/vr/ - Retro Games

>>5343854
Well this is the dumbest thing I read in a while. Here why dont you go to the doom general and discuss your concerns there, ok?

the original doom was a fucking snore fest. They tried to make the game not completely brain dead in 2.

>>5343993
Generals kill imageboards.
>>5343998
2 is as brain dead as it gets, every room is a big open rspace that you run circles around and do nothing else, while the first game has a careful flow and momentum and also a bit more of an ammo conservation exercise on higher difficulties (though neither leans into that all that hard).

>>5343998
Taste my dick. Or cock.

>>5344005
>Generals kill imageboards
no bud I think shitposting does. People would have replied if this all was posted in the general

>>5344015
A dead thread is better than contributing to a general.

>>5344005
>>5344009
Just gun down pathetic and weak enemies with the shit loads of ammo i got. Oh No! there are 2 enemies that can take a couple of hits and not die, good thing they can only throw 1 single projectile thats completely non threatening.

There is not a single fight in the original doom that warrants the power of either the plasma gun or bfg. babies first fps just puts me to sleep.

>>5344020
I didn't say it was hard, but it certainly takes more thought than Doom 2, where the best option is always to run in circles and press the mouse button if you don't just want to run through.

>>5344019

1 bored me cause a lot of it was focused on finding colored keys and navigating mazes. Felt almost like a zelda game.

If I basically just want fps bullet hell will I enjoy Doom 2?

>>5344040
Ask the general. Nothing but fools in here

>>5343854
I can't think of a single opinion that's more pleb than people who think Doom 1 is better than Doom 2.

>>5344097
The level design is much better though.

>>5344097
How about thinking Doom II is better than Doom?

>>5344109
>has never played multiplayer
Pity

>>5344097
Doom 1 for 32x is better than Doom 2

>>5344020
>plasma gun
Cacodemon

>bfg
Baron of Hell, SMM, Cyberdemon

Buttblasted OP ftl

>>5344109
You're the kind of hopeless smallminded casual who thinks the first Hotline Miami is best because it's simpler and easier.

>>5344403
Are you implying Doom 2 is a more complex game? The gameplay is heavily simplified by the levels being much more open, to the point where the player never has to think of them during combat. It's really unfortunate that fun additions like the super shotgun are wasted on such a repetitive and mindless game...Doom was already far from "cerebral," they didn't have to dumb it down more.

>>5343854
Uh no.

>>5343854
It's easily better than Ultimate Doom. The Doom II is bad meme is retarded.

>MUH CITY LEVELS
I'd say the only downright bad levels in Doom II are The Factory, The Citadel and Chasm. Mediocre levels are Suburbs and Courtyard but whatever, they can be done very quickly and it's still not boring fighting all the monsters at once. Apart from that the maps range from decent to great (especially for the standards at the time). Doom II's gameplay is far superior and more varied with the added bestiary, scale and ability to fight far more monsters at once. The only thing it lacks is it isn't as pretty/atmospheric, but big fucking deal. Gameplay is more important than atmosphere for action based games, and it's not like Doom is fucking Silent Hill.

Now let's look at Ultimate Doom. It has a good first episode because of interesting level design and it's pretty (for '93), I'll give it that. This episode also has a great flow, but ultimately it's extremely brain dead gameplay wise. Doom's second episode is an absolute abortion of boredom. Really the only reason it's somewhat fun is because you get berserk and can go ham with the melee but apart from that holy shit it sucks. Episode 3 is a pile of shit, too. The hell theme is nice, but fuck me again the gameplay is brain dead. The fourth episode is much better than 2&3 but still not anywhere near as good as the second game. I'd say Sever the wicked, Unto the Cruel and Against Thee Wickedly are the best maps and the only ones I'd say are truly "good" from Doom 1.

Ultimate Doom does not reach anywhere near the heights that Doom II reaches. Icon of Sin, Living End, Spirit World, Monster Condo, Abandoned Mines, Bloodfalls, Catacombs, Tenements, Industrial Zone, Inmost Dens, O of Destruction, Refueling Base, The Pit, Dead Simple, etc, in what fucking alt dimensions does Ultimate Doom have better maps than these? Levels 1-6 are also fantastic and are better than Doom's E1.

>>5344040
>1 bored me cause a lot of it was focused on finding colored keys and navigating mazes. Felt almost like a zelda game.

That's literally what these games are. Maze based exploration games where you fight the map in a broad sense, rahter than individual enemies. Maps are big puzzles you solve.

>>5344097
I completely agree with you. Fuck me, the 8 year old me agreed with you. I always found Doom 1 boring, even long before I had pubes.

>>5344109
It really isn't. Doom 1 has a bad habit of making completely useless sections of its mazes that you have no reason to traverse to beat the map (without even using speedrun tricks) unless you're going for 100% kills. And they're not small sections, we're talking the vast majority of a map e.g. something like Containment Area. Doom II did it in places, too, but it's not nearly as prevalent as it is in Doom 1. You don't see this shit being done in modern map design or later ID games because it's a bad relic of times gone past. I don't enjoy map sections without "purpose", I call it "fluff" myself, and Doom 1 is full of it.

>>5344686
>I don't enjoy map sections without "purpose", I call it "fluff" myself, and Doom 1 is full of it.

Nice low IQ opinion. You want straight forward levels that you can't get lost in. Exploration means having "useless" areas.

>>5344694
I don't get lost in Doom 1 lol. If you think that's what this is about it's more a reflection on you.

>>5344686
>e.g. something like Containment Area
don't we have a Containment Area for Doom discussion

>>5344698
We do indeed but babs gonna bab.

>>5344005
>>5343854
>>5344040
>>5344097
>>5344159
>>5344686

Good Doom 2 levels:

Underhalls
The Waste Tunnels
The Crusher
Dead Simple
Circle of Death
Industrial Zone
Monster Condo
The Spirit World
The Living End

>>5344652
Interesting.

>>5345485
In general McGees maps were pretty strong and very nice in design - as in coherent/stylish.
It's a pity that Romero provided so little content due to to other duties.
Petersons Map01 is the perfect starter albeit a bit too short for my liking. I really dig the look and the outside area which looks quite dandy for a Sandy level.

>>5344686
ok I really like stuff like the living end in doom 2, but I can play all the way through Doom 1 without getting bored (except for a couple levels), but I can barely get past the first third of Doom 2 without just getting tired of it and shutting it off.

it needed more romero maps

The problem with Doom 2 is not the amount of enemies. There are many user maps that use way more enemies yet are still fun to play. The problem with Doom 2 is the gimmicky level design. Like "dude, what if the player had to navigate a catwalk while being attacked by lost souls!". Yeah, that's a unique premise, but it's not actually fun to play.

>>5345639
>it needed more romero maps
Romero never really evolved into a Doom II leveldesigner. During his years, he only created 5 Archviles (albeit the very first was his on Map11), 11 Revenants, 6 Arachnotrons and 7 Mancubi.

Even to this day, he builds his maps for Doom I, not for Doom II. His style doesn't fit Doom II honestly, it needs a different kind of pace and playstyle.

>>5345830
that's why doom 2 sucks (^:

>>5343998
>the original doom was a fucking snore fest.
>t. only played Doom 1 on GZDoom or Zandronum

>>5343854
Doom was essentially an example of perfect game design. We could have a whole thread of just listing the things Doom did right that other games should learn from.

2 just lacked that perfection. It's an incredibly great game -- an all-time classic -- but it never had the "every single element is literally flawless at all times" level of perfection that the original did. Every thing that they did even slightly differently (except for adding the Super Shotgun, which is utterly flawless) made the game SLIGHTLY worse than the original.

>>5346038
>(except for adding the Super Shotgun, which is utterly flawless)

It trivializes all the smaller enemies, and makes the rocket launcher useless. SS is a RL with huge amount of ammo, and zero draw back. All D2 and later version is just use the SS in all situations because why not?

>>5346038
Maybe in your single-player only bubble. Again, try playing through Doom in multiplayer, then move onto Doom II.

>>5346049
Unless it's a group of Zombiemen or Imps, the Super Shotgun won't be killing mobs fast enough before you get pasted between shots, and it doesn't do much against small enemies due to the really wide spread. Easier to just grab the chaingun or switch to the normal shotgun.

The SS is best on single enemies that you can get up close and hit with the whole blast, like Cacos, Pinkies, and Mancubi.

>>5346078
Not necessarily. It's also more ammo-efficient. You do the dmg output of 3 shells while only using 2. So if you have a room full of dweebs and only shotgun weapons, might as well wax as many as possible with the SSG.

>>5346084
I play Ultra-Violence. Takes at least two shots to kill just a part of a horde of Imps, but at least they're not hard to dodge. Against anything with hitscan (Shotgunners and especially Chaingunners), by the time you reload, you've already had your ass carved up.

The damage per hit is just too impractical for multiple targets. I would just as soon whip out the chaingun or plasma rifle for speed and efficiency.

>>5346108
Doesn't sound like a shotgun only situation
SSG > shotty

>>5346071
>implying doom 2 DM is balanced
I mean it's kind of fun, but 90% of the gameplay is just spamming SSG, it's not even close to as well balanced as the classic arena shooters.

>>5344040
Try Serious Sam

>>5346154
>multiplayer is Deathmatch only
Yeah we're starting to see the problem here

>>5346071
No one said anything about multiplayer, dumbass. Or mods, for that matter, but following that logic you could say that "Doom II is better because of mods".

>>5346223
>an official gamemode isn't a function of how you should judge level design
What a waste of a post.

>>5346163
yeah serious sam is basically made for retards

>>5346193
Okay, so if your point was about coop not DM, why say "multiplayer" rather than coop?

>>5346392
I was talking about both DM and co op, since those are both considered when taking level design into consideration. Thread is going to hell anyway.

>>5344469
>It's really unfortunate that fun additions like the super shotgun are wasted on such a repetitive and mindless game...
Ever heard of wads?

>>5345928
>the sourceport indicates if the game is a snorefest or not
Even id knew it hence why Quake is 50 times better than Doom in every single way.

>>5344005
>every room is a big open rspace that you run circles around and do nothing else
Complete bullshit, Doom 2 has tighter enemy encounters than Doom 1, like map08 in its entirety where you're always surrounded by enemies and can barely move, or The Chasm where you're always on a literal thin fucking line below you so your mobility is several affected. Or Gotcha where it's mostly corridors and the only "open" area is one where a spiderdemon's hitscan says fuck you to your dodging and have to make it infight with a cyberdemon, when did doom 1 do anything that fun? Oh wait it was too busy making weird mazes and teleport tediousness in E3. Just because Doom 2 has Downtown doesn't mean that every map and more importantly every enemy encounter is in a big area (and even then in big areas there tend to be hitscanners like the spiderdemons in map28), even suburbs itself has tight enemy encounters in small rooms despite the large outside where the only thing you'll be fighting in the latter are snipers on windows.

>>5344019
>>5344005
>Generals kill imageboards.
>the cool kids at /v/ said generals are bad by default so I'm gonna repeat them without actually knowing the reason why
Psst, the reason generals on /vg/ are hated is because they tend to have a plethora of tripfags circlejerking each other. /doom/ has no such thing and in fact every single thread is the opposite of a circlejerk since people are throwing shit at each other for half the thread.

>>5347710
spiderdemons aren't hitscanners

>>5348234
>>5347710
i guess you mean the spider mastermind, nvm

>>5347084
Yeah, there are good ones. But they are not Doom II and do not reflect upon the level design of Doom II.

>>5347715
I have literally never used /v/ for more than 5 minutes. Generals are bad because it defeats the purpose of being on an imageboard in the first place and completely break how bumps work.

Why did hotpockets autosage every fps thread except this one?

>>5343854
just wait until you get to final doom
>dude what if like
>*hits bong*
>what if like, you went into a room, and like, there's just like sixty barons in there man
>and there's like a cabinet full of revenants directly behind you dude
>and like, the whole game is just that over and over
>wouldn't that be like so epic dude

>>5349557
it's just skill creep. How do you keep veterans interested? Having larger/more detailed maps would have sufficed but hey, throwing enemies at the player takes seconds and accomplishes the same thing albeit at an inferior experience

why you retards circlejerk over doom so much?
why you hate non doom fps?

>>5344020
>>5344005
>>5343854
You should stop playing on babies first difficulty and play on Ultra Violence.

>>5344652
You're responding to a meming angry zoomer, dude. Serious answers aren't necessary.

>>5344686
>I don't enjoy map sections without "purpose", I call it "fluff" myself, and Doom 1 is full of it.

It's called "secrets" you flaming autist.

>and doom 1 is full of it
Yea, right. If you want extra ammo or extra health, or to find secret areas that include weapons before you're supposed to get them, then you go to explore those areas, you complete and utter incompetent dipshit. The reason it's a "relic" is because retards like you that don't understand good game design and like nothing but straight forward corridors that lead you right to the end of the level, ignoring the fact that some of those secret areas present alternative routes through the level, and access to secret levels.

>YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO TRAVERSE THOSE AREAS!
>unless, well, you go for 100% kills
You just gave a reason you brain-tumor of a human being.

You can shut your retard faggot mouth now and stop sucking off /vr/ for the (You)'s you dumb zoomer.

>>5349464
He wanted to make an example of this zoomer-tumor.

>>5345830
>His style doesn't fit Doom II honestly, it needs a different kind of pace and playstyle.

>Circle of Death
>Tenements
>Abandoned Mines
>Living End
>Industrial Zones
All these maps are amazing and are among the very best of Doom 2. His mapping style for this game was great. These maps shit over everything in the original. Gotcha has its moments, too, and is not a bad map.

>>5346038
>Doom was essentially an example of perfect game design.
Not really. Majority of the maps were shit, like E2&3. The random damage variable was also stupid (not talking about bullet spread RNG, I'm talking about the random damage of the actual hits). The shotgun is also a weak bitch and is a very overrated weapon. Really the only reason you use that piece of shit is because there's abundant ammo for it. If chaingun had the same amount you'd use SG next to never. It also comes with disgusting input lag, something that gives it a really gross feel, and this lag was never featured in id games again after Final Doom because they knew it sucked. The bestiary of Doom 1 is also boring and all the enemies are pretty much impotent on UV and below.
>Every thing that they did even slightly differently (except for adding the Super Shotgun, which is utterly flawless) made the game SLIGHTLY worse than the original.
No lol. Doom II's bestiary is the best bestiary any FPS ever had, and it's the reason why we have the great custom mapsets that we have today. I doubt people would still be making as many custom mapsets today if we were stuck with the gameplay dynamic limitations of the original's roster.

>>5346049
>It trivializes all the smaller enemies
Those enemies are trivial, period. Who the fuck had trouble with Doom 1's smaller enemies (or large for that matter)? Literally point your chaingun in their general direction and shoot.
>SSG makes rocket launcher useless
RL very much still has its place as its far more effective from range than SSG and shoots much faster.

>>5350015
Upload a video of you playing it on Ultra Violence. I'd love to see this in person.

>>5350000
First of all calm down. Second, who the fuck ever runs out of ammo or has health issues in Doom? You must be absolutely awful if you need to rely on secrets for those. And secrets can very much still exist in general areas of the map you actually have to visit to beat the map so you've given a total non-argument.
>nothing but straight forward corridors
I don't get lost in Doom lol.
> and access to secret levels.
Well then that area of the map would actually HAVE "purpose", would it not? When I replay Doom there are so many sections of maps I don't bother visiting because I absolutely don't have to, that's why I call it fluff, and that's my problem with it. They're just shitty sections of the map I have no desire to visit.

>>5350031
A UV video of what? Doom 1 or 2?

>>5350031
Well if you're talking about Ultimate Doom, I did actually put up a full deathless longplay just the other day. Feel free to nitpick every detail of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy5uR74XFUM

I can't also make a Doom II one if you want.

>>5350000
You might want to watch the above video, too, and see how much trouble I have with navigating Doom 1.

>>5350031
Well if you're talking about Ultimate Doom, I did actually put up a full deathless longplay just the other day. Feel free to nitpick every detail of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy5uR74XFUM [Embed]

I can also make a Doom II one if you want.

>>5350000
You might want to watch the above video, too, and see how much trouble I have with navigating Doom 1.

>>5350058
>Second, who the fuck ever runs out of ammo or has health issues in Doom? You must be absolutely awful if you need to rely on secrets for those. And secrets can very much still exist in general areas of the map you actually have to visit to beat the map so you've given a total non-argument.
This is the most retarded argument I've ever seen. I said "IF" you need them, which on Nightmare you absolutely will, unless you're doing a speedrun, and if you've never played Doom before, then you'll like waste a lot of ammo.

Secondly, the areas are fun to explore, if not because they present you with more items, the fact that it increases the challenge of the level, even if only slightly.

>I don't get lost in Doom lol.
Nice strawman, zoomer-tumor.

>Well then that area of the map would actually HAVE "purpose", would it not?
Yes, it would, DIPSHIT.

>When I replay Doom there are so many sections of maps I don't bother visiting because I absolutely don't have to
Good for you.

>that's why I call it fluff
And that's why I called you a retarded cock sucking faggot. See, we both have stupid names for dumb shit.

>They're just shitty sections of the map I have no desire to visit.
Cool. And Overwatch is a game that I don't care to play at all. Guess that makes the whole thing fluff, huh?

>>5350080
I think you need to see a psychiatrist.

>>5350075
>Feel free to nitpick every detail of it
Don't have to. You having played something so much that you're familiarity with it makes it easy has nothing to do with the design of the actual game, seeing as it's coming from a personal aspect of you having become so adept at playing it. If anything, it just proves everyone's point in this thread about how well designed the game is. You're attunement to it proves to everyone how much you enjoy it that you're willing to upload videos of it and memorize the level layouts and have self-imposed challenges. It's kind of endearing to Doom actually. I'm glad you love it so much.

>and see how much trouble I have with navigating Doom 1.
How about Doom II master levels or TNT? Care to do a full ultra violence deathless longplay through those? I'd love to watch that.

>>5350083
If me deconstructing your logic makes you think I'm irrational, that's a sign of narcissism. You should see a therapist pretty soon.

>>5350087
I mean, first time I beat the game I was 8 years old, but it was easy back then, too, even keyboard only. That's why I'm so familiar with it. I always preferred Doom II (and the other contemporary FPS's) leaps and bounds over Doom 1 though. Actually as a kid I thought Quake was boring, but as an adult it ended up becoming probably my favourite one.

>>5350087
>How about Doom II master levels or TNT?
I'm not really a fan of those desu... really don't like master levels. TNT has a really good first half, but every time I've tried returning to it I just get bored around the halfway point. I can do Plutonia some time though if you like.

>>5350094
I prefer Doom 1 because of its more consistent theming of its levels throughout each episode. Each level in Doom 1 feels like an abstract representation of what it's supposed to be. I really like Slough of Despair and Mt Erebus in Episode 3.

The way Episode 1 flows is great and has nice atmosphere, and Episode 4 is also great the whole way through. I would say Episode 2 is by far the weakest entry.

>>5350015
Abandoned Mines is a weaker remake of Tenements, and Gotcha is shit. Even Tenements gets bad by the pointless maze in the end.

But I agree, Romero is good. Petersen and McGee (not to mention the TNT/ML hacks later) are all hacks in comparison.

For outstanding leveldesign, you need to play Plutonia or NRFTL though.

>>5346370
>>yeah serious sam is basically made for retards
just like doom

>>5350135
>Plutonia level design
Yo what's that one horrible one that's all Archviles in a giant rat maze? The Hunted?
>the fucking end theme though

>>5350302
doom has decent level design though
serious sam is just giant arenas where you shoot a hundred guys and move onto the next arena

>>5351172
ok retard

>>5350080
Pretty sure he means your gif too
You might want to get out of that basement and get some help

Doom 1 is a great game.

But I have to agree that E3 has some very retard Teleport segments.

I have more fun with Doom II.

But to be honest the full powerlevels of Doom II bestiary are released in the endless WADs of the community.

I would like to play a redesign of all 4 episodes of Ultimate Doom but with the Bestiary of Hell on Earth.

>>5353919

Also Quake 1 on Nightmare is one of best FPS experiences ever.

>>5353196
If so, he sounds like a mentally ill safe-space libtard democrap that needs to take a walk out in the real world and know that fiction isn't real so it's fine to laugh at it.

Jesus, the mental degradation of society is just un-fucking-believable. Probably why I'm engaged and he mostly likely isn't.

>>5355306