/vr/ - Retro Games

>>558774

What?

There's a Secret of Mana 2 thread going on right now.

On top of that, there really isn't a general consensus here. There have been people defending Earthbound and Final Fantay games, you just only pay attention to the negative comments, OP

>>558803

>secret of mana
>good

>>558809
>any retro game ever
>good

Wait, this isn't /v/.

OP, any game you find fun is good.

Don't let others' opinions completely shape yours. I've played things I've been told were awful. Some ended up being really good, while others were just as awful as described.

Use your judgment on whether something is shit.

No, there are just people with different preferences.

The grinding in Dragon Quest is only bad in the first game. It gets much better as the series goes on.

At least from what I've experienced, anyway. I've only played the first three games, but it was already tolerable by the second game and I doubt the grinding would get worse as the series progressed.

>>558774
RPGs started to come in full swing around the SNES' lifespan for one simple reason. The SNES' CPU was too weak for any genre of game that wasn't platformers or RPGs. I dare say the NES was better at action games than the SNES could ever be.

>>558943

>Better at action games

are you high?

>>558954
The console that starts to flicker wildly when more than 2 sprites are onscreen is truly the ultimate platform for action games.

>>558774
>Honestly guys, is the JRPG flawed as a genre, or is there a group of RPGs I haven't heard about that are fucking awesome?
All games have their flaws. It wont matter if you enjoy the game. Stop taking people's opinions as fact and develop your own.

>>558963

maybe with some kush involved

>>558914
>3542 battles to learn all classes in Dragon Quest VI
>Not counting the battles before you unlock Dhama Shrine
I know you don't have to do it, but I had to.
Also I want to play DQ VII, but I'm scared.

>>558809
This is /vr/ dude.

Not a non-/vr/ board.

Get out of here with this overly snarky greentext horseshit.

You swine.

>>558976
Now, what could you possibly be scared of?

OP here, I love FFIX, Super Mario RPG, Dragon Warrior Monsters, and loved the shit out of Earthbound. Not /vr/ but I sucked Golden Sun's dick.

Whatever, I guess it is just opinions. I just find it weird because when a platformer is good everyone likes it, but with RPGs everyone's opinion can be so fractured.

I'm not asking you to tell me what to like, i'm just noting an observaton

>>558976
>I know you don't have to do it, but I had to.
That's not really fair since that's not expected of the player.

>>558995
>when a platformer is good everyone likes it

You clearly haven't seen the Mario World/2 vs. Donkey Kong Country/2 shitstorms here, have you?

>>558963
Dragon Fighter for the NES uses a really advanced flickering algorithm when the going gets too crazy. It's fairly enjoyable as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmMEjvQiso4

Looks much better when you're playing the actual game.

>>559015

I've seen some DKC hate speech, which I will NEVER understand how it's possible to hate those games, but the arguments are usually more around the graphics and feel than the gameplay.

>>558774
You don't need to grind in most RPG's , and grinding usually makes them easier. If you want a challenge, just fucking go for the story. And I still love the JRPG genre personally, you have to play for the story and innovations they bring to the table. Just dive into the games and be alone in a room and just PLAY the RPG

But OP all those series you mentioned have at least one spectacular game

Of course old jrpgs (with a couple exceptions) aren't going to have great combat, but they make up for it in other ways

I hate JRPG's. I find most to be low skill, low strategy, and boring in plot. I find that they are little more than interactive animes mostly, and the stories are the usual pulp tripe that comes from Japan.

THAT SAID

If you enjoy JRPGs, you shouldn't let my opinion bother you. I'm sure there are games I like that you hate.

>>559443
You have let your hate of a genre, blind you from good games, that you have never tried and never will.

>>558774

JRPGs are great. But they have their flaws, just like any genre.
In fact, every game has flaws, and if you want to be overly negative you can find things to complain about with any game.
And some people do.

You just gotta mellow out and take the bad with the good, maaaaaaaaan.

>>559456


I hate the genre and to me they aren't good games.

>>559509
How do you know if you haven't played them?

>>559525


I've played one or two and grew up watching them be played and following the stories.

>>558969
JRPG's are kiddie games. There, I said it. Most of us on here probably loved them as kids and teens, but reflecting on them as adults, its easy to see that they are bullshit. The "band of teenagers, the leader of which has amnesia and is an emo faggot, fight a never ending series of turn based battles to rid the world of evil" kind, at least. Japs can't tell stories, and turn based FF combat grows stale after the 10th or 15th game you play that utilizes it.

RPGs aren't games you play for challenge, you play them for character customization and progression. That applies to J and W.

>>559546
I still love JRPGs, what do you like to play? FPS? Sport Games?

>>559546

What genre does an "adult" play, then?

>>559546
>The "band of teenagers, the leader of which has amnesia and is an emo faggot, fight a never ending series of turn based battles to rid the world of evil" kind, at least

I refuse to believe an "adult" would be so stupid as to try and generalize a story and gameplay experience in one sentence like this. You're not being funny, and you're only doing yourself a disservice by doing it.

>>559593

Bravo

I mean, Dragon Quest V alone kind of shits on his idea of the genre.

It just goes to show he's never even played a jrpg

>>559582
CoD, and yells at little kids to suck his dick, because they are little bitch-ass faggots.

>>559576
/vr/ related:
any 2d castlevania, contra, zelda and similar games like the Legacy of Kain series, Fire Emblem and Advance Wars, puzzle games. Theres more but I'm not going to go too in depth

>>559593
I'm talking about a very specific kind of JRPG here, and don't pretend like you don't know exactly what I'm talking about.

Megaten is good
Chrono Trigger is good
Fire Emblem is good
Final Fantasy is bullshit.

>>559616
Dark/Demon Souls is good
Star Ocean is bullshit

>>559616
I had no idea that any of these characters were "emo teenaged faggots"

>>559616
>Chrono Trigger is good

But CT fits most of the criteria of what you hate. Just step down and admit you were generalizing and being a fuckhead.

>>558809
Stop being mad, John.

>>559643
There you go, pretending you don't know exactly what I'm talking about when I criticize a common trope in JRPGs. Yes, we all know FF1 didn't have a story (which, as in a lot of JRPG's cases, is more of a strength than a flaw)

If you wanna talk about FF1, how about the shit battle system. Why did they make the game so retarded that if a targeted enemy was defeated before a character could execute his turn, he would just strike at thin air?

And why not consider the fact that I wasn't calling out every single RPG ever put out by every Japanese company ever
>Most of us on here probably loved them as kids and teens, but reflecting on them as adults, its easy to see that they are bullshit. The "band of teenagers, the leader of which has amnesia and is an emo faggot, fight a never ending series of turn based battles to rid the world of evil" kind, at least. Japs can't tell stories, and turn based FF combat grows stale after the 10th or 15th game you play that utilizes it.
>The "band of teenagers, the leader of which has amnesia and is an emo faggot, fight a never ending series of turn based battles to rid the world of evil" kind, at least.
Learn to comprehension.

>>559643
Garland is the protypical emo faggot.
Just look at the way he hangs out all alone in some abandoned basement, trying to turn himself into a demon or some shit.

>>559678
The battle system in Chrono Trigger was fucking awesome. The story is riddled with JRPG cliches, but its a really fun game nonetheless

>>559691
>Yes, we all know FF1 didn't have a story

Except it did.

>>559616

Let's analyze entry by entry, starting with one you consider "good."

Chrono Trigger:
Band of teenagers
fight a never ending series of turn based battles to rid the world of evil

FF1:
fight a never ending series of turn based battles to rid the world of evil

FF2:
fight a never ending series of turn based battles to rid the world of evil

FF3:
fight a never ending series of turn based battles to rid the world of evil

FF4:
fight a never ending series of turn based battles to rid the world of evil

FF5:
fight a never ending series of turn based battles to rid the world of evil

FF6:
fight a never ending series of turn based battles to rid the world of evil

FF7:
the leader of which has amnesia
fight a never ending series of turn based battles to rid the world of evil

FF8:
band of teenagers
the leader is an emo faggot*
fight a never ending series of turn based battles to rid the world of evil

FF9:
fight a never ending series of turn based battles to rid the world of evil

FF10:
the leader is an emo faggot*
fight a never ending series of turn based battles to rid the world of evil

FF12:
None

FF13:
fight a never ending series of turn based battles to rid the world of evil

*While they both start off as "brooding," they do develop as characters over the course of the game. I listed it just to give you the benefit of the doubt.

So why does FF fit into your bullshit generalization while CT does not? I don't get it.

>>559706
see
>>559704

>>559704
>The battle system in Chrono Trigger was fucking awesome

>3 command battle system
>No customization or whatsoever
>Awesome
Your points are so fucking stupid.

It's all part of a backlash that's been going on for years now. Back in the 90s and early 00s, JRPGs were practically worshiped by hardcore gamers (casuals didn't care). Just browse through old gaming magazines like EGM from back then and you'll see a clear bias towards JRPGs.

Somewhere along the line, people decided JRPGs were "weaboo shit" and that fanfare was replaced by hatred. JRPGs are now one of those genres that is more hated than loved at the moment.

>>559728
I enjoyed it so whatever.

If you want to keep beating a dead horse and playing tired ass JRPGs, fine with me. Doesn't change the fact that they have uniquely lame and childish plots, and sometimes-good-but-mostly-shitty gameplay.

>>559732
Or you know people pick and choose which games they find fun.

>>559759

But CT shares a lot with most of these games you're shitting on.

>>559759

I want you to explain why the inclusion of teenagers, a gloomy protagonist, and a save-the-world goal automatically makes the story "lame and childish." And "I've seen it before" is not a good enough explanation.

>>559706
>implying Terra didn't have amnesia AND was emo
>implying Cloud wasn't emo
>implying Cecil wasn't emo
Stay delusional, weaboo

>>559780
"I've seen it before" isn't a good enough explanation when its the plot of 75% of JRPG's, not to mention animes that come out of Japan?

>>559732

my opinion hasn't changed over the course of the years

I love jrpgs, though there are some bad ones. Not all are good. See:

>Beyond the Beyond
>Drakkhen
>Shadow Madness
>Final Fantasy Mystic Quest(sorry /vr/ but this game sucks. Its FF for babbies.
>Lagoon
>Silver
>Quest 64
>

>>559732
Finally someone who knows what they are talking about

>>559576
>FPS? Sport Games?


I've noticed there's a weird bias from JRPG fans to really hate FPSs and Sports Games. sports Games I can understand, since the Western perception is largely EA stuff (ironically, the Japanese love quirky sports games), but what's with the hate on FPSs?

>>559801

"I've seen it before" does not make something "lame childish". It makes it cliched.

Christ, would it kill you to read his posts?

>>559704
8/10 post. i leled

>>559809
even when it concerns teenagers, amnesia, (possibly) a school setting, and thickly caked on melodrama?

>>559792
>anyone that's conflicted is automatically emo
>anyone that has their memories erased automatically has amnesia

Stop.

>>559801

The problem is that you completely ignore EVERYTHING else about the game to focus on these one aspects. The best example to illustrate my point is Xenogears. For at least one point in the game, it could conceivably fit all of the conditions you laid out. And yet there's so fucking much more to the story, and so much more to the characters. It would make me honestly sad for a person to dismiss the game with a silly sentence like that and not experience it with an open mind.

>>559818
realistfag vs fantasyfag

>>559839
>(presumably) a grown man speaking this passionately
>about the storyline of a Japanese videogame
I'm done with this thread. I'm going to go play Tetris, or Super Metroid, or R-Type. Something that isn't bogged down with a gay ass story written for the enjoyment of 16 year olds

>>559880
Dont get mad about video games bro

What's up with all the recent Earthbound hate? Sure we all know it's overpriced as shit at the moment, but it's not like it's a bad game at all.

>>559915

Hype backlash.

>>559923
Makes sense

>>559813
I'll never get why some folks out there say that JRPGs aren't as imaginative or as good as they used to be. Combine that list with the assload of Japan-only FC/SFC Dragon Quest clones based on anime or whatever, and one will see the loose genre has always had its stinkers.

Though I think Drakkhen was a port of a western CRPG. Just makes me realize there were a ton of crappy DOS/Amiga WRPGs out there too. There's just so many ways to screw up an RPG and so little ways to make them truly outstanding.

>JRPG
>a genre
What makes a WRPG or a JRPG? Wizardry is the father of both; JRPGs are just iterations of Wizardry with a 3rd person camera and pretty animations.

>>558774
It is a severely flawed genre from a gameplay standpoint, not because it has flaws that are unfixable - no, quite the contrary, none of the developers is eager to fix them, probably because muh nostalgia. Also because japanese gamers are retarded and able to object to even small changes - seriously, a game like FFXII didn't even change THAT much about the series' battle system, and it got a severe backlash because of it. Yet it made important improvements everywhere - no more annoying random encounters, battles are ATB-esque yet this time positioning is also rather important, no idiotic 10-second battle transitions, no need for unnecessary button strokes if you just want to spam attack for example since the game repeats the action by itself...

That said however, the SaGa series is very valuable in its iconoclastic approach to the genre and despite a few duds in the series, it deserves the highest of praises for what it intends to do.

>>559968
This is not really true. While Wizardry might have been at the roots of it, JRPGs (especially modern ones) are about as removed from it as f.e. Arma 2 is removed from Doom. The only japanese devs that strongly adhere to the Wizardry model nowadays are Atlus and Team Muramasa.

>>559984

FF12 was also unfinished and had extremely little variety in gameplay. A boring game without battle transitions and the addition of positioning to a few boss fights is still a boring game. It's just a little more convenient.

>>560009
>extremely little variety in gameplay.
So, like every FF ever? At least this one doesn't interrupt your exploration by shoving you into a 10-second battle transition to a 30-second rudimentary enemy fight every 15 steps.

>>560021
>So, like every FF ever?

Aside from 1, 2, and 13, 12 has the least variety in gameplay. I'll use IZJS to illustrate my point, since it does me the favor of breaking up the license board into jobs. 8 of the twelve jobs do their damage physically. And yet, instead of all having unique abilities, the only thing that changes is weapon types, and the optimal strategy for damage dealing with all 8 of them is to simply auto attack. None of them have cool and useful abilities that come as a benefit to their class. Compare to something like FFT, where the jobs get completely unique skillsets and play nothing alike. That's what I mean by little variety, and it really, really hurt FF12's enjoyment factor for me.

pokemon is a good jrpg...

>>560074
FFT is beside the main series, and is more of a Tactics Ogre game than a Final Fantasy. And in almost all FFs you're still pressing attack to win 80% of the time, outside of boss battles - FF4, 5 (or replace attack here with anything more preferable and spammable), 6, 7 etc. are all guilty of this. Again, I'm not saying that FF12 is a good, flawless game per se, I'm saying that it's a step in the right direction that will only very seldom be followed now because of the backlash.

>>560095

I was using FFT as an example of a game with variety, not as a counterexample to your "like every FF ever" point.

Sure, in most FFs you can certainly get by using nothing but attack and healing if you want to play that way, but I find playing like that extremely boring, so I make use of the other abilities that they give me. FF12 doesn't give me any other abilities. It's either auto attack or magic. And, if you'll forgive me for going out on a tangent, using magic has its own problem in that if there's too much special effects present on the screen, the game will forcefully delay all of your magic until the special effects disappear, and enemies in the late game frequently use magic that completely fills up this effect capacity.

>>559576
>Hating on sports games
Nigga hush. Fire Pro Wrestling produces better matches than anything Vince and creative can on Raw.

>>558774
>JRPG
>genre

>>558774
Militant hatred is often a lot more outspoken than polite opinions, which is why you tend to notice it a lot more.

I don't enjoy jRPG's much myself. There are some exceptions, like Skies of Arcadia, but those are few and far between. I've always liked the feel of western cRPG's much more, since they tend to have a little more depth to character creation and development.

>>559984
FF11 had those little improvements as a necessity of the genre years before FF12's release, so FF12 doesn't even get the honor of implementing those improvements except for placing it in a single player context. Poor FF12, many things went wrong there.

On the subject of SaGa though, I do find it interesting that Kawazu was involved with FF1. While it was a basic game mechanically, he did coin the concept of "let the player create whatever party they want and experiment".

I think that's what really defines many JRPGs most cases. Kazawu's philosophy encourages the player to be very hands on with the game, trying to gut the mechanics apart and figure things for themselves. Compare this to something like FF4 or Legend of Dragoon or many SFC RPGs, where control is taken away from the player as much as possible.

>>560180
>he did coin the concept of "let the player create whatever party they want and experiment".

And by this, I mean for JRPGs, not that there were many at the time in the first place. It was a bit more flexable than the well received Wizardry's debut there, as you don't nearly have as much freedom in party building there.

>>560095
Honestly, a fuckton of JRPGs have this problem. Should there just be more variation of attacks? I know some JRPGs have an "auto" or "speed up" option, but isn't that just sort of a shit solution to a bigger problem.

>>560174

>western RPGs have more deph to character creation and development

Creation definitely. Development? No. Not by a long shot. Take a good look at Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Diablo, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Fable,, etc.

See, those games are all great in one way or the other, but lets be honest, if your character is a blank slate, then how are they developing? Sure, you have games like KoToR or Vampire but when you get right down to it, its really difficult to say "Western RPGs have better character development" when the most popular and revered WRPGs don't have much character development because you're a blank slate. You're you. You're supposed to be ROLE PLAYING.

JRPGs on the other hand force you into a certain character. A lot of the times you even have specific lines. You can see it as role playing with a script present.

Basically what I'm saying is that WRPGs only have "better" development if you happen to be RPing and have crafted a masterpiece of RP material to go along with the game, and for some reason I doubt most people do that.

Case closed.

>>560201

I think he was referring to development from a gameplay standpoint, not story.

>>560195
I'm gonna go as far to say it's an RPG problem in general.

All those Diablo clones pretty much have the player spamming the same skill, only real difference is that it's not in a turn-based context.

I'd say it's a problem with single-character focused RPGs too, but that's a disservice to say that something like The Elder Scroll's combat can be compared to the options in a roguelike.

>>560195

>WRPG have more variety for attacks
>Play Elder ScrooOOOOLS
>Two slash/bash attacks and a power attack per weapon
>Bow
>Magic limited to summoning other creatures to find with their own AI(Boring unless used in conjuction with something else) and using varying levels of three element trees.
>That's it

yeah JRPGs sure have limited variety by comparison

>>560205

>Character creation AND development

That's not how english works. And is a conjuction man.

Development from a gameplay standpoint? What do you mean? The development of WRPG gameplay is better? If so, that's a really shitty way of saying that, and I really don't think that's what he was trying to say.

>>560229

Character development (gameplay) would be referring to something like skill trees. The way your character progresses and gets stronger.

>>560206

>2003
>Never play Diablo before
>Friend gets addicted to it
>Suggest we play together
>I'm always down to try new things
>Fun at first, grabbin' loot, taking down dungeons and monsters with my bro
>Three days later, I find myself spamming the same skill. Notice he's doing the same thing
>Talk to other people, its what they do too, and it works, most other shit is situational
>Realize I'm just addicted to loot
>quit playing
>Friend keeps playing
>He still plays to this day, only its Diablo III
>Says he hates it but plays it anyway because of loot
>He never leaves his house to do other shit and doesn't play any vidya other than Diablo/League of Legends
>I lost a friend over Diablo

>>560237

Oh. Yeah, it can be and I agree with that. Having preset stats can be pretty boring.

That's why I love Dragon Quest VIII, you can distribute points to get specific skills with specific weapons and shit. Good stuff.

>>559706
>FF12:
>None

Choice is obvious.

>>560180
>On the subject of SaGa though, I do find it interesting that Kawazu was involved with FF1. While it was a basic game mechanically, he did coin the concept of "let the player create whatever party they want and experiment".

I really really wish they did more with Romancing SaGa series because it's probably the closest thing to a sandbox JRPG.

>>560201
>Basically what I'm saying is that WRPGs only have "better" development if you happen to be RPing and have crafted a masterpiece of RP material to go along with the game, and for some reason I doubt most people do that.

Roleplaying? In a ROLE-PLAYING GAME? You don't fucking say.

>>560267

Once again

>and is a conjuction

What that means is that the phrase before and after it are linked.

Let me rephrase it for you:

>WRPGs only have "better" development if you happen to be RPing in addition to having crafted a masterpiece of RP material to go along with the game

Didn't you people ever pay attention in English class? Or were you too busy playing your Game Gear?

>>560215
I'm not saying that, I'm saying fodder enemies in JRPGs tend to be a boring attack fest, the real reward is within the actual boss fights.

New enemies are only fun when they're a threat, but they quickly go from threat to "hit A to continue".

At least Earthbound had enemies that would avoid you when you reached a specific level above them.

>>560257
Or just SaGa in general. One thing I really want to have come back is different races developing in different ways, which the Romancing series lacks, though is still excellent (with my favorite JRPG being the Romancing SaGa remake).

He really nails it with a lot of those games, lets you experiment with races, attacks, to even where to go. Some people find that terrible, but they don't get is that you can truly make the game yours, it really is your experience and it will be different if everyone plays it blind.

>>560215
TES is shit. A horrible example to pick.

And even the WRPGs with shit combat at least have a plenty of stuff to do outside of battles. JRPGs in general are way too much combat-centric; I don't remember a JRPG that explicitly needed you to do a stat check for an action outside of battle, for example. That's why it's much more painful to have bad combat in a JRPG than in a WRPG.

>>560335
Unlimited Saga did this heavily with all actions on the field. But that isn't retro.

>>560335

>TES is a horrible example

How? When it demonstrates my point perfectly and is easily the most recognizable WRPG? Not to mention, its been copied a lot, even by JRPGs(Dark/Demon's Souls).

Still, you do have a point with yourlast three sentences.

>>560329
>Some people find that terrible, but they don't get is that you can truly make the game yours, it really is your experience and it will be different if everyone plays it blind.
Not to mention replayable. Seriously, replayability is the worst problem of the entire subgenre. Going through all that frequent random encounter bullshit and long-winded cutscenes only to end up with the exact same characters, kill the bosses in the exact same way as before, follow the exact same route as before despite already having in-universe knowledge of how I could avoid it and listen to the exact same story that didn't even interest me the first time through? Fuck that shit.

>>560341
>Unlimited Saga

>>560341
>one JRPG avoid the problem
>in a sea of JRPGs that indulge in it
I even like Unlimited Saga, but come on.

>>560361
Sadly that is true. Wish more did so. Star Ocean games do this as well, too bad I can't think of anything else really.

>>560353
So you've picked a convenient example that displays the worst flaws of the genre just to suit your point? How fair of you.

Also
>TES
>most recognizable WRPG
In the same way that CoD is the most recognizable FPS.

>>559880
>Concerned about adulthood
>Throws tantrum

>>560357

>I've played through FFVI, DQV, FFIX, Tales of Vesperia, Blue Dragon and Tales of Symphonia multiple times and enjoyed it each time
>implying jrpgs can't be replayable

>>560375
>implying that just because you've replayed a game a few times it has heavy replay value
How many times have you played them in a row? If zero, then how long were the intervals inbetween your separate runs? Replayability isn't "I've played this game a few years ago so I'll flash it again just for nostalgia", it's something like in Civilization or roguelikes where you play it again and again and again, even if you've just finished it.

>>560367
Weren't the skills in Star Ocean just passive boosts of your characters' stats?

>>560386
I think you can gather herbs on the field along with cooking skills as well.

>>560371

>So you've picked a convenient example that displays the worst flaws of the genre just to suit your point? How fair of you.

So it should take a lot of effort to provide a good example? This isn't about being 'fair'. I'm being objective here, just like you're being objective of jrpgs. The difference is that I'm not butthurt over it. The fact is is that games like FF/DQ set the standards that you pointed out for JRPGs in the same way that games like TES set the standard for WRPGs, and yes, lets be real here, TES has been copied a lot, even by japanese developers.

>In the same way that CoD is the most recognizable FPS

If by that you mean that its the most recognizable WRPG then all you're doing is repeating yourself. It is clear cut and dry, more people know about and try to copy TES than any other WRPG. This, in a sense, makes it the standard in the same way that CoD is. And yes, CoD is by far the most recognizable FPS. How many clones has CoD gotten? A lot.

You'r letting your personal taste get in the way of the job your frontal lobe is supposed to be doing.

>>560384

I don't replay those games just for nostalgia. I replay them because they're fun to play. You can also make different parties of characters and, you know.

Civilization isn't a WRPG man

>>560384

Also nice strawman. Why so argumentative? All I said was that jrpgs can have replayablity, not that they have heavy replay value.

Stop reading into implications that aren't there just so you can argue more.

>>560392
I think he means once you beat the game you instantly start a new file and play through it a total of two, three times in a row without any other games in between.

>>560401

Well, yeah. With the tales games specifically after I beat it I turned in all my Grade that I gathered for New Game+ perks and then started a new game.

>>560353
>TES
>similar to Dark Souls

Because both are action RPGs? I don't see a link between the two in any other aspects.

Also using arguably the worst combat in a WRPG to show that JRPG combat is fine is sort of silly.

Still, you're really grasping from what I was initally saying, JRPGs tend to have a universal problem with you just hacking away at fodder enemies to get to the fun parts of the game.

>>560389
But everybody knows that WRPGs have gone down the drain recently, just like FPS did. Aside from the most money-grubbing viewpoint, they're completely irrelevant genres now - unless those WRPG shitstarters deliver, that is.

And how is picking one of the worst examples of the subgenre objective in anyway? A fuckton of JRPGs revel in the problem, not just the most egregious ones.

>>560392
There's little difference inbetween parties in FF6, for example. And even in the others there's only so many combinations of "classes" (sometimes embodied by individual chaaracters) that you can use in order to switch tactics even so slightly.
>Civilization isn't a WRPG man
Yet a lot of WRPGs could learn from it.
>>560395
If that's the case, then every single game ever made could be considered as "replayable".

>>560424

Yep. If you like a game a lot, its probably replayable.

Is this difficult to understand? Do you find this impossible?

I actually like video games, do you?

>people actually thinking RPGs compare to the difficulty of fightans, RTS, arena shooters, shmups, rhythm
fucking nope

rpgs are story-driven games with very light strategy elements

>>560419

>to show that JRPG combat is fine

To a lot of people, it is. If you don't like JRPGs, that's fine. Don't play them. Not everyone has the same tastes. There is something known as "subjectivity", you know.

>>560440
Resorting to argumentum ad populum? A "lot of people" are perfectly fine with combat in Skyrim too, you know.

>>560419

You're right, about that last bit and DS but how isn't JRPG combat "fine" if people enjoy it?

I mean, fuck. One of my favorite games ever is The Witcher, another one of my favorite games is DQV.

There is room for them to coexist, you know.

Play Ys you swine

Also megaten games are decent

>>560452
And hasn't it passed through your mind that perhaps those two games would be even better if the combat was handled better (at least in DQ, can't speak for Witcher)?

>>560447

You're pretty arrogant, aren't you? Tell me, what is an example of a game with a combat system that is objectively "fine" then?

Also, argumentum ad populum refers to "The Will of the many". I'm pretty sure that the majority of people don't appreciate JRPG combat, so no, I'm not resorting to argumentum ad populum. You best get your logical fallacies straight.

>>560454
>don't like combat in JRPGs? How about you play this hack 'n' slash with rudimentary JRPG elements to show how wrong you are, you swine

>>560424
I really hope those shitstarter games are solid. Wasteland 2 looks fantastic so far.

It's just every AAA game now has to appeal to as many people as possible, so they dumb them down hard and add a lot of action to genre's that didn't really even have them before.

RPGs really have died off, just the definition of an RPG has been spread so goddamn thin that every other game is an RPG now.

>>560458

Not really, because I enjoy the combat in DQ. I like turned based gameplay.

Should everything be in real-time? How would you personally handle DQ combat, anon? I'm curious.

>>559691
>turn based FF combat grows stale after the 10th or 15th game you play that utilizes it.
There are people that have played more than 1000 matches of LoL, and still enjoy it's gameplay. The same could be said for FF. Just because you find it to be stale, doesn't mean all will.

>>560447

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

well don't you look silly

>>560471

I have friends that quit playing what I feel are real video games for LoL, and they quit hanging out with me because I feel like its a dumbed down RTS and won't play it and when I call them out on playing ONLY LoL for 3 years straight almost every day, I get called out on being an asshole.

So obviously the shoe is in my mouth, not theirs. They're the ones having fun with it.

>>560460
>I'm pretty sure that the majority of people don't appreciate JRPG combat
So you're contradicting yourself now?

>Tell me, what is an example of a game with a combat system that is objectively "fine" then?
I'm pretty sure you won't find a single person in your lifetime that'll think that at least the IDEA of the combat in Wizardry 8 isn't better than the previous entries of the series, or the vast majority of JRPGs by extent.

Hard to be perfectly objective without people knowing of these games nowadays. They see stuff like FF as the pinnacle of RPG combat mainly due to inexperience.

>>560470
That's not what I'm saying. DQ combat is problematic because that despite needing no reflexes it requires very little thought. 80% of the game is mashing the A button to rape random encounters.

>>560485

When did I EVER say the majority of people appreciated JRPG combat or anything of the sort?

>Wizardry 8

Good choice(though I never finished it, thanks for reminded me it exists), but when you get right down to it: You can't be objective with this stuff. So why try?

>trying to be objective
>with exclusively subjective matters

humans amuse me

>>560483
Well, I can pretty much understand why you would think it's a dumbed down RTS, but you know, one of the basis of many JRPGs is this turn-based system. And honestly, as long as you add variety and creative elements within them, it does become an interesting and still bearable style of battle. You can't just call every single FF shitty because they happen to use the same basic "shitty turn-based system" everytime.

>>560493
>When did I EVER say the majority of people appreciated JRPG combat or anything of the sort?
In >>560440,
>>to show that JRPG combat is fine
>To a lot of people, it is.
So make up your mind already. Do most people enjoy the combat, or they don't?

>You can't be objective with this stuff. So why try?
Absolute objectivity is impossible since there are even people that like the combat of DQ1. But there are certain things that can make the game have a much bigger appeal for a bigger pool of people (inb4 I get called out for supporting "casualization") via stuff like having more combat elements to tinker with, handing the flow of the combat less to the RNG and more to the player (the guy that's supposed to be -playing- the game, as opposed to watching RNG do almost everything for him), allowing you to take a variety of tactics and stances in combat, depending on what the player prefers to be doing.

>>560440
>>560452
So am I the only person tired of wading through trash enemies to get to the fun parts of games? I enjoy the genre, but I feel like this is a real problem and most games don't bother to address it. I'm running through the PC version of the last remnant and even it has this problem, but it sticks out more due to the fact that each fight takes a long time.

I'm just saying that it's a fair complaint, and saying someone should avoid the genre because of 1 issue is silly. Maybe I just have a low tolerance for it, so I'll have to space out how many JRPGs I play.

>>560518

>"To a lot of people"
>Suddenly means "most"

Go to bed. You're clearly not able to comprehend what you're reading.

>>560525
I feel the same brah. One of the more enjoyable JRPGs I've played recently is Dragon Quest 3, and I think it was precisely because despite being littered with trash combat, at least the combat was fast enough that you got it over with quickly. It's also a reason why I prefer the early Wizardry games to pretty much all JRPGs despite being older and arguably more basic than the entire damn genre.

>>560547
Then why even make that point at all? A lot of people like eating shit, does that mean shit is good for your health?

>>560525
>>560551

Well if you don't like trash mobs then how do you make it fun? Do you remove them entirely so only bosses are in the game and you randomly get stat increases somehow? Or do you just make trash overpowered?

Really, what would you do?

>>560554

Health is something that can be objective, you twat. Are you even thinking before you post?

>>560554

You're comparing game taste to health? The fuck?

>>560554
Shit will make you sick. Playing video games won't, unless they require you to do insane things, such as playing for 10 hours nonstop.

>>560559
Multiple solutions.
1. FFXII style, make them physically present in the world and avoidable by passing around them.
2. Make the trash encounters strong enough so that you can't just ignore them by mindlessly pressing one option, and make them able to change their tactics every once in a while so you don't "solve" an encounter you have to face multiple times in the exact same way every time.
3. Earthbound style, at a certain point of power even the game recognizes that they're a waste of time and skips them for you.
4. Only keep mandatory one-off encounters that never respawn, such as bosses or SRPG story battles. (this creates a problem with replayability though)

>>560561
CAN be objective, not always IS objective. Certain aspects of RPG combat CAN be objective too.

>>560579
Playing DQ1 made me sick.

>>560589
Did you literally get sick, though?

>>560559
Make less enemies overall, make each fight more significant, make it so weak enemies avoid you more readily. It's not an impossible problem to overcome.

Or make fights fast like >>560551 said.

Suppose the golden era of JRPGs is sort of at an end though. Odd to think they were once the AAA mainstream games out there.

>>560592
Kind of. I felt increasingly nauseous until I turned it off. Few games made me feel like playing them is a complete waste of time and mindnumbing repetitive work more than DQ1 did.

>>560589

>Desperately trying to make his argument work

Health can't be compared to RPG combat you fucking idiot

>>560589

FFXII was a terrible game and you should be stoned for even mentioning it

I agree with 2 and 3 heavily though

>>560629
You guys argued that health is objective. Well guess what, it really isn't all that much.
WHO definition of health:
> The World Health Organization (WHO) defined health in its broader sense in 1946 as "a state of complete physical, mental, and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity."
Thus in many ways rooted in a person's subjective state as opposed to how he's viewed objectively.

>>560630
A lot of games follow that model though, I've only mentioned FFXII because it's a famous example of a game transitioning from random encounters into avoidable physical ones.

>>560618
How on earth could you possibly not like DQ1? Some of the cheesiest fun I've ever had.

>>560589
>CAN be objective, not always IS objective. Certain aspects of RPG combat CAN be objective too.

Anything can be objective when you're clear about what you're talking about. Or to put it another way, when you're actually referring to something: it will always be what it is. People usually aren't clear though, so you get two people talking about completely different things mistaking their disagreement for proof that something isn't objective.

The real subjectivity comes from the fact that no matter how objective your claim is, no one has to give a shit. Eating shit's not good for your health? Doesn't mean much to someone not concerned about their health. Enemy patterns are objectively repetitive so you don't like it? Doesn't mean shit to someone who doesn't mind the repetition.

You can complain about the games you don't like, and it could be a useful warning for people who are like you. But since you're looking for games to enjoy, it might make more sense to find the games that match your taste rather than shake fists at the ones which don't.

Don't like combat? Try an RPG that doesn't focus on action, like a photography game.(Snap Kids)

Don't like bands of kids saving the world? Try an RPG with a different story, like a sports RPG.(vatroller X)

Want a little more strategy involved in your random battles? Try a game with a card game combat system(Kotobattle)


Want open ended game design? Try something (world neverland).

Want something old school? Try the dungeon crawlers that take after Wizardry? Don't want a game that focuses on narrative? Try the many roguelikes.

Think typical action RPGs are kind of stale? Try a belt scroll action RPG.


The other half of there being a lot of games to complain about is that there are plenty of exceptions as well. Try to find them. If they're not in English yet, then make a fuss like you did when you wanted to play Seiken Densetsu 3 or whatever.

>>560642
Well, I think people are looking at health as in getting a sickness or hurting your feet. If you eat a pile of shit, there will be lots of microbes that will fuck you up and make you sick, probably. But no matter which game you play (most of the time), it's not like you'll surely get sick of it. Almost anyone that eats a shit will probably get sick, but there won't be a case where almost everyone will literally get sick because they've played a specific game. (disconsidering the amount of time spent on it)

>>560667
I've played four Ultima games recently (to give you credit, at least two of them were even worse than DQ1), I'm already overeaten with all the thees and thous to give a shit.

>>560668
The problem here is though, that even the people that enjoy those games complain about the little annoyances in them like something that I've mentioned. The fact that for those people these things aren't significant enough to ruin their game experience doesn't negate the fact that they're present and visible. You seem to think that I'm trying to destroy the entire game model when I'm only suggesting how to fix something that the majority of people views as broken.

>>560668
>belt scroll action RPG
Also, what the hell are these?

>>558943
>RPGs started to come in full swing around the SNES' lifespan for one simple reason.
JRPGs, you mean.

>Hard
>Turn based rpg
Nope. Not possible. There's just easy, or unbalanced and not worth playing.

>>561535
What about the Goldbox games?

I like JRPGs, but I won't deny that most of them are way too easy. The only one in years that even attempted to send me to a game over screen was Strange Journey.

>>559732

Maybe that's because the JRPG fanbase was and is still is just as obnoxious

>>559780
It tries to mix in"deep and meaningful" Themes with WACKY SEXUAL HYJINKS that were as if a 14 year old took a shot at writing it.

>>559818
Right now, there's a huge perception that games like call of duty is ruining the industry, and not the dipshit developers who keep trying to copy cod. See also: Homefront
weebs hold that view as well because they seem to think call of duty is killing JRPGS in the west, when in reality, it's because the cost of development has soared through the roof due to the concept being outdated and the fact that dev costs are going through the roof.

Incidentally, dev costs are also why there's a glut of cod games.

As far as genres are concerned, at the very bottom of my preference list would be JRPGs. By any remotely intelligent criteria imaginable they are the worst games ever, and this is not a result of incompetence on the part of specific developers, but inherent in the core ruleset around which the whole subgenre is built, to the extent that if you were dead set on making a GOOD JRPG you'd necessarily end up either encroaching on some other genre/subgenre, or inventing a new one: you'd have to renounce some of the core rules that define the subgenre, and thus transcend it.

>>559732
I still remember Gamepro basically saying Earthbound was shit because of the graphics and "adultish" humor. Ahh, to be 10 again.

>>559706
i
Hey Final Fantasy VII was a masterp ece.

>>562185
No, that would be sports games.

>>562203
The i was supposed to be over the r. Hate autotext wrap should be you see what you get.

>>562185
It's okay not to like a genre, but your persona opinions and preferences =/= fact. I like them, you don't so let's agree to disagree. Also, Star Ocean did what you said, and while not completely an RPG (during random battles you can run around and play like a beat 'em up) was still a great game. Final Fantasy XII is even less of an RPG, but still a good game.

Why do people assume that JRPG equals turn based battles? There are plenty of games where that's not the case.

Personally, I think the best RPG battle system ever would have to consist of

SMT3's Strategic Press turn system.
Paper Mario's context-Action Commands
and Mother 3's Rhythm System.

If anyone knows games of this kind, please recommend.

I FUCKING
HATE
ATB.

>>562223
Nah, JRPGs are pretty much objectively bad as far as I'm concerned, though my opinion might change If I ever decided for whatever reason to really get into JRPGs (perhaps after a sports accident that left me comatose for life...)

>>562223
For me the bottom tier are platformers, like Sonic because they're basically throwaway games that, while fun, aren't to be taken seriously. Strider, Kid Chameleon, Mario, all had good points, but I got my ass handed to me more times than I'd like to count to a set of three pulsars, who hit the entire party really hard. This was in Phantasy Star II, whose only problem I have is not enough bosses and Parma blowing up, effectively removing a potentially awesome environment from later installments.

>>562246
>objectively
>my opinion

>>562246
Well I like them. In some you could mix and match party roles, others have fixed classes, some are futuristic and spacey while others are medieval, while Earthbound and Final Fantasy VII are more modern settings, while FFVIII is more 5 minutes into the future. Different settings, bonus dungeons, skills, evil gods that could wipe out the universe, and even in Dragon Warrior VII the Judeo-Christian god is a bonus boss, and even if I hated RPGs this alone would redeem them for me.

>Start up a jrpg
>Undubbed intro starts blaring through my ears
>Turn off system, take game out, and shelve it.

What's the best JRPG on the Segata Saturn?

>>560471
>There are people that have played more than 1000 matches of LoL
1000 matches =/= a full playthrough of an RPG. Even if you equate that to hours it's only around 200-300. Also it's not turn-based.

sage because LoL is shit.

>>562364
It's comparable then, average JRPG is about 30 hours long.

> Also it's not turn-based
So?

>>562364
All he's saying is that some people don't get tired of the same thing over and over if they really like it.

>>562440
>30 hours
I'd argue about 60, variable depending on the console and time of release.
There is also the fact that you are constantly playing with human players competitively, so social interaction that is there which is hard to simulate in an RPG.

> Also it's not turn-based
>So?

I'd find you a pretty interesting person, if you found turn based combat exciting that is.

(Look I'll be frank, you can't compare them)

>>562493
Social interaction in LoL boils down to strangers yelling at you though.

>>562364
>Even if you equate that to hours it's only around 200-300.

Every RPG isn't DQ7

>>562478
>not getting tired of the same thing over and over
That's called "being dull".

And it's true. Some people are really, really dull.

>>562298
Not sure, all of the ones that got translated seem somewhat shitty. You probably won't count Guardian Heroes since it's more of a beat 'em up.

>>562529
>You probably won't count Guardian Heroes since it's more of a beat 'em up.
Yeah, like Street Fighter II is more of a fighting game, or Warcraft 2 is more of an RTS. He probably wouldn't count any of those as RPGs.

>>562523
It seems you're really bent on elevating yourself above those filthy, tasteless JRPG fans.

>>562239
>Paper Mario's context-Action Commands
>Mother 3's Rhythm System
Oh God, you are kidding right? That's everything I don't want in a RPG, and the worst point in Mother 3.

>>562519
Kicking God's ass is totally worth the long playing time though.

>>562579

You kidding? The rhythm system was part of what made Mother 3 feel fresh.

The only issue is that it needed to be played on a cart to get the rhythm down exactly, but it was possible on an emulator after a while.

>>562656
Repulsive, it miss the point of a RPG. The game should reward you for exploration, they missed that.

Who cares what other people think? This isn't /v/. All that matters iis that you enjoy these games and there are plenty of like-minded people here.

>>562549
That actually would've been pretty funny had Guardian Heroes not had RPG elements.

>>558979
>implying greentext isn't allowed in /vr/

>>558979
>Implying /vr/ isn't also /v/
You're the newborn of the family, someday, you'll understand.

It's the same with both JRPG and WRPG, to begin with RPG is such a broad definition. One guy could like one type of JRPGs and think the other kind is boring. I myself don't like either Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy and I played and enjoyed plenty of JRPGs.

>>563183
Yeah, it's a really mixed bag. Chrono Trigger, Tactics Ogre, Ys, Etrian Odyssey, Devil Summoner and Makai Kingdom are all technically JRPG, yet have little in common.

>Not making your own opinions

>>563265
>Not listening to recommendations

>>558886
>>558904
>>558909
>>558969
All these are what I take to heart the most. Some people like some things, others don't. It's all based on what you like.

I enjoy rpg's, so I play them. There are some I like, and some I don't. That is that.

>>563464
Surely even in your favorite games there are elements that you think could've been done better.

>>563464

>>558809
SoM is good.
SnD3 however can be argued over, as it have some rather annoying flaws.

>>558914
DQ actually got grindier from 1 to 2 and to 2 to 3.

>>564937
What flaws do you have in mind?

Oh I love me some jrpgs, but they are piss easy if you're a dedicated autist, same with wrpgs, or any game with stat modification through an exp/leveling system. That being said, I play them primarily because I lack the reflexes of a god and the dedication of a monk required to be competitive in any other game; they're games that you can play while multitasking and function more like puzzles. Now the puzzle claim may seem outrageous, but the purpose of an rpg, j or w, is to exploit the mechanics in the most functional way possible through dedication and repetitive action. This differs from shooters/fighters/racers/platformers because it is a primarily cerebral activity, the a-button does just about everything in a traditional rpg, whereas reflexes are the primary concern of other types of games. Now of course there are hybrids of multiple genres, but the experience in an jrpg is like reading an interactive book usually a shallow one while a wrpg is like a choose-your-own-adventure. Now I can see why people don't like either, for various reasons, but if you want to play through a b-movie with grinding, grab a jrpg, and if you want more control, grab a wrpg.

The problem I have with most JRPGs:

When the game throws you a challenge, it's usually in the form of you fighting something that is capable of killing off your party members faster than you are able to heal them. Given that you can carry an almost unlimited number of healing potions, mana potions, and have the ability to revive members with items (Often cheap ones) and spells, the only way for an enemy to pose a threat is if they can kill you quicker than you can revive yourself. Other than that, it's just a pointless waste of resources that you can easily buy back. Very rarely have I played a JRPG where I was hesitant to use healing items and thought I would be better off taking chances.

When a battle puts your nose to the grindstone like that, it leaves little room for strategy. It is often very easy to tell when it is impossible to win a boss battle by using legit strategy, and that luck is your only option. In fact, I bet most of you have conquered many difficult bosses because that one particular run, you got much more lucky than your previous ones.

>ctrl + f
>emo
Oh Spoony, you truly left a mark on our internet.
You took a meaningless word and turned it into a magnet of undeserved credibility, i applaud you.

>>565034
>In fact, I bet most of you have conquered many difficult bosses because that one particular run, you got much more lucky than your previous ones.
Oh god... you're absolutely right. Usually you use the exact same skills every turn, with a party healer, and revive whenever necessary. It seems like you win by either powerleveling or by pure luck, very rarely skill.

>>558774
Earthbound isn't shit, it's slow. Some people, myself included, don't like that.

Final Fantasy are classic games that haven't aged as well as other classics because the JRPG genre has only evolved, for better or for worse.

Dragon Warrior is tedious but again, all the kinks were yet to be worked out of the JRPG genre.

JRPG is as flawed as any other genre when it comes to retro vidya, in that they were starting points.

>>565034
Yeah, that's definitely an issue.

>>565052
>Earthbound isn't shit
The random combat is infuriating, the battle interface is outrageously boring, and if it wasn't "quirky", the game would be unplayable.

>>559538
I had a bad interaction with two Mexican/German/British/anywhere people here they must all be terrible!

>>565063
Rolling counters. That is one of the better features of the interface, if you are dying and are quick enough, an immediate heal can save your ass.

>>565063
>The random combat is infuriating, the battle interface is outrageously boring
What is any JRPG, Alex?

Look. Some people like things that you don't. I probably dislike some games that you like. That's okay.

>>565063

>unplayable.

you guys are really exaggerated.

It's ok if you really can't stand "random combaT" (even though Earthbound doesn't really have random encounters, but whatever), and the battle is just standard dragon quest/wizardry-style turn based combat, there's nothing "unplayable" about it, just maybe you prefer something with more action. Big deal, don't play turn based RPGs, then.

OP here, I guess it's just fit to say that it isn't about the gameplay, it's more about the story and your actions driving. People love Chrono Trigger, but I think that's doesn't have much to do with the actual combat.

When I think of FFIX I don't remember specific battles, but just the experience of the game itself. I guess that's why people play JRPGs because I the experience.

Also whoever said Elder Scrolls is bad you can go suck on a fat dick, have you played Morrowind? Nothing beats it.

SNES JRPG/action RPG rankings:
Chrono Trigger
Terranigma
FFVI
ALTTP
Earthbound
Illusion of Gaia
Tales of Phantasia
FFV
Soul Blazer
What else do I play? I have tried Seinken densetsu 2, 3 and Evermore but I have never completed them for whatever reason. I also think I never finished Super Mario RPG, I don't even know why.

>>565637
Morrowind plays like shit. Fuck missing with a weapon when the enemy covers your entire view.

>>565680

Missing has to do with your stats, that's the RPG element of the game. Like missing doesn't happen in turn-based RPGs either...

>>565637
A ton of shit beats Morrowind. Might & Magic games for one.

>>565657
Try Romancing SaGa 3 and Treasure Hunter G.

>>565680
>waaah why are there stats in my RPG

>>565794
I dont mind stats, I just wish they equated to a reduction in damage, like an actual weapon penalties, instead of outright missing something 15 times. how am I supposed to get my skill in that weapon up any, if I only hit 3 times in 50?

>>565843
Doesn't your skill raise by missing too?

I just don't like the common conventions of them. Things like grinding, focus more on stats than strategy or skill, and the method of storytelling. I try not to be genre minded when I go into games, but JRPGS are the one genre that I assume I won't enjoy the games categorized by it.

Keep in mind not liking the conventions doesn't mean I haven't played JRPGs that I've liked. Earthbound, for example. Though I definitely didn't enjoy it as much as some people. I think what a lot of people like about Earthbound is how refreshingly un-JRPGish it is while still including the things people like about the genre.

And I certainly understand why they'd be so popular and prevalent in the retro era. They work amazingly well and were as complex as you can get up to a certain time. The problem is that gaming has evolved past the need for JRPGs. It's like when people say that point and click didn't die, it was just absorbed into other genres.

>>565843
Skill trainers. That's the point. You can either invest money into building stats quickly, or you can build up skill naturally over time.

Missing at low skill levels works better because there's a much more immediately noticeable benefit to gaining skill.

Besides, if you're even the slightest bit competent at character builds, you should always have one weapon type that hardly ever misses in the first place.

>>565872
Havent played it since I got a 360, to be honest, so I dont really know or remember.

>>565794

It's different in something like Morrowind. When you're given full control of the character, it makes a lot less sense when the character is less skilled than you.

>>565905
Your problem is you're trying to look at Morrowind as an action RPG. It's not, and it never tried to be.

Look at Skyrim. The game's combat might be more immediately enjoyable, but it loses a lot of depth because any character can do anything. From the start of the game, as long as you learn a spell, you can cast it successfully, and you can use any weapon you want regardless of whether or not you've used that type of weapon before.

It doesn't make sense from a roleplaying standpoint because your character has no limitations, which is part of the entire point of roleplaying. You're not playing as you, the video game player who excels in all areas of mouse-clicking, but as an inexperienced person with an initially small number of skills.

The real tragedy here is that Morrowind doesn't display animations that show an enemy dodging an attack every time you miss, not the missing itself. It's perfectly fine for the game that Morrowind is, which is a stat-based WRPG.

>>566014
>Your problem is you're trying to look at Morrowind as an action RPG. It's not, and it never tried to be.
Not true, Morrowind follows the lineage of Ultima Underworld, which was one of the most influential action RPGs of its era.