/vr/ - Retro Games

No one says that.
Now get out.

>arcade port of DOA1 never
sadness

>>5314368
See>>5314386

>>5314368
Easier to code for means better performance in 90% of cases.

"More powerful" is generally not a meaningful debate with competing retro consoles because they weren't simply Intel-based PCs in a box.

>>5314368
PS1 version has more content, and they added Ayane

>>5314432
Dead or Alive on Saturn is the way to go. Even Itagaki says so.

Sony's BBC was too irresistible for publishers, so even with games being downgraded to work on their machines, the Sony versions were the best overall versions since they made the most profit. Contrary to what you think, most companies only care about how much money they make and not the quality of the game, otherwise Resident Evil 4 would've stayed on the GameCube.

>>5314439
>>5314432
The extra content is nice but the presentation on the PS1 version just doesn't feel as nice. Stages are worse, music is worse and fuck that goddamn tiny life bar.

>>5314467
faggot

>>5314368
It wasn't.
It also wasn't a pain in the ass to program for and didn't have two branches of the same company trying to piss on each other.

Wasn't the Playstation version completely different from the original one? Saturn game was based on the Model 2 game, while this one was an "upgrade" based on Playstation hardware.
Between this and the mess with the initial DOA 2 release on PS2, you've got to wonder what was the deal with Tecmo and Sony at that time. This and Itadaki's strange boner for the Xbox despite it being an obvious moneysink in Japan.

>>5314432
>>5314468
PS1 port of Dead or Alive is not even the same game at all. It's like the difference between Street Fighter: The Movie on the arcade and the same on PS1 and Saturn.

>>5314368
Then you pick the biggest Sega fanboy ever as an example

>>5314546
If anything, Itagaki is an Xbox/Nintendo fanboy

The PSX cant do 2D. So it doesn't even remotely compare to the Saturn.

>>5314562
Maybe after Sega died. Ninja Gayden was going to be on Dreamcast first.

I'm a huge Sega fanboy, but PS1 was better architecture.

Saturn wasn't truly meant for 3d. They were expecting rotating tiles like the airship in FF6. That's why so many tricks were used to make the Panzer Dragoon Trilogy work.

The devs who pulled it off really ought to be commended.

>>5314368
nice and all but doa was jp only on saturn and da shiat on xbox what nao?

>>5314505
As someone who's played all the different versions, I'd say this: the Saturn version is an update of the arcade version (there are differences, not just graphically), the ps1 version got updated even more from the saturn version and changed all of the graphics around so as to work within the ps1's "high res" mode. Then that version was updated even more (and cut down) and re-released in the arcades as Dead or Alive ++. That version plays more like Dead or Alive 2 despite still having one button easy counters.

>>5314368
Saturn was plenty powerful it just had too redpilled of an arch for most developers

>>5314368
saturn is a doa 1 arcade port. the 3d backgrounds became 2d and the characters got new lower poly models. ps1 is a remake with new stages/music plus bass/ayane and a shitload of new outfits.

they then took the ps1 version back to arcades (doa++) and changed the stages/music again, plus added some new arcade-only outfits.
-the first arcade version looks the best
-the ps1 version has the most content
-the second arcade version has the best gameplay

>>5314792
Even the series creator favors the Saturn port...PS1 brainlets eternally BTFO'd

>>5314386

Yeah they do and it is true. It shows.

>>5314801
take your shit memes and creator cock gargling back to >>>/v/

>Saturn - 28MHz
>Playstation - 33MHz

who retordad

>>5314808
Shows you don't understand anything about this, GTFO kid

>>5314716
Does red polled mean retarded.
I grew up with a saturn so I love that giant black box. But it is fucking retarded at the same time.

>>5314812

If you think Saturn is more powerful just because you did the math on its dual CPUs, please do show us some actual examples. All multiplat shit on both systems are superior on PS1, with the exception of some 2D games.

>>5314850
piss off sony drone :^)

>>5314854

That is one hell of an example. I stand corrected.

>>5314850
>Thunder Force V
>Resident Evil
>Tomb Raider
>Dead or Alive
>Grandia

>>5314858
Go play on the freeway.

>>5314861
>RE better on Saturn
wut

>>5314861
Thunder Force V runs better on PS1
RE looks better on PS1
Tomb Raider looks and runs better on PS1
Debatable
Only good example

>>5314875
Tomb Raider has a higher draw distance and better textures on the Saturn, particularly noticeable in the water. It was after all the lead development platform. Keep smoking that Sony cock.

>>5314875
Nope

>>5314808
>Saturn - (28*2)MHz
>Playstation - 33MHz
fixed

>>5314808
>cpu clock cycles are the only piece that matters in console hardware

who retordad

>>5314875
>Thunder Force V runs better on PS1

On real hardware? I noticed that there is a little more slowdown in the PS1 game. Also the PS1 title lacks some parallax, background layers and has an issue with distorted textures in areas.

>>5314396
Well, I have the Xbox version.

>>5314919
Strange, it's the Saturn version that's supposed to have more slowdowns.

>the PS2 was more powerful than the Sega Dreamca-

>>5314368
If that's meant to be your shining example of Saturn looking better then you're just confirming playstation superiority. You can clearly see both blockiness and warpiness on the Saturn. Look around Kasumi's waist/pussy, wtf is going on there in the Saturn one?! Everything in the video looks better on playstation except maybe Kasumi's face which might be the light.

>>5314368 (OP)
If that's meant to be your shining example of Saturn looking better then you're just confirming playstation superiority. You can clearly see both blockiness and warpiness on the Saturn. Look around Kasumi's waist/pussy, wtf is going on there in the Saturn one?! Everything in that pic looks better on playstation except maybe Kasumi's face which might be the light.

>>5315019
The image on the right looks unfinished. Models lack detail.

>>5314792
The Saturn version is updated from the arcade version, not just a port. Besides costumes, movesets were updated. I remember going from the Xbox version to arcade version via Model 2 emulator and wonder why some of the attacks didn't work.

>>5314881
Alot of character models on the saturn ended up looking worse because the system couldn't use triangles and the devs couldn't come up with decent solution other than to just texture the stuff that's supposed to be a triangle in an odd fashion. Then there's some lack of polish towards the end of the game that the ps1 version didn't suffer from, like a puzzle room in Atlantis not functioning correctly or the (for lack of graphics programming knowledge) graphics function that creates the 2d backdrops for the various menus and inventory capture background breaking around the middle of The Great Pyramid, displaying a blue screen for every menu until the machine is reset. One more nitpick is it's a bit too dark and the in game gamma function doesn't alleviate the issue. Other than those problems, some slowdown here and there, and lesser quality sfx, it's pretty decent.

>>5315017
Some stages had more complex geometry, but the real problem with the ps2 version was it was bottle-necked by a small framebuffer size from what I heard.

>>5315183

That's because of the ps1's "high res" mode. The game displays in 512x480 at 60fps which limits texture size and quality, which is what I heard when reading about the developement of the first Crash Bandicoot somewhere.

>>5315235
>That's because of the ps1's "high res" mode. The game displays in 512x480 at 60fps which limits texture size and quality, which is what I heard when reading about the developement of the first Crash Bandicoot somewhere.


The Saturn DOA runs in the systems high resolution 704x480 interlaced mode at 60fps, just like Virtua Fighter 2 and a few other games did. Both these games ran in their respective high resolution modes for each console.

Yeah, the models look chunkier, and the PS1 models seem to have a little more polygons. But the Saturn game is rendered with quads, which are basically four sided 3D sprites, so the modeling is very different. There is some clipping going on with the Saturn side.

I prefer the environments in the Saturn game too. They are 2D parallax versions of the Model 2 arcade game's environments, but they still look way more interesting than the bland ones in the PS1 game. The PS1 game does have more content, though. But the Saturn game is like tweaked version of the arcade game, gameplay and content wise.

>>5315235
The real problem with the PS2 version is it was a hack job. Original release was so bad Tecmo released an updated version 6 months later.

>>5314368
They were better at different things
The saturn with ram carts was better at displaying big sprite pixels.

The PlayStation was better atvrendsring 3-d

>>5314850
Powerslave/Exhumed.

>>5314792
>doa
>gameplay
pick one

>>5316330
This is probably hard for people brainwashed by /v/ to believe, but Dead Or Alive is actually very fun as a fighting game. Especially with friends.

>>5316338
>Especially with friends
your hand doesn't count

>>5314861
>Thunder Force V
better on Saturn
>Resident Evil
better on PS1
>Tomb Raider
better on PS1
>Dead or Alive
too many differences between the two versions to make a direct comparison
>Grandia
better on Saturn

>>5316330
You can't possibly be so stupid to think DoA triangle system isn't good or even great. If tecmo pumped money into tournaments again, it would be right next to the others at pro level events.

Shit even smash was able to make it to tournaments with push from Nintendo. The least fighting game out there. Might have just chosen Barbarian or Power Stone at that point.

>>5314850
You should try and do research for yourself instead of repeating what others tell you. You now are getting a bunch of answers you will just forget and later claim some other retarded shit.

>>5314368
WTF bros, how is the PS1 supposed to win against oval shadows and the lack of goraud shading?

>>5314564
>The PSX cant do 2D.

Just as it can't do 3D, turns out people were all allucinating and didn't actually play anything.

>>5314808
So a 6+ year old amd 9590 at 5.7ghz is mostly confirmed better than almost all processors released since then.

Why did we ever stop buying that one?

>>5316380
requires a nuclear reactor to run and liquid nitrogen to cool. Same reason no one buys the 9900k

>>5316385
Paying a few more pennies a day shouldn't be an issue, seriously. Even in my area with it at 30c/KWh. Also, who doesn't have their shit water cooled?

Saturnfags are graphics whore who thought?

>>5316330
the current games are super bad, but doa 1 is decent gameplay-wise. counter holds do half the damage of a normal throw, so they fit in well without being a major mechanic. you cant mash out of stagger either, and of course you can't counter hold out of stagger.

>>5316365
Pray tell why Resident Evil is better on PS1

you have to be a low iq contrarian to defend the saturn
oh wait this is /vr/ where no one has good taste in retro games.

>>5316313

That's not fair. The Saturn version is even better than the PC.

>>5316578
I miss the days of DOA 1 and 2

>>5316593
He can't, because it isn't.

Saturn will always be considered the superior port, plus extra content.

>>5316725
Isn't the DS port possibly the best version besides the REmake?

>>5316729
I mean't with regards to the 5th generation.

Though, you're probably right if we're talking outside of REmake.

>>5314368
Thing is that the Saturn doesn't do alpha transparency & actual triangles. The Saturn's polygons are actually glorified sprites meshed together.

Contrarians, amirite?

>>5316776
>le saturn can't do transparencies meme

Who gives a shit about something as trivial as that, i want to play the game, not watch a movie.

>>5314368
>>5314386
>>5314803
2D: Saturn > PS1
3D: PS1 > Saturn

>>5316782
They absolutely can't do them properly, and though there's a few tricks to make it almost look right (and I'm not talking about ugly meshes either) they still aren't the real deal.

>>5316982
The VDP2 (backgrounds) can do it just fine.

The VDP1 has some issues, but can also do it.

>>5316776
What the fuck are you talking about Asuka, you love the Sega Saturn.

>>5315758
I thought that was the update. Both the original and update have the same lower vertical res and lesser quality textures here and there, Hardcore just added more costumes and visual effects. Also, the creator was unsatisfied with the initial Dreamcast version as well. Compare the US release with the EU and JP releases.

Saturn's architecture (VDP1, VDP2) and its 256 color mode were really useful for 3D fighting games, Virtua Fighter 2, Dead or Alive and I believe Last Bronx too all run at 704*480 @60fps. PlayStation's architecture had a hard time replicating this, despite being a better 3D machine overall. Dead or Alive and Tobal 2 are both 512*480 @60fps IIRC, Tekken 3 uses some strange resolution, 384*480 or something like that.

Saturn's Dead or Alive uses relatively low color character models in comparison to PS1's Dead or Alive (goraud shaded characters). However, the 2D backgrounds are generated by the VDP2 and don't have this color restriction and look much better than the simplistic PS1 bitmaps.

>>5317615
PS1's peak hardware res is 640 (without clever hacks unusable in a gameplay scenario). The only reason why DOA, Tobal 2 and Tekken 3 don't hit that pixel count is probably due to VRAM contention.

>>5317615
PS1's peak hardware horizontal res is 640 (without clever hacks unusable in a gameplay scenario). The only reason why DOA, Tobal 2 and Tekken 3 don't hit that pixel count is probably due to VRAM contention.

>>5317831
Oh, and probably because Tekken 3 uses a double buffer, while the other two are single buffer.

>>5317442
Hardcore was a complete overhaul with better framerate, improved animations and probably a bunch of other fixes. Sadly it's still based on the awful original version with the "how do you program this thing?" aliasing all those early PS2 games have, but as far as the actual game goes the Japanese Hardcore release is the definitive version.
When you think about it, Tecmo was widely incompetent. Imagine how it would go if a publisher released a game that way nowadays. I guess it didn't matter because DOA2 was so fucking good.

>>5318143
>Imagine how it would go if a publisher released a game that way nowadays
There'd be a day one patch that's bigger than the actual game and developers would hide behind a shield of "PREASE UNDERSTANDU"

>>5316687
More like it's two different games, that shared assets. Both are good in their own right.
Now PS1 port of Saturn game sucked balls considering how much they had to downgrade the geometry of the levels.

>>5317027
>saturn on 16:9
ANATA WA BAKA!?

>>5314368
PSX has Ayane, but in all seriousness, DOA starts at 2, though 1 can be fun to mess around in in Ultimate just because the mechanics are so different from then other games.

Even if the saturn vdp was as good at rendering quads as the ps1 was at triangles, it still lacks the ability to change uv mapping coords on a per quad basis. Each quad renders an entire texture.

That's a huge limitation, and why, for example, doom couldn't use the simple 1 quad per 1-pixel column approach that the ps1 version does.

>>5317615
>Virtua Fighter 2, Dead or Alive and I believe Last Bronx too all run at 704*480 @60fps


Last Bronx didn't use the Saturn's 704*480 resolution mode. I'm not sure what resolution the game was, but I think it was closer to Fighting Vipers. Last Bronx attempted to use 3D arenas.

Decathalete, Winter Heat, Anarchy In The Nippon and D-Xird (runs at 30fps in 704) all used the 704x480i mode. This resolution mode was also used for menus and title screens in many other Saturn games. It is also used for a few pinball games as well.

>>5319026

Also Virtua Fighter Remix and Virtua Fighter Kids used the 'Hi-resolution' mode as well.

>>5316313
>>5318206

>>5320280
>had to replace a whole area with a lava pit, so it wouldn't run like an absolute shit
Wew.

>>5320748
to be fair if there's ever a good solution to a problem? It's a lava pit.

>>5314368
>>the PS1 was more powerful than the Sega Satu-

It could draw twice as good quality polygons, with easier lightning, better transparency, and 4x speed.
It also supported native audio and video compressions for better quality sound effects and FMVs. Saturn had the edge in FM and DSP sound effects and the MPEG video extension, but 1 game supported those.

Saturn was better in 2d, in doing hi-res, had more memory, had a clock, and it could potentially beat the PSX in pure computing power but you had to have black magic programming skills to take advantage of that.

Also the Saturn supported up to 12 controllers.

>>5316330
Better than Tekken or Super Ken Fighter Turbo Alpha Championship Edition.

>>5318223
The Saturn actually had some native 16:9 games, like Nights and PD2

>>5319026
>>5319049
VF2 and Decathlete are the only ones that run fully in hi res. VF Kids too but it's the same as VF2 with just different models.

DOA uses highest res for polygons and it has way smoother animation than Virtua Fighter 2. But it has low res backgrounds.

Winter Heat, VF1 and VF Remix, and also Toshinden URA use double density noninterlaced mode (704x240). Winter Heat switches out to proper hi-res in menus, though.

Vipers, Megamix, and D-Xhird use the lowest resolution for polygons, overlaid on top of hi-res backdrops and menus. They opt for having real time lightning, and the only way to use textured lightning on the Saturn is to use its lowest resolution.

Last Bronx for some reason uses interlaced single density polygons (352x448), lowest resolution backdrops, and highest resolution on the health bars.

Virtua Fighter 1 is the only game out of those that does lightning while running in higher than the lowest resolution. In fact it is the only Saturn game ever to do so. VF Remix looks much worse because it had no lightning. The Saturn can't do any shading in hi-res, the gpu is broken. VF1 can get away with it because it uses single coloured polygons, so the CPU can just calculate the lightning and tell the GPU to draw a different colour polygon.

>>5320792
They weren't 16:9, just some arbitrary "WIDE" mode. One of those Japanese urban racing games also had that mode, I keep forgetting the title of it. And it was anamorphic.

Stellar Assault SS runs in proper 16:9 but it's letterboxed so you have to zoom in.

>>5317831
>>5317615
PSX is limited in resolution only by VRAM. Higher resolution means less space for textures. It's why Tobal used nearly all flat shading but ran in hi-res. But it can still use all hardware features in those modes. It only gets limited in features if it tries doing 24bit TrueColor modes.

Saturn is not limited texture wise, but it can't use half its hardware features in hi-res or even hi-color modes (shading, transparencies). It also has less average texture VRAM in general.

VDP2 backgrounds are usually all indexed colour because of VRAM restrictions. I think only FMVs ever used RGB colour modes, plus the maybe four games that ran in hi-colour mode.

Note that indexed colour can be anything from 8 colours per polygon to 2048, out of a palette of 1024 TrueColor or 2048 HiColor entries, and this is not counting any extra colours you get from VDP2 blending (the only way to do transparency in indexed mode).

THIS shit is what coders thought it made the Saturn difficult to program for. It's a fucking labyrinth.

>>5320748
>so it wouldn't run like an absolute shit

>>5320875
It's not ideal, but game masks the drop well enough.

>>5320875
20 fps during action is on the high end for a 5th gen console fps.

>>5320826
>Saturn is not limited texture wise, but it can't use half its hardware features in hi-res or even hi-color modes (shading, transparencies)
Why is this?

>>5322886
Because it has a shit design. You can only use polygon transparency in RGB mode, because palette colours are applied a frame later by the VDP2, so the VDP1 has no clue how to handle paletted transparency and will produce garbled crap if you try it. The same applies to gouraud shading, except that some of the palette indexes map up to where some of the RGB colours should be, so you can use limited red or green only gouraud shading to cycle palette indexes in hardware. But it requires pre-calculation of the lit colours cause all you do is tell it to use palette number +/-32, so only a handful of games ever did this with real-time lightning (the Lobotomy games chief amongst them). Games like Vipers and Megamix used fixed lightning, and you can tell the game lags the fuck up when it has to change lightning colour/direction on the boxing arena stage.

And if you switch the VDP1 to any of the hi-res modes, then it can't even use neither gouraud shading nor transparency nor shadowing. You can do VDP2 blending and that's it.

>>5316725
Saturn version of RE has ugly models and mesh transparencies though.

>>5318143
Pretty sure Hardcore has less jaggies than the original DOA2 version. Of course the resolution is going to be lower than the Dreamcast version - PS2 has VRAM size limitations. But it more than makes up for it with much better lighting quality and effects (crazy snowstorm transparencies for instance).

>>5320826
>It only gets limited in features if it tries doing 24bit TrueColor modes.
To be exact, the PS1 GPU has no 24-bit rendering mode at all, just a pass through mode that allows the CPU to stream a 24-bit JPEG image to the screen. Out of the consoles of that generation, only the N64 has an actual true-color rendering mode, but only one game used it as far as I know - Quake 2 in 8 MB mode.

>Saturn is not limited texture wise
Well it sort of is as far as VDP1 goes, it just has a bit more room because VDP2 has its own RAM.

>>5323289
Not him, but why can’t the Saturn just use RGB mode? Is it VRAM size limitations, VRAM speed limitations, or is it just really slow due to the internal pixel bus in the VDP chip being really narrow?

>>5314368
Ps1 was the weakest console of it's era,it only won because of the heavy marketing promonting it

>>5323529
>Ps1 was the weakest console of it's era
It's legitimately more powerful than the Saturn though. And it's arguably the best designed console of its generation because it's pretty much perfectly well rounded. N64 needed an extra memory channel to fix 99% of its problems, while Saturn's chips are just a disaster of bad design.

>>5314839
"red pilled" is something taken from The Matrix, where the MC is offered either a red or a blue pill, the red being the introduction to the "real world behind the lies" and the blue pill being the "comforting return to ignorance". It's been repurposed here to suggest that those who are "red pilled" really know what's happening in the world, while those who are "blue pilled" are clueless to the true reality of things, and are complacent to existing forces.

Generally it's used by /pol/tards to proclaim that they are better than other people. So in all honesty, I think you summed it up pretty well. "red pilled means retarded" is a good tl;dr.

Also impressed by how DoA on PSX looks, the still image reminds me of VF3. Doubt it's as beautiful in motion but that's still a nice little magazine shot.

>>5323529
Maybe also because it has a lot of games?

>>5323602
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>>5323625
Butthurt

>>5323567
PSX was utter shit at 2D and only slightly better than Saturn at 3D.

>>5323781
It's backwards. The Saturn was utter shit at 3D and only slightly better than the PS1 at 2D.

>>5323293
>PS2 has VRAM size limitations

Only if you use it as you would use the Dreamcast or a PC, and copy everything the game does into VRAM. You have to use the VRAM for framebuffer and texture cache only, upload small batches of textures that you are about to draw, then swap them out to the next small batch. This requires a lot of micromanaging, but once you get that, you can destroy the Dreamcast in every level, because the PS2 has a frightening amount of VRAM speed (it's on par with the Xbox 360 in that regard).

Dreamcast meanwhile needed all the contents of one frame uploaded at the same time due to how its deferred renderer GPU worked. So of course a DC to PS2 port would look awful, unless they put a lot of effort into rewriting the entire graphics pipeline.

>the PS1 GPU has no 24-bit rendering mode at all,

It had a 24bit framebuffer mode, it just couldn't use any of its draw functions on it. The only thing it allowed for is the 2d drawing mode that was basically DMA copying areas from VRAM into framebuffer. Yes, it was how FMVs worked (also how they worked on the Saturn), but at least one game, Heart of Darkness, used it for game graphics as well.

>Well it sort of is as far as VDP1 goes

I meant specifically in texture memory, you don't lose half your VRAM if you switch to hi-res mode. But yeah what I said could be taken in context of texturing and then the Saturn gets fucked because it loses half its abilities in rgb mode.

>>5324128
you're a smart person, why are you here?

>>5323302
>why can’t the Saturn just use RGB mode?

VRAM size is a limit but you can get around it with CLUTs, even if it is a pain. Speed is not an issue because it processes one pixel at a time regardless of mode, and uses a 16bit bus, so it's 8-bit modes where it wastes half its speed.

RGB mode has no priority or transparency bits for the VDP2 to process, so you can't make a polygon appear under a VDP2 field nor can you make it blend to a VDP2 field. So the biggest advantage the Saturn has, the VDP2, is limited to a HUD. If you do as much as using it for a background, then any transparent polygons will be partially opaque when they are over the background and not another polygon. This means you can't use fogging in the distance either, only by turning far away polygons to a single colour that is harder to see. And the lack of priorities means you can't put something *behind* a background, even to show up behind a window in the background. The entire VDP1 framebuffer is 1 static plane this way.

Also RGB sprites eat more texture memory (it's hard to get around this, you have to micromanage colours with look-up tables).

Sonic R is full RGB and gets around the issue by drawing the most distant polygons with palettes, so they can be blended to backgrounds (RGB mode is 15bit colour + 1 bit to tell the VDP2 if this pixel is RGB or paletted).


>>5323781
>PSX was utter shit at 2D and only slightly better than Saturn at 3D.

PSX was only limited in memory for 2D games, and by the lack of a traditional tilemapper (which is something that it could go around, if it had enough memory). In straight sprite pushing, it's something like 6 times as fast as the Saturn and it isn't limited to half-assed lightning and transparency modes. Castlevania didn't look shit on the Saturn because it was a botch job (well, it was...), but because the game did hundreds of things the Saturn couldn't even approximate due to lack of hardware features.

>>5324168
Also if you want to use hi-res polygons on the Saturn, you are limited to 8-bit because the framebuffer can be only set to multiples of 256. A 704x256 screen requires a 1024x256 framebuffer, and that only fits to a 256k framebuffer in 8-bit mode.

>>5323802
i wouldnt say slightly better at 2d but after playing dem street fighters on saturn first they feel like pimped snes ports on psex

>>5323802
>The Saturn was utter shit at 3D
Only applies to bad western devs who couldn't make use of both processors and VDP's.

>only slightly better than the PS1 at 2D.
Yeah, sure, I'd like to see the PSX try to run something like Radiant Silvergun or Astra Superstars.

>>5323781
>>5323802
Just because The Sega Saturn bases its polygons on quads doesn't mean its weaker than the PS1 and the N64. True, VDP-1 had its share of issues; it really should have been tweaked more during development. Also the Saturn would have been a little more easy to work with had the 2 Hitachi CPUs been put on separate buses. Also, the 3DO from 1993 based its 3D on quadrilaterals too, and yet not as many people complain about its RISC ARM60 CPU nor its video output as they do the system's launch price and the fact that different companies made their own models.

>>5315017
The problem with Dreamcast was that it was hard to create games on it that would use the console's potential

BUMP OF LIFE!

>>5324346
Quads were just one of many reasons the saturn was a pain for 3d.

It used forward texture mapping, which meant transparent quads can't be drawn correctly. Combine that with the uv coords issue I mentioned earlier and you can see how vdp1 was originally meant to draw sprite bitmaps.

Then there's the whole mess with tons of cpus and different memory spaces.

Just because people got around this shit to make a good game does not mean it's a good design. It just means they were very good devs. SGL also helped a lot and handled most of the details for you, but it should have been ready for launch titles.

>>5320875
>this is a 1996 Saturn game
>PC didn't even have colored lighting until 1997
holy fuck

>>5324229
>Only applies to bad western devs who couldn't make use of both processors and VDP's.
VDP1 was literally trash dude, there’s no way around it. And VDP2 is only useful for very few genres of 3D games.

>I'd like to see the PSX try to run something like Radiant Silvergun or Astra Superstars
It could do it, but the background quality might suffer a bit. PS1 GPU is so much faster than VDP1 at rendering sprites that the lack of a tilemapper on PS1 isn’t as big of an issue that you may think.

>>5324350
It’s the opposite. Dreamcast was extremely easy to dev. The only issue was that it’s triangle setup and T&L speed weren’t particular fast (closer to N64 than to the other three 6th gen consoles) but it has a truly impressive next-gen fill rate speed in most situations.

>>5324775
Transparent quads are very, if not extremely difficult to be drawn correctly. That's not the same as impossible Plus, 2 CPUs are not always bad on a game console, and they should have been place on separate buses in the system. Also, your Reddit is showing!

>>5324874
Transparent quads are possible, just not how the saturn renders them.

Most rasterizers use reverse texture mapping, which iterates over the destination pixels, and samples the source texture, which ensures that each pixel is drawn to once per primitive.

The saturn instead iterates over the source bitmap pixels and calculates which pixel to draw it to. This improves cache coherency at the expense of overdraw and incorrect alpha blending.

Spaces between paragraphs has nothing to do with reddit, it's just autism and it feels sloppy to have everything run together.

>>5324801
>1994 dedicated hardware could do things that would have taken too many resources done in software with PCs

Who woulda thought

>>5315336
You know what interlaced is right?

>>5324208
>>5324168
ANON dEsTrOyS SEGATARDS with FACT and LOGIC

>>5324905
Just saying, PC BTFO. No wonder it has no classics worth playing.

>>5324952
>t.Ghost of Steve Jobs.

>>5324942
>t.Playstation fanboy who cannot use correct casing.

>>5324229
>I'd like to see the PSX try to run something like Radiant Silvergun or Astra Superstars

It could do it if it had the RAM. Note that Astra Superstars didn't even boot without a RAM cart.

I'd like to see the Saturn run Omega Boost, Gran Turismo 2, or even just Soul Blade.

>>5324775
>It used forward texture mapping, which meant transparent quads can't be drawn correctly.

That's the least problematic thing about it, on a typical TV of the day you wouldn't notice the artifacts, and even if you did they would be about as annoying as dithering on the Playstation.

The real problem is that it's so slow that you are just unable to draw them. Also they appear opaque on the backgrounds. Also you can't use transparent sprites if you use paletted sprites, and you can only use paletted sprites if you want to interact with the VDP2.

It took extremely unorthodox thinking to get impressive visuals out of the VDP1, Sonic R is probably the best showcase of that, it uses 3 CPUs and 2 polygon rendering paths plus lots of VDP2 effects all at the same time.

>>5324819
>>5324350
DC was easy to do because the dev kits locked down what you could do on the GPU and exposed only the simple triangle setup that 99.9% of devs would use. And there was no allowed way to not get around it, Sega wouldn't publish your game otherwise.

>>5324952
Do you like JRPG too anon?

Yikes!

>>5325892
Saturn has both 2d and 3D RPGs.

>>5327427
PS1 has a couple of dozens of both 2d and 3D RPGs.

>>5325757
>exposed only the simple triangle setup that 99.9% of devs would use
I don't think it would do much good anyway. The Dreamcast's triangle setup unit is a fixed function unit with a limited instruction set. Sure, maybe there's a few functions that could be used for some interesting effects, but I doubt it would have made a big difference.

The biggest problem was that the triangle setup unit just wasn't very faster. That's mostly a result of the fact that it's inside the tile-rendering core which notoriously have to run at very low clock speeds.

>>5314386
fpbp

>>5327598
3/4 of them complete and utter shite

>>5314368
>shadows and lighting versus no shadows and no lighting
ps1 is more powerful yes

>>5328532
Stop stirring shit, lil agitard

>>5315017
I'm a big Dreamcast fan, but even I know that the PS2 version was literally an alpha build some guy stole to put on the PS2.

>>5325750
>The real problem is that it's so slow that you are just unable to draw them. Also they appear opaque on the backgrounds. Also you can't use transparent sprites if you use paletted sprites, and you can only use paletted sprites if you want to interact with the VDP2.

Yes, there were a bunch of other issues with transparency, like performance, and only working in certain scenarios (against sprites or backgrounds, but not both), but even if they ran well, it was still basically incorrect on a fundamental level, and at highly oblique angles, you'd see some very weird blending artifacts.

>>5329548
Like I said, they'd look dithered. On the typical TV of the time, it would've made little difference. Speed was the big problem - if they had enough speed, they could've had a 2-bit VDP1 and still get graphical parity with the Playstation through clever programming.

>>5329882

how would applying alpha blending multiple times per-pixel when it only should happen once look like dithering?

>>5330173
Because it puts random dots in the middle of the polygon.