/vr/ - Retro Games

>>5412790
>high quality boutique retro gaming hardware devices
examples?

>>5412790
Never. Accept your cathode tube will die and embrace the comforting light that is CRT-Royale.

They still make new, shitty CRTs in India and China, but that's about at the level of a 90s Korean TV set you bought at Wal-Mart. What people really want (ie. premium brands like a 2000s Wega) will never come back because they're no longer cost-viable to produce.

>>5412805

This. You'll need to spend big now to get OLEDs that can even hope to match a CRT or wait until QLEDs so they don't degrade.

>>5412790
never gonna happen. Stuff like d24's sold for 30,000 new.

>>5412790
Not long, senpai. Not long.
>collectors sweating intensifies

Video game collectors are some of the most materialistic people ever

>>5412790
You know how much these things cost to make and how small the market is? It's never going to happen.

>>5413010
And?

>>5412790
Exactly what "high quality boutique retro gaming hardware devices" are "we" seeing? I see a lot of remakes of old chinkshit using modern technology but in most cases it's inferior in most ways.
Making CRTs to cater to the bandwagoner market could be risky. Doing arcade screens might be a safer bet. For one thing, there are a lot more people with money and arcade machines than there are kids who can afford a PVMeme. Arcade monitors also aren't a fad. Who knows how many of those kids who can't afford a PVM anyway will still want one this time next year. And you can always stick an arcade screen in a box and use it like a TV. I've been doing it for decades. Sure, it might not fit int he corner of your attic room but that's just another reason NEETs aren't the best market to target.

>>5412805
Are they new though? I thought when people opened them up they were all recycled tubes. Some dude on here did it a while ago.

But anyway, while i'd love new high-end CRT's to hit production, we all acknowledge the OP is dreaming.

>>5413153
I'm not really sure you've thought that through.

>>5412795
Analog NT

Not OP, but I saw this thread and the Analogue Nt is also the first thing that popped into my mind. But that thing is always out of stock, which suggests that they manufacture the thing in small quantities. There is a demand but its a very niche product. And also consider how their business model is changing, they're moving from the expensive Analogue Nt mini ($449) to the SNES and Sega consoles which cut back on some hardware features (only two controller ports, no DAC and less outputs) to get the price down. I think they're going to make a much bigger return on the lower priced consoles and that shows that the retro market has a very limited capacity to support $400+ products.

Like the other posters, I imagine that the costs to manufacture a CRT today for a market this small would mean a pretty high cost. But god damn.. it would be really fucking awesome. Having something brand new, with maybe features tailored for the retro gamer. We can dream right?

>>5413607
As for other products. I am a big fan of the HD Retrovision cables. Fuck scart. Getting scart cables to work on US consumer TVs is ridiculous and I've never bothered. The HDRetrovision cables are really high quality and were a big game changer for me personally.

But those guys had to turn to Kickstarter to get their business off the ground. And like Analogue they manufacture their cables in batches and they will sometimes go out stock for months. If you watch their Twitter, they're pretty open about their business. They're just two people and they both have day jobs, the cables don't turn enough of a profit to allow them to make their company to be their full time job.

There's Everdrives, fucking rad devices, in particular the SD2SNES with the fpga stuff in it.

There's the SD SYSTEM 3 for the TurboGrafx/PCEngine.. a very cool device although it has had some audio/video issues.

Another product I have my eye on is the gcompsw (as opposed to the gscartsw, because I'm YPbPr loving guy). It seems like the ultimate solution for switching between multiple consoles. But very much a hobbyist niche product.

Anyways, I feel like right now is an amazing time to be into playing retro games on physical hardware connected to a CRT. There is some neat innovations happening, high quality products being made. But the one area that we really can't seem to do much about are CRTs. What we have now is all we got.

>>5413153
I've wondered about arcade monitors. I apologize in advance, I'm pretty ignorant about this. Is there no one out there still manufacturing these things. What do arcade owners do when there is an issue with the screen in one of their machines? Are arcade monitors comparable in quality to consumer CRTs, PVMs, BVMs, etc.?

>>5413657
>What do arcade owners do when there is an issue with the screen in one of their machines?
i assume they do the same thing they do when one of the sticks or buttons has a problem: ignore it because if you're still running an arcade in 2019 then your real business is money laundering

>>5413772
Arcades were money laundering businesses in the 80s though, nothing about that changed. As to the question, of the few arcades still in survival most replace failing CRTs with arcade-grade 15khz LCDs which look like dogshit with no scanlines but what else are you going to do.

>>5412790
Only if the price of high end monitors continue to rise because of demand. If the money's there the Chinese would be happy to make what you want at the quality you want if there's enough ordered.

>>5413823
The thing is, if someone were to make new monitors with a high price tag (which I guess we are all in agreement would need to be the case to make this feasible) I would hold off until other people, like the super autists, test them out first and report back. The higher the price tag, the more perfect they would have to be to justify the cost.

>>5413287
>But anyway, while i'd love new high-end CRT's to hit production, we all acknowledge the OP is dreaming.
I would pay quite a bit for a new wega quality 15khz tube tv. I think there is a market for it, but the market is small. The R&D costs would be major, and the problem with CRTs is that once you sell one to someone, they will probably never need to buy another in their lifetime. I honestly would pay $800-$1000 for a new 32" set, and know that it would be a fair price.

>>5413904
>I honestly would pay $800-$1000 for a new 32" set
With the right features and if the quality was there, reference level quality, I just might be willing pay this too..

I wonder how huge a 4K crt would be.

Aside from picture quality, what would we want from a CRT made today? Like what are some of the more present day technical features that are available now that could be incorporated in a set made today?

It's interesting that some of the devices mentioned in this thread have firmware updates released periodically that tweak performance. A CRT tailored for retro gaming or at least mindful of retro gaming could have updates that address certain quirks of the audio/video from different systems and allow some level of improvements to be made in handling and properly displaying those signals. Although this is simpler technology so perhaps there would be less need for this with an analog CRT than say a framemeister, less variables, but still.. that would be neat.

The ability to have a large number of different presets for everything you plug into the set and the ability to easily toggle between them. Like a preset carefully calibrated for NES, one for the Genesis, your laserdisc player, etc.

A bunch of different input options, composite, component/YPbPr and sure scart too.

I figure you generally would want to feed your analog TV analog video but for audio, maybe a optical input with a really nice built in DAC.

That's all I got.

>>5413010
>pay ridiculous kinds of money for free shit
They have sub-retard level IQs?

desu trying to keep to obsolete technology is a losing battle. It would be best just to moddify the consoles for digital output and use digital monitors designed for low latancy with the possibility of image filters.

>>5413978
m-o-r-o-n

>>5412790
>we're seeing a boom a high quality boutique retro gaming hardware devices right now
lol what?

>>5412790
>hardware
>games
>TV
Nice garbage dump you spent all that money on, Anon.

>>5414004
>Aside from picture quality, what would we want from a CRT made today?
50 and 60hz and possibly 100 & 120 IF it didn't create latency. Sure it would be displaying 60 fps, but at 120hz would look nice.....I used my GDM-FW900 for a few games that were locked at 60fps like this, and it makes a difference (Dark souls 1280x800 60fps/120hz looks good).


>A bunch of different input options, composite, component/YPbPr and sure scart too.
2-4 (or more) imputs offering Composite, component, svideo and SCART would be great. VGA, DVI & HDMI possibly as well. Outputs for people who want to run motion capture on a PC would be a nice feature as well, though it wouldn't be something I would use. Removing the need for an external switch would be a nice feature.

>>5414028
>lol what?
What are line doublers, upscalers, transcoders, "Classic" video game systems with HDMI and constant re-releases of retro games on contemporary consoles?

>>5414036
line doublers transcoders and upscalers are all just silicon.
Making high quailty crts would be a nightmare seeing as all the infastructure is gone, they can't be sold in much of the world due to the crazy amounts of lead and other dangerous metals and chemicals in them, and the fact that they're large and heavy.
Not to mention high end stuff like wegas cost $1000 back in the day and even then was only possible due to economies of scale.

>>5414041
I'm one of the posters here that would love to see a high end retro gaming CRT, but I completely agree with you. There seem to be some people here being dismissive or expressing disbelieve that there are high quality products being made that carter to this niche. I've named a few. But again, I agree with you. A top of the line clone systems like the ones Analogue makes or the variety of video scalers out there just isn't the same thing as manufacturing a CRT.

For me, I realize its not feasible, I don't see it happening, but its fun to talk about anyways.

>>5414041
>line doublers transcoders and upscalers are all just silicon.
They are part of the "retro" botique hardware devices. If there was not a boom, there wouldn't be things like "OSSC" and retrotink.


>Making high quailty crts would be a nightmare seeing as all the infastructure is gone, they can't be sold in much of the world due to the crazy amounts of lead and other dangerous metals and chemicals in them
The chemicals under the sink in your kitchen are more dangerous than the contents of a CRT. More people die every year from household chemicals than from any of the side effects of a CRT. The most dangerous part of a CRT is improper lifting of even the smaller units causing back pain.

Though I do agree that the infrastructure is gone on a large scale, there are still places that make them. I think the biggest issue is that it would be a small operation for a niche market, and a quality CRT would be the last one a consumer buys. The best I could imagine is that one of these indian/chinese companies that is making CRTs decides to make a model for US consumption and uses every bit of technology to make an outstanding product. Trinitron patents expired years ago, and though I doubt it will ever happen, it is POSSIBLE to remake them. The technology is there, but yes, the market is simply too small to justify the costs. Possible yes, however the probability of something like that happening is slim to none, and I would bet my house that it would never happen.

The best we can do is find quality sets and preserve them as best we can. A good set should last 20-40 years or more with minimal service.

>>5414078
>I don't see it happening, but its fun to talk about anyways.
This is my sentiment. It is no different than asking someone what they would do if they won the lottery. It sure is nice to hear all the great ideas, but the chances of it happening are nearly nonexistent.

>>5413657
>What do arcade owners do when there is an issue with the screen in one of their machines? Are arcade monitors comparable in quality to consumer CRTs, PVMs, BVMs, etc.?
Most arcades contract out for repairs. Some repair guys will hunt down some obscure asian company that still has some arcade monitors in stock and order one, and spend $600+ on it. Some repair guys have a storage unit full of consumer CRTs they've been collecting whenever they pop up, and they modify those to work with most arcade cabs. There's still a few games out there with weird setups that aren't easy to fix with a consumer CRT though.

>>5413772
I kinda assumed that arcades were a thing of the past and then a Round 1 opened in my city. New and really cool machines are still being made.

Honestly I wasn't paying that close attention to what kinda monitors were being used.. I think it was a mix of LCDs & CRTs.. certainly LCDs were more common with the newer games.

Rather then creating brand new CRTs, I wish there was a place you could buy refurbished sets from. Yes, I know that you can get used second hand sets for next to nothing if not completely for free. But when you go out hunting, you never know what you're going to end up with.

Wouldn't it be nice if there was a place you could turn to, staffed by people that really understood this tech and would do a bang up job with tweaking and calibrating the sets to bring them as close as possible to the state they were in when new? And perhaps offer some modification options, similar to how consoles get modded for different things, like RGB output or optical audio output.

Maybe that would be the best we could hope for.

I wonder if anyone would ever do something like, specifically for the old school gaming market.

>>5412790
>how long before one of these comfortlords starts producing a new, high end retro gaming CRT?

Top Fucking KEK. I wish, but it will never happen.

New retro equipment today is made using in-production parts and manufacturing processes. Unless a rich individual gets involved to just create new CRTs for the love of it,its not gonna happen.

Those who still use CRTs are too busy grabbing up professional-grade BVMs and PVMs to care anyway.

>>5414085
>The chemicals under the sink in your kitchen are more dangerous than the contents of a CRT. More people die every year from household chemicals than from any of the side effects of a CRT. The most dangerous part of a CRT is improper lifting of even the smaller units causing back pain.
this doesn't change the fact that they can't be sold in much of the world due to the high amounts of lead in them.

Sure the technology is there, but the market is as small if not smaller than the broadcasting industry in 2000, so you better be expecting prices exceeding $10000 for something like a 20F1U.

>>5412790
Isn't it illegal in most first world countries to produce CRTs?

>>5414230
yep. That's what dealt the death blow to CRTs in the early 2000s, the EU banning the production of them.

>>5414229
>this doesn't change the fact that they can't be sold in much of the world due to the high amounts of lead in them.
They are illegal to dispose of, and must be recycled. There is more lead in a car battery than a CRT, but yet they sell them at every automotive store. Do you really think they are "illegal to sell" because of the metals in them? The real reason they don't want them being sold is because they are power hogs, and can consume 10 times the amount of power of a similar LCD. Do you know what would happen to our power grid IF half of the LCD tvs in the USA were still CRTs? The environmentalist faggots would be crying about how we are killing hippos in Botswana because we are burning fossil fuels. Meanwhile these same hipster nu-males are plugging their electric car into the same power grid, and acting like their shit doesn't stink.

There is certainly an environmental reason for moving to LCDs, but it has nothing to do with the metals that compromise their makeup.

>>5414241
alright, let's assume they can be sold.
How many of these hipster nu-male baristas can afford $10,000 crts?

>>5414230
>Isn't it illegal in most first world countries to produce CRTs?
>>5414235
>yep. That's what dealt the death blow to CRTs in the early 2000s, the EU banning the production of them.

Damn I had no idea. Where I can read more about this?

I guess that makes this entire thread even more pointless.

>>5414258
>How many of these hipster nu-male baristas can afford $10,000 crts?
A brand new 32" Wega CRT in 2001-2004 costs approximately $800. I don't know where you are pulling the $10k price point from, but you can shove it right back to the place where you got it from. Between cost saving technology advancements and cost increasing inflation, I can't see the cost of a similar sized/quality CRT being much different now than in 2004.

>>5412949
Suppose I bought one of those LG OLEDs, will it theoretically look as good as CRT? You're talking through emulation through. There's no point in running a snes through a framemeister to a 55" OLED is there?

>>5414278
It cost $800 via MASS PRODUCTION FACILITY PRODUCING THOUSANDS OF THEM
if someone made (1) CRT you can bet it would be expseive as fuck

I'm not finding any information on there being a ban on *producing* CRTs. There appears to be some legislation that affects how you dispose of them.

I think I've been had.

>>5413657
There's no one making arcade CRTs and for some types this has been the case for a long time. They can be repaired in some cases and in others NOS is possible to find. They're generally very high quality but are pretty bare bones, without all the menus, connectors, etc. They also don't come in 8" or 14" sizes.

>>5414004
The most important thing I'd want is it to be made by someone who can clearly distinguish between a CRT and a TV. A menu to adjust the sky color to the correct shade of purple isn't a CRT. Then I'd want at least trisync, more if it's expensive. Weight and size don't matter much to me but would have to be a priority for retail. I don't care about any of the consumer oriented bells and whistles and would want these to be an optional extra or separate product. I don't want to pay an extra $500 for some unnecessary components and a fancy case.

>>5414118
Yes, many problems can be fixed. There are millions of old TVs stuffed away in warehouses. You won't hear much about this until hipsters drive the BIN of 13" composite only k-mart sets up to $1k

>>5414278
https://www.tested.com/tech/gaming/456719-best-crt-retro-games/

>the Sony BVM-20F1U, a 20-inch broadcast production monitor ... cost about $10,000 when it was introduced in the late 1990s.

>>5414258
>How many of these hipster nu-male baristas can afford $10,000 crts?
I think its safe to assume: no one.

But something more reasonably price.. you might be surprised. There are those crazy guys that collect Neo Geo carts.

>>5414296
no. It won't render half pixels correctly nor will it have scan lines.

>>5414326
>Discussion about consumer grade CRTs
>Can't stop talking about production monitors
Pic related.

>>5414304
>PRODUCING THOUSANDS OF THEM
More like millions, buddy.

>>5414351
why would people buy new consumer grade crts when you could get a production monitor for the same price?

In order for a new high quality CRT to be produced, and to be at a price that's affordable, they would have to sell tens of millions of them.

That would never happen, so good CRTs will never return.

>>5414397
Because it would be new? And it might benefit from some advances in technology that are available now.

One of my take aways from this discussion is that if say someone were to produce new CRTs, given the small market they would either be exorbitantly expensive or corners would have to be cut, it would be compromised and not necessarily high quality (such as the units still being produced in like China or India?)

they will never make CRTs ever again, period, end of sentence
what they will do in a few more years is slap a LCD inside a big empty plastic box and call it, "Retro Gaming TV RGB !!!!" And it'll include the same shaders that are already available and most likely won't even be optimised for input lag.
screencap this

From -
http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/ossc.html

>Up to today Micomsoft sold about 8,000 Framemeister units

This review is from three years ago, so the number would be higher now. That's a respectable number but kind of puts into perspective how niche stuff like this is in terms of demand.

>>5414550
Sad but probably 100% true.

Someone will make a fortune off a shitty small LCD in a massive hunk of plastic.

>>5414229
>this doesn't change the fact that they can't be sold in much of the world due to the high amounts of lead in them.
Wait, how come the lead wasn't an issue for 60 years?

>>5414550
>they will never make CRTs ever again, period, end of sentence

Ok but you have to provide a scientific reason for this asserion.

>>5414550
This is the guy who in 1938 would have said Hitler could never be beaten, it was hopeless.

>>5414414
>Because it would be new? And it might benefit from some advances in technology that are available now.

For example, the vinyl revival has seem some improvements in pressing technology. In the 70s about 40% of discs came out defective but nowadays they can get the defect rate down to 10%. Because vinyl pressing technology was essentially frozen in time when the market collapsed in the late 80s and hadn't been improved on since.

>>5414671
changing environmental standards?
same reason why people are banning plastic straws now?
>>5414672
no market for it. Super high end crts are still available for a fraction of what they cost new. Once those are all dead maybe there would be demand for new crts but i think 8k oled stuff will be able to emulate scanlines accurately enough that it won't matter.

>>5414235
Just as I suspected. It's not a market issue, it's a government regulation one. Well, now that Britain is out of the EU...

>>5414684
>scanline meme
I almost took you seriously for a moment there.

>>5414691
you think people that would be spending shit tons of money on crts wouldn't have also fallen for the scanline meme?

>>5414004
>The ability to have a large number of different presets for everything you plug into the set and the ability to easily toggle between them. Like a preset carefully calibrated for NES, one for the Genesis, your laserdisc player, etc.
People didn't need this autism in 1991 and they don't need it now.

There are a lot of reasons why flat panels/HD displays are deficient for retro gaming but scanlines are a quite minor part of it.

>>5414085
>Though I do agree that the infrastructure is gone on a large scale
There's probably CRT manufacturing equipment gathering dust in a factory somewhere waiting to be rediscovered just like with vinyl presses.

>>5414708
normies don't care about crts, though. They're just massive, heavy, blurry tvs to them.
they do care about LPs since they're cool looking. Most young people that buy LPs don't even have record players.

>>5414550
>they will never make CRTs ever again
They still make them in a few countries.

>>5414730
Shitty ones which won't satisfy PVM autists.

>>5414684
>changing environmental standards?
Ever see the battery in a gas-electric hybrid car? There is nothing environmentally sound about the destruction that this battery caused just to be created, but then to be jammed into a machine that burns gasoline and leaks motor oil.......Think about that. Every electric vehicle gets 70% of its power from fossil fuel.

The amount of lead in a CRT is measured in pounds. It is in the glass, and some of the electronics. Leaded glass is also still made and distributed, and so long as you aren't storing fluids in it long term there is no issue with using it as a drinking vessel.

>>5414713
>they do care about LPs since they're cool looking.

Normies don't care about LPs.

>>5414741
Glad you agree.

>>5414747
LPs sell better than digital music at this point. Audiophiles don't care about them cause they will never sound as good as a CD.
At my university nearly everyone I know owns at least on LP and the vast majority don't have record players. Those that do have crappy chink stuff that ruins the record if you use it.
If you want high quality audio you're better off with VHS hifi.

I'm not saying the changing environmental standards are for the better, just stating why its happening.

>>5413772
>if you're still running an arcade in 2019 then your real business is money laundering
Selling booze to 30/40 somethings you mean.

>>5414810
This guys has a point. There's been a bunch of bar arcades in my area that have opened in the past few years. It seems to be a thing, I guess related to the raise in nerd/geek culture (cosplay, comics-cons, MCU movies, etc.)

>>5414351
>what are economies of scale
>h-h-hey guys the largest consumer electronics company in the world made $800 crts 20 years ago by the billions
>surely some fat,bearded youtubers can do the same

navigating the patents and sourcing old parts is enough of a nightmare.

>>5415058
Patents only last 15 years though.

>>5413153
>Exactly what "high quality boutique retro gaming hardware devices" are "we" seeing?
raspberry pi

>>5413645
>The HDRetrovision cables are really high quality and were a big game changer for me personally
t. alt-right nazi sympathizer

>>5415058
>patents
>>5415062
>Patents only last 15 years though.
Trinitron patents are expired.

>>5415068
I know that. They expired in the 90s which was why Trinitron clones started appearing at that time.

>>5414730
no, they don't
people keep saying that but it's not true

>>5415065
>alt-right nazi sympathizer
I will be ordering some HD Retrovision cables. They have a series of cables for Component output on a Playstation. Hopefully it comes with a can of zyklon to use as a flea killer for the feral cats in the neighborhood. Don't worry about the cats. Zyklon can't kill mammals unless the wooden door on the chamber is sealed really tight.

>>5415068
fair enough. I just assume every company operating in the US is sitting on 100 year old patents "just in case". I would love to see it, but my bet is still on a low latency, high resolution, oled, 4:3 display. make it easy to use 240p and 480p for the ps2/xbox retro crowd that is coming up. you can pack all modern hardware in it and still easily hit the "boutique" price point. hell, put all the video processing stuff on an FPGA that can be reflashed with the ability to switch profiles. we can debate which NES pallet is correct or the total input latency for the pc engine to absurdity. i can see that being in the $500-1000 range easily

>>5415125
additionally, flexible displays are becoming more common. you could even make a curved display and produce corrected geometry in the display hardware.

>>5415125
>I would love to see it, but my bet is still on a low latency, high resolution, oled, 4:3 display.
This is all I want as well. I know that LCDs are nothing but a stop gap, and are great for watching movies & tv....but for gaming they border on worthless due to the inherent latency....which only increases when you are inputting a non-native or goofy resolution. 15khz "240p" is not a standard at all, and this is where part of the issue is. Modern digital TVs can have issues trying to display this sort of signal. The thing I really like about CRT tvs and monitors is their ability to handle multiple resolutions with ease. An LCD has a "native" resolution, whereas the CRT has a certain range of signals it can handle flawlessly. Like I said earlier, it is fun to debate CRTs making some glorious comeback as a limited product, but I know as well as others it won't happen. It COULD. The technology exists, but consumer appeal does not. People equate higher resolution to better, and the "bigger is better" crowd is most of the population. These users don't notice or care that their Xbox One or Playstation 4 isn't really outputting 4k, but they want a 4k tv because that is what their imaginary friend on the internet has.

>>5414730
That's only because China has no environmental regulations and their domestic market is huge enough that CRT TVs could be profitable.

>>5415179
>environmental regulations
The ONLY environmental issue with CRTs is when they are not recycled after their life is over. Nothing in them has ever killed anyone. The glass is leaded, no different than fancy glassware that is given to a newly married couple that has their initials engraved into them. They are safe to drink from, but long term storage of fluids can cause the lead to leech out. I can't think of one time I tried to use a CRT tube as a flask. On the other side of things, a gasoline powered car actively creates pollution, and unless you drain all of the cancer causing and seal killing fluids out of it, eventually they will leak. The only thing that leaks out of a CRT is the occasional capacitor. They are full of valuable metals. There are a whole lot of LCD panels right now that use lead, copper and similar components to the CRT, and by weight I would think that the composition is somewhat similar. The push to move away from CRTs has more to do with power consumption than material composition.

>>5415192
>The push to move away from CRTs has more to do with power consumption
This is actually false too because CRTs only use a large amount of power when you initially turn them on. When the display is running, it doesn't use any more power than a flat panel.

>>5415202
CRTs do use a lot more than a flat panel running too. ~21" CRT takes roughly 100-150W running, equivalent area ~24" LED backlit LCD takes ~30-50W.

>>5415202
>When the display is running, it doesn't use any more power than a flat panel.

>>5415232
Most of the power used by a CRT is when you turn it on and the flyback and tube are started up. This causes a momentary power surge, but once they've reached stable mainstage operation they don't use much more current than a flat panel.

>>5415202
>>The push to move away from CRTs has more to do with power consumption
Are you retarded? They use a very substantial amount more power. There are plenty of legitimate advantages to modern flat panels. I wish you retards wouldn't pretend that CRT's are just BETTER IN EVERY POSSIBLE WAY. It's old tech. It has plenty of disadvantages and some advantages.

>>5415242
one advantage was that PC CRTs handled different resolutions better

>>5415242
>>5415250
crt advantages:
no native resolution
perfect blacks
0 input lag
handles 240p correctly

lcd advantages
very light
very thin
draws little power
easy to get lcds larger than 34"
easy to get very high resolution lcds
perfect geometry and convergence since fixed pixel
far lower chance of catastrophic failure
safer to repair

>>5415242
>Are you retarded?
No, I am fully well aware that CRTs use considerably more power than an LCD powered by led lighting. I am fully well aware of the downfalls of the CRT, including the Size and considerable power use. I know that they are "not better in every possible way" as you put it. However, for someone like me who doesn't own a single HD video source (does the wii count?), a CRT is superior for the systems I need a display for. I am more than happy with the tradeoffs. There are pros and cons to every display technology, but it is irrefutable that a CRT handles 240p better than an LCD. Are you retarded? Why would I want an LCD if it won't correctly display the source media I give it? Why would I want to put up with shitty upscaling, latency and improper aspect ratios?

>>5415352
it's current year and you don't have a *single* hd video source???
terrestrial broadcast tv has been hd for 10 years now.
How are you still living in the early 2000s?
even DVD has a higher than standard definition resolution...

>>5415368
>it's current year and you don't have a *single* hd video source???
Aside from my computer having HDMI output, no I don't. Everything I own outputs standard def.

I don't have cable or any sort of "terrestrial broadcast TV". Standard DVDs output 480i, which is standard def. My radio works just fine, and I guarantee if shit is hitting the fan, I will find out by tuning into one of the local stations.


>How are you still living in the early 2000s?
Its really simple. I spend most of my time outdoors except in the winter. I hunt and fish, and don't drink or drug. I never saw the need to "upgrade" to digital anything. The only reason I even have an LCD for a computer monitor is because my GDM-Fw900 died a few months ago. The Flyback transformer shit the bed, and I have only started looking for a replacement. It lasted me nearly 20 years, and it was turned on most of that time.

Why the hell would I upgrade to an LCD if everything I own would not take advantage of its "features", and in some cases would suffer detriment from its use?

>>5412790
It should be possible by using 3d printing technology to help make the shadow mask and printer technology to stick the colour phospher onto the glass. Melting glass should be possible with either a furniss or the help of windscreen manufacturing. Issue is that its too risking to invest in getting the eqipment to make this at the moment. People will complain about the cost of an sd2snes but a remade crt could cost $2000. I wonder if a clear plastic film could be put over the top of an lcd with a certain pattern to mimick a crt.

A monochrome CRT could be made in your garage. A colour one not so much.

>>5415549
Put a clear plastic sheet over the crt, print r,g,b dots onto it. Now each group of 3 dots is a pixel so you need to create a circuit to divide signal to each section of the sheet.

Shadow masks are a piece of sheet metal though, not plastic.

One thing that does concern me is safety because a lot of Soviet TVs were known to explode due to poorly made CRTs. So if you wanted to make a picture tube in your garage, you may be doing so at your own risk.

>>5415064
kek

Not to dump on the crtness of this thread but how many of you would be interested in a lcd whose native resolution is 480?

>>5415809
There used to be 4:3 LCDs but that was in like pre-2007.

>>5415809
>>5415814
confirmed, have an old 800x600 LCD that I now use for my home server

I think they still make some for CNC equipment but consumer 4:3 LCDs haven't been a thing in quite some time.

>>5415136
interdasting...

>>5414332
so there's no spiritual successor to CRT? Plasma tvs i guess?

>>5415542
>It should be possible by using 3d printing technology to help make the shadow mask and printer technology to stick the colour phospher onto the glass
I hate this "3d printing is da fucken Jesus" meme.

There's no way you'd make a workable shadow mask with a fucking 3d printer. It just ain't happening. They'd be produced using chemical machining, they way they've been made cheaply, simply and many orders of magnitude more accurately than your reprap meme machines.

>>5414609
>una-bomber 2.0 is visiting /vr/

>>5415542
This is probably one of the stupidest posts I've seen here in a long time. It's like you're you're one of those children from a few summers back, that were incessantly shiposting about how 3D printing was the solution for everything, who was plucked up and transported into the future. There's no other explanation for this level of retardation in 2019.

>>5415809
That would be useless. How could you play a game with a display that was just one line?

>>5416205
Most shadowmasks made today, by the companies that are totally not making them because the last CRT factory shut down long ago, and then another last one shut down and another, use laser cutters. Devices capable of cutting a shadow mask are now affordable enough for hobbyists.

>>5413645
>I am a big fan of the HD Retrovision cables.
Yikes. I hope you know those cables cost less than 10 bucks in parts. Very jewish business practices with how they upsell you if you own a model 1 Genesis. I'm surprised that there aren't any china knockoffs available yet, I've been waiting.

>>5415585
Forgot to mention they used a machine that could spray thousands of tiny phosphor dots on the face of the tube.

>>5415861
>>5415814
can't believe they're considered rare or unheard of
I had two until recently and I miss them because widescreen genuinely sucks

>>5415346
>0 input lag
wrong
>perfect blacks
wrong

>>5417410
they have assloads of input lag

>>5417416
4:3 LCDs don't have any upscaling though, they don't do HD resolution.

>>5417420
they have that at native resolution. They're way before lcds actually became not terrible for latency.

>>5417416
correct, but I don't miss them for games
>>5417420
they were 1024 x 768, not sure if that qualifies as HD

>>5416890
not laser cutters, photolithography.

>>5417420
Almost all LCDs have some kind of scaler, even 4:3 ones.

>>5415814

>>5417547
Like those, yes. You don't have upscaling issues, however these are all 15 years old and use really outdated, shitty panel tech.

>>5412790
What we need is a successor to the CRT.
A new non-fixed pixel display technology.

>>5413645
>I am a big fan of the HD Retrovision cables. Fuck scart.
Stop shilling here and get back to making those Dreamcast Cables Ste.

>>5414230
>Isn't it illegal in most first world countries to produce CRTs?
No

>>5414756
>Audiophiles don't care about them cause they will never sound as good as a CD.
This is actually retarded.
CD's aren't any better than Vinyl.

That said Vinyl is the MP3 of Analog Music formats
Music originally recorded at DSD High Sample Rate > Analog Master Tape => Analog recordings converted to DSD High Sample Rate > Reel-to-Reel Tapes > CD/PCM = Vinyl > anything else

>>5417636
We have OLED's now dude.

>>5415170
>I know that LCDs are nothing but a stop gap, and are great for watching movies & tv....but for gaming they border on worthless due to the inherent latency
LCD's as a technology don't really have inherent lag. It's just the electronics they use in commercial LCD TVs/Monitors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFh9gMyi0yg

>>5417683
Computer monitors don't really have input lag, it's entirely a TV issue.

>>5417414
>wrong
Get out resetera tranny.

>>5417672
>OLED's
>Non-Fixed Pixel
What is reading comprehension?

>>5417684
They do have lag. It's very small lag though like 5 to 6ms.

>>5417410
All the monitors at my shitty retail job are still 4:3 LCDs that they've probably been using for over a decade. It'd be fun to take one for Dreamcast VGA.

>>5417414
>im old old enough to be here
wrong

>>5417636
Laser projectors. You could relatively easily make a laser projector that operates in an arbitrary "resolution" way.

>>5417658
vinyl is an experience, but I'm sure you wouldn't know anything about that

>>5418259
Most "laser projectors" today are just a fixed pixel LCD/DLP/LCoS projector with blue laser + spinning yellow phosphor wheel replacing the traditional light bulb.

Using an actual beam scanning lines like a CRT is theoretically possible but pretty terrible in practice, the mechanics of how fast you can spin the mirrors severely limits how much resolution you can get. Best recent development like that are Prysm's "Laser Phosphor Displays" could only do 320x240 per projector module, each one using 12 sets of lasers, so only a resolution of 320x20p per laser.

>>5417410
>widescreen sucks
Lmao. This shit is funny.

>>5413904
>I honestly would pay $800-$1000 for a new 32" set
Yeah, that's totally what a top-end, highly quality controlled, out-of-production specialty device, built with out-of-production components, and without the myriad cost reductions of proper mass production would cost. $800 to $1000. The same as a modern television.

>>5417537
>>5416890

Exactly. I work with laser cut material every day and just thinking of the recast gives me a migraine. Not to mention each mask would take hours to cut and the accuracy would be terrible.

Previous job was as a photolithographer and this is really is the only process capable of making things like shadow masks reliably and economically. Don't believe me? Pic up one of those Metal Earth model kits some time and check the detail and edge finish achievable, it's truly astounding and this is at the coarse end of the scale. Remember the multi-billion transistor CPU and GPU in whatever you're using right now? It ain't laser cut.

>>5413010
>collectors
>materialistic

>>5418410
I don't understand why the Laser Phosphor Display is so shit. You need 240p which is 14400 deflections per second. According to wikipedia Galvanometer scanners can do up to 60000.
For horizontal it's a continuous sweep with the output power driven by an analogue signal.
It seems like a no-brainer.

>>5416174
field emission displays. Unironically where a better technology than LCD, plasma and OLED but never gained traction. But I doubt whether even they could display half pixels properly.
Most of the reason crts act so strangely compared to modern displays is because they weren't fixed pixel.

>>5415457
well for one terrestrial broadcast TV is free, and DVDs output 480p not 480i.
I mean there's no reason to upgrade but for watching films and such you'd have a more enjoyable experience on an lcd I think.

>>5417414
Nah. We talked about this. Crts let input voltages from any signal directly drive the electron guns. They go through less than 10 transistors for demodulation and amplification before getting to the screen.
On an LCD a 480i or 240p signal will go through a 3d deinterlacer, adding a frame of input lag. It then goes through millions of transistors to handle upscaling. Then the bitstream is pushed to the screen, and each subpixel will then take another frame to update.
Sure looks to me like CRTs have no input lag. No more than the input lag difference between a 1 foot and 2 foot vga cable.
And yeah, CRTs are emissive displays so they do have perfect blacks(Albeit the grey surface means you can only really make use of it in a dark room. When a CRT shows black the guns aren't firing. When an LCD shows black the backlight bleeds through the polarizing filters and LCD.

>>5418801
>DVDs output 480p not 480i.
Dvd players like the one I have sitting on a shelf, unused has both kinds of connections....Composite and S-video. Neither of which outputs 480p. I was never aware of the 480p potential of DVDs, so thanks for that! Never having a 480p television means I missed out on watching one of my 4 dvds with more "definition".

>>5418801
>for watching films and such you'd have a more enjoyable experience on an lcd I think.
With me having a collection of DVDs that I can count on one hand, I doubt it would be worth the investment. The last time I watched a DVD was 2009-2010 when I sat through the bore that was Star Trek. I just am not a user of contemporary media. There really is nothing on the "Terrestrial Broadcast" that is worth buying a pair of rabbit ears for, let alone trying to figure out how to plug them into my S-video tv. It honestly is not worth it to me. I understand that I am not the "norm" when it comes to media. I don't buy the hype, and I certainly won't pay money to watch garbage sitcoms and bad news. I cut my cable during the "Jerry Sandusky" trial, only because what they said live and unfiltered was so graphic and terrible. Yes, that man is 100% evil. I don't need a minute by minute recap of exactly how he defiled all of them boys. Everything that I read only suggests to me that the news & television is worse now than it was then. I am not exerting effort to have degeneracy piped directly into my house. I would rather read a book, or even play Mario Kart 64.

>>5419045
Everything is available online, too. Cable TV is dead to me, as is mainstream media.

>>5412790
In a few years, VR technology will be advanced enough that you can just recreate a CRT virtually.

>>5418801
nope, all dvds are interlaced
any dvd player that does 480p is just de-interlacing

>>5417537
No, laser cutters. But please, carry on the summers honored nu-/v/ tradition of posting about what you don't know about.

>>5417636
Fixed pixels are probably the least important problems and at todays resolutions largely irrelevant.

>>5418610
>Don't believe me?
No. I don't. I believe the people who actually make them. But your story is cool and your lack of knowledge on the subject extremely entertaining.

I feel like we're just going to see per system scaling solutions that output HDMI. While I enjoy CRTs sometimes its just nice to play a game on a nice big flatscreen with a wireless controller.

>>5419350
I don't know, I finally got a CRT set up (two, actually, one is a super tight looking 50hz and the other is in need of some work but it's 60hz) and I only use my 1080p for watching movies for the cinema-like experience.

I think if I had a 4k HDR panel I'd use it more, but my 90s Sanyo CRT has incredible colors and is super bright compared to my LCD, so it's my go-to for most content.

>>5419709
Yeah. I still think that the per console thing is going to be the future. I don't think the market that would buy a new CRT is the same as the one that already has one, or is currently looking for one. Like the Analogue NT or whatever, most people just used it for the HDMI output and all the analogue stuff was left somewhat wasted.
I'm basically saying that those who want a CRT already have one and the ones that don't aren't going to get one because of it's superior quality.

>>5418735
LPD tiles are running up to 360Hz vertical at that resolution so ~7.2kHz assuming there's no overlap between beams so it's not super slow in terms of what a galvanometer can do. More facets on the mirror or smaller deflection on a galvo would be able to do higher horizontal speeds, at the cost of a narrower deflection angle though, and likely more complex optics.

>>5419342
cite your source, bitch.

itt /vr/ invents new hybrid display technology

>>5418610
Color CRTs with shadow masks first appeared commercially in 1954 before modern photolithography existed. I wonder what they used back then?

>>5419861
>desperately googles for source to back up his story
>finds one in a book from 1992
>cites it as evidence of how shadow masks are made in 2019
>exposes himself as an ignorant fool
So it's going to be another one of those threads, is it? The kind where some dumb kid makes a claim and is driven by autism to embarrass himself trying to prove it instead of learning from his mistake. Awesome. I love this game. Let the spergfest begin. I just hope some other anon doesn't ruin the fun by posting an easy to find source before you have a chance to give me a few more days of chuckles.

>>5420085
I doubt the actual techniques have changed that much since CRT technology pretty much stopped evolving in the 2000s.

>actually thinking someone will go through the effort of manufacturing CRTs for the 10 or so people who would buy them
Hilarious

>>5420060
Depends what you mean by "modern".

The process had been around for 130 years by then, and more than capable of producing the resolution required for a standard definition shadow mask.

Lasers on the other hand were not to be built for a further 6 years, longer for ones with the power to cut metal.

>>5420146
Why do you think it's that small of a number?

>>5420089
A little research could clear up any doubt. Also, changing how a part is made doesn't change the "technology" of the device it's used in.

>>5414684
>people are banning plastic straws
Unless something has changed since I was last informed about this, plastic straws aren't banned. What happened was restaurants can't give out plastic straws IF they aren't specifically asked for. If a customer asks for a straw, they'll still get a straw.

>>5420402
Pretty sure using a plastic straw is a capital offense in every sate on the left coast

>>5420893
I've done some quick searching and it seems some specific cities actually do have full bans, but it's not statewide anywhere yet. I actually do think we should stop dumping non-biodegradeable plastic in the ocean, but that means we should make biodegradeable straws more than anything else. The fact that you can theoretically get a heftier fine for using a straw than for knowingly spreading AIDS is disgusting though.

>>5420329
Link your source.

>>5420060
It was relatively crude photolithography. There was a bit of a patent slapfight about it when Philco claimed to have invented it first when they were using gelatin based photoresist which really wasn't working well. https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/1458880/radio-corporation-of-america-v-philco-corporation/

>>5415064
he said high quality not educational toy

>>5421135
I've used paper straws. They're shit. I'm all for reducing waste, especially stuff that's not biodegradable. But when you hand me a drink in a plastic bag with a plastic lid you're not saving the planet, just being a virtue signaling douche.

>>5414708
>There's probably CRT manufacturing equipment gathering dust in a factory somewhere waiting to be rediscovered just like with vinyl presses.
I would guarantee it.

>>5412790
>we're seeing a boom a high quality boutique retro gaming hardware devices right now. how long before one of these comfortlords starts producing a new, high end retro gaming CRT?
Never. The entire production pipeline is gone and illegal to operate in much of the developed world thanks to environmental regulations.

>>5422914
>The entire production pipeline is gone
Chances are all the manufacturing equipment for CRTs is still in an abandoned factory like happened with vinyl presses and will be rediscovered at some point.

>>5423085
From what I understand, most CRT factories were shut down _really_ fast in the mid-2000s. There was a photo of a closed plant showing piles of abandoned PC monitors in various states of completion, like they just left all of them there.

>>5418808
>No more than the input lag difference between a 1 foot and 2 foot vga cable.
Wrong. Using big words won't make you seem like you know what you're talking about. CRTs have more than 8ms of input lag, deal with it.

>>5421960
In due course. I want to give the professional laser cutter, 90's book quoter, etc time to embarrass themselves more.

>>5422914
We would have never landed on the Moon if we had this guy's attitude.

>>5422914
>>5422914
We would have never landed on the Moon if we had this guy's "it can't be done" attitude.

I don't see the appeal. In the rare event I play on a CRT it's going to be a shite $5 monitor from the Goodwill because that's what I had as a kid. I didn't have a PVM worth 4+ digits and there's an extremely high chance that everyone else here didn't either. I can't fathom any significant market paying for premium antiquated technology when it doesn't do anything that can't be achieved far cheaper with a select few exceptions that only the most devoted and grognardy would appreciate.

>>5423463
Strictly speaking, the only thing you absolutely need a CRT for is light guns, otherwise a Framemeister will deal with lag issues.

>>5423472
aimtrak (or similar) is incredible and then you can play on a 65 inch screen at 4k resolution.. it's much better than using a CRT lightgun and has the same level of accuracy after calibration, probably even more accurate being a higher resolution

If you did black frame insertion, it could in theory solve the problem of being able to use the NES Zapper.

>>5423487
Some light guns however (arcade games?) work by detecting the electron beam as it's racing down the screen.

>>5423305
Kek.

So childish.

>>5423472
>>5423476
Wrong

>>5423487
NES Zapper is reasonably easy to deal with since it's not trying to do CRT beam timing like later light guns, it's just watching for a bright flash from the white square. There are modified ROMs to compensate for display lag in when it expects to see the flash.

>>5423117
No they don't.
That's just flat out wrong. A crt draws the image as it's recieving data for that part of the image. Just cause it takes a frame 16ms to be sent to the crt doesn't mean you can say "oh it averages 8ms".
It literally can't be any lower because then it'd be drawing the image using data it hasn't recieved yet. So yes, crts have 0ms of input lag.

>>5423489
The Sega master system and ps2 and pc light guns all do. You can tell because the screen doesnt flash.

>>5423886
A CRT doesn't have lag because it's analog electronics that don't perform any sort of data processing. HDTVs have an entire computer system that runs on a Linux-derivative OS.

>>5423463
>In the rare event I play on a CRT it's going to be a shite $5 monitor from the Goodwill because that's what I had as a kid
not everyone wants to play on a CRT because of nostalgia for their childhood in poverty. some of us just like the way it looks.

>>5413287
>>5412805
Some people say they do, others say it's NOS tubes. I guess this is a mystery that will likely never be solved.

>servicing my pvm
>screwdriver falls
>bounces
>dings the fucking screen
>it now has a very small but noticeable dent

it's not even that much of a problem but fuck, man.

i just want to play battle garegga on my saturn...

>>5425954
peanut butter will get that bad boy right out

>>5425965
how is peanut butter going to remove a dent from glass lmfao

if anything i'm considering using some of that windshield epoxy people use when their car gets dents on th, well, windshield

>>5424020
>>5423886
The slow analog "drawing" of a CRT takes more than 8ms, lag between when the player presses a button and sees the result.
>It literally can't be any lower
Not for this old display technology, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have input lag either

>>5425986
The CRT is drawing the instant the signal is coming in, there's no inherent lag, if the game uses no vsync and polls the controller multiple times per frame can be well under 1ms from button press to something appears on screen.

>>5414676
SHOULD NOT, Anon, not COULD not...

Well I dusted off the SNES and played a little bit of SMW on my Bravia and honestly, the thing looks fine and handles standard def more than good enough to satisfy most people who aren't raging PVM autists.

>>5425968
>>5425954
>dent
>glass

what do you mean

>>5426790
a chip. like the ones you get in your car. I cant be arsed to take a picture right now but this is basically it, only smaller and doesn't go all the way through

>>5425968
only a true n00b would doubt the peanut butter technique

>>5417636
Realistically speaking how expensive would it be to just manufacture new quality CRTs again?

>>5414114
The traditional arcade is definitely a thing of the past, nowadays they can only thrive in real actual commerce centers or tourist traps. Most of them usually use a different payment model like entrance admission or are hybrids like Dave and Buster's.

>>5426865
Shit CRTs like you had in a 90s Korean TV aren't a problem. The kind of CRTs people really want like a 2005 Wega? Fucking impossible. Too expensive.

>>5426015
No, you are wrong, there's no CRT which has under 8ms of lag between input and display.

>>5413645
I like the HD Retrovision cables but I seriously hated that I basically needed to pay out the ass just to get component for my Genesis because they're literally the only ones that even make that shit and won't share how they make it.

>>5426935
It's pretty simple anon. They take RGB from the console and run it through a transcoder to get YPbPr.

You could do the same with a SCART cable and a transcoder box. Not as neat but functionally identical.

>>5414118
I'm surprised there isn't a place that does exactly this. There are entire businesses built around refurbishing old jukeboxes, old automobiles, and entire old buildings, how and why is there none for old TV's?

>>5416904
>accuses others of acting "Jewish"
>waiting for chinkshit knockoff because he refuses to pay for the real thing
Oy vey.

>>5416904
>>5426935
Retro Gaming Cables are making their own YPbPr cables so HD Retrovision finally have some competition
https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/Component-YPbPr-240p

>>5427274
>powered by retrotink to component
slick
>that housing (or lack thereof in this case)
oh come on, I'd gladly spring another $2 if it meant it's all properly covered up

>>5427294
Yeah, that looks incredibly shoddy. Even the base RetroTink itself comes with a casing.

>>5426918
Bullshit.

>>5427294
that's a prototype, they'll have a case on it.

>>5427274
>finally
>tfw i was using RGB->component 20 years ago

>>5412790
does it matter

nothing competes in terms of comfyness as vintage Sony trinitrons and maybe a few other models and brands like some zeniths and Mitsubishis

>>5414004
i want the styling of 80's era sony

>>5427386
CRTs have lag, deal with it. The Panasonic TX-29E40D/M for example has 25ms of lag, far more than most LCDs or OLEDs.

>>5414550
this but i bet it will at least be oled

>>5423463
yeah but a decent amount of people played on trinitrons from cheap to high end

and a lot of people probably did play on medium to high end consumer sets.

So its not like everyone played on some based model Magnavox or rca

>>5427819
>TX-29E40D/M
Citation needed

>>5414684
>Once those are all dead maybe there would be demand for new crts
You could well be right. There are a lot of applications including TV broadcasting which need CRTs but when they can't get working ones anymore (that is to say they ran out of 2000s PVMs in decent working condition) then maybe the demand will be raised for new ones.

Arcades and tourney fighting also need CRTs, the latter has actually died out simply because it's impossible to have fighting game competitions using flat panels, they're not responsive enough.

>>5427064
CRT rebuilding was done in the vacuum tube era, it mostly died out by the 1970s as picture tubes got cheaper and more reliable.

>>5428105
I know how CRT fags are, you'd just claim the data is falsified.

>>5428120
>it's impossible to have fighting game competitions using flat panels, they're not responsive enough.
This isn't true anymore. Since the lag on LCDs has been decreased in the last decade, and considering the image clarity and color is better, they're more portable, and using capture cards is easier thanks to HDMI, competitions use flat screens.

>>5428126
A TX-29E40D/M is an SD CRT without any fancy processing, it literally can't cause 25ms lag, there's nowhere for it to be stored.

>>5428227
It is 100hz though. That's where the lag comes from as it needs to process an entire frame in arrears to perform its interpolation trickery.

>>5428258
Ah, so not normal SD.

>>5412790
Don't CRTs require entire factories that are no longer around for parts?

>>5429504
The actual components aren't anything hard to make/source, it's more the amount of labor required.

>>5429510
highly skilled labor at that. finding enough people and training them in this arcane technology that they most likely won't use anywhere else in their careers would not be easy. especially since the kinds of technically minded people who could do it could make much more money just repairing cell phones and laptops.

>>5414550
OLED televisions will have shaders built in to them and they'll look amazing and all the normalfags will just use that and I won't blame them either because there is just about no downside.

>>5428227
>i want to be taken seriously so badly but am stupid

>>5414550
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Crosley-Custom-24-Retro-TV/51741957

>>5415809

I have one, it's not too bad. It's decent and pretty much undetectable lag. $20 at a thrift store.

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-ppyd0TEMYa5/p_284LC13S1U/Sharp-LC-13S1U.html This is the model. Surprisingly it's multi format, will do ntsc, pal, secam, etc. 3 composite inputs, 2 s-video, 1 component.

>>5429946
Kek

>>5429889
>i've never even watched an old documentary about how TVs are made
lol. dad should have whiped out the credit card for the last PBS begfest

>>5429889
>highly skilled labor at that
Dude...most CRTs were made by Asian sweatshop labor. When I said amount of labor required, I meant you need a huge amount of yellow and brown hands to make the things profitably.

>>5427574
>tfw some faggot inserts himself into something that has nothing to do with what he did 20 years ago

>>5431481
>tfw some faggot wasn't alive 20 years ago
>tfw some faggot is reatrded

>>5431005
Yeah, honestly in a factory setting they'll simplify the process to the point where any one person assembles their own individual part and sends it on down the line. Do that repetitively 40+ hours a week and it no longer requires thought at a certain point.

>having a raspberrypi with composite video out into a CRT
it's the last console I'll ever buy lads

>>5431481
Please don't insult faggots like this, those poor faggots are nowhere near as gay as the dude you are replying to.

>>5432186
Try HDMI to OLED when you can afford it

>>5432186
>raspi

i hate retropi so fucking much. it's so useless, just get a decent used pc at that point, why use a raspi? besides, composite is trash. crtemudriver and a separate pc, even old, is leaps and bounds better

>>5432262
what a fucking pleb, just because you're too stupid to figure out linux doesn't mean it's "so useless"

>>5414278
>what is economy of scale
Transport with insurance alone would be $200 to ship out a boutique CRT. These things wouldn't be getting sent in sea containers by the thousands at commercial pricing.

>>5414414
There has been no advancement of CRT technology because nobody is investing in it. To apply modern materials/manufacturing to CRT would require teams of engineers and scientists to go back and start working on it again, which necessitates a large investment and the prospect of large returns, which don't exist.

>>5414351
There is no point in talking about "consumer grade CRTs" price since there is no chance of a new CRT being created by the millions again. Professional sets are a much better indicator of per-unit cost for low-volume production.

if anything we're getting $60 pastel-colored mini-crts at urban outfitters for 16 year old girls to take exactly two instagram pics of and leave on their chest of drawers for the rest of eternity

Tips on how to keep my uncle from ruining my CRTs with magnets?

My uncle, Pierre, is the bane of my existence. He's a magnet-obsessed cajun with a burning desire to experiment on the two CRTs I own. One of the TVs is in my bedroom, and the other is a monitor on my retro gaming PC that I keep in the room my wife and I use as an office/study. Pierre has a large neodymium magnet that I fear is going to cause irreparable damage to both televisions of I don't do something about it soon.

>>5432447
Are you his carer, or vice versa?

>>5432447
>magnet-obsessed cajun
you hate to see that

>>5432368
Actually they did advance CRT technology, the first major advancement was called LED and now they have OLED.

>>5432447
Remove all light switches, cover the windows and disconnect the phone line. Lay down plastic on your floor so you don't stain it. Set up up a large raccoon trap with a small BVM and some traditional cajun fare (like a greasy crawfish po boy) at the far end of the trap. Make sure the BVM is powered on, so when Pierre comes home he's attracted to the glow of the screen and the smell of the crawfish. As soon as you hear Pierre spring the trap, naturally he'll start flailing around a bit, so put on a pair of Armasight Nyx7 Gen 2+ night vision goggles and shoot him with a tranquilizer dart from a TeleDart RD706 rifle. Once his body has gone limp grab a Swann-Morton #14 Sterile Disposable Scalpel, approach the cage and slice his throat just under the adams apple with at least an inch of depth.

>>5432784
For once sound advice on this board

>>5432368
>There has been no advancement of CRT technology because nobody is investing in it
Like someone else said, vinyl pressing hadn't evolved in 30 years until they rediscovered the format.

>>5432640
>>5432656
Pierre's life is nowhere near as unfortunate as I've made it sound. Through it pains me to say it, I must admit that Pierre is the most handsome man I've ever laid eyes upon. He could have any woman he wanted, but he remains with my aunt (who is twenty years older than him) because, without her impeccable dental insurance from her employer, Pierre's teeth would fall victim to his diet of King Cakes and alligator.

Just last weekend, he managed to get into my office and do noticeable damage to my monitor. I've instructed my wife to never let him in the house when I'm not home, but he managed to use his irresistible charm to enter my home once again. Apparently, he told her that his "house broke down," probably confusing common automotive malfunctions with home maintenance, but despite his vague and incoherent story, he was able to slip past my wife and use his magnet once again.

>>5432270
i'm using archlinux (as i have for the past 4 years) right now for my 3rd year compsci assignments you utter nigger

i'm talking more about the hardware itself anyway, i just hate how people think the raspi is the second coming or something when it's just a small useless pc with sub-par ports. It works when you need really lightweight solutions and all but the SECOND you need anything remotely specific you're better off buying a shitty second hand tower pc and using that to play your games via RGB to a CRT instead of using shitty composite. Fuck, some laptops even come with s-video and will probably run emulators (even dreamcast ones probably) better than the raspi ever would.

not even trying to troll i just dont like inefficient solutions just because they seem innovative

>>5432447
>>5433370
What the fuck am I even reading ?

>>5433194
There hasn't been any development in vinyl pressing. All that's happened is that they've moved away from shit tier recycled material and back to 180gm virgin stock like the format was originally intended to use.

>>5433484
dude its just a cheap open source computer just calm down

>>5433565
You'd be wrong. New presses have been opened that are a lot smaller, more energy-efficient, and produce fewer defective discs than the ancient monstrosities they used in the 70s. It used to be that the defect rate of discs was something like 40% and now they can get it down to 10%.

https://www.popsci.com/viryl-robotic-vinyl-record-press

>>5433642
i like getting mad about computers.
dont worry you're cool, just don't skip out on the good stuff just because it won't run on a raspi, that's all.

besides, you can't say you're not going to buy another console ever until you've at least had a dreamcast

>>5433484
>remotely specific
Like GPIO? 240p? Wew lad. Do hipsters with memeberries make you so mad you can't think straight or are you actually retarded?

>>5433484
>i'm using archlinux
we're SO impressed, you must be a linux EXPERT!
>3rd year compsci assignments
confirmed 20 year old faggot

>>5414296
OLED looks better than CRT

>>5434616
i wish i was 20 lmfao. I'm actually a 27 year old faggot way behind schedule on most of his stuff, so it's not like i'm trying to impress anyone. That boat's gone, dude

Besides, it was just to say, hey dude, i use nix on the daily and i've been for years, that's not the main issue for me. It's more of a thing about not settling for sub-par solutions when, again, you can just get an old tower pc with a card that's compatible with crtemu and has an rgb or s-video port and use that instead. I mean, fuck, if you're already autistic enough to get a CRT for vidya you might as well do it properly. Raspi seems to me as the hipster faggot solution for someone who doesn't really know what he's doing but saw an instructables once about making a doctor who themed mame cabinet with a shitty TN 16:9 monitor or some crappy crt with convergence and geometry issues up the ass without even noticing it.

I guess i'm just an elitist fucker that's probably more concerned about nitpicks than actually playing the games (which could be a valid point you could make) but that's just how i see things. Besides, the results you get from it are worth it, so whatever. If you think this is too idiotic for you, go ahead and ignore what i've said and tell everyone i'm that faggot loser that spent $$ on a pvm and has more fun tinkering with it than actually playing his fucking saturn for the 5th time this week, but that's just how i roll.
Peace.

>>5434623
Eh, depends. For instance, we're not ever gonna get anything as good as dot-pitch CRT technology anytime soon, so it really depends more on stuff like panels, applications and what you actually expect from it.

>>5432447
>>5433370
I haven't laughed this hard in years.

>>5434634
You want to be an elitist fucker, but you're not one. You're just a faggot, dude. Now shut the fuck up and stop talking about things you don't understand.

>>5414296
I mean, good luck finding and powering a 55" CRT.

>>5432742
I know you're just being a smartarse, but CRT and LCD tech were advancing parallel to one another, much like TFT and OLED tech both being advanced in parallel over the last 15-20 years.

>>5433194
>>5433651
Do you honestly think the market for retro gaming CRTs is anywhere near the scale of vinyl records? It's not like CRTs are good for literally anything but retro game consoles designed around the flaws of the technology (nobody will be buying them for old movies), and they aren't even 'collectable' like vinyl records, plus they are fuckoff heavy and power hungry, a real inconvenience.

>>5434634
What are you talking about getting "as good as dot-pitch CRT"? You know we have smaller pixels with greater clarity on modern cheap $150 LCDs than on most color CRTs?

>>5429928
>because there is just about no downside
I don't have an OLED screen because the organic parts degrade in 5 years.

this evolved into a much more interesting thread than /crt/

>>5435010
aite man

enjoy your whatevs

>>5435216
Source to backup that claim, and specifics? CRTs and LCDs suffer image degradation with age/use too, so i'm interested in a comparative study.
Anecdotally people say OLEDs get burn-in easier than CRTs, but i haven't seen any proper measurements yet.

>>5435023
>I mean, good luck finding and powering a 55" CRT.
CRTs max out at 40" due to the physical limitations of glass blowing.

>>5435023
>It's not like CRTs are good for literally anything but retro game consoles designed around the flaws of the technology (nobody will be buying them for old movies)
Motion quality. Especially when you're watching sports, you do definitely notice flat panel lag. There's more uses for a CRT than just games.

>>5435995
I concede an average CRT will beat an average LCD when it comes to motion blur, due to the inherent flickering. But you can drop $3k on an low-response time OLED with strobing and betterion motion clarity than most CRTs, so if we're talking high-end (like what it would cost to manufacture a new boutique CRT) a sports fan could just buy a strobing 60" OLED and it would be superior.

It's not just retro but modern games. Fighting tourneys have died out because they can't get CRTs anymore.

>>5412790
People ITT have explained why new CRT production isn't feasible (or why what little production still exists isn't good enough). Although I do think support and maintenance for the CRTs that already exist is going to grow substantially. RGB-modding for consumer sets is probably going to get a lot easier, now that people are designing boards specifically to do so.

I feel like pro monitors have the best chance of getting brand new parts made for them. They already have a dedicated community that's willing to spend money and are much less common than consumer sets. The fact that there's a typically a lot more documentation on them helps too.

>>5436330
>Although I do think support and maintenance for the CRTs that already exist is going to grow
Tubes can be rebuilt (electron guns replaced and whatnot) but stuff like phosphor burn is a difficult problem with no easy solution.

Monochrome CRTs aren't that complicated, you could probably make them in your garage. Color tubes unfortunately...

>>5436330
>People ITT have explained why new CRT production isn't feasible

It can be feasible if you want trash-tier 13" sets with RF only. The problem is, you don't want that, you want 36" 2000s Trinitrons with component inputs which definitely will never happen again.

>>5436336
Since I don't think a company like Sony is ever going to bother restarting tube production to satisfy an extremely small niche, the best you can hope for is refurbished tubes getting made from recycled parts.

>>5436386
>Since I don't think a company like Sony is ever going to bother restarting tube production to satisfy an extremely small niche
>it is only an extremely small niche of people who would buy a CRT TV
If I keep repeating it, it will eventually come true.

>>5436396
The overwhelming majority of consumers (even those who enjoy /vr/ stuff) view CRTs as bulky and outdated, which is why all of those new Mini classic consoles don't have any analog output to speak of. Those who seek out CRTs are already a small niche, and those who would actually buy a new tube or set instead of just finding a used one is an even smaller portion of an already tiny market.

>>5436371
>baby doesn't know that all those cheap CRTs are RGB on the inside

>>5436981
All color CRTs are RGB, nimrod. The signal is converted from NTSC or whatever into RGB which is the bare signals driving the electron guns.

what if someone went to NEC (or sony or basically anyone who made high end/decent CRTs but i really like nanaos so bear with me) and asked for blueprints/machinery if that's even possible?

making limited quantity runs of arcade or enthusiast grade tubes/full sets would be economically feasible or would it just be something someone with jeff bezos money could do just because he wanted one for himself/the retrogaming community?

I wonder if doing more r&d with CRT technology could come up with something capable of competing with modern panels after years of pouring millions into research... but i guess oled is the way to go even if i hate how they rot after like 5 years. My psvita is a piece of shit now and i havent even used it much

>>5437323
forgot to add, is there no way to circumvent size/weight/toxic metals and lead? surely, there must be some other way

fuck, even oscilloscopes with crts would be a good thing to have in the end, i miss vector graphics

>>5437323
>>5437328
Its entirely possible for them to be created, but the engineering workforce, the machinery, and the research scientists no longer exist. It's dead and gone. CRTs had 6-7 decades of scientific research and engineering to get them as good as they were in 2005, and even then they were reaching diminishing returns as all mature tech does.

It's been said many times ITT by many people - who the hell do you think is going to pay for this new R&D you're talking about? R&D that doesn't even guarantee success, just explore possibilities.

>>5437328
Large companies that spent billions developing CRT technology decided developing plasmas, LCDs and OLEDs was the easiest way to make TVs thinner and larger. Fuck man, use your head.

>>5437340
>the machinery
It's probably sitting in an abandoned factory somewhere like with vinyl presses and will eventually be rediscovered in 30 years time.

I do agree if vinyl and cassette tapes could be revived, then there's hope for CRTs however it will probably be a few decades from happening when there likely won't be enough working ones left and there will be a demand for new ones.

I expect probably I'll be in my 50s when it happens.

>>5437323
>or would it just be something someone with jeff bezos money could do just because he wanted one for himself/the retrogaming community?
It would probably take his money, I'm not going to lie.

>>5414235
I live in the Eu and there were new CRTs for sale in electronics shops around 2009 at least.

>>5436985
>All
I have a few CRTs that are color but only green. Checkmate underage.

>>5438263
Those are monochrome, regardless of the particular phosphor colour used.

Checkmate denied.

>>5438456
What about colour wheels, CBS, Col-R-Tel and friends. Colour image, monochrome tube, double checkmate.

>>5438456
>colour
>own goal
Never mind checkmate. You just lost at something easier than tic tack toe

>>5438476
Don't forget CRT projectors. They're not color. They're just a lot of monochrome.

>>5438476
>>5438507
Nice to see the goalpost movers have rocked up.

Enjoy your "victory"

>>5437323
>how they rot after like 5 years
This is the biggest problem with OLED panels: They're the Kodak Disposable Camera of display technology, except they cost $5,000 instead of $10. I hate it. Plasma was the peak of flat panel display technology. Sure, it required a bit of babying because of its tendency towards image retention, but it looked at least as good as OLED does and lasted three times as long (~100,000 hrs vs OLED's ~30,000 hours).

Plasma didn't have response time issues like LCDs. It did still have upscaling issues, but a proper upscaler solves that. But actually the real problem with the technology is that it's physically not possible to make color plasma panels in sizes smaller than 32".

>>5438532
>tfw I own 2 KRP-500s and a PDP-428XD

Never again considering an OLED after past experience with cellphones and music players. It's shit technology, pure and simple.

>>5438529
Maybe the reason you keep loosing at tic tack toe is because you think it has goalposts?

>>5436414
>The overwhelming majority of consumers (even those who enjoy /vr/ stuff) view CRTs as bulky and outdated, which is why all of those new Mini classic consoles don't have any analog output to speak of. Those who seek out CRTs are already a small niche, and
It's estimated that you only need the backing of about 15% of the populace to make a revolution succeed. It's just that the majority is generally completely indifferent.

To the average slug, a TV is just a TV and they'll just buy whatever is there and whether that is a CRT or a plasma or a TFT or an OLED matters little.

>>5440502
At present it's probably like <5% of the population that has a burning desire to revive CRTs.

>>5440502
Average consumer wants huge and light enough for one man or two small women to move.

>>5440849
>>5440502
The duality of man.

>>5432262
i built a 2700x/170ti computer last july and *gasp* i bought a raspi too. it's like people buy stuff that they like

>>5441801
>buying crappy shit
>bragging about it
wew lad

>>5441801
Didn't you hear? He uses arch linux!
>>5442006
Pi haters are the biggest faggots on this board. Do you hate arduino boards too?

>>5442006
this post brought to you by GangWeed

>>5440830
It's nowhere near 5%, you just have a warped perspective because you are into /vr/

>>5438537
All tech starts out shit when its new, don't be a luddite.

>>5414274
Read up on the RoHS initiative. Lead is one of the banned substances, and leaded glass is vital to production of convential CRT picture tubes. Some CRTs were made with non leaded glass, but I am unsure if they ever corrected the problems they had with them.

>>5415809
Recently found an LCD EDTV. It's nice to have something so portable and the image is passable but as everyone else has said, they're still old-ass LCD screens. I'd love for someone to make a decent sized one with current tech

>>5442316
There are specific exemptions for lead use in some applications where there are no suitable alternatives available. CRTs are one of them.

I spent 3 months solid preparing an environmental compliance declaration for a fibre-optic firm which used leaded solder glass in their hermetic feedthroughs.

>>5442032
>all pis are mememerries
>codes in arduino
What I really hate are tards who think they know anything because they read a blog
>>5442057
It is indeed

Absolutely never happening.

The CRT is gone and never coming back.

FPGA consoles, quality joypads and the like are cheap to produce, cheap to ship, and perhaps most importantly of all, are all made out of components that the rest of the world outside gaming still uses, but a giant box with a 70lb giant glass tube in it that nobody outside a few hundred thousand 30 year old boomers cares about is a totally different story.

The best you can hope for is for LED screens to have better color depth.

>>5414230
Not CRTs as a whole, but both the EU and the US has banned the production and importation of electronics containing lead glass. You could make the whole tube out of barium glass instead of just the front, but that would make it quite a bit more costly. If not, you'd have to do a lot of shady shit to get this going.

>>5442619
plenty of dead CRTs to harvest lead glass from

>>5442647
Pretty sure it wouldn't help that the lead glass would be recycled since you'd still be producing new stuff containing it. Anyway, I just noticed that it has been posted earlier in this thread that at least the EU has exceptions for certain stuff, including CRTs. It would still be a huge hurdle to get this up and running without being overly expensive though.

>>5442591
>outside a few hundred thousand 30 year old boomer

Baby boomers are like 70, dude.

>>5442967
Welcome to 4channel. Enjoy your stay.

>>5442650
EU RoHS exemption for lead glass in CRTs expired in 2016

>>5442619
If it's a legal/regulatory issue rather than a sales "People simply won't buy CRTs in 2019" thing then that's not a big deal. We can always pay off corrupt politicians to get that repealed. :^)

>>5443029
You could be waiting a long time though. Absinthe was banned in the US for almost 100 years.

>>5442973
>ima zoomer
Stay where you belong

>this thread
Just when I thought /vr/ couldn't get any stupider.

>>5445637
Why bump it? It's going to autosage tomorrow when it hits 14 days old.

You know, embedded tech has gotten fast enough, I bet you could just make a 640 x 480 array of really small, tightly packed rgb leds. Perfect contrast ratio because there's no backlight. Might take a lot of power but there are probably ways to optimize.

>>5446509
>what is OLED, microLED

>>5412790
I'd give it 15-20 years.

>>5446560
microLED is great, but its too small. i need nice chonky pixels, my guy.

>>5446509
You don't need 640x480, 320x240 will do nicely. However you will only be able to properly display games with that exact resolution.

What would be murder would be the wiring.

>>5447343
>>5447317
>>5446509
This is what LED sign boards are.

>>5447373
Resolution is limited.

>>5447376
but a few of these $20 64x64 modules could be aligned together to make a screen for a few hundred dollars. It would be proof-of-concept only to say you have a true LED monitor, the screen-door effect would be terrible.

>>5447380
one of these in action to give a sense of their size and capability
https://youtu.be/WduwyqG1Xxs

I've never seen someone put them together to make an actual screen.

>>5447387
https://youtu.be/KXi05BpfKRo

>>5447397
https://youtu.be/5SQjCci90P4

>>5412790
how do i find a crt this nice and with a picture so crisp? do i really need to mod my snes to do rgb? do pvms really cost $1400?

>>5447508
by looking for them.
no, unless it's a jr.
depends.

>>5446560
>what is OLED
A garbage, overpriced technology that rots itself from the inside out
>microLED
A potentially bright future, but no consumer-grade examples available yet.

>>5412790
>Comfortlords
I know what I'm naming my band