/vr/ - Retro Games

>>5380528
>I just know you should, but I don't know why.

It's because they look better on CRT's

>>5380528
1. It looks shit on LCD.
2. It's lagfree on CRT
3. You play the game in the way it was intended to be played which adds to the experience.

Because they like playing older systems on that way.

>>5380528
It used to be that CRTs provided a superior experience, until recently. Now that emulation has advanced to the point of actually having less input lag than real hardware, playing on a computer and LCD is better. For example, on a CRT with a SNES you'll have over 50ms of input lag. On an LCD and computer you can cut that down quite a bit, to practically 0. Most people aren't aware of emulation's developments in the past couple years and still shill the CRT meme, hoping those get popular again.

>>5380546
>>5380547
>It's because they look better on CRT's
>You play the game in the way it was intended to be played which adds to the experience.
These have always been the reasons I used, but what is it that causes the games to lag on LCDs, and not CRTs?

>>5380528
Sega master system and play station light guns dont work on lcds.

Ot seems like nes can with some hacks

There's nothing wrong with playing them on flatscreens. I'm satisfied with my HD flatscreen, at least for now. They usually don't look bad at all on HD tvs. If you see someone say something like "looks like shit on HDTV" that's just autism talking for most good TVs.

If you insist on using a CRT then the input lag is a lot smaller and the graphics look a bit different and probably more "how the developers intended". Unless you have a HDTV known for bad input lag I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

>>5380528
CRTs can reproduce half pixels, which are very widely used for text and pixel art in old games. They also work correctly with lightgun games and have far lower input lag than an LCD does.
They also can reproduce 240p signals correctly, while LCDs commonly misinterpret the signal as 480i, creating all sorts of artifacts that were never there on CRTs.
>>5380563
interesting. Do lcds work with lightgun games now then?

>>5380569
LCD has to convert the analog signal to a digital one, upscale it to the television's resolution, then output the pixel values to the panel.
a CRT just lets the input signal drive the electron guns directly.

While it's possible to have a low quality (or even damaged) CRT, the reality is CRTs are the better display technology if you avoid using literal garbage. If you've ever seen a game being played on a PVM, you'd know, but you don't need a PVM to have a good quality screen.

We don't use CRTs anymore for modern stuff so, CRTs are outdated on things like modern inputs and resolution, but that doesn't matter for old consoles that were built with those old inputs in mind. The games are built to run on CRTs, and sometimes they take advantage old CRT technology, the waterfalls in Sonic are a common example because they only look correct on an old CRT.

>>5380563
Man what a car crash this post is, confusing all kinds of concepts here. The recent "less input lag than original hardware" is the lookahead method that is about controller input. It has absolutely nothing to do with display lag. Got it? That has nothing to do with it. Emulators have minimal/no display lag if they are outputting directly to the HDTV, because they do not have the lag of a component signal that has to be converted to HDTV fool.

>>5380602
>minimal/no display lag if they are outputting directly to the HDTV
incorrect. HDMI to HD-SDI to a bvm is faster than to an LCD. Pic rel.

>>5380592
gbelss

>>5380563

This is wrong.

Also the only emulator that exists that has less input lag than the original hardware is Dolphin for GCN and Wii.

Computers on an LCD cannot have 0 inputlag. Even if the LCD somehow instantaneously changed its pixels upon refresh, which they don't, you still have to wait a full frame for the framebuffer to refresh. The PC itself and the input device you're using also add lag.

The SNES, by default, has three frames (48ms) of input lag because there's one frame caused by the controller, one frame caused by processing the new frame, and another caused by waiting for your TV to refresh. We say three, frames, but this is actually rounding up. In practice the SNES can be programmed to increase controller polling rate (varies by game) and screen refresh almost never adds a full frame of lag, it averages around half.

>>5380528
These old games are designed with the hardware quirks and characteristics of CRTs in mind.

This general rule of using CRTs goes up to like gamecube, right? I don't know much about playstations, just a nintendo loser.

>>5380667
yeah pretty much. up to 6th gen, unless you find an elusive multiformat monitor, then you can do everything.

>>5380528
I wouldn't seek one out unless you consider retro games as a part of your identity. A lot of this is splitting hairs. The convenience of one screen can outweigh everything else.

>>5380528
Well, take a thumbnail sized image and stretch it to the height of your big lcd screen. How does it look? Without a scaler, that's part of the problem.

>>5380667

If you're playing a sixth gen game that doesn't support a resolution over 480i, I think I'd still prefer a good quality CRT.

>>5380636
>the only emulator that exists that has less input lag than the original hardware is Dolphin
Someone doesn't keep up with RetroArch's development

>>5380690
That technique mixes everything up to the point where you can have input before you're meant to be able to by the game, that's not how the game was tested or how you were meant to beat it. Regardless despite any point you may have, considering you are posting a cartoon picture of a girl you automatically fail the argument and at life and I hate you for it.

>>5380690

The run ahead feature doesn't reduce input lag, it creates a version of the game the dev didn't make, which seems to me to be against the idea of emulation.

Playing Street Fighter 2 where your inputs can be moved a frame over sounds awful, given that you need to be able to do a shoryuken on the correct frame in some situations.

>>5380705
Everyone knows it's a faux pas to post cartoon girls pictures when discussing children's toys.
Though all my life I've played on laggy emulators and never had a problem beating difficult games. I bet you've spent a fortune on OG hardware but can't even beat the second level in Super Ghouls and Ghosts.

>>5380716
That's really convenient, first you hate emulation because it makes controls too hard and now you hate because it makes them too easy

>>5380705
>>5380716
>Reducing lag is only good when I like it
>muh The Way It's Meant To Be Played™
>Any feature is against the emu bible
I get it, you rock a NES in 2019 and any feature like overclocking or removing sprite limits makes the games fake and unworthy of playing

>>5380728
>>5380724
>>5380721
holy shit, that's a lot of salt.

All that was said was that the game running at any speed other than what was intended on real hardware would make fighting games unplayable, given the dependence on frame accurate timing.

>>5380724

No, retard, I don't care which platform people play games on. Why would I say the idea of emulation is to accurately play old games if I'm trying to hate on a platform?

>>5380728

You've never played SF2 if you think the example I brought up has anything to do with how the game is meant to be played. I'm talking about being able to play the game in the first place.

>>5380721
>Everyone knows it's a faux pas to post cartoon girls pictures when discussing children's toys.
If you want to incorrectly label videogames as children's toys because it makes you feel better that's up to you but it doesn't make much sense for any way of looking at it.

>>5380528
Play quickmans stage without flash stop on lcd/ crt and see how you do. The latency of a lcd can make this a tough one to do. Also, try punch out when you get to the 3rd circuit and later. Timing is pretty tight on it.

And that’s the difference to me

>>5380738
>>5380740
Suggestion: turn run ahead off for Street Fighter 2.
Enable it on games that benefit from it. Or don't get jumpy when people who score lower on the spectrum do so.

>>5380760
still doesn't address monitor lag from the lcd.

>>5380760

Nobody jumped on you until you started screaming something about how you can beat games in lag and nobody else can beat them even without lag, greentext and anime reaction images and all.

Yes people can turn it off, they're saying they're going to. The whole conversation is about how retroarch can supposedly reduce lag to be something lower than the console equivalent and you have to turn that feature off in a game where input lag needs to be a close to 0 as possible.

>>5380582
Yes, you can use an Aimtrak or similar products to play lightgun games. It works better than old fashioned lightguns and if you get a big IR sensor bar, works at a greater distance with greater accuracy.
>>5380612
>>5380602
Both wrong, not taking into account overall lag, all components included.
>>5380636
Wrong. There are many other emulators with less input lag than original hardware, other than Dolphin. You're revealing your complete ignorance of current developments. Also wrong about the SNES, which has over 3 frames of lag, not under.

>>5380728
Are emufags even human?

>>5380772

SNES is 3 most of the time. A modern system running retroarch, even with a gsync monitor will still be at least that, almost always over.

>>5380765
>>5380769
My argument was >>5380690
That RetroArch can have lower lag than the original hardware. Sorry for the anime, geez.

>>5380528
here's a none-meme answer:
games back then were sometimes built with a crt in mind where a slightly blurry picture creates transparency through dithering, or even new colors entirely.

>>5380528
A lightgun game on a flat screen is fucked.

>>5380782
>>5380772
okay, so why not retroarch onto a crt. That'd be even lower input lag than onto an lcd.

>>5380563
>less input lag than real hardware
Get a load of this kid

Plus
>no display lag
>makes old pictures look great
>lightguns work
>old rhythm games work
>glow
>FWOOMF

Minus
>geometry and other tube problems
>big ones weigh hundreds of pounds
>nice ones are pricey
>after a certain point there's very little difference visually in a high quality signal on a professional display vs upscaled on a decent modern TV.

>lightgun
People actually want to play this shit?

>>5380804
>That'd be even lower input lag than onto an lcd
Wrong.
>why not retroarch onto a crt
Because you might not want a ton of blur, black lines, and curvature corroding the image? If you do, you can add on a filter to add those effects, and control how much of each is applied.
>>5380901
What a bad post.

>>5381019
>Wrong.
He is not wrong. CRTs have no input lag.

You should play on a PVM sometime. Old, low res video games look beautiful, better than on an LCD.

>>5381175
>He is not wrong.
Wrong.
>CRTs have no input lag.
Thank you for pointing out the obvious.
>You should play on a PVM sometime.
I have.
>Old, low res video games look beautiful, better than on an LCD.
Wrong.

>>5381184
Righto, so we agree that retroarch on a CRT would be the least lag and that's final.

Also you should play on a PVM sometime.

>>5381186
Wrong, going straight to a nice OLED has no lag. If you really like blur, black lines, and other degrading visual effects, you can achieve them using shaders and even fine tune them to your liking, in a more detailed manner than you can control the visual output of PVMs. PVMs also don't come in very large sizes, so they're unimpressive and disappointing, especially in group settings (if you have any friends, so this point for you is null) .

>>5381198
oled has lag though. Have to convert the signal from HDMI to a bitstream, has to go through the image processing pipeline and frame buffer and then get output to the panel.
Also scanlines cannot be accurately recreated, especially the variation in line width from changes in brightness across the line.
pvms/bvms go up to 32" which is good enough for retro games, which were made for small screens anyways.

>>5381209
Nice OLEDs have a "game mode" to compensate. With your logic, CRTs have lag as there are small processes and conversions that take place, interrupting the signal.
Scanlines can be accurately recreated, especially using oversampling. 32" is medium size but not big and impressive.

>>5381212
>Nice OLEDs have a "game mode" to compensate.
They have lag.

>>5381212
>With your logic, CRTs have lag as there are small processes and conversions that take place
these are analog conversions, and are all bypassed by passing an rgb signal to the monitor. Then all the electronics are just controlling beam landing not the beam intensity itself, so still 0 input lag.

OLEDs still use frame buffers and processing pipelines. HDMI is not the format the panel will understand, and doing the conversion is far more complex than analog amplification, like with CRTs.

I highly doubt that any fixed pixel display could recreate the variation in line width as shown.

also OLEDs can't flicker the image they're displaying, only sample and hold, leading to poorer rendition of motion.

>>5381228
Not only can software recreate variations in line width and spacing, but it can be fine-tuned at the user's discretion. Flickering can likewise be emulated and fine-tuned. You CRT users will claim anything to defend your belongings, for some reason, almost like a religious cultist.

>>5381231
lol, ceded the point on input lag i guess.

Also show me a photo of the variations in line width and spacing. I doubt any monitor can do it.

And how is your 60hz OLED tv going to emulate flicker?

>>5381236
The monitor doesn't produce line details, the software does it and the monitor reproduces it. Flicker is reproducible as well, but like scanlines, is a visually degrading meme no one should want. As for input lag, high quality OLEDs can achieve less "lag" than CRTs. Remember, even analog conversions have tiny amounts of lag.

>>5381238
analog conversion has no lag. It's literally a single transistor.
In that case, OLED tvs will have orders of magnitude more lag due to the thousands of transistors every bit will pass through to do the digital conversion from HDMI to a bitstream for the panel.
Also there's no way an OLED television will *ever* achieve lower input latency than a CRT. It's literally not possible.
Show me a screenshot of the software producing variation in scanline width then, otherwise I'm calling bs.
And tell me how your 60hz oled panel is going to reproduce 60hz flicker.

>>5380924
People do. Unfortunately wagglebabies like you will never understand how great light gun games can be.

>>5381198
>OLED has no lag
kids. lol

>>5381198
Nah I own an LG OLED which I use it a lot for classic gaming and it does have input lag. It's pretty good for a modern TV at 21 ms but it's still not CRT level. Basically works for everything but rhythm games.

>>5380528
Because games look and perform a lot better on them.

>>5380612
>BVM
You're not supposed to play low res games on monitors made for professional video editing. They look like garbage when displayed on such sharp screens. They're made to bring out all the problems and imperfections.

>>5380528
Mostly convenience sake. I don't think it makes games look particularly better or worse as long as you use decent cables.

>>5380528
Everybody talking about low latency, but equally important is low persistence (low sample-and-hold blur). If the display doesn't flicker then 60fps motion will always look like blurry shit.

In the case of lower framerates, it will look like shit no matter what, so you might as well use a sample-and-hold display, and in the case of higher framerates the blur might be tolerable, but basically every /vr/ game worth playing runs at 60fps, so display persistence matters.

>>5380563
based LCDfag. he plays the vidya and ignores superficial bullshit

>>5380924
Fuck you

>>5380563
>emulation
>>5380772
>emulators
>>5380782
>RetroArch
>>5380804
>retroarch

>>5380528
>I just know you should, but I don't know why.

They look good. They are more in line with developer's art intentions (this sounds retarded typing it out and is a meme, but it is true). Great black levels. Lag free.

It's how we played them and looks and feels more nostalgic.

>>5380683
This.

Note this anon isn't saying you can't get a good image on a modern screen, just that you need a good scaler (and cables, and usually modwork) or an hdmi outputting console/computer.

Basically you can't expect your modern tv to process and upscale an image at a speed faster than can be measured. You either have to have a good fast upscaler or an hdmi console/computer or output 1080 from something like a ps3.

One example of how devs could make use of the inherent characteristics of CRT.

>>5382362
I like how it looks on my d24.
>>5382454
lol crts look leaps and bounds better than lcds do especially for original hardware.
>>5382794
upscaled LCDs still can't recreate half pixels properly, pic rel.

>>5380528
To make your original retro console look good on a modern tv would probably require an HDMI mod or a framemeister, neither of which are very cheap to get. Just hooking it up using av cables makes it look like crap and my flatscreen has no option to fix the aspect ratio to 4:3, making it too stretched out.

>>5382810
Well the top is clearly a compressed jpeg. And from normal viewing distance it's not that different

>>5382845
it is, though. From 2 desk distance with a 20" screen it's a very clear difference.
Here's a png screencap. Text is still mangled to shit since LCDs can't display the half pixels right.

>>5382852
Looks fine to me. I own an OSSC and I usually prefer using that over using the CRTs I have. Adding scanlines can be nice-ish too but I don't think they make that significant of a difference.

>>5382858
I guess we just have differing tastes then. I prefer the text to look the way the devs intended and you prefer a less accurate one.

>>5382858
>Looks fine to me.
It must be nice to be able to take off your glasses and have an LCD look like a CRT. There is nothing wrong with your "acceptance" of the inferior quality, so long as you are happy with it.

>>5380528
Because scaling is shit on modern tvs. If you use an external scaling it should be fine, but it's usually just worth it to get a decent CRT instead.

>>5380528
round pixels (what most media worked with till 6th gen) and scanlines (which help with the low resolution)

>>5380528
Because anon loves to repeat memes from 2005 when HDTVs had awful scalers, even though they've improved considerably on recent models.

Also, the obvious that CRTs are old and the tubes wear down with use like tire treads.

>>5382701
I've been into emulation before gen z was conceived and now I can jerk off to zoomer chicks with no remorse and I like RetroArch

>>5384185
Why are millennials so obsessed with generations?

>>5384287
Because they're the worst one

>>5384132
A non problem that I can fix easily.

>>5384604
Zoooom zoooooom kiddo half of you asshats need to be forcefully fucked back and aborted.

>>5384643
Projecting pretty hard there sport

>>5380528
>>5380528
Dude do you have friends, a gf, or hope to have any in the future? Don't poison your life by buying a huge CRT under the impression that it will give you a better experience. As others have already said it's probably not even a better experience. You could literally end up a social pariah for listening to the various cave dwellers on this board. Emulate and enjoy. Don't bring guests over and shock them with a shelf fill half assed filled with the easiest to obtain retro cartridges and consoles hooked up to a ear piercing CRT and it's "totally inaudible" din (to anyone over the age of 30). I'm a loser by all metrics and I wouldn't hang around you if you did.

>>5384912
>he emulates instead of just using flash carts on real hardware
anon, not everyone with crts and consoles is also into dropping thousands on 1's and 0's.