/vr/ - Retro Games

>>5670919
>Procedurally generated levels (but what would they look like)

ass

Nothing
It was a product of its time and it did splendidly.

>>5670919
Isn't there random level generators for Wolf3D already?
The bigger issue would have it not take forever to load between each level on hardware of the time

You're overestimating the amount of promise a more polished Wolf3d would provide. The game itself was basically a selling point for the engine tech since it ran glass smooth. Sure it was fun to blast Nazis, but did anyone really (like REALLY) play Wolf for the enthralling story etc? Yeah it was king for about 18 months, but Doom blew IT out of the water after it came out, and that was that.

>>5670943
>>5670932
Yes there was, it was part of the "super upgrades pack", later followed by RANDROTT (for Rise of the Triad ofc). Such levels were indeed not particularly great. However, the current state of the art in level generation is way more sophisticated. Much better things can be accomplished, and while using very little compute resources.

>>5670919
>Procedurally generated levels
I wish this lazy, shitty meme of """design''"" would fucking die. Procedural generation is shit.

>>5671021
Modern procedural generation is still ass even if we have nailed the technical aspects. It's a fundamentally flawed idea. Quality should always come before quantity. Having a robot make a bunch of samey levels has never improved any game. And all of your other points are just shit that was in DOOM.

Switch the missions around so Hitler's the actual final boss.

>>5670919
>- Remove lives component
>- Remove score

hurrr remove this feature because more modern FPS's don't have it, therefore something something something. I can't explain or even begin to elaborate why these are bad features, but I love to blindly follow trends so I must be right

>>5671739
Falling for the nu-FPS meme is all too common these days, yes (more of a Hovertank man myself), but does that mean Wolf-3D is perfect?

>>5670937

This, and

>>5670961

This.

It's fucking 1992, dude.

Even a 386 is still a costly machine that only a fraction of people have in their homes. PC gaming has only just emerged and the arcades, although already well past their peak, are still a fresh memory.

Ditching all the arcade familiarity for an audience that's used to the arcades? What are you really gonna gain?

Auto-map? They'll finish it way too quickly. It's 1992. You don't want to beat games in 6-8 hours in 1992. You want beat them in 6-8 WEEKS. Hell, 6-8 MONTHS, preferably. What the fuck are you gonna play if you beat it in a day!?

>>5670919
The only attractive thing I see is to remove the lives cap. Instead, just count the player deaths and save them next to the high score.

I don't personally care for the rest of the changes.

>>5671831
I can see this obfuscating record keeping. Just make dying deduct a hefty chunk of points.

>>5671865
If the final high score meant anything to people, I could see a point deduction being meaningful. My feelings are that people are more likely to brag about a lack of deaths, so I think it would be nice to actually record the deaths in a visible way. Flawless victors should be a bragging point.

Is there any mod of wolfenstein but with truman instead of hitler as the final boss?

>>5670919
What if score is money and u can buy more arms

I tend to agree with adding the automap functionality. This was even included in the code of early versions of Wolf3D. But was never included in the final game.
If you take a close look at the usage of different wall tiles the maps are less maze-like as you expect. But still sometimes you will run through corridors multiple times before you know which turn you have missed.

I have followed the Wolf3D modding scene in the past (and even did some limited modding myself). I remember that some mods were quite impressive, but none felt as a real better game to me.
For example you could add directional sprites. These are sprites which have a fixed direction instead of following the player camera. Zero thickness wall so to say. This adds the ability to things like fences. But it in the end it takes away the charm of simplicity of the original game.
Furthermore such mods would likely increase pcu/memory needs. Rendering the game unplayable at the time.

>>5670919
Carmack said himself that he considers procedural generation a form of crappy compression.

>>5671769

naw wolf3d wasn't perfect, but I never noticed any shortcomings in it until years later when technically superior games started coming out like doom, then I never wanted to play wolf again. I never had much of a complaint with wolf back in the day when it was the most advanced game out there, I was just busy memorizing the layouts of every level so that I could beat them on "I am death incarnate". It's really dumb to try to judge games from one time and insist that they are inferior because they don't contain the same features and game paradigms as games made several years later. It's really sad because millineals could actually be using their youngness and skills for something useful, instead of making fake criticisms of games and talking shit about the games that literally paved the way for everything they have now

>>5671818
Very true. Also who the hell gives a freebie map in an escape-from-prison story?

>>5672707
Ultima Underworld didn't come out years later but months earlier.

>>5672225
this is pretty much the only thing i disagree with him on

Spend treasure on buying upgrades at the end of levels so that collecting it actually serves a purpose, that's basically all the game needs. Secrets are boring because there is not enough of actual consequence to find.

>>5672225
Carmack said all kinds of dumb shit. He's a brilliant programmer who knows very little about game design.

Fuck off wolf3d is based.

>>5672225
He was speaking in the specific context of the Unlimited Detail engine. Didn't mention procgen maps at all.

Is there even such a thing as a good wolf3d map?

I wonder if games like Nuclear Throne (and its clones) would work well from a first person perspective (a wolf3d type engine would be perfectly suited to display this).

>>5673023
>>5673041
Carmack said and did all kinds of dumb shit but he has a point here. Doesn't matter if it's details/textures or maps, procedural generated content shifts the focus away from design.

>>5671021
I have randrott its prettt good
I cant imagine wanting it for wolf3d though
not without increasing enemy and weapon variety

>>5672073
Based diehardwolfers poster

There is barely anything good about the setting. It was only good because it was one of the first FPS games. The setting and aesthetic was just a piss take for a game that didn't even need one. Some creative people extended the life of the setting by adding some decent occult themes to it and adding some coolness to it, but half decent writing is apparently not possible anymore.

>>5673139
Wolf-Pac
(Hidden level in episode 3 of wolf3d)

>>5673234
one of the one of the only reason these games work is because you can see enemies behind you and to your side.
rare exceptions do exist such as XyBots

>>5673139
Go play orb of dilaaria you ignorant gorilla monkey. It is full of good maps.

>>5673307
was thinking more of map-only mods or original levels.

>>5670919
Wolf3D's mazes would really benefit from an automap though

>>5671729
Eva Braun should be a TLB for people who manage to beat all six episodes on the highest difficulty without reloading a save file.

>>5673234
open/ island style maps would be functionally serious sam type arenas, so mazes with keys is really the best solution (a limited one though)

>>5670919
>Procedurally generated levels (but what would they look like)
Procedurally generated levels are the worst thing you can do for an FPS. It would certainly not improve this game's level design.

>Built in automap
This would be a good addition, in fact the devs thought so too and some of the console ports feature it.

Changes I would make is to add the rocket launcher and flamethrower from the console versions, double the attack speed of the pistol, machinegun, and gatling gun, while upping the size of their ammo pool to 250, if you find a backpack upgrade.
I guess I would also add basic armor.
The arcadey stuff like score and treasure hunting can stay, but give the player a free health refill/boost instead of an extra life.

Enemies could use some boosting too.
The SS trooper can fire faster (though restrict him to like 5rd bursts, then he tries to move a few steps closer), the officer should try to fall back and get behind cover, popping out briefly to fire a shot or two, he should be a nuisance to fight.
Then there could be like a new enemy, a sort of heavy elite trooper, he'd fire a fast machinegun towards you until you get out of line of sight, and if you sneak around a corner or doorway to avoid his fire and hope to get the drop on him, he'll stop and try to throw a hand grenade there, waits, then advances, it ticks down for maybe 3sec and has a splash radius of 5 squares in a + pattern (but does half the damage of a rocket), so he thus forces you to retreat further or to rush out and face him.
He takes 25% less damage from bullets because of his armor, but instead takes double damage from the flamer and rockets (nor is he immune to his grenades), this incentivizes saving your heavy ammo to make sure you can handle these guys better.
They'd be used as occasional minibosses early in the game, but later on you'd possibly fight as many as four at a time, along with lots of other mooks, probably guarding a key or exit.
Friendly fire would exist, but the humans will make some effort to not shoot each other, and won't infight each other, meanwhile the mutants would start infighting very easily, but also be faster and try to advance on you in a zigzag pattern.

Also add a map.

>>5672225
For FPS, he is right.

>>5676302
For levels, I'd add some occasional use of "midtextures", more varied textures and decorative objects and obstacles. Possibly some places or levels use different door textures.
Possibly some ambient sound here and there.

Basically try to make locations more distinct and less samey looking.

The only time procgen was a good idea was for Diablo.

Catacomb 3D was better

>>5673026
It's not bad, but if you compare it to Doom or Rise Of The Triad, you realize just how plain and repetitive it is.

>>5676363
>Rise Of The Triad
lmao

>>5676369
It's a good game, kid.

Fuck off Tom Hall

>>5676382
Make me.

I wonder if Minecraft-like gameplay could be shimmed into Wolf3d.