/vr/ - Retro Games

Do you guys ever do challenge runs in saga games? For example trying to beat a game in the fewest battles, or with the lowest skill levels. I'm not sure what to do for my next RS2 playthrough.

>>5568273
>Virgil
FUCK YOU VIRGIL
FUCK YOU AND YOUR COMBOS
I'LL BEAT YOUR GAY NIGGER ASS ONE DAY
JUST GOTTA RESTART THE ENTIRETY OF RIKI'S SCENARIO SINCE I FUCKED IT ALL UP

>>5568401
Do you even Tanoshii?

Orlogue is the Lord of Whores, he...got nothing but prostitutes on his side

What the fuck do I do for the lava rock in the comroon volcano???? I do no damage to it even using the hammer the lizards gave me

>>5568258
So, do I need to grind first? Should I restart?

>>5568395
Naw, just try out different teams. Monsters were pretty darn good in SaGa 1 and 2.

>>5568410
Nusy is the fucking best

>>5568669
I wonder who's behind this post.
>>5569087
The lava rock has insane defense ratings because well, it's a slab of volcanic rock.
You need some REALLY strong attacker to make a dent, blunt attacks are pretty much mandatory so a hammer user or a martial artist are your best choice, make sure you have someone with AoE attacks like an archer or magic user so you can wipe out the other enemies reniforcements.
>>5569132
I don't think you need to, it's a bog standard main quest boss you're talking about so it's no real challenge, you're just inexperienced so it seems like a big deal but you can get around it just fine with minimal effort.
First off, get a full team and go treasure hunting around the world for better items, secondly, invest in magic, a spell like Mirrorshade can be very useful since it creates decoys that will take the hits for you, not to mention you need some sustainable healing tool to not just die and magic covers that, potions don't really cut it outside of the very early game so do not rely on them.
Secondly, you can just choose not to fight said boss at all, that quest has two outcomes and you can just choose not to chase Joker at all and go back to the parking lot, it will also alter the story if you do, whether you think it will lead you to a better or worse story is up to you so unless you want me to, I won't spoiler that.
Lastly, you should know that in SaGa games, your equipment and abilities make a bigger difference than raw stats, which is why I told you to go around and explore, finding better equipment will make a huge difference, something apparently minimal like a set of jet boots or a bigger gun will make much more of a difference than half an hour of grinding battles, that doesn't mean you should ignore fighting of course, since that's where you learn new stuff and get your stats up, but don't just think fighting and grinding will be the answer to all your problems because it won't.

>>5569532
>Lastly, you should know that in SaGa games, your equipment and abilities make a bigger difference than raw stats

Now that you brought this up, I was considering to keep my characters undergeared thinking that by having them attack more times there's more chance to learn a skill. Is this true by any way?

>>5569546
As for battles I somewhat tried to avoid them because I heard SaGa games punish grinding.

>surviving the endboss of RS2 pretty well
>Tidal Wave 3 times in a row

:)

>>5569546
>by having them attack more times there's more chance to learn a skill
Good guessing, but in practice, you can achieve that much faster just by fighting very strong enemies.
The BR rating bonus when fighting strong enemies will let you learn much more abilities in a few turn that fighting normal stuff for hours while undergeared, it's not unusual to learn a few techs during each turn too with this approach.
>As for battles I somewhat tried to avoid them
The more battles you fight the more your BR rating grows, that's true, this in turn changes the batches of enemies you'll fight, which results in tougher battles but at the same time much better growth.
SaGa games do "punish" grinding but not in the way you probably understood that.

One reason is because again, the higher your battle rank the stronger enemies you'll fight, and in many of the games, bosses will also get stronger.
This doesn't mean you have to keep fighting to a minimum (You can, but you need to be very experienced with the games to get away with it), rather, you have to maximize the yields for each fight, which means again, fighting only very strong enemies and winning so you can reap all those BR bonuses for stat growth and tech learning.
The higher the enemy BR the faster your stats will grow and you'll also get big sparking bonuses, this means a high BR battle equates multiple normal or low BR battles in terms of result, what would normally take 15 minutes of fighting standard enemies will take 4 or 5 in a single high BR battle.

The second reason is that BR and character growth are strongly linked, BR is (usually) calculated by the amount of fights you trigger, that means that the game doesn't effectively scale enemies according to your "levels" like you would imagine, it is a scaling that is virtually independent of your growth, it's not a level scaling mechanic in short.
>>>

>>5569589
Going back to the previous example, fighting 10 battles that yield you maybe two techs and 6 or so stats up around the board isn't just bad because you're wasting your time compared to fighting one strong battle and getting the same or better results, those 10 battles you've triggered are added to your BR tally, that makes the BR grow much faster than just one fight, meaning everyone around you gets stronger faster than you do.
The best course of action is to always try to outrun or outsmart the BR by fighting a low amount of battles that nevertheless give you high yields in terms of character growth or skill acquisition, this is a substantially different approach from most other RPGs and leads to a lot of meta tricks depending on the entry, RS2 for instance has the Stone Guardian hit and run exploit, RS3 has Dream World loops and so on.

Another key to outrun the BR is, of course, getting better items, which is where exploring and treasure hunting shines, not to mention the world economy, SaGa games don't give you money for killing things, you have to know how to deal with the economy in there, selling high and buying low, knowing what to sell or what to buy etc, good equipment will be a major advantage, non linearity allows and greatly rewards your efforts in sequence breaking and exploration, that boss that seemed unbeatable will be much easier after outfitting your party with some stuff you found in a dungeon.

In short, by keeping your BR low but your stats high and having good gear you're outsmarting the system, the BR mechanic was originally added to add some variety and also solve the problem of having a consistent difficulty level in a series that adopted a wildly non linear approach, but Kawazu and the others knew that standard level scaling wasn't up to job and would just lead to a predictable progression, so they created this independent system, which in some entries also worked with monster ecology submechanics to add even more variety.

>>5569596
But how do I know when I'm fighting an strong enemy? or I just fight the ocassional battle until I know for sure the location of an strong enemy (like the guys in the middle of the desert towers in RS2)?

>Just found that I had something called a water ring after dying like four times to tidal wave spam

Life can be sweet sometimes

>>5569609
>But how do I know when I'm fighting an strong enemy?
A lot of it comes from empiric knowledge, like all things in games.
However, there's also easy ways to find high BR enemies, hunting for fixed midboss/boss battles is one way to do it, Shingrow or Furdo's workshop are good examples of that, so are the various bosses for the magic quests in Devin, your main quest campaigns are of course another good example since they contain a lot of fixed encounters.

Another way to know when you're in a good place to fight is simply gauging the zone you're in.
In the vast majority of SaGa games, you'll have definite BR floor and ceiling, in some cases, that floor bonus is a permanent cumulative bonus too, that means you can travel to zones with high BR floor and exploit them (of course you'll also need to make sure you can do that in the first place and not die), this isn't any different from most RPGs where content is scaled geographically, the difference being that SaGa doesn't bottleneck that content so you're free to challenge it anytime if you feel up to it.
Try to have a look at the enemies you're fighting in the sewers of Koorong and the stuff you'll fight in the Biolab.

>>5569569
>>5569619
Ain't that fun?
At least you're not getting grandslammed on top of Maelstrom+Psychobind+Kamaitachi, the second phase is tough.
Besides, you can use Firewall to bypass Maelstom too, Firewall wards against both heat and cold based stuff.

>>5569626
I don't currently have firewall, my fire level is a little lacking because I focused on wind/water or earth/water for my support mages.

>>5569634
You're missing out, Crimson Flare is an absolute shitwrecker, especially with Bless, it also leads to very fun fusion spells and you can cosplay as Noel too with Red Dragon Wave once you unlock Heat Hand, Reviver is also a very powerful passive tool to have around.
I hope you did get Elixir though since you focused on water and earth,

>>5569648
I managed to ask for it, but I was too late for fusions, somehow. Could only ask for them at the absolute tailend of final emperor.

>>5569652
Oh well, no matter.
It's not like you can't bash the heroes' face with your swords anyway, you should try it out on a replay though, the secret boss in the maze is also very resistent to physical attacks so spellcasters with Crimson Flare are a very good choice.

>>5569658
Something weird happened. The boss stalled on going onto the second phase but I managed to get quite a bit of damage out of them while there (they were still using shit like Vortex or Psycho Shot, but they couldn't do Tidal Wave or Astral Gate) and the sixth turn after him going into the second phase I FUCKING BEAT IT, I thought I was going fucking crazy when the mask cracked (they couldn't do a third phase after all that shit could they?). I fucking love that the credits are just the emperor one-shotting shit with abilities I've never seen like the Zorro one or the roses one I'm sure is a reference to something but I can't take it out of my tongue. What a game! Tearjerker of an ending too.

Can I still get the privateer in rs2 if I went from land to nuono and killed the pirate?

>>5569697
Nice going anon, I'm happy you liked it, and yeah, the ending is really big feels time, especially when Leon, Gerard and Viktor's spirits appear at the end.
I hope this will make you play the game some more and also play the rest of the series, they're all pretty different games, but they all have this great feeling of adventure, nice stories and great mechanics.
>>5569707
Yes.

>>5569626
are the 7H less likely to use area attacks when there are only 2 party members available to attack? When I hid the remaining 3 in Mist the boss almost never used area attacks and I won on my second try.

>>5570080
I had three attackers (emperor+imperial lancer+salamander) and two mages hid in mist (academic+nereid) and the 7H still spammed Tidal Wave like it was no one's business, with a side of area stone throwing (the main problem surfaced in that the second tidal wave in a row systematically killed the academic, who had low HP and low tolerance to this kinda attack, making the nereid the only healer and completely disrupting the attacker-support balance). I think you just got lucky in that scenario.

>>5569569
The trick is to alter the field conditions. They can only use tidal wave when they set the field to darkness, i.e. after abyss gate. If you spam light magic you will clear the darkness and revert back to the plain field that was present at the start of the fight. This not only prevents them from using their most powerful attacks, it also nullifies their regeneration.

>>5570080
Not that I know.
Hiding technically removes the targeted actor though, in theory it might be possible that it changes the AI behaviour a bit, though that wouldn't explain getting fucked by AoE if you play solo either.
The second phase is dangerous because the 7H have no clear behaviour in their turn patterns, on one turn you might get just a bunch of normal attacks and great sword tech from Noel and in the next turn they go absolutely apeshit and spam most of their signature attacks, this is why you must kill them as fast as possible once you enter the second phase, it's not a fight where you can kite or play defensively.
Most of the final bosses in the series are like that by the way, they usually have a relatively easy first phase that lulls you into a false sense of security which is generally meant for you to gear up and prepare for the second phase where they can kill you or turn the tables around very easily, only some of Frontier's final bosses are an exception to that.

>>5570139
>i.e. after abyss gate. If you spam light magic
What the fuck, are you serious? So if I just spam sunlight or whatever the last tier holy magic is you just come back to the previous scenario? That's incredible.

>>5570142
>, it's not a fight where you can kite or play defensively.
heh, like the other guy said I might have been lucky, but that's the exact way I won: by simply using a 5000 damage damage slash each turn emperor wasn't disabled and having the rest on heals. Though I almost ran out of JP.

>>5570160
Well, field manipulation has been showcased so many times by then, it's not like the seven are magically immune to core mechanics, they might have an ungodly number of actions per turn but they don't play dirty.
>>5570170
Good for you, of course the mileage varies depending on how well geared you are and how high your HP/proficiencies are, generally speaking though, kiting isn't a good option.

>>5570182
>>5570139
I'm starting to think the main reason people struggle with RS2 so much is that they go through the entire game oblivious to the field mechanic. Meanwhile I came from other SaGa games and was no stranger to them.

>>5570182
>>5570189
I haven't got a single clue what you're talking about here. When is this field manipulation showcased in RS2? None of the bosses I went through have shown even glances of it, only 7H; and I just finished the game!

>>5570196
It's not, the meatball is the only fight that makes it visually apparent and it's never truly explained anywhere. It can be helpful when fighting dragons and stuff if you know that's why they're regenerating but you can also just spam your strongest attacks to win in any situation.

>>5570224
>It can be helpful when fighting dragons and stuff if you know that's why they're regenerating
That's why dragons regenerate? So, if I did, say, majority holy magics against the black dragon the regen would reverse? This shit is truly amazing.

does anyone know where to download some of the artbooks

>>5570196
>None of the bosses I went through have shown even glances of it
You sure about that?
Why do you think bosses or even normal monsters regenerate HP at the end of their turns?
Why do you think your Nereid party members regenerate when you're fighting in water or after you use a lot of water magic? Field manipulation is what does that, use an element long enough and eventually the field will become attuned to it.
This is a core mechanic in the game and many other entries in the series, Chrono Cross took its coloured field mechanic straight from these games too.
It's a bit hard to believe you haven't noticed up until the Seven, it's really apparent in a lot of fights, I can only think you've made the common mistake of not exploring magic as a toolset.
>>5570241
There's one on Sadpanda.

>>5570251
>There's one on Sadpanda.

Do you want me to kick your ass?

>>5570261
Dude, do I look like some kind of charity to you?
The best I can do for you is this:
http://pastebin.com/E1V2hcfM
If you find more feel free to add, that's the best I can do for you.

>>5570251
>I can only think you've made the common mistake of not exploring magic as a toolset.
Well, you're right about that. I mostly used magic as a method of support of weaponry (gilden strength, cures, water dance, you know the drill), didn't ever use it as a base. It didn't cross my thoughts there was an ecosystem in every battle related to the use of magic. As for regen, I thought it was "a thing dragons did", because it was only immediately apparent and bothersome with dragons and the second phase of 7H. I should have been more perceptive. I will have it in mind with other games in the series.

Is there a book with all the Romancing SaGa 1 mythology?

>>5570275
>It didn't cross my thoughts there was an ecosystem in every battle related to the use of magic
Admittedly the game doesn't really tell you that expliclty, and to be fair, it's your first game too so it's understandable, you're still getting adjusted to it all.

One thing I told you in the previous thread was that you have to always keep an eye open, because the games have many things that work behind the scenes, and while they are very intuitive it's also true that the game tells you nothing about those.
In regards to the field system, all zones are naturally attuned to elements, it's fairly easy to understand which zones use which, the volcano in Komulune for instance makes you start with a fire attuned field, fighting in the sealed cave's underground section has dark attuned fields (which is why there's so many undeads in there), fighting underwater or near water bodies means your field starts off with water attunement and so on.
Enemies also visually show what they can do, that's why Viker types end up dropping shields for instance and why they can have shield parries, conversely, turtles and such can use their shell as a functional shield, Tree plantoids can't use the same tentacle attacks as something like a Bloody Mary because they visually don't have tentacles and so on.
The games have a lot of clues to them and to what's happening or what's going to happen, you just need to pay attention, the games after RS2 are more explicit about it, RS3 for instance adds a visual effect to field attunment (though SF2 or Unlimited don't).
>>5570290
The Minstrel Song Ultimania bible, a bit costly and JP only though.

>>5570297
>Enemies also visually show what they can do, that's why Viker types end up dropping shields for instance and why they can have shield parries, conversely, turtles and such can use their shell as a functional shield, Tree plantoids can't use the same tentacle attacks as something like a Bloody Mary because they visually don't have tentacles and so on.
This I understood fairly quickly, the game presents visual information on enemies quite well (for example, many of the enemies that have feet can trip), shelled enemies have a *clang* sound when hit with a sword. Game's very well designed in that regard.

>>5570327
Yeah, all enemies convey what they can do with their visual design, even something you've never seen before can give you clues about what you're going to fight.
Big tail? You can bet they're gonna use that to tail slam you regardless of what they are.
Tentacles? Be it a plant or a octopus they're going to have the same tentacle attack, on the matter of octopi, they can use ink while other aquans can't.
Enemy drops work in the same way, plants for instance often drop healing herbs, humanoids drop the equipment they wear, the sword on that giant in the frozen ruins? You can get it. That lizardman with a spear? It will use piercing attacks and the same spear techs you use.

All enemies fall into family types with common weaknesses too, and even there, it's all in the visuals, you wouldn't use spears on the stone guardian in Eilunep, it's easier to bash stone with hammers than it is to pierce it, plants are very susceptible to fire or slashing attacks, the woodcutter tech for your axe also deals specific critical damage to plantoids, unsurprisingly, slimes are highly resistant to blunt and cold based attacks and so on.

There's a lot of care put in conveying information in an indirect way, this is true on all levels, from gameplay to narrative, have you noticed how the village of the ancients has the same theme of all the mysterious ruins you found before that? It's not because they were cheap with that, it's part of the story, later games in the series have even more details for you to pick up and decode, it's pretty great.

Most people will tell you that there's no story or interesting characters in the SaGa games, but it's not true at all, the story is in there, it's just that it's not conveyed in the usual ways, outside of SF2 I guess, where it's the main attraction.

>>5570357
I would say that most JRPGs use this design scheme (which is why I picked it up), but RS2 really goes a lot further, which is impressive.

About the narrative, I thought that the way the game presents itself is pretty outstanding and really out there as far as game design goes, how talking to people unlocks routes (or how they won't give you information as a foreigner, or change treatment given circumstances) and how you can get rather far into the game without following any specific quest, picking up stuff which is eventually drawn into the scheme of the central plot, with a great deal of surprises that wouldn't happen in a more linearly written plot (Dantarg minding his business, Noel offering peace, the sandboat...).

I think that the theme of the struggle with the seven heroes as a motive of the expansion of the empire and the warmongering in general (which is the reason the emperor ultimately abdicates) to be a bit too scantily written, though: people talk about it (the academic, the forbidden city dwellers, the memory dragons), but the only nation that genuinely opposed my interactions on their own was pseudo-Japan, and every other region felt like talking to vassals and not genuinely different and probably opposed cultures. The plot of the armed merchants having an antiimperialist split being ultimately Subier's doing was a bit dissapointing. There's something to be said about the conception the game has of extended periods of time and nothing really changing, but I think that is more of a matter of an intended theme than a genuine flaw. However, I can say most of the things I find wrong about this game stem from its incredibly ambitious design, genuinely pushing videogames as an artistic format. I have barely played games as great as this, and I can't wait to play more from this team or related.

>>5570447
>I would say that most JRPGs use this design scheme
I wouldn't say so, most JRPGs don't have tight and well defined monster type submechanics, especially games of the time, nor do they have in depth damage mechanics or complex magic libraries, in RS2 you have anything ranging from a simple fireball to spells that effectively create a new piece of equipment in your inventory, moreover those spells not only increase in potency with your associated proficiencies, they also get new effects, like Fireball getting an AoE explosion at high fire proficiency, then there's spell fusion which is another level to it all.
You take your average FF or DQ, they don't really have specific monster type mechanics nor definite mechanical designs, Gilgamesh is depicted with so many weapons and yet uses almost none mechanically, and is one of the few enemies that are actually on the better side of that kind of design since you can steal genji stuff from it, and talking about stealing, it's pretty nonsensical most of the times since you can do stuff like stealing boots from behemots for some reason, you won't see that in SaGa games.
SMT games try to do that but even inside their specific demon types the ruleset is pretty lax and mostly just nomenclature, there's nothing really specific mechanically about the Megami race outside of their theme for instance, Cerberus and Nekomata are both classified as Majuu in SMT2 for instance, were it RS3 Cerberus would be a magic beast type and Nekomata a Werebeast, and you'd immediately know not just that but their weakness, even when it comes to negotiation those demon classes didn't really amount to much in most cases, outside of a couple of classes like undeads or angels.
As far as other games of the time go, there's really not much that can compete in terms of care put into functional and intuitive enemy design, the Metal Max games are good contenders but it's hard to find much else, outside of some SRPGs I guess.
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>>5570579
>but the only nation that genuinely opposed my interactions on their own was pseudo-Japan
I see what you're getting at, but that ultimately came down to the leaders, Hato was hostile to you and not open to any kind of negotiation, so you get a very clear opposition in that questline, this doesn't happen in Cumberland because you start with two nations having a friendly relationship with each other Seifried aside, not to mention you help them in the civil war so why would they oppose you unless you take the bad route where Georg and Toma die? Enrique also isn't too fond of you but YOU can choose to compromise a bit, Noel is open to make peace with you unless you've already killed Rocbouquet, generally speaking, most regions don't just ally with you until you've showed you can be trusted, which is fine, you can be an asshole too sometimes, like destroying Komulune.
Avalon is the only region that opposes the heroes story wise, and it becomes a legend in its own right, you're explicitly a force of good and a nice spin on the evil empire theme, especially coming from FF2.
>I think that is more of a matter of an intended theme than a genuine flaw.
Some of it is definitely intentional, like the two kids in Avalon having a special gift for your final emperor as a throwback to the two kids that Gerald looked after in his own times, or the various generations of lords in Cumberland being Toma's descendants.
On the other hand, I think it was just too much to ask for at the time, especially for the hardware, it would have been a massive effort for an already very ambitious game, and Square always put anything that isn't FF in second place, so it's fairly unrealistic to pretend they could ever deliver on that side, though it sure would have made the game even better.
Besides, you can also do a Last Emperor VS the World run and effectively finish the game in 50 years, it's not THAT unrealistic given how elastic the game is.
>>>

>>5570585
Why don't you try Frontier next? It's admittedly not as tight as RS2 for some things but it will be a nice change now, especially in terms of settings and narrative, I'm sure you'll appreciate a lot since you like RS2 this much.

Instead of a generation driven game you'll get used to the more common multiple MC scenario of the series, the game is also set in a very quirky sci-fi setting, with different characters and their weird stories that intertwine with each others creating a very interesting and complex web of stories in a charming little universe of different worlds and different races.
Otherwise, if you want more of the same you can try Frontier 2, which takes up the generational design of RS2 but twists it in a historical drama about two different people living antithetical lives in a european styled fantasy world, instead of being the epic tale of an empire it's the intimate chronicle of different lineages, it's quite well done in that regards, despite being the most linear game in the modern series.
Admittedly, there's not really a lot of player input to it all compared to other games and RS2 in particular, but the atmosphere and storytelling is arguably one of the strongest in the series.

>>5570585
> I think it was just too much to ask for at the time, especially for the hardware, it would have been a massive effort for an already very ambitious game, and Square always put anything that isn't FF in second place, so it's fairly unrealistic to pretend they could ever deliver on that side, though it sure would have made the game even better.
Most of the things you say I agree with , but this game is already pushing a lot of boundaries I thought were unreachable with the SNES. I think Chrono Trigger very effectively did passage of time and effective change in chronology, so I don't see why RS2 couldn't in relation to hardware. I think it comes more to the thing that these are mostly medieval cultures, if not nomadic, which are very very adamant to change, and the game tries to reflect on that a bit. However, you're right that it would take a massive toll on dev time to do otherwise.

As for other JRPGs, I mainly meant that certain enemy subclasses can be interacted with in a similar visual manner as with RS2 (blobs can't be hit with swords in most FF for example). Of course, most JRPGs don't have the level of detail RS2 presents, but it's probably a reason I picked that more intuitively and not the field system (this is what I meant in the og post). In regards to SMT, I feel that Soul Hackers and Strange Journey do interesting things with demon types, specially the former: they have determinate personalities in relation to how they act in interviews and will act accordingly when given orders, even refusing to do things in combat. You might be interested in that, although it's a fairly easy game otherwise and doesn't push this at all. As for Strange Journey, the whole allegiance system becomes a combo system and determines the flux on combat on both sides (if I remember right), so you need to prioritize not only level but compatible allegiance in different ways. It's not crazy, but it works and serves as a nice way to emphasize decisions through gameplay.

>>5570585
In relation to the role of the empire as a force of good, I can see that, but the game also sometimes points towards a certain forcefulness in the empire as an expansive force and the violence within that, and how the role of the emperor doesn't really hold up without the threat of the seven heroes and I really couldn't see that in the relation to other nations, everyone was way too chill with your presence. Sure, you annex other regions by proof of virtue, solving their problems, but that's how you make an international alliance and trade agreements, not becoming a part of your expansive empire! However, this is not the romans we're talking about, the role of the empire in this game in extraneous regions is pretty lax and unintrusive beyond taxation it seems lol, hell, at the end the emperor just abdicates and they become a commonwealth, that's just unprecedented historically.

By the way, what's up with the robot the genius inventor makes at the last generation? Can you recruit it?

>>5570598
I'll certainly be playing more of these games, but with a certain time. I don't like to play games of the same style in such a succesive manner. Your recommendation is noted though, thanks, both look like really fine games.

>>5570682
>I think Chrono Trigger very effectively did passage of time
Chrono Trigger was a cinematic, story driven game with not even a third of the mechanical complexity and sheer freedom of progression of RS2, it's hard to compare them, let alone the fact that it had a massive budget compared to RS2, it also came two years later.
Sure, it does look great, it does have multiple versions (or maps) of the supposedly same world, but the general extent of the game just isn't comparable, and you're asking a team that spent two years creating a game of RS2's caliber to spend even more time altering each one of those cities and dungeons visually to show the passage of time, let alone altering NPCs and possibly the entire map to have new cities here and there, for a game that doesn't even have a set timespan since again, you can complete it either 30-50 in game years to over a millennium, this is something that takes massive planning.

It's not like it would have been impossible, but it would have been a massive endeavour that would have required time and money they simply couldn't get, in fact it all goes downhill for the team after RS3 when it comes to that, unfortunately.
>I feel that Soul Hackers and Strange Journey do interesting things with demon types
SH I can agree with, SJ? Not sure, I don't think they made a good job in characterizing the demons according to their races, outside of again, the usual races like undeads, demon co-op in SJ was also alignment based and not type based so I don't see your point.
>what's up with the robot
Coppelia? Of fucking course, though she works a bit differently from other characters in the sense that she's fully AI controlled given how she's a robot, you can have her as your legit last emperor too

>>5570726
I had to cut down the post a bit, I was going to say demon types and allegiances haha. Soul Hackers also doesn't work with demon types either, but a set of personalities that group different demons of different types afaik. I was just mentioning them because they have some cool ideas mechanically, but nowhere what RS2 is.

About Chrono Trigger, what I meant is that it really isn't impossible in terms of hardware, it's a matter of time the devs can work with, which ends up being a budgetary issue, thing that you address in your post. And it works thematically, so I'm really fine with it. What's the story with the SaGa team and dwindling resources, though, do you have texts about that?

>>5570726
Also, the thing about the robot is legit cool. What is she good with, magic?

>>5570761
Nope she's a great physical attacker, stats are 20/20/20/20 in str dex vit agi. Her magic is weak and she won't use magic when AI controlled.

>>5570758
>About Chrono Trigger, what I meant is that it really isn't impossible in terms of hardware, it's a matter of time the devs can work with
I'd say it's kinda both, when you have to fit not only assets but a very complex game system and expansive amount of content in one SNES cartridge...it's a bit hard to balance it all out, and SaGa games almost always favour mechanics in terms of presentation, for better or worse.
>What's the story with the SaGa team and dwindling resources
Same problem for anything that wasn't the first division or wasn't called Final Fantasy, they got put into second place or third place and not given enough money or time to properly develop a game, let alone marketing budget. The first Frontier had a very troubled development cycle for instance, Frontier 2 was a pretty short game since the team was working on both that and Legend of Mana, and with the sixth gen it all came tumbling down due to Square focusing even more on FF at the expenses of everything else, outside of maybe KH.
The games were still as good as ever despite that, but they had to cut down visual values further and further, then they got relegated to the low budget dungeon for over a decade until now, with TLR being the only exception and mostly because they decided to soft rebrand what would have been called SaGa Frontier 3 in order to get decent funding.
Just to give you a vague idea, it took them 15 years after Unlimited to make a new official mainline entry, anything inbetween that were remakes of older games, TLR and a two mobile games.

>>5570805
Sadly, the new one (Scarlett Grace, was it?) looks a bit flaccid visually (although the remasters/remakes look pretty fine). A shame, since the character designer is aces and his work with the games seems to be great. I hope it gets to come, though, I'll be sure to buy whatever the team releases. I've heard the games sell decently in Japan, is it true?

I want to learn the temptation evasion skill in my next RS2 playthrough. Is there an easy way to do this?

>>5570821
Eh, the remaster is just the same game at a higher resolution and with a new, worse UI, visually speaking, they didn't really fix it in that sense.
>I've heard the games sell decently in Japan, is it true?
RS2's remaster sold reportedly very well, and Scarlet Grace's success was what lead to the creation of the SaGa Project, Re: UniverSe is also making record profits since its launch so we can say that the team got back on its feet in terms of achievements the company can acknowledge.
Problem is that the team also lost many veterans on the way, with a sizeable portion being the minds behind LoL/Alliance Alive, a good part of the team is now young employees with not a lot of practice, and Scarlet showed that a lot.
But looking at the bright side, they can only get better from here, as long as Kawazu's at the helm too, when he retires it will probably be over unless Takai takes over or they find somebody else, it won't be the same series though, if they even keep producing it.

>>5570826
>Is there an easy way to do this?
Savescumming.

anybody know why reuniverse reports being incompatible with my devices, despite having now multiple android phones which should be compatible (old one was listed incompatible, new one is too despite running android 8.1)

Also, I'm playing FF Legend, going to beat it for the first time. Any suggestions on what a fun party would be to use? Only thing I've used before was four espers which was broken as all fuck, instant death spells all of the day

>>5570848
From videos I've seen of the original, the backgrounds have gone through a lot of work while maintaining the feel. The UI a lot though, I hope they have consoles in mind for the next one or at least give the option to change types (games used to have that!)
About the gacha thing, that's very good. Thanks for the info!

>>5570856
>anybody know why reuniverse reports being incompatible with my devices

Can't help you with that, you're on your own.
>Any suggestions on what a fun party would be to use?
SaGa 1 is pretty rough, there's not a lot of fun you can have with it nowadays, especially coming from the other games, even SaGa 2 was much better.
You can try an all monster party if you feel like it, or solo it with a human and go full Doomguy.

>>5570861
The UI sucks *

>>5568395
A sólo Blue run you say?

>>5570290
I have the Minstrel Song Ultimania, so if you have any specific questions I can try to answer them.

blump

I'm going to play RS3 for the first time, are there any really important hidden mechanics that I should know about?

>>5572018
There's a greed mechanic that changes how people react to you based on what quests you do and how you finish them. Mostly not a big deal unless you're Harid.

monsters get stronger as usual but in RS3 you have to kill tons of that race for it's biggest baddies to show up so you pretty much don't have to worry about it in this one, just go get your money and treasures and fight whatever gets in your way, you'll be fine mostly

>>5572031
Thanks, so there's nothing like global levels in 3?

>>5572018
Only thing that comes to mind is the Greed Counter, but that's only true for Harid, and I guess Thomas.
Basically, all MCs have a hidden reputation counter that rises each time you take a quest route that leads you to ask money out of people, once your Greed Counter reaches a certain value some people won't give you quests altogether because you don't look like a good guy to them, this makes it so you can miss very good quest chains like the one with Ward that ultimately leads to the Ice Galaxy, recruiting Snowman and the Ice Sword, but again, it's only really a problem for Harid, who starts with the highest Greed Counter in the game, and maybe Thomas iirc.

This game also has a pseudo ER in the sense that most questlines start being available or end after certain points, in MS that was calculated by using the number of fights you won, in this game it's oddly calculated by gauging your MC's maximum HP pool, which is a bit weird and can lead to missing a bunch of early game quests if you fight too much with certain MCs, shouldn't be a problem as long as you keep explore as usual though, there's also no such thing as jewel rewards either.

Other than that, Anon>>5572031 already told you about the way BR works in RS3, I don't think there's any other big mechanic you can't find out by yourself, outside of maybe Commander Mode, which is an optional, pretty useful fighting mode which served as a base for The Last Remnant's union model.
Basically, once you have six party members you need to put your MC in the sixth position and he'll act as a strategist for the other 5, giving orders much like you would in TLR, and similarly to TLR, all characters in the game act of their own volition according to their own talents, equipment, position etc.
Unlike TLR though, in this game you have one more thing, formation techs/magic, each formation has techs/magic that you can trigger depending on both the position of certain characters and their weapon/magic schools.

>>5572038
Global levels are unique to RS2.

Are the ninja from the MoM any good or just a female brawler?

>>5572648
They're similar to Karl&co. in the sense that they're the only other class in the game that specializes in martial arts and has high STR ratings.
Unlike Karl&co. however, the shinobi class trades HP and constitution ratings for speed, they're more or less a hybrid between city thieves and the brawlers, they also come with high sword proficiency, which makes them an interesting glass cannon class, their high speed makes them very versatile too.

>>5573029
Thanks, I was thinking of doing an all female playthrough and didn't know if it was worth the trouble going for them early.

>>5572648
Stat-wise they're samurai except better since they're female and get a free accessory. Weapon-wise they get fists and either swords or axes.
Fist attacks benefit from both str and spd (but mostly str) and more importantly various formations provide defense after attacking. Between my two favorite formations, fist ninjas work better in Amazon Strike than in Mu Palisade.

uh which one of these has the giant lobster man

>>5573179
Romancing SaGa 3

>>5573191
k I'll play that one that's the only reason I came here

>>5568273

Please explain. Just wtf are the regions? Islands in some kinda ether ala he "worlds" as presented in 1980's Flash Gordon?

>>5573490
Yeah, that's pretty much the gist of it.
But there are also regions that aren't in that sea and exist in their own pocket space, like Margmel, or Kirin and Timelord's regions.
>inb4 what is Tanzer
Don't think too hard about it, Tanzer is just some massive organism swimming in that interdimensional sea, kind of like the Zolgear from Galaxian so to speak.

>Those tags
Silly old man, you're dropping hints on the next project as usual are you?
https://twitter.com/SaGa25kawazu/status/1128199974573862912

>>5574167
Can't read japanese, care to explain?

>>5574175
Tags are: #SaGaFrontier#Shrike#KingSei
Kawazu retwitted an article about the famous Osaka's Mozu tomb complex, which after nearly a decade have been finally acknowledge as world heritage by UNESCO.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozu_tombs
In the tweet he says:
>The great king must be pleased too. I guess no one will be able to raid his grave anymore.
Cheeky old man.

>>5573553

Then where is R3 and T260G from? Another star system?

>>5576325
>Then where is R3 and T260G from?
The past.
RB3 and T260G fought ages before the current times, how T260G's core ended up in Junk when the main body is in Shingrow is anyone's guess though.
We do know Trinity salvaged the ship in Shingrow and took its Cube among other things like the Omega body, T260G's main frame was possibly scrapped and ended up in Junk like all the rest of the cyber junk from the other regions does.

SaGa Frontier is too weird for me

>>5577260
Oh boy, what of games like Unlimited then?
What's so weird about it?

>>5577260
the strangeness is part of the appeal to me. Most probably cringed at the weirder parts, but I always felt at home.

>>5577176

Yes, 30-40 thousand years. But her backstory indicated that they were on a ship fighting something amid the regions. Like some kinda war, maybe with the gods from the previous games?

>>5577443

Kirin's pocket world looks like it does for the sake of making the lost children feel safe and a place to go. Its basically like a heaven for them.

>>5577443
Given how Kirin's dimension is made to be a paradise for orphaned or lost children it's pretty fitting it'd look like that though.
The art direction is really on point throughout the game, outside of maybe Devin being that weird even for the rest of the game, you have plenty of regions that were inspired by real place like Koorong/Kowloon being inspired by the walled city, Shingrow being fantasy Thailand or Manhattan being a quirky sci-fi version of Manhattan.
Chateau Aiguille really did make a lot for setting up both the mood for Fascinaturu and live up to its namesake, let alone show how mystic societies live, even the less complete parts like the IRPO HQ or Nelson end up being some cool parts of a whole.
>>5577959
>But her backstory indicated that they were on a ship fighting something amid the regions
No, they were fighting against each other, RB3(Region Buster 3) was tasked with the destruction of all regions while the HQ Ship (aka T260G in her original body) was on the faction opposing RB3, the details of said battle are lost but there's no such thing as fighting gods from previous SaGa games, unless it's some event in one of the mobile games I've missed, and those are all crazy non canon shit.

someone post a tier list for the best SaGa games

>>5571118
Is there a lot of lore missing from the game itself?

>>5578462

>Manhattan being a quirky sci-fi version of Manhattan

With no OSHA compliance.

So, there was a super advanced tech civ that went to war with a defense system that went nuts? That should be a side game in itself.

>>5578748
>So, there was a super advanced tech civ that went to war with a defense system that went nuts?
Nope RB3 is no defense system, it's a machine being created for the deliberate destruction of the region, hence the Region Buster name, the HQ guys were the ones who rose to stop this doomsday machine.
>That should be a side game in itself.
Why need a side game when you have SaGa 2 for that?

>>5578689
There are a lot of details that are not in the game. For example, the war between the gods was originally between Marda and Saiva. Saiva created new gods to serve at her side: Death, Saruin, Schirach, and Elore. However, Elore chose not to side with Saiva. The most info you get in-game about the history of the gods is in Aisha's scenario, which tells how most of the gods left Mardias after the war, so Elore and Nisa created new ones. The book has more info, though.

There's also a timeline of the history of Mardias, and background info on the culture and history of each region. In the Ultimania chapter there are all sorts of interesting details that aren't explained in-game. For example, Captain Silver's true form is the dragon. Elore granted her wish to become human on the condition that she protect the Opal, but as soon as she brought it back to her cave to hide it he turned her back into a dragon.

>>5580116
I was under the impression that Elore was jointly created by Marda and Saiva, and the others were created from Saiva's body.

>>5581113
My previous post was just from memory but I double-checked. The wording suggests that Saiva created Elore herself.
>サイヴァは自分の小指の爪先から息子のエロール神を産みました。

However, it later suggests there is a theory that Elore is the son of both Marda and Saiva.
>エロールはサイヴァとマルダーの息子だという説もあります。

I also need to correct a mistake I made. Death, Schirach, and Saruin were born from the body of Saiva after she was defeated. I had forgotten about that.

>>5579821

...interesting context.

>>5581250
>single mom's children go bad
the writers know what's up

>>5582237
More like orphaned children, and even in that case, the three evil gods are more like extensions of Saiva, Saruin was born from her heart, while Death and Schirach were born from her bones and hair iirc.

Not to mention, Schirach eventually regretted taking part on the war of the gods and was tormented by guilt, which is why she asked Elore to seal away her memories and make her live like a human, and even there, she lives a pitiful existence since all people who approach her eventually die, she's also the patron goddess of magic, and all the magic that humans use in Mardias was created by her iirc.
Death ended up being pretty neutral, he might close an eye on some of Saruin's actions, like the minions' meddling, but he's still not what you'd call a truly "evil" god, he does care for the natural order of life, he attends to the souls of the dead with great care and also got really mad at Saruin for creating the Soul Gutter, which is why he created the sealing formula and taught it to the people in Uso, who have an entire festival to honour Death.

The only true evil god of the three is Saruin, which is unsurprising since he was born from Saiva's heart, who must have harboured quite a lot of hatred for Marda.
The real villain in the story is definitely Marda, who not only created this whole mess by bitching with Saiva, he also fucked off after the war pretending his world isn't his responsibility, Elore might be shrewd and manipulative but at least he does care about Mardias and takes a pretty pragmatic stance about it all, leaving it up to its inhabitants to decide what's right and helping them in their endeavors, unlike Marda who just fucks off.

>>5582781
>the real villain is my dad

>>5583859
Makes sense when it's a deadbeat dad like Marda.
Can't always have good dads in this series, you must put some asshole once in a while and Marda is exactly that.

So, how would you feel about a SaGa Frontier 2 anime series done by Xebec?
Because it turns out there's a few animators out there who're big fans of the series, and there's this particularly hardcore one who likes to doodle SaGa stuff between work sessions

>>5585779

>>5585784

>>5585789

>>5585790

>>5585793

>>5585779
Pretty sure I heard xebec died recently. But the last time I watched anime they were working on the yamato remake and that was pretty cool so why not?

>>5586648
Yeah, former Xebec would be a better term, I guess wherever the former staff goes anyway, the corpse is still relatively warm.
Seems Unlimited is also pretty popular with the animator crowd, unsurprisingly I guess, given the quality of the 2D animations.

>>5586689

You wouldn't believe just how popular Kurt/Cash is too.

Is Unlimited SaGa worth playing as your first SaGa game?
Someone in my area is selling it for cheap.

Depends.
How much do you like tabletop games and dungeon crawlers?

>>5587276
Assuming reply to >>5587261

Answer is: Dungeon Crawlers are my favourite, and I currently DM a B/X game

>>5587308
>Dungeon Crawlers are my favourite, and I currently DM a B/X game
Good, next question:
How do you feel about dealing with extremely experimental mechanics on a system that doesn't give you any sort of tutorial whatsoever?
Mind you that the booklet won't have anything but the absolute, bare minimum either.

If you don't mind taking the plunge, I'd say get it since you start with the right preferences.
You should also keep in mind that Unlimited is VERY different in gameplay structure from the rest of the series, while it does keep the big formula the gameplay is still very different from anything before and after that, outside of maybe Scarlet Grace, which is still very diluted compared to Unlimited.
It's a pretty mechanically dense game which will take you some time to get used to, especially since it tries so many different things, and some parts can be very frustrating for a complete newcomer, especially since depending on the MC you can end up in an unwinnable scenario if you don't have backup saves, it's possibly the worst game for the average beginner, but at the end of the day, it mostly depends on the kind of person you are, and you start with the right background either way.
If you have any particular question ask away.

>>5587329
Thanks for the rundown. I'll get it and give it a go.

>>5587332
Alright, you made your choice.
Some words of advice though since the game is not player friendly and even less newfriend friendly
>DO NOT start with Kurt and Armic, they're for expert players
>It's a good idea to start with Ventus since he's the designated newbie MC and it's impossible to fail his campaign at any point in the game, mind that there's a price to pay for that though
>Ruby is another good choice for beginners since she gets a very powerful party and her special gimmick is basically Ventus' lite gimmick, although more technical
>Try not to follow a guide if you want the true SaGa experience, but don't persist if it gets too frustrating since it's Unlimited we're talking about
>DO NOT play this game like other RPGs, there's a wide variety of systems at play you probably won't even fathom after 50 hours
>Character growth in SaGa is dictated by what you do, similarly to FF2 or TES, this is what it's sometimes called a character history system.
>Unlimited takes this one step further by making your character history matter outside of battles too, so ALL you do during a quest matters in how the characters develop
>Panels are unique to Unlimited and account for both your toolkits AND your character stats, what panels you get depends on what you do in the time between each panel screen, which means that if you fail to complete a quest and then complete another your character history account for both quests
>Take your time to learn how to use your UI and shortcuts
>While the game has a topdown, tabletop like view it is, for all intents and purposes, a dungeon crawler

I guess there's more tips I could give you, but let's leave it at that for now, you can ask anytime for more stuff either way, all of these tips should ease you into the game.
But I can't stress this enough, do not expect an average JRPG, or even an average RPG at all, there's many reasons why Unlimited garnered so much hate.

What's the best version of each game? I want to give the series a shot.

>>5587356
>SaGa 1
Wonderswan Colour
>SaGa 2
GB
>SaGa 3
GB
>RS1
Wonderswan Colour
>RS2
PC/Vita
>RS3
Soon PC/Vita/Switch(?)
>SF
Playstation
>SF2
Playstation
>Unlimited
PS2
>Minstrel Song
There's a JP only PS3 rerelease which I think it's the "definitive" version but I don't know much outside of rumours, it's supposed to be the western version with JP VA and higher resolution.
>SaGa 2 GOD/SaGa3 SOL
NDS
>TLR
PC
>Scarlet Grace
PC/Switch

>>5587379
>>RS3
>Soon PC/Vita/Switch(?)

>>5587379
Thanks. Is there a reason to stay away from the switch version of 2?

>>5587382
What can I say, I'm waiting just like everyone else

>>5587384
Input lag
>But why worry about input lag in a turn based game, anon?
Problem is in SaGa games your enemies appear in the field, and you have to juke them, which isn't that fun with input lag.
Coupled with RS2's BR calculation being based on the number of fights you trigger, that's kind of a big deal.

>>5587384
There's a bit of lag but it's not SUCH a big deal. I could effectively evade enemies most of the times.

I'm playing as Mikhail in RS3 but i can't wrap around my head on how the ruling minigame works. money is scarce yet any decisions that need to be done demands more than i could make by taxing. i also have no idea on how to find other sources for that without fucking up my standing on the people. is there any way to reliably make enough money for this?

>>5588643
Mikhael is my least favorite MC in RS3, I have to say I don't really remember much of the intricacies of his ruling minigame.
About funds though, you can and should complete the merchant quest from Fullbright as he will give you 10K a pop for both parts of the quest, that's some pretty good amount of money you can get without a single fight.
Looting dungeons and selling the surplus items is also a good way to get some dosh for your funding, especially since it's not like you can disassemble those items in RS3, selling is always good in Mikhael's case.

Alternatively, you can use the Holy Ring trick to scum your way through it, but you need to go to Pidona and all the way through the last floor of the Demon King's palace, then go to Lance and get the ring, might as well do it if you grow impatient since this bug is very likely to get corrected in the remaster.
Iirc, Mikhael doesn't have a bank account like the other MCs either, he works like RS2 in the sense that all the surplus money you get by selling stuff doesn't go into your bank account but directly to the palace funds, I might be wrong about that though, so you should check it yourself.

>>5587379
>>Minstrel Song
>There's a JP only PS3 rerelease which I think it's the "definitive" version but I don't know much outside of rumours, it's supposed to be the western version with JP VA and higher resolution.
isn't it a ps2 release?

>>5589021
iirc it's a PSN only PS3 rerelease of the game.

Is there any way to fight bokhon and subier early? They seem to be meant to be fought kinda late, but since I'm trying to do an all female playthrough so they seem to be the more important ones to fight.

I don't want to read a guide, but I honestly see no way to fight them at earlier stages since you need the university for bokhon and a bunch of missions for subier.

>>5592191
The university is just one way to approach bokhon. As long as your empress is in a physically strong class (e.g. light infantry or free fighter), you can just go to the town his minions took over and get captured as a worker onboard the landship. Just plan a party that doesn't rely too much on weapons because they'll be unequipped.

Subier requires lots of stuff including the passage of time, I don't recall exactly how his quest works if you skip to the final empress early but if you do a 3-generation run or something then you need to fight him last

>>5592615
Subier is really just an endgame hero, huh? shame, I'll do try the bokhon thing tho. Thanks dude

Got Romancing SaGa 2 on steam when it was on sale. How do you even play these games without a guide or save scumming?

I want to ask if these games have any spooky areas

>>5592823
It might seem odd at first if its your first game in the series but just wander around and you'll figure it out soon enough. Once you get past the intro if you ever get a game over you get the opportunity to make a new team to counter whatever just killed you.
If you've heard any memes about battle rank ignore them; while you do fight stronger enemies as the number of battles increases, this is just so you fight appropriately leveled enemies whichever way you decide to progress the game.

>>5592191
Bokuhon can be fought very early simply by taking the slaver route, though you need specific emperor classes for that, and like the other anon said it's best to have a party of martial artists or mages, and somebody who can put that fire sword you find in there to good use.
Subier is a bit trickier since it requires you to start the quest chains in North Rongit, which means you have to do those asap if you want to fight him relatively early but you'll still need a few generations to get to him.
I'm not sure if by taking the lord of the sea route by building the bridge lets you fight him earlier than that though, never tried myself.
>>5592829
Wouldn't say so outside of a few games like the Frontier games, Minstrel Song or Unlimited, and they're more unsettling than spooky, like the Tower of Laubholz or the Megaliths.
Now that I think about it the Tower of Laubholz is definitely creepy, especially the more you dive into it.

>>5592829
Netherworld and Isle of Evil in the original RS1 come to mind. They aren't quite as spooky in the remake.

>>5592959
>They aren't quite as spooky in the remake.
The purgatory is pretty spooky though, so is Quietum.
The Isle of Evil does look pretty weird in Minstrel Song though.

>>5593060
>The purgatory is pretty spooky though
Yeah, but the effect wears thin when you've been in there for an hour and it keeps repeating the same rooms over and over. There's nothing in the Netherworld as spooky as that room in the original full of dragons and dozens of crumbling staircase tiles. Minstrel Song has Julius Iuvanus, at least.

I also think Quietus was spookier in the original with those pulsing tubes you could travel through and whatnot.

>>5593089
>when you've been in there for an hour and it keeps repeating the same rooms over and over.
Wouldn't be much of a purgatory now, wouldn't it?
>those pulsing tubes you could travel through
Quietus' layout is pretty different in MS all in all.
It's funny that they got rid of those in the map and then added them back as part of Saruin's first phase.
I guess they ran out of budget when it came to dungeon design, the new layouts were mostly fine but graphically they're pretty bland.
Now that I think about it, the minions were also pretty creepy in their original design compared to the MS' redesign.

>>5592884
>>5592959
I mean not like RE or SH type of spooky, just kind of creepy or unsettling, like the kind of atmosphere in something like Garage: Bad Dream Adventure.

>>5593972
I don't think there's much like it in the series outside of the aforementioned places like the old Isle of Evil or Quietus.
There's Virgil's palace in Muspelnibur which is pretty ominous or the megaliths, but there's not much that has that kind of atmosphere, outside of again, the Tower of Laubholz which is a pretty fucked up place, but that kind of settles in the more you explore it.
At first it looks like this really bizarre Escher's labyrinth, then you explore it in depth and see all the fucked up stuff in there and realize what it truly is, that's where it becomes unsettling.
Perhaps some of places in Unlimited are like that too, like the forgotten coliseum, Undercity Pharos or Escata's palace, but it's mostly because of the sound direction and quest design, visually they're not intimidating in the least and it's hard for most people to get immersed.

>>5592823
>save scumming
No such thing. Abuse multiple save slots like a lunatic. Sometimes I even reroll a boss fight because I want to learn more skills.

>>5594345
Yeah, was more asking simply because of how colorful and pleasant the games seem to look from screenshots I've seen, outside of stuff in caves. Not that that's a bad thing though, I love the enemy design.

>>5595857
Perhaps Frontier's weird setting might interest you more than the rest of the series.
Unlimited also has a weird setting, but it's not really a game that goes for the visual spectacle so it's hard to recommend in that sense, all the dungeon art is very good though and as I said it has masterful sound direction.
RS3 also looks gorgeous and since it's a Romancing game it has that kind of fantasy globe trotting variety that is always nice, there's some really great places to look at and the game feels very atmospheric.
Frontier 2 has a decidedly european feeling, so outside of the weird fantasy stuff here and there it's very nice when it comes to that, and the art direction is stellar all around, not a single bad looking area.
TLR takes a more generic fantasy approach but it's still pretty good looking in its own right, outside of too many caves, Siebenbur especially.

The rest of the sries is kind of a hit or miss, either too old or just not that interesting visually outside of one or two fun places, like Kai's body.