/vr/ - Retro Games

>>5426482
By not being a zoomer

>>5426482
By not being a brainlet

By not being a pleb

A lot of people dislike turn based combat until they try a game that makes them "click" with it.
In my case Chrono Trigger and Suikoden 1 were the reason why I love JRPGs so much now,so my advice would be to give either one a chance.
Personally,I would choose Suikoden since the combat is pretty fast and you don't have to worry about leveling.
Have fun!

By playing good games using it like HOMM3, Panzer General, Jagged Alliance, etc. Avoid japanese games especially their trash """RPG's""", they are made for dumb children

Avoid being a brainlet pleb like this guy >>5426512

>>5426514
lol spotted the mad weeb fag

>>5426516
>JAPANESE BAD
>WESTERN GOOD

You don't have to.

>>5426512
>says something is childish because he doesn’t like it
>says something is childish because he doesn’t like it

Boy the weebs really are mad someone talked shot about their poor Wizardy clones and panty quest games
Almost forgot roguelikes, those destroy jap shit too. Only exception is Elona

>>5426482
Be Japanese.

>>5426482
Play Etrian Odyssey.

>deleted posts
what happened? Wrpg-kun was here?

>>5426482
>>5426514
The Jap hating was unnecessary, especially given that there are turn-based Japanese games that almost certainly fit his expectations (Front Mission or Fire Emblem, for example), but >>5426512 does actually have a point.

Turn based combat can be very enjoyable when it has a degree of depth to it. Many games that implement turn-based combat on a tactical level (i.e. involving movement) are a ton of fun. JA2 is fantastic, and XCOM is another game I'd heavily recommend. I'm sure OP was probably talking about the standard RPG turn-based combat, though. In that regard, I think it's just a love it or hate it sort of thing--either you like watching the big numbers, or you don't.

Most JRPGs I've played tend to have, at best, superficial depth to their combat systems, rather than genuinely challenging strategizing (that, or most combat is very rote and uninteresting, and only a few fights require strategizing). I feel like these games are best enjoyed for their stories. If you don't like the story, then don't bother. Of course, many developers recognized this sort of combat could be kind of boring, and there are some attempts to make the formula more interesting by adding more active, dynamic combat systems. Chrono Trigger is a good example.

Charles Barkley's Shut Up and Jam! Gaiden

>>5426482
Take the meds your doctor gave you for your ADHD

>>5426482
Try a roguelike where each turn actually matters.

>>5426482
Fast forwarding in emulation

>>5426724
>>5426492
>>5426485
Boomer here. I'm fucking done with turn-based combat. There's nothing that requires THINKING in it, over half of JRPG's can be completed by overgrinding and using only the attack command.

Only exception to this are the SMT/Persona games but that's not even thinking, you're basically playing a match-4 game that obscures the elements.

>>5426748
>boomer here
stopped reading there

>>5426748
Roguelikes

>>5426482
You need to become a goofy soulbonder with a deviantart

Try SRPGs.

>>5426482
By thinking 10s if not 100s of moves in advanced.

>>5426897
ok so in a hundred moves odds are that it would be advantageous to use my best magic move, heal any party member with lowish health or just attack

>>5426748
The problem with turn based combat isn't the concept of turn based combat itself, it's that devs don't understand what makes the good examples compelling. What they do understand though is that they don't even need to care anyway if they want to release a marketable product because the average audience for JRPGs understands just as little as they do and are ready to eat up anything as long as it's stylish enough.

Turn based RPGs work when they aren't afraid to use their whole bag of tricks against you (buffs, debuffs, status effects and clever encounter design with interesting enemy pairings that play off one another's strenghts) and force you out of your comfort zone, and only a few games seem to get that right. FF is good with this, DQ looks deceptively simple but the older games have a lot of this as well, Etrian Odyssey has some really tricky encounters too. A lot of games will give you a ton of different skills and character building options that are all ultimately superfluous because the game will never put you in a situation where brute forcing through an encounter with your strongest skills isn't a viable option

Dragon Quest 11 isn't retro but the boss fights on hard mode really force you to act tactically and be intelligent about your party composition and when to switch characters in and out. You can also respect your characters any time you want and it's critical that you plan your builds accordingly for a given situation if you want to stand a chance. Most people seem to have a hard time getting over it's presentation and are perfectly happy to write it off as another generic jarpig but it has easily some of the most engaging and flexible combat i've seen in any JRPG i've ever played. Check it out if you think you know your shit

>>5427335
>respect
meant to write "respec"

>>5426748
>Zoomer here
FTFYK

>>5427314
I think the real issue is that the core jrpg audience doesn't want difficult combat, time and popularity has shown they mostly like to grind and break systems to be able to steamroll everything in the way. Etrian Odyssey is great but it will never be as popular as the generic easy power fantasies are.

>>5427335

This. Glad they went with this as I was disapointed with persona 5 being dumbed down.

>>5427373
This is also true, I remember seeing people in the persona 5 threads on /v/ complain about artificially inflated difficulty in hard mode because some of the tougher enemies weren't guaranteed to go down in a single all out attack. The average JRPG fan can't stand it when they try to brute force and end up butting their head against a wall. On a similar note i've also seen people complain about having to make trips back to town to recover or having to be conservative with MP about a lot of different games too. Why not just admit to yourself that you don't like the genre instead of trying to "fix" it by removing or downplaying everything that actually makes it compelling to people who actually care

>>5428430
>Why not just admit to yourself that you don't like the genre instead of trying to "fix" it

I know it's not what you meant, but I think this applies to the people wanting jrpgs to be a hardcore genre when outside of a handful of titles, most of them very early it's never been like that. To me it's the equivalent of trying to "fix" Spyro or Kirby to make it hardcore and challenging.

>>5428732
There's room for both styles just like Kirby and Castlevania can both coexist, JRPGs that cater to a more hardcore purist audience just happen to be significantly under represented

>>5428907
I do get what you're saying, and sorely wish there were more games out there like Etrian Odyssey. But at the same time if I were leading development on a jrpg I'd probably make it on the more accessible side to maximize sales. Why more don't have a difficulty option is strange to me Though.

>>5426482
tisanes and comfy

Play FFX. It's the greatest combat system ever made.

/vr/ simply might be the wrong board to ask this question, turn based has only improved over the years. if you asked me, menu rpgs are plain boring, and sure you can play arkanoid and worms armageddon but breakquest and hedgewars are both respectively better AND free, and both arent /vr/. and then if you asked me the 4x genre is a complete dud until civilizations revolution which simply has superior rules (even sid meier said "this is the game i always wanted to make"). maybe you can find interest in a story game like planescape torment (not a recommendation, ive never played it)

>>5426482
Get dragons and Armageddon, and you'll end battles in one turn.

>>5429397
It's kind of sad, but he's right the gameplay in a lot of old turn based games really hasn't aged well.

In Super Mario RPG, there were buttons you had to push in order to get the most out of an attack or ability so turn based is not always straight forward.

Also, I recommend checking some time-based systems such as Chrono Trigger.

>>5429915
>aged
GET OUT

>>5429945
For fuck's sake grow up.

>>5428430
>having to be conservative with MP
Dragon Quest 1 through 11 does this.
What's the point? So now you have even less options against random encounters to save up for the big boss at the end. And then the boss just becomes a buff and special attack spam anyway. Same combat flow left unchanged for 30 years. AND YOU CANCER WILL PRAISE THIS. KILL THIS GAY GENRE ALREADY.

>>5429960
Are you being serious? lol

>>5429960
>every 2 steps in the map gets you into a battle
>mash attack attack attack to save up mp
>attack attack attack attack the whole game
I just don't understand how anyone can like this garbage. It boggles my mind how terrible and devoid of depth these jarpigs are.

>>5429967
That is exactly what happens in Dragon Quest, the only healing item in the entire game is a herb that heals you for 30 hp. You don't want to use your boomer spells against small fry since it barely deals more damage than a normal attack anyway. Just mash X the whole game away, mash your life away. Slowly watch it all end while Vegita in a blonde wig, twintails wig and a pink dress smiles at you. I can't express into words how much I despise this putrid genre and the sick empty shells of human beings that plays them.

>>5429971
Dear God, what a horrible nightmare.

>all these seething westcucks and shmupfags

>>5426482
Learn that it's not necessarily about "depth"
Big reason why the Dragon Quest games are so beloved is that the battles are QUICK. The strategy of the combat isn't about individual battles. It's simple resource management as you explore dungeons and the overworld. It's not the most complex thing in the world but it's fun. Battles can fly by in a few seconds but if you're unlucky (and yes, RNG can be fun, fuck you) it could fuck you up. The game also lets you modulate your difficulty a bit by giving you freedom in how you equip your characters.


Other games, where individual encounters are more tactically engaging, should be balanced around having less combat and no random encounters. BoFV Dragon Quarter, and Vagrant Story both do this well.


Another thing lot of the joy people derive from these games aren't from "solving" individual encounters or bosses but "solving" how to defeat enemies and clear dungeons most efficiently.

>>5426482
Turn the difficulty up. It forces you to actually learn the battle system. Every move starts to count when you're not just spamming Attack with the occasional heal. Carefully selecting every move is what turned-based games are about, since it's something you can't do in an action game. Think of it as cranking the difficulty on an action game up to the point that you have slow it to a crawl and carefully select every input so that you play perfectly. That's how you enjoy a turn-based game.

>>5426482
Play Bowser's inside story, it's got a more interactive experience than just click attack untill the enemy dies. Timing button presses actually increases the effectiveness of attacks. Makes the tun base more involved and less auto.

The issue with people who think they can fix JRPGs is that when they actually play a game that addresses their issues, they hate it. See: the SaGa series, which is hated by 99% of western players. SaGa eliminates grinding, gives you a fully open world, has interesting and fast-paced combat, no random encounters, equipment actually matters beyond just being straight upgrades, weapon types all have different effects as well as working logically (arrows won't hurt skeletons but they will hurt birds), highly replayable, no long cutscenes, not hundreds of hours per playthrough, high difficulty, etc. etc.
And yet when westcucks play these games, they don't understand at all, bitch about it not being "enough like a JRPG."

>>5430184
SaGa has unfriendly tutorials, terrible characters and disjointed story and a general unfinished prototype feeling.

>>5430221
Even the manual doesn't do a very good job of explaining the game mechanics, you really need a faq.

>>5429960
>>5429968
There's a middle ground between spamming your strongest spells constantly and saving up all of your MP to make sure you never run out, a key part of the RPG experience (both western and japanese) is experimenting with when and how you should use up your resources. Of course you aren't going to have fun if you're too stubborn to engage with the part of the game where half the fun actually is. I'm trying to make an effort to stay constructive and not just lash out at people but man this kind of goes to show that people who bitch about turn based RPGs can't even wrap their head around the most basic tactical approach to combat

>>5430184
I wish Kawazu had had a handler or something to keep him on track, SaGa has lots of great ideas and just as many terrible ones (or good ideas that just happen to be poorly executed)

>>5430221
>terrible characters
stop right there

>>5429397
>civilizations revolution which simply has superior rules (even sid meier said "this is the game i always wanted to make")
I seriously think you're the first person I've seen who has ever espoused this view since just about everyone thinks it's a gigantic betrayal

>>5429397
>civilizations revolution which simply has superior rules
You mean the ruleset so broken the AI can't play and even the biggest morons can manage when playing?

>>5426482
you don't play shitty rpgs what use the old and tired frontal combat system.

play the original avernum trilogy or roguelikes

and those who think it's a japan only problem, they need to play more games.

>>5430451
It's only tired because devs try to "fix" it by dumping more and more fluff on top of it instead of understand where the real issues lie: combat options that lack flexibility (endless variations on straight damage skills with varying hit rates and elemental affinities, straightforward buffs, debuffs and status inducing skills, etc.) and lazy, unchallenging encounter design

>>5430184
The combat is not that different from any other jrpg. On top of that, fixing the combat is not he same as removing random encounters.

>>5426482
fuck off /v/ aka obese fedora-kun

>>5430827
Visible encounters the way they're implemented in games like SaGa are even worse than random encounters and they feel even grindier (one of the main things they're meant to address) since leaving it up to the player to engage them (there isn't a game where you can't avoid them unless you're physically or mentally challenged) presents enemies as a chore you have to clear out instead of an unpredictable hazard

>>5426503
>JRPGs

>>5430169
great post anon
sorry for all the brainlets ITT

>>5430951
One thing that annoys me immensely is when people start giving some of their own suggestions to fix the genre until you realize they don't actually want to play a JRPG, they want Baldur's Gate with anime tits

If a JRPG doesnt give you that feeling of tension and exhilaration from trying to walk back out of a dungeon low on health, low on MP, out of consumables and with only half of your party alive, it's not a good JRPG

>>5426503
>In my case Chrono Trigger and Suikoden 1 were the reason why I love JRPGs so much now,so my advice would be to give either one a chance.

That's completely retarded given CT has one of the simplest and least interesting combat systems there is, with only the tech gimmick, which basically boils down to selecting whatever does the most damage for a given time.

>>5431031
CT would kick so much ass if the positioning was more fleshed out instead of being a situational thing

>>5427335
>it has easily some of the most engaging and flexible combat i've seen in any JRPG i've ever played

This is my experience as well. So many different options actually work.

The fact that the series lets you swap out your equipment loadout mid battle is one very underrated aspect of the games too. There are so many different things to optimize, and it's possible to do so since the game gives you the tools to do so any given time.

>>5431046
>The fact that the series lets you swap out your equipment loadout mid battle is one very underrated aspect of the games too
Every jarpig lets you do this.

>>5431018
So basically wizardry. Just go play wizardry.

>>5426482
Be so shit at video games you think navigating menus constitutes as a skill.

>>5431096
I've played wizardry

>>5431093
More proof people who throw that term around don't even play them.

>>5426653
Etrian Odyssey's combat is boring. Boss fights are a chore. I like everything else about the games though.

t. played 1-5

>>5426654
>>/vr/thread/S5426482

>>5433117
I find it hard to believe you played through five of those games while disliking the combat that much. If true you're kinda retarded.

>>5430221
>SaGa has unfriendly tutorials
Older SaGa has none, as it should.
But the problem has already been addressed since the PS2 days and you people STILL whine about it, because you're actually just dumb and can't comprehend a simple set of basic mechanics while pretending that knowing things like Simulacrum is somehow vital and the games having the balls to have an actual learning curve YOU have to understand on your own is bad design.
>terrible characters
Fuck you.
>a general unfinished prototype feeling.
Lol, but better to have that than being another generic piece of shit I guess.
>>5430843
>and they feel even grindier
Yeah, I guess that's why you can speedrun the games with next to no fighting and the average speedrun for a campaign is barely two hours and is basically 99% boss fights.
>presents enemies as a chore you have to clear out instead of an unpredictable hazard
Lol, you can ignore most of what you come across, games like Minstrel Song even encourage you to fight as little as you can because unlike other RPGs, SaGa games actually reward you for how you fight and not how much you fight, if you're clearing out maps in a SaGa game you're playing in the most unoptimal, braindead way possible, especially since games like RS2, Unlimited or MS actually punish you for wasting time on too many battles.

As the other anon said, you people just like to bitch about shit you don't like like random encounters, but when something actually does solve the problems you bitch that it's not what you wanted.
Fact is you people are just brainlets who like to muse about how much you want games that challenge your superior intellect and solve all your oh, so big problems with JRPGs, but then when the cook turns up the heat for real and ask you to step up you leave the kitchen crying like little bitches because you just can't handle it.

>>5433379
You need to relax next time someone criticizes your darling series. I wanna see someone defend SaGa without resorting to the same tired 2deep4you "filthy casuals" namecalling

Why would you make a game that punishes the player for playing it? What if I genuinely enjoy the combat in SaGa games and I want to fight without crippling myself because of Kawazu's genius 9000 IQ ultimate pleb filter level scaling system?

>>5433153
>great music
>excellent monster and character designs
>sailing and shit is cool
>mapping floors is fun and very rewarding
Totally worth it.

>>5433379
>you people just like to bitch about shit you don't like like random encounters, but when something actually does solve the problems you bitch that it's not what you wanted
>"We replaced your cancer with pure strain AIDS!"

>>5433430
>You need to relax next time someone criticizes your darling series.
Oh, I am plenty relaxed unlike you, come back when you have actual arguments instead of hurt feelings, honey.
Maybe then I'll stop treating you like the little bitch you are and we can have an actual discussion instead of having me or other people point out your usual bullshit and exposing you every damn time.

You don't like something, fine by me, but I'm sick and tired of reading the same misinformation if not plain nonsense regurgitated every damn time since years, like SaGa being grindier than other RPG, if you're that upset of people pointing out your room temperature IQ I suggest you do something about it and listen to people.

>>5434648
>like SaGa being grindier than other RPG

Is the stuff that you could do to avoid grinding stuff that you could work out with the information you are given, or is this shit you could only reasonably do with a guide?

>>5426482

Play Golden Sun and its sequel.

>>5426482
I started enjoying it significantly more when I learned to actually take my time with them. Planning, optimizing your approach and being rewarded with increased effectiveness as a result is nice. The game needs to be challenging enough for it to matter though, so some of them may require coming up with restrictions to make them more fun.

>>5426482
You don't. It's like watching little kids play pretend.
>"Ok, so I hit YOU, so now YOU get to hit ME!"
No skill involved, unless you consider ordering from menus at restaurants a skill.

>>5434648
I truly hope my posts are making you assmad enough to give you an aneurysm

>>5430221
SaGa games are basically dungeon crawlers, who the fuck plays crawlers for the story and the character development, you fucking /v/irgin?

I used to look down on turn-based until xcom. Tabletop rpg-style combat is way too abstracted to be engaging, so other game elements must motivate the player. I imagine it's popular because it's cheap to program and test.

>>5426694
^This.

>>5436621
>Tabletop rpg-style combat is way too abstracted to be engaging,

Wow really? I don't think that at all.

I can't think of a game with turn-based combat that doesn't also incorporate movement that's actually engaging and tactical. Games like Final Fantasy Tactics and Temple of Elemental Evil have great combat that makes you think and plan your choices, but even Shin Megami Tensei games boil down to "use the right element against enemies and buff/debuff on bosses."

I could just not be playing the right games, though. But that's my experience.

>>5438687
Try roguelikes. Positioning being tactical and important is considered one of the key values of the genre.

>>5426482
Find a game which has a system that rewards strategy or fiddling with stats and buffs/debuffs to augment the flow of combat in interesting ways.

Golden Sun's a good example of this kind of interpretation of the turn based system. If that's not your thing, you could try offshoots of the turn based style of gameplay to see if they're more your cup of tea (Mario RPGs, Panzer Dragoon Saga)

>>5438685
I meant Tabletop rpg-style combat as implemented in retro games. i.e., the jrpg combat that's under discussion in this thread.
>>5438687
>>5438704
Speaking of roguelikes, dwarf fortress combat is so detailed that somebody invented a practical martial art for use in the adventure (rpg) mode.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148015.0
Yet another evidence of how amazing df is.
I used some of the techniques to good effect in my playthroughs.

>>5438704
Yeah, I agree. I may have worded it weirdly, my intention was that movement and positioning brings a lot of strategy to a turn based combat system, whereas systems without it tend to iterations of rock paper scissors with buffs.

>>5426482
People think strategy is all about how simply moving units around and besting another player. Yet at its core, it isn't, its about dealing with uncertainty. Thats why the best strategy games have significant random elements, to create uncertainty. Panzer General (with Fantasy general), Steel Panthers, Atomic's V for Victory series, are the best examples. Most of the games people cite as "good strategy games" actually aren't strategy games at all. Chess is not a good "strategy game" neither is X-Com, starcraft or most RTS. They have their own strategy elements, but not games that require good understandings of probabilities and their effects on planning..

>>5426482
You don't

You either feel immensely bored just pissing in the wind

Or sit there feeling helpless as some OP boss thing wrecks your shit

>>5439370
This is a super brainlet post.

>>5439447
You're totally right and this is a fundamental issue the genre doens't seem interested in fixing. Most people who play JRPGs play them because they enjoy getting more powerful while going through a story, and pretending that their decisions are strategic; only an extreme minority care about deeper level tactics. Because of this there is usually only a tiny sweetspot between getting wrecked and steamrolling your opponent, and this spot is usually the most dominated by randomness that the player can't do much about *because* there is a lack of positioning and meaningfully intelligent responses.

>>5426485
>>5426492
>>5426495
>action dumb
>turn-based smart!

>>5426492
This response makes no sense, as the main reason turn based combat games are boring is that theyre too easy. It's always obvious what the optimal move is in 90% of the JRPGS I have played.

>>5439647
Different games have varying degrees of luck. Some games are completely deterministic, such as chess, go, and tic-tac-toe, and some trivial games such as snakes and ladders are governed entirely by luck.

This can be contrasted against a game like Fire Emblem. In Fire Emblem, a unit typically has one attack, though may have two in some situations, and four or more in very rare situations. Units also have a chance to hit, but it is dependent heavily on the attacker's skill, and in particular, it is common for an attacker to achieve a very high chance to hit, and a 100% chance to hit is common. (If a player wants, they can optimize to almost always have 100% chance to hit).

This approach is more satisfying for many gamers, because they feel in control of the game. They can normally achieve a 100% chance to hit, they can use units that have poor dodge abilities but high resistance to damage, and expect to usually be hit, but take relatively little damage. They can play Fire Emblem close to being a deterministic game.

This has a certain appeal to it, and is fun in its way. In particular, one can often in a turn in Fire Emblem carefully plan out one's moves, work out how many enemies one can definitively knock out, and can plan to avoid any chance of one's own characters dying.

However, in my opinion this kind of gameplay has only a limited amount of appeal.

Additionally, a big reason why the Fire Emblem approach works in Fire Emblem is that the Fire Emblem AI isn't...really even an AI. It is closer to being 'scripted'. The enemy doesn't move intelligently at all. Most enemy units just stand still until you move in range, then they charge forward and attack. This makes Fire Emblem closer to a puzzle game than a strategy game.

>>5439672
None of those posts said anything about action being dumb, and there's your first mistake. There's no action-vs-turnbased "war" There's great turn based games AND there's great action games. Video games are fucking awesome and your tiny brain can't comprehend anything else other than the most simple red/blue dichotomy.

>>5427373
I think you've hit the nail on the head. I like the idea of depth to a battle, but the JRPGs ive played i only ever grind and steamroll because it feels
a) good to be powerful and'
b) like statuses, buffs and debuffs aren't important enough
I like turn-based combat like in civilization or hearts of iron though, so perhaps im just not the jrpg target audience.

>>5439672
Utterly retarded, cancerous frogposter

>>5440107
Turn based can only be engaging when playing human opponents. Like chess.

>>5440183
or puzzle games? Or tactical strategy games? I'd hate to think you're saying that games likes Master of Orion isn't engaging. I feel like you haven't really thought this out.

>>5440236
Pro-tip: that guy is totally clueless about games

>>5440239
I wonder how they feel about games that have both a turn-based and an action component to them. Or sims where you can control the speed of time. Or even RPGs that allow you to pause to take turns but are otherwise real time? Does active-time battles count as turn-based or action? They're arguing for a meaningless division.

>>5439732
The best game where you must take luck into consideration is Battle for Wesnoth, but it seems to trigger casuals.

>>5440248
Equally clueless is my bet.

>>5440362
This looks really interesting to me, but I have to say, it also looks like an autistic wet dream.

Talking about randomness as if it all comes down to a coin flip is a real short sighted interpretation, there's a lot of strategic depth involved when a game gives you opportunities to stack the odds in your favor. It's as if you started bitching about the RNG in M:TG because you keep drawing the wrong cards

>>5442629
>Talking about randomness as if it all comes down to a coin flip is a real short sighted interpretation

For most JRPGs, not really. There's nothing much good that randomness achieves in most of those games, and if anything randomness just makes them dumber by:

a) Making it so that the 'safe' and 'reasonable' thing occasionally doesn't work
b) Having the high risky high reward option sometimes work

To show why this is dumb in practice, lets look at the consequences involved. Let's the the player dies against a boss. Well, no matter, the only thing they risk losing is time spent doing it again, so all that matters is that our strategy has a chance of winning that isn't absurdly low. In most cases there's a trade off between this and time spent grinding, but lets do the genre a favor by ignoring that and instead assuming that the player has to use the resources they have no matter what. Now, let's assume that the boss is so hard, due to our resources being so tight, that we realize that our safe strategy of using mostly guaranteed, low risk techniques just isn't going to work no matter what we do. However, we also have a bunch of attacks that seem to be able to enable us to do more damage, but which have something like a 50% risk of failing. What to do? Well of course, we just use our super risky moves until a string of them works enough times that we get get our bosses HP down to 0 before he kills us, and keep dying until that happens. Most things you could do to 'optimize' the fight will likely turn out to be variations of this; i.e. maybe you have some turn where you could heal, because you know that the boss has some attack that could kill you, but since he does this randomly you can decide to 'cheat' and get an extra attack in instead. In most cases you'll want to not do this, but if there's no other way, then you end up ultimately being rewarded for doing the 'dumb' thing and it happening to work out.

>>5426482
listen to a book on tape as you play.

>>5442629
Agreed. Many people complain about the randomness in roguelikes but it's one of the things that truly makes the genre shine for me and what makes them vastly more interesting to play than the closely related rpgs.

>>5440362
That looks neat. What about it turns off casuals?

>>5440124
Games like Civ and other strategy games the focus is combat. Jrpgs combat is usually more just filler.

>>5426482
Do you enjoy chess? If not, you will never like turn based combat. The fundamental concept is the same for both games. An appreciation for speculation, prediction, and strategy based on what you can accomplish in a single turn, and acting proactively or reactively based on what your opponent can do / has done on their turn.

>>5443241
Maybe I'm a weirdo but it's hard for me to imagine someone not liking chess.

>>5426482
Play Pokémon

>>5426482
Have you tried Final Fantasy Tactics?

>>5443339
>white has the advantage
DAS SUM RACIS SHIET

>>5429915
reddit

>>5440107
While there's no 'war', fewer good turn-based games come out every year because the medium has evolved more towards action-based games. People just kind of want games where they can click on a bad guy until it dies, like in MMOs.

>>5443224
This is actually really true. It's a shame, too, and it's what gives a lot of people their bias towards turn-based combat. Most JRPGs just don't have an engaging battle system and battles that are challenging enough to bother paying attention to anything outside of boss battles. Etrian Odyssey is one of relatively few games that does this pretty well, as you have to adapt your strategy to deal with different enemy configurations. Even other Atlus games like SMT don't get this right - I was playing SMT Nocturne recently and goddamn the random encounters are dull and monotonous.

>>5444758
>Etrian Odyssey

Is this game actually, really, genuinely tactical or does it fall into a formula like every other thing in the genre that people claim is 'actually good this time, I promise'.

>>5444810
It's tactical, in the sense that fight, fight, fight will get you killed, quickly. You have more control over your characters' growth and what skills they learn than in most JRPGs that came before it. I'm gonna post this because I already typed it out, but in the future, don't expect a reply to a comment (on this board) about a game that's not /vr/.

>>5444810
It isn't, you fight hoards of really weak enemies that can be taken out in a formulaic predictable way that attempt to whittle you down little by little until you fight an FOE (optional roaming mini bosses) or a boss fight where some semblance of tactics actually exists. The FOE's are the most interesting aspect because they are all over the place and you can choose when to fight them which can make them pretty strategic at the right levels (or luck based). It's not really any different to the usual JRPG though it has more indepth party building than usual with classes and multi-classing.

>>5444810
It's still an rpg so it's got that basic turn based combat, the tactics are more in party building and planning your skills so you can deal with what's being thrown at you. Fairly early in 3 (I think it was) you start running into enemies that will inflict a poison status that can kill a character in a round or two then soon after into enemies who use an AOE version of it. You'll frequently have to use various buffs and debuffs on common enemies in a way you hardly ever need to in rpgs. If you don't grind they can be a fun challenge. It's not like playing a roguelike but as far as jrpg combat goes it's as good as it gets.

Do you guys know the name of an old ds / psp game that was turn based (I think) where at the start one of the main characters turns into a more excited version of herself for some reason? People here said it had good combat but I can't remember the fucking name

>>5426482
Never play an RPG for its gameplay, easily the weakest part unless it's an action RPG.

>>5426482
by going outside and making enough friends to play a tabletop game.

>>5426492
>"you have to have a pretty high IQ to enjoy turn based combat."
>90% of combat JRPGs are glorified games of rock, paper, scissors.
I'm sorry anon but you're not as smart as you think you are and in all honesty you should be thanking me for being so honest with you.

i can give you strategy games & tactical RPGs but that's all i'm going to give you.

>its another "I hate JRPGs" thread
I wish you faggots would fuck off already. If you don't like them, don't play them.

>>5442674
Some games do it well and some games don't and looks to me more like you haven't played the right games. In a good game, the question of risk is just the biggest underlying decision. Your abstract description of a fight shouldn't ever happen exactly like that. In a good game, there will be several layers of decision-making.

>Strategy/goals.
This doesn't always show up, but often there are several different outcomes to any given battle (eg. win, or win and also steal the rare item)
>Overall tactical plan.
The overall approach you take going in can be higher-risk or lower-risk. Often, it can be difficult or costly to switch your tactical plan mid-battle.
>Critical scenario decisions
Sometimes individual decisions in a battle have a lot of weight. Maybe you take a big risk early in the battle hoping for a quick win, but that fails, a character gets KO'd and you spend the rest of the battle playing catch-up. Maybe you've played a solid battle but it's coming down to the wire, you know the boss is almost dead and you have to decide to try and finish him off on this turn or heal and try and soak up another round of damage.
>Reactionary decisions.
Sometimes, either due to RNG or the enemy doing something you did not anticipate, you find your original tactical plan has failed and you have to come up with something new on the fly. You have to decide who to rez first, who to heal/cure first, how to stay alive while trying to regain the advantage, and so on.
>Routine decisions.
A good game will have lots of decisions to make, and many of them may or may not pay off or have consequences. The fun is in making them just in case. For example, using a "bounce spells on the boss" tactic requires picking a character to have the wall buff, and that character won't be able to be healed by normal spells after that. Choosing which character to hold the wall is a minor decision that you have to make that may or may not make a difference in the end.

>>5445072
>by going outside and making enough friends to play a tabletop game.

Having played a lot of tabletop games, you usually don't meet those people by going outside.

>>5426748
You're disregarding almost every CRPG and TRPG out there, friend
Read a book

>>5447723
I assumed that must be a false flag of some sort. It's possible I suppose, but hard to imagine someone actually that old who's into games enough that they come to post on 4chan yet at the same time be so clueless that the only turn based ones they know about are jrpgs.

>>5445256
>A good game will have lots of decisions to make, and many of them may or may not pay off or have consequences. The fun is in making them just in case.

Agreed, that's where the fun in strategy games lies. The more options the player has, the better.

>>5427052
Only for a lazily designed game, or if you're grinding past the point of good balance.