/vr/ - Retro Games

>>5409175
kill yourself zoomer

>>5409175
The sales and shareware numbers for this game and Doom were made up/heavily exaggerated in the 90s. It was a very popular game but nothing compared to console games.

The rest of your post I have no comment on, but just wanted remind you not to take everything stated by gaming companies in the 90s, especially things said by id software, at face value.

at best it was arcad-ey FPS fun when we were young

DoOM is what really was novel and played much more than this

>>5409175
> tech demo for a game that didn't exist and development hadn't been started on yet
???

>>5409175
git gud, zoomer.

>>5409175
By no means this game is straight bad, but it is unimpressive even in comparis inemporaries

I still kind of like Wolf3D's music but it has major problems with the maps blending together, some maps making it too easy to get lost and whipping around at full speed with zero acceleration or momentum can be a bit disorienting

>>5409524
It's one of my favorite games, but you're right about the map design. ECWolf's map feature makes it easy to not get lost, but it doesn't help with the single-height maps.

As far as the music goes, I really like the timbres. Doom's FM sounds always felt like an afterthought to me, but Wolfenstein seemed to be made more with in mind (as opposed to ROMplers like the MT-32 and SC-55).

>>5409175
I never had trouble telling where I was in Wolfenstein 3D despite all the textures looking the same. Am I an anomaly? It just wasn't too hard knowing my sense of direction.

I always thought that wolfestein and Doom feels different.
Doom is more about enter in rooms filled with demons and kills all of them, and Wolfestein is about infiltrate and kill nazis.

>>5409175
We have a fps general, wimp. Don't kill threads to whine about shit you don't get

It's easy to loose appreciate of games like this, but you need to understand that at the time it felt super immersive and fun because there had been nothing like it. It's still a decent game, but I rarely see people say it's a masterpiece like doom or anything. Even with Doom, just 3 years from that point there was super mario 64, which was so much more impressive

>>5409175
Well it's a cool concept (killing nazis with machine guns), but I honestly found it hard to get into Wolfenstein. As I kid I just used the cheat and ran around blasting the nazis with unlimited ammo. Once in a while I'd try playing legit and I found the gameplay tedious. The lack of the shotgun weapon really sets it back. You basically get pistol, slow machine gun and fast machine gun. The weapon variety in Doom was a major innovation and very well done.

But, how do you actually have fun with this game? Because of the weapons that are available, I assume you are meant to methodically clear each room, trying to pick of enemies one at a time without getting corned. So it's this painstaking, room clearing process. Then you have to navigate the map, which has very repetative texturing, but not only that, the rooms are all orthogonal, so they are very similar architecturally. Further, Wolfenstien lacks an in-game map like Doom, and the run speed is also much slower than Doom. Further again, the maps are often intentionally maze like with hidden passages that cannot be detected unless you press on an indistinguishable section of wall. Inevitably you find yourself having to press on every wall in the map trying to find the secret passage that you need. All in all it's fairly tedious, the cool factor of killing nazis only takes it so far. Am I getting something wrong?

The Catacombs games had better gameplay in my view. Better enemy variety and better weapon variety. They were in EGA rather than VGA but still more fun.

>>5409175
It's decent enough, with some arcadey fun, but it is pretty plain and samey in some regards, and I think it starts overstaying its welcome after the first three episodes, the Nocturnal Missions are not very fun. Best played in small portions.

Doom is obviously a more advanced game with much more depth, but for the kind of game that Wolfenstein 3D is, I think a game that does everything it tries to do, but better, would be Rise Of The Triad, which is fitting, as it started development as its sequel.

>tech demo
stopped reading there

>>5409779
Well, most of IDs games from the 90s were tech demos in a way, but they also generally approached it as "What would be a FUN game we could make to demonstrate the tech?"

>>5409175
in 1993 a friend showed me this game and doom on the same day. i was 8 at the time - wolfenstein was not all that impressive, mildly interesting at best. doom was mind blowing in comparison

.t boomer

>>5409175
When this was the only game you had, or the first fps type game, it was pretty cool. Once you played doom wolfenstein wasn't as fun.

>>5409746
Wolf3d wasn't a cultural sensation like doom was though. At the time i thought wolfenstein was fun, but it didn't wow me. I'm fairly sure doom was a much better game based on the cultural impact it had. Even non-game playing normies had doom on their work PCs.

>>5409175
It was very impressive for the time, and had staying power because of killing nazis and ultra violence. As game, yes, it's aged pretty bad though. Mostly hitscan enemies, only 4(or 6) weapons, all orthogonal level design.

>>5409257
>>5409926

WHAT ARE WE FIGHTING FOOOOOOOOORRR?!

it was one of the first good performing texture mapped games, good for a wank at least

it made ultimafags and rpgfags seethe.

>>5410062
>there are Ultimafags who STILL hold a grudge over Wolfenstein 3D and Doom

>>5409713
>I always thought that wolfestein and Doom feels different.

They use two completely different game engines. Wolf 3D's engine is ray casting. Doom's engine constructs levels using "sectors" which are pieced together using a binary partition tree. Basically Doom's engine is a lot more robust than Wolfenstein 3D's, as each sector can draw floors and ceilings at different heights and can also draw walls on angles. Wolfenstein 3D's engine can only draw walls and ceilings at the same height and cal only draw walls at 90 degree angles. The most advance implementation of the Wolfenstein 3D was Rise of the Triad: Dark war. Which uses a modified Wolf 3D engine, and still has the wall and floor/ ceiling limitations. Rise of the Triad started life as Wolfenstein 3D II.

RotT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoaZbSS7CRk

Doom:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0nlO87evhY

Note how Rise of the Triad's maps have no height variation and all walls are 90 degrees. The developers used sprite platforms to create a vertical element to the game. While Doom's maps are much more complex.

>>5409175
It's nice, Doom is way nicer. Duke is where it's at for me though.

>>5410335
>Doom's engine constructs levels using "sectors" which are pieced together using a binary partition tree
It kind of raycasts the visplanes in a way though.

>>5410335
That's a really dull video for showing off ROTT.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap52SmMvVxQ

I personally prefer playing as Lorelei, because she's so crazy fast.

>>5410365
>It kind of raycasts the visplanes in a way though.

OH yeah, that is true. I guess the binary space partitioning tree is what gives Doom the edge.

>>5410379
>That's a really dull video for showing off ROTT.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap52SmMvVxQ [Embed]
>I personally prefer playing as Lorelei, because she's so crazy fast.


I just grabbed one of the top videos that wasn't "The Hunt Begins" Shareware demo, which has different levels from the retail game. Rise of the Triad has a great soundtrack, by the way. Lee Jackson contributed a lot of great stuff to it.

>>5410392
The soundtrack is top tier, and I always get a rush of endorphins when I hear people use it for their Doom levels. I think Going Down The Fast Way is the best Level 1 theme ever made for an FPS.

Really underrated game by the way. People compare it too much to Doom, which is a very different game, when it's more the divergence from how Wolfenstein 3D developed.
Wolf3D had a score system and lives, and stuff like that, because that's kind of just how you did an action game back then, the features were kind of vestigial, and for Doom, they realized there wasn't really any point to have those features for the kind of game they were making, and dropped them during development, while Rise Of The Triad went the opposite direction and ramped it up.

>>5410365
I don't see how.

>>5410410
Fills in the row of pixels one at a time as it draws a plane. Raycasting isn't perhaps the proper name for that, but it's what comes to mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujXrQVyl610

>>5410434
It basically the same as the wall drawing loop except that the y axis through the texture isn't constant. I see why you might say that, I'm just a stickler when it comes to terminology.
As a bit of trivia, voxel style heightmap renderers often use this kind of loop. Mode 7 on the snes as well, and VDP2 planes on the sega saturn.

>>5410404
>The soundtrack is top tier, and I always get a rush of endorphins when I hear people use it for their Doom levels. I think Going Down The Fast Way is the best Level 1 theme ever made for an FPS.
>Really underrated game by the way. People compare it too much to Doom, which is a very different game, when it's more the divergence from how Wolfenstein 3D developed.
>Wolf3D had a score system and lives, and stuff like that, because that's kind of just how you did an action game back then, the features were kind of vestigial, and for Doom, they realized there wasn't really any point to have those features for the kind of game they were making, and dropped them during development, while Rise Of The Triad went the opposite direction and ramped it up.


Yeah, it really is much more "arcade like" than Doom. Ride of the Triad is a wacky game by design. I love it when the enemies feign their deaths and pop right back up. The weapons like The Dark Staff and Excalibat. What's interesting is that RotT would only let you hold four weapons at once, instead of having all weapons available when found. Hand gun akimbo handguns, sub machine gun and one explosive weapon. The power ups like God mode and Dog Mode. And of course the ludicrous gibs. Tom Hall had a lot of fun with the design docs on this one. I know Tom Hall said in the past that using the Wolf3D engine probably wasn't the best idea in retrospect and they should have secured the Doom engine. Especially given that the game was released after Doom. But they made the best of what they had to work with.

>>5409257
fpbp

>>5410472
They could have also used an earlier iteration of the Build Engine. For what they did, they did make the very most out of it. ROTT, and also Zero Tolerance on the Sega Genesis, I think basically showed the upper limits of what you could do with 90 degree walls and no height variation.

I love the Excalibat btw, because you can use it to send the fatguys fucking flying with a good swing.

>>5410460
>As a bit of trivia, voxel style heightmap renderers often use this kind of loop. Mode 7 on the snes as well, and VDP2 planes on the sega saturn.

Ken Silverman's Build Engine supported voxels as well. They were never used in Duke Nukem 3D because of performance reasons, but they did get used in Shadow Warrior (as 3D sprites) and Blood. The Build Engine basically functions like the Doom Engine.

>>5410554
>They could have also used an earlier iteration of the Build Engine.

That would have been possible too. There were Build Engine games released before Duke Nukem 3D.

>>5409175
I think the music is great and I remember having huge amounts of fun playing it back in the early 90s. The relative weakness of your character helps to make the gameplay pretty gripping - even if you have 100% health, it doesn't take too much gunfire to bring you down. The lonely corridors, far-away clanging doors, and Nazi imagery make for an atmospheric experience.

>>5410584
The build engine is based off roughly similar concepts (sectors that are drawn individually, incrementally building clipping information, and using constant depth texturing loops), but it uses portals between concave (!) sectors, instead of doom's bsp tree and convex subsector approach.

I don't know how the voxel renderer in build works, but I think Ken Silverman's voxlap engine might actually use something closer to a raycasting approach.

>>5410690
>>5410584
Also, "voxel" heightmap renderers are not really voxels, they just look like it. They're quite a bit simpler than the stuff you see in build or voxlap.

One of the most obvious Zoomer bait threads of all time. You will never experience the golden age of dis gaming. And for that, I pity you

everytime I see someone using "clunky" I know the guy complaining is a shitter. every single time. W3D do have problems, I agree there are too many levels per chapter and some of them are too samey, but "it's clunky, it doesn't feels right!" isn't one of them

>>5410787
Clunky has a proper use, it's just the question if that's the case. For Wolfenstein 3D, I wouldn't describe it as clunky at all.

"Clunky" to me would be like, slow controls and awkward handling. Like imagine noticeable input delay, maybe together with slippery ice physics, and you feel like you really have to put some weight into your control inputs, but not too much, because of the slipping.

>>5410719
I played Wolf3d around its release, and it was a blast at the time, but once Doom came out it was hard to look back.

>>5409175
My onion on the matter is that it's just one of those games that aged horribly. Not a bad game standing on its own, but you compare it to every single one of the games that came after and it's a dumpster fire.

>>5409175
You think you're fucking funny?

>>5409262
You have no idea what you are talking about. It killed workplace productivity when it came out, it clogged uni and company networks because people played it around the clock instead of working. Our uni had to ban the game entirely two weeks after release and restrict network use to important tasks.

>>5410584
BUILD uses portals instead of BSP you regtard. It's vastly more flexible. At least this allows for moving sectors naively Retard..

>>5409746
Doom is way more impressive than Super Mario 64.

>>5410854
>he didn't see sm64 at release
sm64 impressed parents that knew nothing of games for the same reason as doom - it was the latest tech put to use in a game oozing atmosphere.

>>5410805
It's funny how more modern games fits in this clunky definition than old titles *cough* rdr2 *cough*

>>5409175
>even in the 90's I thought it sucked.

yeah in 1999 when you were still shitting your diaper.

>>5409175
You forgot:
>fixed ceiling height
>non-textured floor and ceiling
>flat geometry
>only 90 degree wall angles

>>5411003
I won't strictly disagree with that, some modern games do indeed have shit controls and handling (to my ire, increasingly many console games limit your options to rebind controls, or lack them altogether!), but then, as do some old games. The big question is if they're a dealbreaker (like are they so bad that the game is unbearable, or is the game otherwise so good that you can look past it, at least to a point, etc). Like I think the original Resident Evil controls are pretty unpleasant in a way, but the game is still very good and very fun.

Haven't played RDR2, but I did like RDR quite a lot, and found it quite enjoyable. Kind of apprehensive about RDRD2, however.

>>5411113
If you wanted it to run fast on 1992 era computers, that's what you had to aim at. They had looked at Ultima Underworld, and though it was very visually impressive, it would be quite slow and taxing for PCs at the time.
By simplifying the graphics and levels that way, you could leave a lot of memory and processing power free for other things, which means you could have much faster gameplay, which was their goal.

It was a compromise which I think was actually just right for the time. First person shooters were still not all that common, and most were slow.

> If you wanted it to run fast on 1992 era computers, that's what you had to aim at.

That's what they thought at the time. If you used doom's bsp approach with the simple maps it could have run even faster, or allowed for non-90 degree walls without any performance loss. (As long as you kept the fixed floor and ceiling heights with no textures, of course). They just didn't know about that technique until wolf3d snes and doom.

>>5411328
Meant to quote
>>5411158

in order to understand something, in this case, a game, its important to understand what came before it. in this case, nothing comparable. Same as Doom, which still holds up. W3D doesn't hold up in the same way that the first two Metroids don't compare to Super. but that is just the evolution of things.

>>5410847
ah i remember my uncle forbidding me to play it on his computer whenever i came to play with my cousin, good stuff

>>5411385
You played it anyway though, right?

ROTT support in ECWolf WHEN

>>5412283
>ROTT support in ECWolf WHEN

The Rise of the Triad source code was released back in 2002. But there really aren't many good source ports available.

>>5412419
cus no one cares and its not fair

>>5409175
I do. It's a fast-paced dungeon crawl FPS where you can kill Hitler. What other FPS games let you kill Hitler?

>>5412419
I recall trying sdlrott many years ago and finding it horribly broken, is that still basically the only option?

>>5412813
>>>5412419 (You)
>I recall trying sdlrott many years ago and finding it horribly broken, is that still basically the only option?

There is also WinROTTGL

http://www.riseofthetriad.dk/DL_GlROTT.htm

And ECWolf devs do note that they have ROTT on their roadmap, along with other Wolf 3D engine games like Blake Stone, Corridor 7 and Operation Body Count.

I think that one's opinion of Wolf3D will heavily depend on whether one enjoys the aesthetic. Personally, while I think that Quake has rather dull single-player combat mechanics and very dull and repetitive enemy behavior, the atmosphere of the game is so potent and evocative that it's one of my favorite games of all time. I think that Wolf3D, if anything, actually has better combat mechanics than Quake, and possibly more interesting enemy behavior. And to me, Wolf3D's atmosphere is pretty evocative. The sound design, the textures, the monotonous long hallways, the fact that you can't just soak up bullets... all combine to create a desolate sense of fighting one's way through hostile Nazi turf. Don't get me wrong - I think that Quake is a somewhat better game on the whole than Wolf3D, and I certainly find myself revisiting Quake more frequently than Wolf3D in my thoughts, but I certainly think that Wolf3D holds its own given the year it was released.

I think that one's opinion of Wolf3D will heavily depend on whether one enjoys the aesthetic. To illustrate what I mean, I'll bring up another game that I think highly of - Quake. Personally, while I think that Quake has rather dull single-player combat mechanics and very dull and repetitive enemy behavior, the atmosphere of the game is so potent and evocative that it's one of my favorite games of all time. I think that Wolf3D, if anything, actually has better combat mechanics than Quake, and possibly more interesting enemy behavior. And to me, Wolf3D's atmosphere is pretty evocative. The sound design, the textures, the monotonous long hallways, the fact that you can't just soak up bullets... all combine to create a desolate sense of fighting one's way through hostile Nazi turf. Don't get me wrong - I think that Quake is a somewhat better game on the whole than Wolf3D, and I certainly find myself revisiting Quake more frequently than Wolf3D in my thoughts, but I certainly think that Wolf3D holds its own given the year it was released.

I think that one's opinion of Wolf3D will heavily depend on whether one enjoys the aesthetic. To illustrate what I mean, I'll bring up another game that I think highly of - Quake. Personally, while I think that Quake has rather dull single-player combat mechanics and very dull and repetitive enemy behavior, the atmosphere of the game is so potent and evocative that it's one of my favorite games of all time. I think that Wolf3D, if anything, actually has better combat mechanics than Quake, and possibly more interesting enemy behavior. And to me, Wolf3D's atmosphere is pretty evocative. The sound design, the textures, the monotonous long hallways, the fact that you can't just soak up bullets... all combine to create a desolate sense of fighting one's way through hostile Nazi turf. I find myself revisiting Quake more frequently than Wolf3D in my thoughts, but I definitely think that Wolf3D holds its own given the year that it was released.

>>5409175
Do people actually like this piece of shit? It's basically just a tech demo for Skyrim and even in the 80's I thought it sucked.

>no music
>clunky controls
>every level looks the same
>tons of backtracking
>half the time you don't even know where you are

>>5409175
Based. Rise of the Triad did it so much better.

>>5409257
I'm 33 and it's mostly shit. It's interesting to play as a point of historic reference (and only with a sourceport to actually make it playable by human standards), but that's about it.

I could never even play Doom back in the day as a kid because just using the keyboard felt like bullshit, so I just turned on god mode and never bothered with strafing. I only actually beat the game for the first time without cheats using Zdoom.

>>5413409
Your opinion is garbage.

>>5409175
>be me
>play wolfenstein 3d and black stone (same engine with wolfenstein 3d)
>got headache after playing 1-2 hour (i could play other games all day without headache)
>drank aspirin, then go to sleep
never play any fps since then
i even hesitated to play mm6 when it's released because it's 360% like fps
played mm6, mm7, mm8, wiz8 with no problem
but still avoid fps games till now

>>5409175
>pressing against every wall looking for secrets
>KHZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ sfx

>>5409175
>>shitty music
Even though it's like playing as a legally blind person at times, check out the SNES version of the music where the music is exceptionally good (I need to rip it to a mp3). Even the sfx are amazingly pleasant on the ear. I'm not sure if you can make the PC version play like that but if you can it's amazing.
>>clunky controls
As has been pointed out, this is an invalid crictism.
>>every level looks the same
>>tons of backtracking
>>half the time you don't even know where you are
This is all a matter of taste. Some people like maze-type levels where you can get lost, others hate it. I'm not going to say you're retarded for it but maybe try being less lazy with your brain.

>>5409175 (OP)
>>shitty music
Even though it's like playing as a legally blind person at times, check out the SNES version where the music is exceptionally good (I need to rip it to a mp3). Even the sfx are amazingly pleasant on the ear. I'm not sure if you could add those sounds to the PC version somehow.
>>clunky controls
As has been pointed out, this is an invalid crictism.
>>every level looks the same
>>tons of backtracking
>>half the time you don't even know where you are
This is all a matter of taste. Some people like maze-type levels where you can get lost, others hate it. I'm not going to say you're retarded for it but maybe try being less lazy with your brain.

>>5409175
My mom prefers it over Doom simply because she's a casual low difficulty player who is mostly into the experience of shooting things on her way and humping walls for secrets, and Doom has verticality that makes her disoriented, is too dark for her old eyes, and she enjoys killing Nazis more than she does demons.

>>5413593
>hitler is boss of episode 3
i bet she enjoys killing hitler too

>>5413604
She does. If she can't handle a boss (I install mods like Totenkopf and the like from time to time), she leaves the save file until I'm visiting and we work out a buddy system where I strafe and she shoots.

>>5413606
i remember my friends played duke nukem 3d with buddy system. one hold the keyboard, and the other hold the mouse.

Have him kill some commies instead.

I played it a bit back in the 90s.

Jaguar version is better.

>>5413143
>ECWolf devs do note that they have ROTT on their roadmap
Alright!

>along with other Wolf 3D engine games like Blake Stone
Nice.

>Corridor 7
Ok.

>and Operation Body Count.
Bluh. Maybe they can fix the broken parts.

>>5412627
ROTT is criminally underrated.

>>5413724
>Jaguar version is better.

The 3DO port is great as far as retro home ports go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNpU9DoyHdA

The Jaguar version is also a great rendition as well. The first version of Wolf 3D that I ever played was the SNES port, which was based on the Jaguar port, but with all references of WWI and Nazi's removed. Also the dogs were replaced with giant rats. The SNES version is terrible in retrospect. There is a really impressive homebrew port of Wolfenstein 3D on the Sega Genesis/ Mega Drive that does a really good job of emulating the DOS game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v4SyWSlnJA

>>5413807
>WWI

WWII I mean.

>>5412419
>The Rise of the Triad source code was released back in 2002. But there really aren't many good source ports available.

Back when the source code was released on the 3D Realms website, one of the earliest source ports developed was for the Sega Dreamcast. I remember burning it to a CDR along with the shareware "In the Hunt" demo to test it out, and surprisingly it ran fast and looked good. It also supported the Dreamcast keyboard too.

>>5413848
That reminds me, it's a another criminal shame it never got a proper console port. Maybe then the Japanese could have gotten to play it, if it ever got exported.

>>5413409
lol no you're not.

>>5409175
Despite OP misusing the word "tech demo" even worse than normal, he's right. This game is just too primitive. Same few textures everywhere, enemies all behave nearly the same, it's just so samey and boring compared to Doom or Rise Of The Triad.
I have a feeling most Wolfenstein fans are operating on pure nostalgia. I challenge them to actually sit down and play the whole game, and report back if it's truly not boring.

>>5414019
Well, I'm a Wolfenstein 3D fan, but I'd argue that from a modern perspective, the game is best enjoyed in short portions (a level a day maybe), and that the game peaks with Episode 3.

The Nocturnal Missions are quite dry, and Spear Of Destiny, though better, doesn't do enough new things to be all that interesting either.
The Formgen expansions are trash.
The truly good Wolfenstein 3D stuff after that point is inventive mods people make with it, like Totenkopf SDL.

There's a certain appeal to the cartoony graphics, arcade-isms, and the simplicity of it all, but unlike games like Doom, Duke Nukem 3D, and Rise Of The Triad, it's not the kind where you can just blast through a dozen levels a day and then keep going for the rest of the week, because it's so exciting and you're having so much fun.
I think it'd probably be decent if you could port it to smartphones, and have a basic controller deck attached to it (it doesn't need a lot of buttons), because you could play a game like this while taking a shit.

>>5414019
Your face is too primitive.

>>5413409
Gayyy.
>>5413724
>based on the Mac version
No way.
>>5414019
I was trying to play through Spear of Destiny not that long ago and it was still fun. I got about halfway through it until I finally lost all my lives, and that was the only reason I stopped playing.
>>5414048
>There's a certain appeal to the cartoony graphics, arcade-isms, and the simplicity of it all, but unlike games like Doom, Duke Nukem 3D, and Rise Of The Triad, it's not the kind where you can just blast through a dozen levels a day and then keep going for the rest of the week, because it's so exciting and you're having so much fun.
I wouldn't say that any of those are games I enjoy binging on. I typically get my fix of FPS games a few levels in, especially if the maps involve searching for keys or switches. My play habits for Wolfenstein aren't really any different. I just treat it like Robotron or Space Harrier and get it out of my system.

There's been an Android version of it out for a while, by the way, but the movement controls sucked from my experience.

I don't exactly know how to describe this, but out of all FPS games, these primitive 2.5d shooters seem to have some of the most satysfying enemy deaths, I don't know why, but nothing stands close to me in satisfaction as watching these simple cardboard enemies in Wolf 3D/Blake Stone to hit the dirt.

>>5413784
ECWolf is pretty fucking good but development seems rather anemic at this time. Maybe it's because it has only one dev and no one's really interested in the Wolf engine (unfortunately).

>>5414193
Same, I use these games to scratch the FPS itch, but typically I don't stick with them for very long. They're nice to play the first few hours, but they get very repetitive afterwards.

>>5413807
>The SNES version is terrible in retrospect. There is a really impressive homebrew port of Wolfenstein 3D on the Sega Genesis/ Mega Drive that does a really good job of emulating the DOS game:
Well both consoles were inherently designed for 2D games. The raw speed of the genesis was like 4 times faster than the SNES. The SNES makes it up in 2D games by having far better colour and better in stuff like sprites, backgrounds, transparency, mode 7 (yes mode 7 is used in wolfenstein however clearly it was not very beneficial for fps games). So when you have to do everything in software the faster CPU tends to win. Another thing is all the information that is available today and all the mistakes and groundwork built upon by others, communities on the web helping them etc. while back in the days of the SNES they were on their own.

That's not to take anything away from such a great achievement. Just making the point that we're not comparing like with like here. Let's see them make a SNES port that's as good as the original.

>>5414412
The genesis isn't 4 times faster unless you're doing a ton of 32-bit operations and using the most of all 16 registers, and even then 4 times is iffy. The clock speed is significantly higher but each instruction takes a minimum of 4 cycles.

>>5414440
Nontheless it shits all over the snes speed-wise

>>5414412
>(yes mode 7 is used in wolfenstein however clearly it was not very beneficial for fps games).

I wonder how Mode 7 was used in the SNES port? That's interesting. But yeah, a bit unfair to compare a homebrew game that was released decades after the release of the original console. But the person who did the Wolf 3D port still did an incredible Job. Nothing was lost in the process and music and sound are great. I would like to see a modder remake Wolf3D on the SNES. Though there were a few Wolf3D-like FPS's on the Genesis/ Mega Drive back in the day. Like Battle Frenzy made by Domark, and Zero Tolerance and a couple others. TecToy made a Duke Nukem 3D game that plays like Wolf3D that was released in 1996. It actually wasn't too bad either. On the SNES there was Wolf3D, FaceBall 2000, Noah's Ark, which was nothing more than a Wolf3D hack and Doom. which used the Super FX2 chip. Jurassic Park for the SNES also has some FPS wolf3D inspired levels..

>>5409175
shouldn't you get playing call of duty on your daddy's big screen?

>>5414503
Carmack himself did the programming for wolf3d on the snes, and it's the first game he used BSPs with, as the standard raycasting approach was too much for the hardware.

>>5413161
>It's basically just a tech demo for Skyrim
Doesn't really work since Rogue is more complex than Skyrim.

>>5409175
Yeah pretty much but to get an idea you need to look at the quality of fps games before wolf/Doom to truly understand.
Kind of how before Star Trek and Star Wars sci fi was all absolutely terrible D-grade shlock horror movies

>>5414525
>Carmack himself did the programming for wolf3d on the snes, and it's the first game he used BSPs with, as the standard raycasting approach was too much for the hardware.

That's actually really cool. Sadly Wolf 3D on the SNES was still constricted by the hardware. But Carmack was pretty genius with the hardware. I remember hearing that they were going to originally outsource development of the SNES game, but something happened that caused ID to have to make it themselves, and they were rushed to throw it together in a deadline. The SNES port was mostly based on the Jaguar game as far as I know.

>>5410335
Not to mention Romero was just a fucking legend at good map design. Most modern mappers can't even compete

>>5410404
This is the only right answer. I hate fuckin doom babbies but for 80s-90s fps games, there is only pre-doom and post-doom.
Things start getting hazy in the late 90s with console fps', 2.5D co-existing with 3D games, muh half life paradigm shift, and the god awful shovelware from every second world shithole.

Wolfenstein is fine if you don't compare it do doom

>>5409175
I always thought this was the superior game.
It came out before id software made the pile of shit OP posted.

Where's the love for Hovertank 3D?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7juV9zo5Tk

"yay"
"yay"
"yay"
"yay"
"yay"
"GATE DETECTED!"

>>5415131
I played the sequel. Curse of the Catacombs.

>>5415005
>I remember hearing that they were going to originally outsource development of the SNES game, but something happened that caused ID to have to make it themselves
I recall what happened was that they had outsourced the port to Burger Bill, who forgot that his contract with Imagineer at the time meant that any work he did would legally be owned by them, thus he when they checked back with him, they found that out, and that he had thus not done any work on it.
They fired Bill, then halted development on Doom to hurriedly put together the SNES version of Wolfenstein 3D.

>>5415006
He's done some great maps, but the community surpassed them a long time ago. I fully expect Sigil to be good stuff (possibly better than his best Doom maps), but I doubt it'll be even close to as good as say, Double Impact, or that one almost scrapped .wad that turned up on /vr/ a couple of weeks back.

>>5415079
You're replying to one.

>>5409175
Wolfenstein 3D is alright. But it definitely pales in comparison to Doom.

>>5415006
>Most modern mappers can't even compete
Gonna have to disagree here. I love Romero's maps, his were easily among the most replayable and fun out of the default maps. And you can definitely see his influence in mappers.
But after 25 years, many mappers have been mapping for doom far longer than Romero himself did, and have thus gained more experience on how to create effective and challenging encounters and layouts. And with better understanding of the original engine limits, and source ports raising/removing them, map visuals nowadays are a whole league above what they were in the 90's too.

>>5412669
This is the most boomer post I've ever seen.

>>5415180
Patrician taste anon

>>5413606
This is adorable holy shit

>>5414989
2001: A Space Odyssey was a major influence as well, I think

>>5415342
Yeah. The Living End and Donut Of Deconstruction are some of the strongest ID maps, but already in Plutonia you see a whole bunch of maps which are better than Romero's average.

>>5413409
Why are you here?

imagine being this much of a fag

>>5413409
You could use a mouse with the original .exe, your PC was probably just really shitty, like you.

>>5414842
He meant dwarf fortress. Perhaps his phone autocorrected to Skyrim?

>>5415302
my point was that doom IS the definitive early 90s fps. You don't have such a dominate game in any other era. all the build engine games which i consider superior in gameplay, challenge, graphics, and atmosphere were all made after '94. But yea, people that say doom is the best or only fps to exist are just being silly. it just shows how unfamiliar they are with the genre.

>>5415909
I would say that Doom is my own very favorite FPS, for reasons such as
>Setting; style, design, and aesthetic, things look kinda like pulp sci-fi or a heavy metal album cover, I dig this kinda stuff, and each of the iwads have their own atmosphere to them
>Gameplay; the base is very solid, everything works on a fundamental level, visual design is also part of this (enemies are visually distinct, you're very unlikely to confuse one enemy for another, given their color, silhouette, or movement). Though the base game is easy, Final Doom offers some excellent challenge, and moreover...
>Usermade content; because it was made so you can mod it, and because the source code was released not all that many years later, together with the fact that making something for Doom often doesn't have to be that difficult, then couple these things with the solid gameplay base earlier, and the decades of content, it means if you're the kind of person who really likes this game, there's probably going to be a LOT of good content available. To me, this is one of the strongest reasons.

Would I declare it the best of the best? I don't know, I think it's highly subjective, and think it's probably far fetched to try to declare something as the best objectively, it makes more sense to me to declare something an outstanding example of a genre.
I have a hard time actually ranking favorites of something against one another, because often they have some kind of aspect of them that I like for its own sake, like how it would feel odd to me to suggest that a pizza is better than a chili, because they're different and strong for their own reasons.
There's a lot of other FPS games which I am very fond of, some which I would put right on the heels of Doom, for instance Half-Life, a lot for similar reasons such as Doom, or Duke Nukem 3D, and both of these for what they do differently from Doom. I can think of a bunch more.

>>5415282
No, you're getting people mixed up. It was another person. Burger Bill is pretty well known for a lot of great ports and would have gotten the job done in time. He was responsible for 3DO doom actually, but the reason for that one being shit was that Art Data thought it was reasonable for one programmer to port a game in two months. It's kind of amazing 3DO doom plays as well as it does.

POPULAR GAME BAD

>>5416263
That's distinctly what I remember. I think he just fucked up that time.

>>5410854
>I'm a contrarian
Doom is barely even 3D

>>5409175
>shitty music

>>5416423
I don't know which was really more impressive, but Super Mario 64 was running on hardware designed to push 3d graphics, Doom not so much.

>>5409257
This.

>>5409175
>not liking the Horst Wessel song

>>5416734
I liked Evil Incarnate better.

>>5416423
Doom is a 2D game or at very most 2.5D, it's not 3D at all. Even games with height like Duke Nukem or Heretic are considered 2.5D rather than full 3D.

I think he means impressive for the hardware... which is comparing apples and orange. .

>>5418527
The space of the world and the gameplay mechanics are in three dimensions at any rate.

What are y'all's favorite mod/fangame done in the Wolf3D engine or its sourceports?

I think Totenkopf SDL is really good.

>>5418527
Doom has height and the engine takes it into account for gameplay.
It's 3d where some elements and calculations are done in 2d for performance reasons. All 3d games take shortcuts to run on contemporary hardware in the same way.

>>5418873
>It's 3d where some elements and calculations are done in 2d for performance reasons
This. Though it skips on calculating height collision for quite a lot of things, this is for added speed, the engine is actually fully capable of it, and in Heretic you can for instance run underneath a flying enemy.

Because it is sector based, the base engine does not do rooms over rooms, however.

>>5418908
>Because it is sector based, the base engine does not do rooms over rooms, however.

That's another optimization. You could do sectors that are stacked on top of one another, but you'd lose performance and some of the simplicity in the renderer.
The bsp tree would need to be more
complex as well.

I don't think build supports rendering multiple stacked sectors at the same time either, because it quickly becomes much more complicated.

>>5409175
I love mazes though.

>>5419015
Build used a bunch of clever trickery for that kind of stuff, generally.

>>5419251
Yeah, but I'm pretty sure it didn't handle drawing 2+ rooms that were stacked on each other. In the general case you would need a span buffer for each column of the screen, which is a huge increase in complexity and memory usage. Voxlap actually kinda works that way, but runs on significantly more powerful hardware.

>>5419298
according to wikipedia it used another rendering pass, interesting hack

> Several Build engine games (namely Shadow Warrior, Blood, and Redneck Rampage) worked around this by displaying a "viewport" to another sector through an additional rendering pass.