a cool thread until the incel /pol/ faggot showed up and started dumping his epic redpill folder lmao

>>5704318
Pretty much

>>5704305

during the pre-norman anglo saxon england era, the king was vetted for years and years before he had power

our whole concept of kingship and monarchy has been tainted by the norman conquest, if the king is of the people, his interests and the peoples interests are shared