/vr/ - Retro Games

>>5655595
actually we just outgrew those games years ago

It's funny that JRPGs started to be their own genre when they got RID of the Wizardry style first person dungeons and put everything into the Ultima overworld top down style

>>5655595
Ultima is the best shit ever.

how come there was never a jrpg that reached the same level of challenge as wiz 4?

are japs just bad at games?

Reminder OP is a zoomer who just found out about these games himself

>>5655595
Actually it's because they're shit.

>>5655841
This, jrpgs worked because they streamlined wizardry and ultima into something actually playable
Even westcucks won't touch the ultima series except for underworld and online

Ultima is all Garriott's preachy ego trip and I couldn't stand that shit, Wizardry and most dungeon crawls lack the adventure aspect

>>5655970
back to larping as the transexual underage anime twink from your favourite jarpig

>>5655975
Cope

>>5655979
over still having a functional cock?

>>5655980
More like over being a sexless incel LMAO

/rekt
/thread

>>5655595
>weebs refuse to play or acknowledge them because they aren't japanese
that's kinda funny considering even japs seemed to love the UItima franchise

>>5656002
Actual Japanese people love the US which makes America hating weebs that much more laughable

>>5655990
dilate harder, jarpigfag

>>5655975
You should learn what larping actually is /pol/ because this is a really irritating meme and not for the reasons you think it is.

>>5656007
have sex

>>5655595
How can you possibly know what 35 year old RPG cartridges are being played today or by whom? Did I turn on my MSX today? What the fuck do you know?

>>5656015
get aids
nvm you're already pozzed

>>5656036
have sex

>>5656041
>>5656015
Have chastity.

True weebs play Japanese versions of Wizardry and Ultima.

>>5655729
>how come there was never a jrpg that reached the same level of challenge as wiz 4?
jrpg makers sold their games to millions of console owners wizardry's audience was a handful of neckbeard computer nerds.

>>5655595
>GUYS ALL JRPGS ARE BASICALLY JUST ULTIMA
>no jrpg beyond the nes era plays even remotely like ultima
shut the fuck up zoomer

>>5655729
because Wiz 4 sold horribly due to being a niche within a niche. no one wants to play that shit again.

>>5656384
OP said inspired

>>5656384
What doesn't play like Ultima aside from Wizardry?

>>5655729
Wiz 4 was a puzzle game, not an RPG. Even westerners don't play pre-Bradley Wizardry anymore.

>>5656412
They don't even play Bradley's first Wizardry.

>>5656412
>Wiz 4 was a puzzle game, not an RPG.
Ah, so that's why it's not complete shit.

>>5655595
Imagine a world where EA doesn't acquire Origin and Origin could still make RPGs without a room filled with executives breathing down their necks at every game design decision.

>>5655970
but ultima v is the best one

>>5656384
What do you mean? JRPGs after the NES are still like Ultima, they just made them even more linear and cinematic. The basic principles of it being an open world game with towns and quests is cut down a lot in JRPGs in general, but it's still there.

WRPGs have aged so fucking badly. It's a shame.

>>5657108
if a game is still fun, then it hasn't aged badly

>>5657149
What I mean to say is that many of them are so clunky. It's because of them being PC games.

>>5657152
you get used to the clunkiness eventually, it's part of their charm.

>>5656229
Wizardry Gaiden 2 on Gameboy is where it's at

>>5657273
Hell yeah brother. I've only beaten Proving Grounds, Knight of Diamonds, and Gaiden I. I'm starting Legay of Llylgamyn now. How does Gaiden II compare to I?

>>5655729
Wizardry 4 is not even the hardest Wizardry.
Try to play Wizardry Empire: Fukkatsu no Tsue without any savestates or other cheats if you want a real challenge.

>>5655638
It's funny that you're full of shit, m8.

>>5656002
I didn't know there were English novels. And written by Lynn "Thieves's World" Abbey, too. Neat.

>>5657448
Phantasy Star is an exception that proves the rule. Getsu Fuu Maden has first person dungeons too. So what?

>>5655595
You dumb fool Wizardry had more remakes, spin offs and new games released in Japan than in the west.
>but it's not REEOOL Wizardry developers
Doesn't matter, nigga, they own the copyright now. If the developers had a problem with that they shouldn't have sold the rights in the first place

Why are westcucks so obsessed?

>>5655729
It's ironic that the Japanese developed Llygamyn Saga remake of Wiz4 is a much better game than original piece of ass Mccintosh Wiz4 ever hoped to be. But because the game is slightly less bullshit than the original try hard fans will act like that's somehow a lesser port.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFkJTVXG5rY

>>5657504
Because West is the Best.

Stay cucked weebshit.

>>5656318
Funny how computer games went on to inspire a genre of games that are the lifeblood of consoles, while the CRPG died.

>>5657529
JRPG's died too. List 10 made within the past 5 years that still use a turn-based battle engine like retro JRPG's.

>>5657543
I can only name four, and even then some of them might be "action RPGs"; Persona 5, Ni no Kuni 2, Dragon Quest 11, some Neptunia games. I was gonna say Bravely Default but that came out 7 years ago.

the japs made a Wizardry anime movie as a thank you to the wrpgs, that counts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aO1Dzuz6YbI

>>5657528
Delusional.

>>5657578
Remind us again who won World War 2, whose language you're speaking right now, and who invented the technology you're using to shitpost right now?

It's you that's delusional, my dear weeb.

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT

>>5657509
I just wish someone would fully translate it, I hear there is an "arranged" mode of IV that is basically completely japanese. Even the "standard" mode you have pictured lacks fully translated menus and spells.

>>5657550
octopath, any recent pokemon game counts to really

>>5657587
>Remind us again who won World War 2
The Soviet Union
>whose language you're speaking right now
I haven't *spoken* for more than a month.
>who invented the technology you're using to shitpost right now?
Computers were invented by Konrad Zuse (a German).

But what does this all have to do with hating Japan?

>>5657623
>pokemon
>rpg

here we go again

>>5657649
>Soviet Union
Which is part of Europe, aka the West. Other Western nations such as USA, UK and France also won, and didn't collapse like USSR.

>I haven't *spoken* for more than a month.
Okay, but you're writing in English, a Western language.

>Computers were invented by Konrad Zuse (a German).
Zuse's computers are different from the computers that became the norm. And anyway, Germany is still part of the West.

>But what does this all have to do with hating Japan?
It proves that Japan is inferior and you're a cuck for thinking that shithole is important.

>B-BUT MUH GAEMS AND ANNIEMAY
Grow up faggot.

>>5657108

>>5657736
>UK didn't collapse like USSR.
They lost a bigger percentage of their land than USSR/Russia. It's a complete collapse by any definition.

Also France spend more time fighting on side of the Axis as Vichy France than they did on Allies side.
The collapse of the USA is just a matter of time too.

>>5657498
Robert Woodhead, one of the original creators of Wizardry, was a huge weeaboo. He started living in Japan and exporting Japanese media as Animeigo.
If there's something not made by the real Wizardry developers, it's Wizardry 6-8.

>>5657587
>israel's degenerate mutt colony getting all uppity and calling people cucks
amusing

Changing up the Ultima formula formula is so weird. It would be like today if some new developers saw the success of Fallout 4 and Skyrim and they decided they wanted to get rid of all the open world, quests, character building, and stuff like that and just make it a linear game where you travel across the world and occasionally do stuff, and then people think this new style is the best idea ever. That's basically what JRPGs are, and I don't get it. Like, if you've played Final Fantasy and Skyrim you must know what the main difference is, right?

>>5658067
open world games are bloated boring trash that let you do their generic "bring me 5 bear dicks" sidequests in whatever order you want (big whoop), the main quest can never be even remotely interesting because having a narrative the plot has to stick to would limit your freedumbs to do the shitty sidequests, the characters can never be memorable because "M-MUH SELF INSERT"
most oof them have to be real time so you can forget about having a party of characters interacting with one another
also for some reason western devs are incapable of making memorable boss encounters

but the worst thing by far about wrpgs (especially modern ones) is the amount of WALKING you have to do to get through their brown medieval worlds, gray post apocalyptic world or blue space worlds
This shit has unfortunately infected even some jrpgs and it's been an increasingly growing problem ever since games went 3D

>>5655595
I still don't really understand what the "JRPG style" really is about. I've played many of them. All it seems to me is a genre that is focused on letting the player develop their own headcanon about the story and characters via flavor text, animations, and other frivolous, mostly texture-based, non-mechanical elements, making the whole exercise a game of imagination with audiovisual support in the form of a slideshow video game (because really, no one plays JRPGs for the game part, the numbers exist to pace out the dialog and cutscenes). Contrast this with WRPGs, which let the player distribute points into various stats, which solidifies their headcanon into a mechanically-based play style, effectively transforming their headcanon into real canon. So, you could draw the origins of JRPGs to those games, but at the same time I think it's a bit disingenuous to do so, because JRPGs appear to have nothing in common with them at a fundamental level.

>>5658374
Maybe you should play Wizardry and Ultima before making a fool out of yourself.

there's like a dozen japanese wizardry spinoffs what the fuck are you talking about
it even has a vita game

>>5658384
Well, I'll admit I haven't played Wizardry and I've just played later Ultima titles starting at IV. Thing is, WRPGs and JRPGs obviously went different routes, and the route WRPGs took indicates a very different understanding of what these games were trying to accomplish. Later WRPGs would focus on enhancing the roleplaying experience by connecting it to more complex mechanics and rules, which appears to be closer to the original intention of these games. JRPGs would focus on making shallow movies that use the video game format just to stretch out their running time.

>>5655595
>>5656002
Wizardry was pretty popular among nippon's rpg nerds. I mean they bothered to translate them. And in some cases, remade them. E.g. Underworld for PSX.

>>5658409
Japan also got translations of
>Dungeon Master (They even got the second game before the west!)
>The goldbox AD&D games
>The Might & Magic series
>Bard's Tale series
>Phantasie series
>Drakkhen
>Elvira
>Lands of Lore

It was definitely the best country to live in if you're an RPG fan.

/pol/ sure cant handle the fact that western games are inferior.

>>5658612
....what

>>5658396
JRPG combat is a "streamlined-for-consoles" adaptation of Wizardry combat. It's pretty simple anon and you have to be rather ignorant to claim "the numbers exist to pace out the dialog and cutscenes," especially when dialog and cutscenes amount to maybe 3% of the gameplay time in most early JRPGs like Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy.

Imagine thinking jrpg or wrpg are good.

>>5658796
>Imagine thinking jrpg or wrpg are good.

>>5658810
>imagine thinking

>>5658374
>I still don't really understand what the "JRPG style" really is about.
The JRPG style is a generalization. Basically one can expect two things:
- Emphasis on story.
- Much less character building freedom, be it due to lack of character creation, the ability to decide how your character grows on level up, or how much choices you are given to tackle quests.

>>5658438
Ooo kino

>>5658786
>especially when dialog and cutscenes amount to maybe 3% of the gameplay time in most early JRPGs like Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy.
The other 97% usually feels like filler though. Fights are repetitive and don't take much, if any thought, there is a lot of pointless walking, pointless dialog, loading screens, and usually there's grinding involved rather than implementing tactics to progress.

>>5658951
>I don't understand therefore it's filler
Some people really need a game to punish them hard for any failure to take extra time to understand the mechanics and what's going on. Others are fine with a more forgiving game that allows them to explore the mechanics at their own pace.

Needless to say, the excessively punishing games tend to be a lot less popular with the masses than the more forgiving games. But only true retards can't see ANY point at all to games that aren't punishing and difficult. Even if you don't prefer to play them, you can be intelligent enough to understand why they're fun.

>>5656003
This. The thigs that get big in nipland are consistently American products that weebs hate. They might as well put Mickey Mouse on their flag for how much they're obsessed with Disney. That company is somehow bigger in Japan than it is in its country of origin

/v/-tier thread

>>5657491
>Phantasy Star is an exception that proves the rule.
No it's not and that's a stupid saying. There are tonnes of bloody first person JRPGs especially from that era, you git.

>>5659903
>There are tonnes of bloody first person JRPGs especially from that era, you git.

Like what?

>>5659016
Play ultima

>>5658438


>>5658438
Lands of Lore and most of the goldbox games were shit though.

>>5660027
Maybe it is YOU who is the one that is shit.

>>5659940
https://refuge.tokyo/pc9801/en/RPG_3D.html

Weebs should at least play the NES ports that look like final fantasy.

>>5655970
retard, ultima 5, 6,7,8 are pure kino

>>5656423
>hates rpgs
>posts the doom child rapist developer
Pottery. Go to your containment thread.
>>5657152
>PC bad, crippled UI design meant for console good! Menu within menu within menu!!!
The older CRPGs blow UI wise because quite a few lacked mouse control and were more advanced than consoleshit so they had to make use of the keyboard, which leads to 10 billion hotkeys to remember.

>>5658996
It's not even a matter of difficulty. Many of the popular JRPGs use time to deflect judgment on the fact that there is no game there to really be talked about. The players feel like they have been on a journey, when they have had little to no agency in the world and it's all been given to them through non-interactive dialog and cutscenes.

wizardry is the ikaruga of rpgs

I made a list of over 200 JRPGs yesterday. But the vast majority
- Had child or teen protagonists.
- Had a lighthearted tone, with anime-tier writing ("This guy is tough!").
- Had terrible artstyle.

The ones that didn't fit the norm were
- The Shin Megami Tensei games (but not Persona).
- The Metroidvanias, which I don't think of as "RPGs" period, but whatever.
- The Parasite Eve series.
- The Shadow Hearts series.
- FromSoftware's titles.
- Wizardry clones.
- And Yasumi Matsuno's titles: Ogre series, Final Fantasy Tactics, Vagrant Story.

And I've got to say I'm surprised at how Japs seem to be unable to make serious stories that don't go into dark or grimdark territories: only Matsuno's games are serious while at the same time not being "edgy" (as opposed to SMT). Why is that the case?

>>5661004
Define "serious". I like my "western" RPGs but they don't usually have stories more complex that "bad guys bad, go kill".

>>5660917
agreed, it's the best

>>5661010
>Define "serious"
Writing that takes itself seriously, i.e. if there are jokes, they have to be appropiate, not make an entire script out of jokes after jokes (such as NIS games).

It's not really about having complex stories either, just not having everything be a giant anime cliche.

>>5661004
200 doesn't sound like a whole lot, especially when your exceptions number up that much.

>>5661004
Sweet Home is pretty boss, I don't like jRPGs generally but I like that game

>>5661062
Only platforms I own or have very good emulation, so: NES, SNES; GB, GBC, GBA; Master System, Genesis, Sega CD, Saturn; PlayStation, PlayStation 2. This includes popular fan translated titles (e.g. Seiken Densetsu 3, Live A Live, the Fire Emblem titles, but not more obscure stuff like the Goemon Gaiden games for the Famicom).
>>5661064
I actually played that game and eventually gave up close to the end. It was fairly repetitive and boring, but whereas you can say the same about Dragon Warrior, at least DW is a fairly braindead experience. Sweet Home has you switching up party members and items all the time, it was simply annoying.

I played it after playing Resident Evil for the first time this year, so it was very cool seeing stuff that RE would eventually appropiate (like stairs/doors cinematics).

>>5661010
>Define "serious".
Not intended as a joke. Not for comedic purposes.

>>5655595
Someone hasn't been keeping up with Wizardry history.
Remakes, reboots, sequels, spin-offs, novels, anime, manga, that thing is more japanese than western by now.

>>5655595
Dragon Quest was inspired by Wizardry first and foremost. Ultima was secondary. Most importantly, the JRPG genre is directly descended from (i.e. inspired the games that followed) Dragon Quest II specifically and not Ultima or Wizardry.
For example, here's from Sakaguchi:
>Which is why I was shocked by the genius of Dragon Quest.
>Faced with these dire circumstances, and in light of the massive genius of Dragon Quest, I launched the Final Fantasy project.
>Naturally, when it comes to Dragon Quest I had a massive amount of respect for the game. I was personally a huge Akira Toriyama fan, and I read the Weekly Jump Magazines every week. A game designed by such a dream-team felt way out of my reach, which is why when I started the Final Fantasy project, I hoped to at least get somewhere close to Dragon Quest.
Etc.

>>5661095
The big influence to DQ was Questron actually. There isn't a whole lot of Wizardry in DQ1.
Final Fantasy on the other hand stole a lot of stuff directly from D&D.

>>5655638
Actually, JRPG split into two subgenres (Ultima Dungeons, e.g. DraQue and FF, and Wizardry dungeons, e.g. Phantasy Star) and are still this way to this day. Moreso, while mainstream series have switched to ARPG instead of the JRPG DQ/FF model, Wizardry-style JRPGs are still practically the same as they were thirty years ago, e.g. Stranger of Sword City.

>>5661083
I forgot to add that Ultima also had manga adaptations of almost every game.

>>5661083
Wizardry has been Japanese since 1985. Even the IBM and C64 ports were a byproduct of releasing the games in Japan.

>>5661083
>that thing is more japanese than western by now.
It's been 100% Japanese for more than a decade now. As you well know no doubt--I'm writing for that other guy's information.

>>5661074
So you know next to nothing and have the audacity to judge writing based on translations.

>>5661101
What fucking Questron? I've read up on DQ quite extensively and yet I've never, ever heard about this--and can't even google up ANYTHING at all (see pic). Forgive me, but bullshit.

>>5661115
No, that's not quite true, it was bought out sometimes after W8, after Sierra went down.

>>5661121
Try searching for クエストロン + 堀井雄二
https://news.denfaminicogamer.jp/interview/180418

>>5661118
Yeah, how dare I judge a game based on the translation approved by the developer?

My point rings even truer: I'm not going to learn a meme language to play games. I've already done so with English, which is useful for everyday life.

>>5661125
That was when the American development of Wizardry stopped but even before that it was mostly in Japanese hand.
In the 90s you only had 6, 7 and Nemesis (that nobody gives a shit about) meanwhile Japan released 4 Gaiden titles, 3 Empire and Dimguil

>>5661134
Actually, that's an interesting tidbit that I can't find a way to argue with (and by God did I try). Questron dev seems to have been successfully sued by the ole Lord British for plagiarism, but the interview at least says that Horii apparently took the idea of mixing these particular systems from it. Interesting. You're mum's still a ho, but thanks for the info.

>>5661138
Sure, that's fine, but that means your list is made up of console games selected for their marketability to American children, so it's harder to judge Japanese game writing as a whole from that.
I'm not gonna call myself some sort of expert but it looks like Japanese /vr/ games for adults were on PCs, much the same as the rest of the world during most of that era. Some of the RPGs got ported to consoles (e.g. Lunatic Dawn, Sorcerian, Illusion City, ofc not in English) but most didn't. (Koei's console ports came out in English sometimes tho)
Mind you I feel like that market died in the 20th century so if this were /v/ you'd have a point about modern Japanese games.

>>5661160
He also stopped Xanadu from getting released overseas because they had copied some artwork from Ultima.
In the end he kind of deserved getting shat on by EA.

>>5655729
>that one anon who is OBSESSED with jrpg difficulty but sucks at all of them and has never done any challenge runs
HAHAHAHAHAHA

I used to enjoy jrpgs when I was younger but as I've grown older my tolerance for anime troupes has decreased. I still enjoy some series and games but overall I just don't enjoy the genre like I used to. Could anyone suggest me a good crpg to start with? Graphics and such don't matter to me, isometric or first person dungeon crawlers are fine as well.

>>5662862
>I used to enjoy jrpgs when I was younger but as I've grown older my tolerance for anime troupes has decreased. I still enjoy some series and games but overall I just don't enjoy the genre like I used to.
don't let superficial qualities determine what games you play. most retro-jrpgs are light on anime-isms, if you mean waifu dating sims/moe shit and cringe "senpai" dialogue. Back in the day that stuff didn't happen, it's more of an influence on modern games.


>Could anyone suggest me a good crpg to start with?
Nope, that shit is boring and dry, takes itself too seriously.

>Graphics and such don't matter to me, isometric or first person dungeon crawlers are fine as well.
Any of the Shiren games. I'm playing the vita release but there are plenty retro Shiren games that are decent.

The west was influenced by board games. Creators of RPGs were also board game players, so they had a point of reference on how to make the games, which explains the scope, mechanics and systems you see.

But jrpgs didn't have that, only wrpg and manga/anime as an inspiration. From the point of view of a Japanese designer, jrpgs only serve to self insert yourself into an imaginary world and story, but wrpg developers knew what could be achieved by role playing and tried to capture that by adding complex systems (reputation, skills, factions, branched dialogues) that are usually miles ahead of jrpg but that never quite captured the real thing.

Eventually they were both leaded to transmit stories with some player agency or let the player do menial tasks that had little chance of trapping the player or had no strings attached. In that sense Japan was ahead of time.

>>5662862
Albion

>>5662882
Why would anybody claim such bullshit?
Are you really going to pretend nobody in Japan knew D&D and other TT RPG?

>>5655970
Wizardry>Ultima>Weebshit

>>5662893
D&D didn't get released in Japan until way later. Nips learned what RPGs were from Wizardry.

>>5662897
D&D got released in Japan by Shinwa in 1985, same year as Wizardry.
And nerds had access to the imported American versions before that.

>>5662872
I'm actually a fan of the mystery dungeon games. I was gifted the pokemon one on the gba as a kid as some relative figured I would love it, been a fan ever since. I just feel I should olen my horizons a bit and try out crpgs.
>>5662884
Have never heard of this, looks interezting, thanks for the suggestion anon.

>>5657448
What's this? Windows screensaver?

>>5657550
Trails games made by Falcom as well.

>>5662921
Phantasy Star 1 for the Sega Mark 3.

>>5658796
Unironically this. The different presentations don't change the fact that they're boring number crunch sims.

>>5661046
P.S. -Trebor Sux

>>5657543
What the fuck autismo? Name 10 from a genre from the last 5 years but the combat has to be a certain way or it doesn't count? I'm assuming you also mean successful games or else you could go through the 3ds's e-shop and see dozens of indies

>>5657543
>d-died
>JRPGS died
lol they mad

> List 10 made within the past 5 years that still use a turn-based battle engine like retro JRPG's.
no need (persona comes to mind though)
jrpgs had action combat before you were born, dumbo

>>5662882
>(reputation, skills, factions, branched dialogues)
yawn, board games are fun, wrpgs for the most part aren't
roleplaying without other people is pointless and since wrpgs (or any single player game for that matter) can't replicate the social aspect of tabletop rpgs, they include clunky mechanics in an attempt to improve the roleplaying aspect, but who wants to roleplay with a bunch of 1s and 0s anyway?
Dungeon crawlers like wizardry got it right by focusing mostly on party building and combat, the others are just chasing their own tail

Why are rpgfags here so fucking pretentious? Jrpgfags try to argue about why their weebshit is epitome of good gameplay while wrpgsfags are armchair philosphers because they played one game that ripped off LotR.

Both have some good games while the majority is shit, this applies to literally all genres of video game. Just shut the fuck up and play the good games.

>>5663014
>Just shut the fuck up and play the good games.
Take your own advice and don't butt into our high IQ discussions, pleb

>>5663067
>our high IQ discussions, pleb
Where would that be occuring exactly? Certainly not in this thread.

>>5662882
>but wrpg developers knew what could be achieved by role playing and tried to capture that by adding complex systems (reputation, skills, factions, branched dialogues)

That's more a Black Isle/Troika/Obsidian thing, so a minority.
Your average retro WRPG is more closer to Eye of the Beholder than to Wasteland.

>>5663014
Here's your (You), now go to sleep.

>>5662854
most people who praise wizardy have never beaten let alone played one

>>5663869
What do you base that on?
I'm not going to pretend I beat 4 on my own but I've finished the rest.

>>5662854
>has to do "challenge runs" in order to make his baby anime games difficult
You just btfo your own argument, lad.

>>5663898
just experience talking about harder games online. im not saying you haven't but there is a good chance that one has not. another game i see this a lot with is quake. people love to hold quake as the most hardcore fps game and shit on other games like cs. a whole lot of those people are actually terrible and couldn't stand their own in a duel because they just like to name drop games online. same with ikaruga for shmups

>>5663915
can confirm, I praise wizardry but I never beat any of them

try and fucking stop me

>>5663898
>I've finished the rest
Including the untranslated cellphone ones?

>>5663935
The main series.
I know Japanese so not being translated is a non-issue. Haven't seen rips of the cellphone games though.
Wizardry1 and Wizardry2 sound interesting.

>>5663257
SMT had factions and branching.