/vr/ - Retro Games

>>5296673
Seasons is arguably the best game in the series, Ages is another story though. Most will tell you that Ages is the best purely because it's what they played as kids. The small brains all chose the blue box because it looked cooler, but didn't realize they got the version with the excessive puzzles, shit tier overworld that's 50% empty water, tranny maku tree, tranny mermaid suit swimming with terrible controls, awful color palette and objectively worse combat. Seasons is a masterpiece, it pretty much combined Zelda 1 and Ocarina of Time to great effect and did everything right. Ages is just a shittier version of Seasons in every way, it doesn't even have a second hub world like Subrosia, and there's barely any enemies to fight.

Yes but they were released too late in the GBC life cycle, so not a lot of people grew up with them, and nostalgia is the main source of zelda apologists.

>>5296681
you're too harsh on Ages. but I'm glad I got Seasons back then as a kid.

>it doesn't even have a second hub world like Subrosia, and there's barely any enemies to fight.

they had lizard people if I remember correctly and the no enemies meme just isn't true.

>>5296673
I think they are two of the most polished 2D Zelda's. The only thing I think LTTP did better that doesn't come down to superior hardware was having a dedicated shield

>>5296681
Glad I liked Ages so much back then that I went and got Seasons too.

Playing Seasons now, just finishing the fifth dungeon. Really solid so far.

What actually changes in Ages if I do a linked game? Gonna do that next.

Also it’s a real shame they’ve never brought back the ring system.

>>5296945
small things, you start with a lvl2 sword and an extra heart I believe. You can also enter codes from the other game to get certain things, I liked the biggoron sword the most.

There are also some slightly changed story elements.

They're competently made games, but Capcom somehow missed the spark that makes all the other games enjoyable. As someone who's played through Link's Awakening two dozen times, it was a herculean struggle to finish the Oracles, and even then that was only by playing a dungeon or two, then losing interest for weeks on end, and forcing myself to pick them back up.

In essence: The oracles are BORING. I give them a 4/10 rating, and that's me being generous.

Age is more zelda-like and Season feel a little different.
I prefer Season , tho. Also, the final boss being Megaman X1's Sigma but as a dragon was a nice touch.

>>5297081
One focuses on combat, the other on puzzles, though Ages has a slightly better story.

Most people seem to think Seasons is better, its more straight forward and combat heavy.

>>5297075
unpopular opinion here, I find the LA more boring and less polished than the Oracle games.

>>5296673
I've never played these games and want to check them out. Which order should I play them in for the best experience?

>>5297234
It truly doesn't matter. Flip a coin if you're that indecisive.

>>5297234
I would do Ages first. My reasoning is that most of the bonuses you get on the second game are combat related, and Seasons is the one focused on combat

>>5296673
No. I find them too dragged-out and bloated to get much fun from them anymore.

>>5297075
oos has a MUCH better pace than link's awakening. and i'd say link's awakening wastes your time just as much as ages. what with the constant acorns/triforce pieces getting in the way, the pre-power bracelet message, the raccoon in the wood, bow-wow, the ghost etc. it's all such obvious, boring filler

i feel like la fanboys go out of their way to dislike the oracle games just because they're inherently put off by them stealing link's awakening's style (despite making better use of it)

>>5297081
i'd say seasons is MUCH more traditionally zelda-like. it basically feels like a more modern, fleshed-out version of zelda 1 in a lot of its design. it goes back to the basics but wrings so much more out of them

>>5297435
The most dragged out part of LA is the whole chase for the Angler Key which involves escorting Marin to the desert. For the most part, LA increases in pace as you get the bracelet, flippers, and hookshot.

Meanwhile, Ages has the Tokay trades and the Goron minigames and all the time-warps, and Seasons isn't much better with Subrosia and the ghost pirates and the jewels to get to the sixth dungeon. It all brings the flow to a crashing halt at much more frequent intervals.

Story and characters are weak.

>>5297319
Thank you, I'll do it that way, then.

>>5297435
>the pre-power bracelet message
So I'm not the only one
The only thing that stops me from replaying it

>>5297480
Pretty sure there are rom hacks to remove those messages along with the guardian acorn and piece of power messages.

>>5297465
wait, how is subrosia filler? it's just another world to explore like the main overworld and the outcome when the game makes you go there for progression always involves something new for the player. i dont think the jewels count either. by the time you even get to the gate, you've more than likely found most of them anyway. they only take some light exploration to find. this is all unlike the parts you and me referred to in la which literally halt all gameplay to take you off the beaten path for some asinine story element or some annoying little tutorial or badly implemented gameplay quirk like the triforce/acorns. most of which provide nothing for the player

>>5297471
ages had better characters than any other 2d zelda. the problem is, like la, they inelegantly shove them in your face. seasons having mostly shallow characters/story works in its favor since it makes more room for unfettered gameplay

>>5297546
Agree with this. I like seasons cause it lets me skip the bs and just play a game. I always prefer when story is told through ways other than cutscenes and long dialog anyway.

If someone likes their zelda as something story-heavy with lots more focus on characters I’d recommend ages to them over seasons though, so this is just a matter of taste and what you want from your games.

>>5297540
>The Subrosia dance
>Your feather being stolen to force a stealth sequence
>Dating Rosa just so she can unlock doors
Subrosia is filler.

And it's not just the jewels, either. Once you have them, you still have to go through the constant season-switching and forest-exploring to reach the dungeon itself.

>>5297538
I remember being so annoyed with it that I actually started searching for romhacks that fix this. I found nothing though.

>>5297587
>completely optional and really easy
>short, fun sequence that challenges you based on the one earlier you did with rosa
>walking up to a girl then leading her through a couple doors
wow great examples there bruh. i guess digging around for the star chunk is probably the closest subrosia gets to actual filler but at that point digging around for ore chunks is still a fresh concept so i don't think it's too bad.

ok? the seasons-switching is a final test on how well you understand how all the different seasons work and is a nice little compact test of all of that. i think pushing the armos onto the frozen lake in winter then using it when its sunk in the other seasons to cross over the rocks is probably the coolest use of the season-switching in the game. plus the forest-exploration just requires talking to one of the scrubs to find the correct way through. it's just a little memory challenge. plus i think all of this overall is good for the pacing since it makes the ancient ruins feel elusive and dangerous which fits the difficulty spike it is in gameplay

>>5297605
The dance is not optional, at least not on the first visit. You need to win it to get a Boomerang so you can reach the Temple of Seasons.

>>5297595
This one is only for LADX, but here you go: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/3597/

>>5297618
or you can have a modicum of creativity and use a bomb to hit the switch

>>5297587
What exactly contitutes filler to you? Cause once you have the feather there’s plenty of platforming in subrosia, as well as erupting volcanoes to avoid. Action sequences like that aren’t really filler in an action adventure game.

The dance is one quick little minigame. I thought it was fun.

If you’re annoyed at Rosa then you must hate dungeons which are mostly blocking progress until you find keys. You can get to new areas with her, exploring a world isn’t what I’d call filler in Zelda.

Zelda has had similar mechanics to the seasons thing before, like with the mirror in lttp. Admittedly I never liked those puzzles much, not sure why I like how seasons does it. Maybe it’s just cause it feels less vague than the mirror did to me, when you change the seasons to do something it feels purposeful and you basically know how you’re altering the overworld. I didn’t like how much the overworld in awakening felt like a dungeon but again for some reason I dig it in seasons. Might be cause the item switching isn’t as frequent and there’s no dialog rocks to run into. I don’t feel like I wander into solutions to obstacles in seasons, it always feels like I know what I’m changing and how I’m approaching something and that’s how I end up past it.

Admitedly I’m only five dungeons in but so far my experience has been pretty stellar and I haven’t felt like my time is being wasted.

Also, I missed a locked door in subrosia during the date, can I unlock it later or am I locked out of that secret forever?

Also also, I really dig the dungeon shapes. Realizing the second was actually supposed to be a massive dead snake when I got the map was really cool. Also reminds me a lot of zelda 1’s dungeons.

>>5297626
>2017
So there wasn't one when I last replayed the game. I'm glad people are still making romhacks

>>5297708
you mean the locked door to the summer section of the temple of seasons? yeah you're actually supposed to get that later. you can take rosa with you whenever you want

>>5296673
No, they're good, but Link to the Past and Link's Awakening are the best ones.

>>5297708
About Season's Dungeon layout, every dungeon (bar the Tower and Crypt, I think) has a meaning. From memory:
First, bird shaped.
Second, snake.
Third, moth.
Fourth, dragon when you superpose both floors.
Fifth, unicorn's head.
Eighth, first floor is shield (iced') and basement is sword (magmamed').

Y’all get too butthurt when someone thinks your game isn’t the best. Learn to accept criticism and that your own opinion is just an opinion.

>>5298336
i'll defend oos against retarded arguments all i want. it's criminally underappreciated and needs to be singled out especially with all the raving link's awakening cultists on here trying to convince people that they shouldn't even try it out

>>5298372
Without Ages, there's no point in playing Seasons alone.

>>5298427
uhh no. all the linked game stuff you can get is cool but it kinda just ends up breaking the game. it's just fine on its own

>>5298432
Maybe so, but it still feels incomplete without the final Ganon battle.

Has anyone made a remake of these games and/or links awakening?

>>5296681
Seasons is supposed to have more action than puzzles and Ages is supposed to have more puzzles than action, or something like that.

it actually turned out that Seasons was a perfectly balanced zelda game and Ages was more annoying, still good but not as great. and also despite not being the puzzle-y game, the Rod of Seasons was a much better puzzle mechanic than the Harp of Ages.

>>5298318
And exactly what meaning do those have besides being shaped like an animal?

>>5298336
I don’t mind the criticism, just something to respond to that generates conversation. Thinking about why I disagree with the criticism helps me clarify my own thoughts on the game.

>>5296673
They're unironically not even close. They were a huge step backwards for 2D Zelda. Maybe best Zelda games that came out after LA, though that's a low bar.

>>5298819
Its better than LA. They are bigger in every since of the word. The only thing LA has on them is ambiance.

>>5297587
>Subrosia is filler

it's not. it's a whole new map too. And these Subrosia people are something I'd have liked to see in a 3D Zelda.

>>5296673
No

The added new content which is nice but the mechanics come off a little "rom hacky". They aren't bad by any means but they just didn't hook my attention.

>>5299117
I feel as though LA has a better sense of adventure and better focus on whats fun.

>>5299117
Bigger isn't always better. Quality over quantity.

>>5296673
Neither of them are particularly good.

Zelda games are at their best when they're trying not to be traditional Zelda games. Majora's Mask, Breath of the Wild, Hyrule Warriors, Wind Waker, 2, and the four swords games are proof of this.

>>5296673
I played them both about 2 years ago. My impressions were good at first, but then very quickly turned to "meh".

For my liking, they both had too much busy work shoved into them (AKA: "content"). The whole ring thing, chaning seasons and time traveling, the dungeons having padding in them to make them aeem larger than they should be. I can go on. What felt fun at first quickly turned into a bore at best, and a chore at worst.

They're certainly not bad games, but the classic holy trinity of 2d Zeldas is still: the original Legend of Zelda, A link to the past and Link's Awakening, as they're all much more focused adventures with no filler or busy work shoehorned in.

>>5299451
I'm not going to sit here and say they are perfect, I find a lot of puzzles in games tedious rather than fun, but man if when I got around to playing LA after the Oracle games did it feel empty.

And its not that I consider it a bad game either, I had just heard so many people who thought it was better than the Oracle games that I expected more.

>>5296673
No, these games are the definition of quantity over quality and they suffer massively in pacing because of it.

>>5299451
the whole ring thing is entirely optional and the rings might just be the most valuable side item in all of zelda so i don't understand the criticism. they're definitely a better reward for exploration than more rupees. changing seasons is no more tedious than using the mirror in lttp or the ocarina in la. in fact i'd say its even better since you can infer how the world is going to change around you before actually changing it and seeing. you actually feel like you're solving puzzles and not just looking for the right place to stand to warp like you do with the mirror in lttp

why do people have to stretch the definition of padding so obscenely hard to criticize oos? even if they were right, link's awakening still has a ton of padding in of itself anyway lol

>>5299630
link's awakening cultists don't enjoy it more for actual reasons just fyi. it's just because it came first and it's the one they've actually bothered playing

>>5299725
>rings might just be the most valuable side item in all of zelda
They really only exist to provide the mandatory Pokemon gimmick of "Gotta catch 'em all" which many GBC games at the time had.

>>5299825
i don't care. they're neat and ahead of their time. they certainly interested me more than catching all the pokemon did

>>5299825
>>5299864

The rings are OK and some of them are helpful but I never felt like trying to get anywhere near all of them.

>>5296673
Absolutely, with LA too
>Then if you look at Minish Cap or something, it's all eye-candy but short as fuck campaign
Couldn't agree more, also the main sidequests of MC suck compared to the ones of OA and OS

>>5300127
I like MC but I agree.

I spent more time with Kinstone grinding than anything all that meaningful, due to the sheer length of the main game.

I like that there’s a double damage ring. Are the rings gotten randomly or will you always get that one pretty early on?

>>5300293
Most are random, some specific ones are earned through sidequests or treasure chests, a few are just given to you for reaching achievements.

Though I have no clue how you would get the Red Ring early. It's rigged to be a late-game item.

>>5300293
>>5300351
i think he's referring to the power ring which boosts damage AND damage taken. you get it in the first dungeon in ages iirc

When you plant a Gasha Seed, does the tree produce a random ring or do certain patches of dirt produce certain rings? Just wondering if it makes sense to re-plant a seed at a spot or if I should just plant one seed per spot or if it just doesn't matter because it's 100% random.

>>5300360
OK. He said double damage, and only the Red Ring actually doubles it with no penalty.

>>5300451
I think each spot has a set pool of random items that might grow, among them Rings, Rupees, fairies, more seeds, Magic Potions, and even a Piece of Heart (but only one).

>>5300486
he might've just meant that you get the red ring literally close to the start of the game. as in the screen with the hidden stairwell is right above impa's house where you start playing

FUCK this RNG bullshit. This minigame sucks so bad I'm not even sure I care to keep playing the rest of the game.

>>5296681
>just exploring overworld is a chore because you have to change seasons
>have to cycle through seasons to see what's changed, sometimes snow blocks your way and sometimes it doesnt, sometimes water dries up and sometimes it doesnt

>>5301845
This and the subrosian dance are why I never finished either of these games. Such tedious, awful experiences.

>>5302191
Do you mean the goron dance? The subrosian one is super easy.

>>5301845
Wait until you arrive to THAT dungeon.

>>5301846
>just exploring the world is a chore because you have to change seasons
>just exploring the world is a chore because you have to use the magic mirror in the right spots
>just exploring the world is a chore because you have to kill enemies
>just exploring the world is a chore because you have to sometimes look for rupees
>just exploring the world is a chore because you have to look for hidden stairwells in the bushes
all overworld gameplay is a chore if you reduce it to busywork

>>5302194
and you don't even have to do it

>>5301846
snow never blocks your way. it's pretty much always some kind of platform to get you to another area. and the water drying up in summer is only ever used for secrets iirc

>>5302194
Maybe? I don't know, I just hate forced minigames like that in general and they completely spoil the experience in the Oracle games.

>>5302381
it literally isn't forced.

>>5302381
I get it, I don't think they're ideal either. But if you're dropping the game for it then you're acting like a little bitch.

all the people in this thread crying about the "filler" in oos must hate link's awakening with all its actual filler

>>5302406
it's ok when the game i played first does it

>Wow! This looks pretty heavy! You won't be able to lift it with just your bare hands.
<Wow! This looks pretty heavy! You won't be able to lift it with just your bare hands.
>gee i sure am glad i don't have to play a 30 second minigame in oos. that's such annoying filler
>Wow! This looks pretty heavy! You won't be able to lift it with just your bare hands.
>Wow! This looks pretty heavy! You won't be able to lift it with just your bare hands.

>Wow! This looks pretty heavy! You won't be able to lift it with just your bare hands.
>Wow! This looks pretty heavy! You won't be able to lift it with just your bare hands.
>Wow! This looks pretty heavy! You won't be able to lift it with just your bare hands.
>Wow! This looks pretty heavy! You won't be able to lift it with just your bare hands.
>Wow! This looks pretty heavy! You won't be able to lift it with just your bare hands.
now lemme tell you about how annoying that 30 second minigame you optionally can do once in oos is

>>5302406
I want to get Marin

>>5302441
>>5302406
Best Marin is the one from the manga and you can't prove me wrong.

>>5302441
Wow! This is a nice chest!
>>5302463
Where can I find it?

>>5302468
>Where can I find it?
http://historyofhyrule.com/publications/manga_la1/
http://historyofhyrule.com/publications/manga_la2/

>>5302417
Okay, now defend the minigame from OOA: >>5301845
This one IS mandatory, and it's based on RNG and regularly gives you unwinnable patterns.

>>5302417
A message that goes away once you get the bracelet and can be easily avoided after a few bumps before then.

You could at least pick one that never goes away, like the ones for the cracked blocks or the ones you ram with the boots to break.

>>5302503
..no? i'm not here to defend ooa. and it's not what that guy was talking about anyway
>>5302528
sure. not to mention the triforce pieces/acorns. all of which were done away with in oos

>>5302530
Original LA let you cancel all but the most important dialogues with B, but LADX removed that feature.

>>5297075
felt the same. i ended up dropping the line before finishing them, don't remember which order i started with

>>5302532
that's a shitty bandaid on a big issue. the same people that say an easy, 30-second optional minigame ruined the entirety of oos for them shouldn't be so easy on la

>>5296673
How can they be the best when they have some cryptic shit sometimes that make me hate them. You had those moments in ocarina like the fire arrow but they never were full autistic to make you unable to finish some dungeon or make you lose a lot of time.

But at the end of the day i love almost every zelda so i don't give a fuck.

>>5302634
She's such a highly educated individual she has managed to secure herself a position at a funeral home answering calls

>>5302634
>loves almost every zelda
>gets lost at any point in oracle of seasons

>>5302627
Having to skip through some extraneous dialogue every now and then (most of which is avoidable) is a far cry from forced, unfun, minigames that you have to beat in order to obtain key items for progression.

>>5302640
>She's such a highly educated individual she has managed to secure herself a position at a funeral home answering calls

uh... wut

>>5302695
first of all, bullshit. the former literally halts all gameplay for whatever text box to insist on itself for the 1000th time, and is a problem in some form for pretty much the entirety of the game no matter what you're doing. and second of all, IT ISN'T MANDATORY. the boomerang is not a key item. you can throw a bomb at the one switch you "need" the boomerang for.

either way it's so easy and unintrusive that complaining about it in spite of everything i've mentioned about la really does seem like stretching

>>5302726
Seems like we just have different priorities, then, because I see the textboxes as a very minor annoyance. Stopping all progression and pacing dead in its tracks for an annoying minigame is, to me, a much greater offense. And yeah, I know you say the boomerang isn't actually necessary, but the game does not indicate that clearly and it definitely is presented as mandatory. I believe you also get one of those flute things for an animal companion from the dance minigame as well, which also at least FEELS required, and that's all it takes to ruin the experience of a game for someone who hates the minigame.

>>5302658
the dumb season traveling shit mixed with dungeons is very weird sometimes brother.

>>5302787
good thing it literally doesn't stop progression or pacing whatsoever, unlike the literal only thing the text boxes do. does your mind just not know how to read the word 'optional' or what? it isn't "presented" as mandatory either. ffs blowing up switches to change them is literally a thing you HAVE to do in previous zeldas (1st dark world dungeon in lttp comes to mind). all it takes is an ounce of creativity in your item usage, something the game (and other good zelda games) focus on all the time anyway. if anything it "presents" the exact opposite.
and yeah you can do the dance to get dimitri's flute. but so what? it's just another optional reward that has some actual purpose. either way, ricky's what most players are gonna find first and is the better partner overall so don't give me more of this "mandatory" shit

also either way i still have no idea what's supposedly so awful and progression-ruining about the minigame. it's literally the easiest thing dude. i don't know how you even coordinate yourself to that point of the game if you had any trouble whatsoever with it. you sure you're not getting it confused with the goron one?

>>5302813
i don't understand why either of these things were confusing for you

>he struggled at all with the first subrosian dance
You're terrible!
Get outta here!

>>5302850
The problem with your argument is that you're arguing with hindsight and not thinking about the experience of a new player. I'm sure you know all those things are optional NOW, but did you know it THEN? This is like someone complaining about, say, the fight with Crocomire in Super Metroid and coming back at them by saying, "That's optional! You can skip that fight entirely by learning to wall jump and shinespark! Why are you even complaining about this optional boss fight?!" Unless you're using a guide, you don't necessarily know that the boomerang and dimitri's flute are optional, and it's very easy to assume they're not on a first, blind playthrough of the game. You just need to get your head out of your own ass and learn to actually think from someone else's perspective for a second.

>>5302973
that's what i've been doing. it doesn't take the calculations of a supercomputer to think to throw a bomb at the switch. and even if someone did think they had to do the minigame to progress, who cares? it's an easy-as-fuck minigame and any claim that it breaks up the pacing is overdramatic as fuck. fucking whacking bushes for rupees is more of a pace-breaker than this minigame ffs. you're talking about "new players" but then are also insisting that they know to have to get dimitri's flute from the dance when the game doesn't even tell you about it at all and pretty much every new player finds ricky first like i said. your point is moot no matter how you look at it

>>5302987
I've only ever gotten that far in the game and I assumed you needed to get all the animal helpers and their items to progress. Is this not the case?

>>5303178
no, you only get/need one per playthrough. the others exist pretty much purely for replay value

>>5303178
You meet all three over the course of the game, but only one of them stays with you. Which one depends on how you get the flute to call them with.

>>5297465
>Ages has the Tokay trades and the Goron minigames and all the time-warps

You say this as it is bad somehow; Planting a seed in past and then seeing how the tree grows in the present among other things are pretty good.

IIRC Ages also has an OK to good lore since you go back and forth in time and can change things.

playing OoS right now and fuck, the dungeons get really annoying later on. Ancient Ruins was a pain in the ass. But not gonna lie, I'm having a blast.
I really like the undead pirates and the subrosian characters. Shit is fun.

>>5302859
>tell the subrosian smithy to polish my bell
>say "please" because it's polite
>nigga rejects my request
>go back inside
>tell him to "DO IT, BITCH!"
>he happily gives the bell to the master because how much of a hardass I am

subrosians are weird, man.

>>5304105
there's a reason the game makes you do so much in preparation for it lol. might just be my favorite dungeon honestly. though explorer's crypt has some amazing moments

>>5298318
Dungeons have shapes in the Oracles games because they were Zelda 1 remakes that got repurposed. It's the same reason you can burn bushes to find old men, why ghosts and graveyards appear, why there's a lost woods sequence etc.

>>5304338
i love oos but i do kinda wish i could switch timelines for a moment and try out the zelda 1 remake we never got.

>>5302191
you're clearly not a true subrosian.
gotta dance harder, you little bitch.

best animal companion?
it's interesting that the section of the games change based on what flute you have.

>>5300351
>>5300360
I was actually talking about the cursed ring, I meant double damage taken, not given. Apparently it halves your attack power too though.

I love hard mode items like that, that are integrated into the game’s rules in a more creative way than selecting ‘hard mode’ from a menu.

I haven’t been using it but love that it’s an option, that’s why I was asking if it’s always easy to find early on. The difficulty curve so far has been right where I like. Tough at points but always fair, and not as hard as the NES games were but still tougher than lttp/la/all later games.

>>5304958
You could always use passwords to put the ring in your game. You could get it as early as your first trip to the ring shop that way.

>>5304958
oh yeah i always find that one super early on. i remember attempting a run with it and giving up at mothula lel. i never have trouble with her otherwise but you just have to wail on her so much more with halved sword damage

>>5304958
The Cursed Ring is one of the most common rings in the game, so you're likely to get it very early on.

>>5304110
Reminds me of that alien race Wesley threw a bitchfit at in that one TNG episode, because they respect that and see politeness as weakness.

>>5304849
moosh. i like flying around and facesitting on everything

>>5304849
Dimitri. He's actually handy for getting to good Gasha spots prior to getting the Flippers, plus neither game has him as the default and so I like giving him some attention.

What the hell am I missing here? I've broken all the other crystals and explored every room available to me. I've tried bombing it, but that doesn't work, and no other item in my inventory works. Can someone give me a hint?

>>5306237
Nevermind. I looked it up and found out you can angle the seed shooter by holding the button and pressing the D-pad. How the fuck was I supposed to figure out that was possible? The game literally never explained that.

>>5306264
i just shot it at an enemy once, missed and noticed that it bounced off the wall. not that hard to figure out. it's all the more easy to figure out when you can suspiciously aim diagonally with it despite not being able to do that with any other item

>>5306264
>How the fuck was I supposed to figure out that was possible?
Doesn't the game tell you that when you get the shooter?

>>5307358
No, I knew the seeds could ricochet, I just didn't know the shooter could be aimed at an angle.

>>5307367
I don't remember reading that in the description but I guess I could have missed it.

>>5304849
Guys guys

>Moosh is blue
>Dimitri is red
>Ages is to blue like Seasons is to red

Maybe the third game was going to have Ricky's colors, whaetever color is he.

>>5306264
The absolute state of millenials

So I started playing Link's Awakening DX. I noticed the Trendy Game doesn't have Magic Powder. Is something wrong?

>>5307358
Cant you throw boomerang diagonally? Been able to do that since zelda 1.

>>5309018
yeah but it doesn't have a preemptive aiming animation that goes diagonally like the shooter

>>5307467
the third game was going to be themed green representing farore so i think it's just a coincidence

>>5307470
Its funny how we used to play the original nintendo games, which gave you practically no clues or suggestions, and we beat those challenges. And now zoomers cant even do shit, with obvious clues and suggestions. Wtf is wrong with kids

>>5309560
b-but creative item usage and experimenting on the overworld is bad design! i need a cutscene to explain to me where to go and what to do at all times!

Oracle of Ages and LttP were my first Zelda games. But I ended up loving OoA and OoS more. They're still fantastic games.

>>5306264
>the game needs to explain EVERYTHING ABOUT A FEATURE to me or it's bad design!
Fucking christ, you god damn zoomers.

>>5308924
Have you gotten it from the forest yet? It's definitely there- I just happen to be replaying it right now.

>>5311983
It's the ONLY ITEM IN THE GAME that works that way. I'd say it merits a fucking explanation. Hell, it's the only item in ANY 2D Zelda game EVER that works that way. Why would such a unique feature not deserve to be explained to the player?

>>5307367
Nah.
https://youtu.be/QTSzMfU3BrU?t=514
"You got the Seed Shooter! Pick your seeds, fire, then watch them ricochet."
I can't remember if the Moonlit Grotto is like the Eagle's Tower from Link's Awakening, but, if that isn't the case, breaking that specific crystal isn't necessary (Just gets you a Gasha Seed) and there are puzzles on the second floor that require you to aim the Seed Shooter diagonally.

>>5312324
Breaking all 4 crystals drops the turnstile to the basement and lets you access the rest of the dungeon, so yes it's required. I was stuck there for HOURS because I had no idea to even think to try holding the button to aim the seed shooter.

>>5312357
I see. Well, they definitely should've put in one of these diagonal ricochet puzzles before that crystal, then. The good ol' "try everything" strategy still works here, though, especially since you know Seed Shooter shots can ricochet.

>>5312385
Literally all it needed was a line that said "Hold the button and press [dpad] to aim" in the dialogue box when you pick up the item.

>>5312402
that's makes the puzzle entirely trivial though. if so much of the dungeon requires you to use it anyway, it isn't a stretch for the designers to expect you to eventually figure it out yourself. that thing which, yknow, makes puzzles satisfying

>>5312541
>Making excuses for bad game design
It's not gamebreaking, but c'mon, either that should have been explained to the player or there should have been an earlier puzzle or maybe an enemy that telegraphed that the item could be aimed.

>>5312609
>a game explaining everything about itself in text boxes is good design
and how would an enemy telegraphing that the item could be aimed be any different than the puzzle? in fact the puzzle is the better solution since there's no tension involved, making it easier on the player to figure it out for themselves

>>5312626
>Not telling players about a unique feature in an item that no other item before it has isn't bad game design
An enemy would be better as long as it couldn't hit the player at first. An enemy could be programmed to have the same item, be clearly shown aiming it, and always shoot it away from the player. It could then be a regular enemy after that screen. That would be better than just not telling the player anything and waiting for them to fuck around with the inputs until they accidentally stumble upon the feature.

>>5297465
I got stuck in subrosia and never ended up finishing the game.

>>5312626
This is spoilers for the anon playing through Ages, so don't read, I guess.
Anyway, just for reference, there's a puzzle in Mermaid's Cave (room in the very middle of the map here) where you have to kill a Rope by using Scent Seeds, because they attract enemies. They can't harm you, but you can't harm them, and the only way to kill them is laying Scent Seeds on the ground. That's a good example of a no-tension enemy puzzle.

>>5312638
>it's wrong to expect players to know to aim diagonally with an item that only shoots seeds in a game where you can otherwise move diagonally. especially since a seed shooter that the game tells you can bounce them off walls is literally ONLY useful at all if used diagonally
also that's fucking dumb and obtuse. why should they program a lobotomized enemy that exists purely as a tutorial? no other zelda enemy has ever been like that. it's like saying there should've been an enemy that blows up a cracked wall with a bomb to teach the player to blow up cracked walls with bombs. it's not the game's fault you refuse to apply common sense to it. and since that kind of enemy behavior and what it demands of the player is so unprecedented, who's to say that it would even teach the player the desired lesson anyway? i don't think i can somehow fly around in zelda just because i see the keese doing it

>>5312727
ok. the game isn't implying that you can slither around and fall from ceilings because the ropes can do it so i don't know how this is helping the other anon's point

man i don't even like oracle of ages that much but i actually really appreciate the dungeon design for at least not babying the player but i guess that's what people want out of zelda games

>>5312741
It was just the first thought I had off of the top of my head mate. But I'll keep going
>why should they program a lobotomized enemy that exists purely as a tutorial?
For tutorial purposes? And they don't really need to program a specific dumb enemy I don't think- don't the GBC Zelda games feature enemies that behave differently after they've 'spotted' Link? Just put the enemy on the far side of a room, maybe over a pit so the item has to be used to kill it.
>it's like saying there should've been an enemy that blows up a cracked wall with a bomb to teach the player to blow up cracked walls with bombs
Not exactly, although your example would essentially serve the same purpose. Don't forget, by the way, that the cracked walls were an innovation and that in Zelda 1 you were just supposed to waste your goddamn time bombing everything.
An example of how to teach the diagonal aiming that's similar to the cracked wall implementation would be to have a floor pattern with diagonal lines that would match up with an easily solved puzzle. That would mesh well with what was already in the game and is a way better idea than the first thing I came up with after just telling the player like every other post-Adventure of Link game
>it's not the game's fault you refuse to apply common sense to it
It is the developers's fault if they don't adequately explain a novel and not easily immediately understood game mechanic, but obviously this wasn't a big deal since people seem to have been capable of beating this game just fine for decades
>and since that kind of enemy behavior and what it demands of the player is so unprecedented, who's to say that it would even teach the player the desired lesson anyway?
Again, first idea I thought up. It'd have to be tested to see if it would really work
>i don't think i can somehow fly around in zelda just because i see the keese doing it
But if you saw a keese blow up a cracked wall, you'd get the message loud and clear

>>5312770
again, being able to bounce the seeds off walls is only practical at all if used diagonally. literally the only real problem here is that you couldn't think that through

>>5312794
I'm not the guy who originally brought it up and in fact have never played this game, I'm just interested in talking about game design and I'm only in this thread cause Zelda's my favorite retro series
And, I mean, yeah, you're right, but not explaining the functionality through text upon getting the item like every other item in Zelda or telegraphing the ability to aim it through some other means, the floor pattern being what I am convinced is fucking brilliant and amazing and I'm smarter than every idiot at Capcom also, is bad game design.

>>5299449
Majora's mask isn't good though.

>>5312898
...it does explain its functionality. it just leaves the implications of that to you like literally every other zelda item you solve puzzles with. that lack of explanation is what makes the puzzles, you know, puzzling. would the roc's feather be a better item if the game told you to jump before every pit? this is all the more confusing considering how much you apparently like zelda

>>5312924
I dunno, maybe while playing that's more obvious, but reading about it doesn't really sound like it. You make an honestly great point by saying that ricocheting is only useful if you can shoot diagonally, but it really should be explained when you get the item like every other item.
Roc's feather is just press the button once it's equipped and you jump. Much EZer to get in comparison to the aiming system that shooty item apparently has. Roc's feather in Link's Awakening has great gameplay-guided tutorials, actually. You can jump over the traps in front of the staircase leading to it, and you pass a floating heart (shown as having wings and bobbing up and down) on the way to get the item, so if the player hasn't used the item yet on their way back, trying to get that previously unattainable heart is the first thing they'll do.

>>5312939
it IS explained. you (and that other anon) not being able to see what the ricocheting explanation implies is not the fault of the game. it is absolutely fine for a game about solving puzzles to make you experiment with a newly acquired item instead of just telling you what to do with it. it's like you're trying to rationalize the terrible pre-power bracelet/pre-pegasus boots messages constantly halting the player in link's awakening or something.
ok? and the seed shooter telegraphs its use by having you shoot a seed diagonally at a wall to hit a switch lmao. it's actually less obtuse than a random floating heart if anything

>>5312953
Fuck no, the second I heard about the romhack that gets rid of those, I patched my rom I was in the middle of replaying. I think it's the same one I downloaded back in like 2008. Although I think they might have worked better if they were just one box and only activated if the player pressed A on a pot or other object, speaking of the power bracelets.
See, the switch, as per the screenshot, is a half-decent telegrapher, but it would have worked a million times better with maybe a diagonal floor pattern that matched up with the proper angle from which to shoot at. I think the heart is less obtuse, by a country mile, but we're just saying the same shit over and over to each other at this point. I think it could be done better, and going off of what the other Anon who got confused said, I think it's inadequately explained to the player. Like I said before though, it's not as if a majority of people didn't eventually figure it out. I wonder how many people got stuck on this part and had to learn from a friend that the item shoots diagonally, though.

>>5312968
kingk got stuck on it for a good while, but he remarks that the moment he solved it was one of the most satisfying feelings he had playing the game lol. some people like having to experiment and not be told what to do

>>5312968
also i dont think the tiles are a good way to deal with this either. it still makes it too obvious and invalidates the puzzle. it's literally tracing the problem out for the player to just go through the motions

>>5312974
Did he really 'solve' anything though? He just discovered a new way to use an item in a way that wasn't explained to him. I guess the puzzle is figuring out how to shoot the crystal, assuming the player hasn't figured out how to aim it before that screen, but solving it is just fucking with the inputs rather than figuring it out from the ricochet hint.
>>5312979
If all the tiles had the same pattern it wouldn't be too obvious. It'd be some Arino-figuring-out-the-cannon shit at worst

>>5312981
...yes. he solved it. you act as if he just spammed buttons until something happened to work. he thought about aiming diagonally and then applied it. he solved a puzzle. it's no different than any other puzzle
and i don't see how the tiles being the same pattern changes anything. it's what i thought of it being in my head to begin with lol. still traces out the solution to the puzzle

>>5313009
I really don't see how that would make it too obvious. We're thinking about it in hindsight- of course it's more obvious to us than it would be to a new player.

>>5313021
i think if anything the better thing to do would just to maybe move the switch a tile to the right to make it look less obviously accessible to the player otherwise or maybe make the opening for the seed smaller to give the player the impression that they're supposed to shoot something in there

>>5313025
This is also a good idea.

>>5296673
They are fantastic games.

>>5297626
Thanks

>>5312794
>being able to bounce the seeds off walls is only practical at all if used diagonally.

You say that, but in the boss fight of the dungeon you actually have to ricochet the seeds directly behind you in a straight line. So there's that.

>>5312741
If you move diagonally and press the button you don't shoot at an angle. You have to HOLD the button and there's no reason to think that would actually do anything.

>>5296673
I think they are so good because they seem to be heavily based on Links Awakening DX, mechanics/engine-wise. Whereas Minish Cap I would guess had to be built up from scratch.
Plus remember those two games were originally planned as a Trilogy, so when they decided to make it two games only, I'm sure they took what was done of the third game and split and crammed it into the other two games. Ages is clearly a very puzzle-focused experience, where's Seasons is more adventure/exploration focused. Making the games distinctly different like that makes it an overall comprehensive package. Not a reswap of stuff like Pokemon games are.
I had both as a kid and played them to death. I never had Links Awakening. I need to do a runthrough on my GBC flash cart some time to remedy that.

>>5313472
i know. but that's a one-time gimmick thing. my point was about what the player should be able to understand from the get-go about what this item's use implies. it can ricochet seeds, so therefore to really make use of that, you'd have to try to use it diagonally
>>5313475
ok? you have to hold the button to aim it anywhere. not sure what the issue is there

>>5314004
>you have to hold the button to aim it anywhere. not sure what the issue is there

The problem is there's no precedence for that control scheme in these games. Figuring out that you have to hold the button to aim the shooter doesn't feel like solving a puzzle, it just feels like an unprecedented mechanic that should have been explained from the outset. It doesn't help that up to that point you can only break the crystals with your sword; even throwing a bomb at it won't break it, which is an inconsistency in the rules that makes the "puzzle" even less fun and even more arbitrary, because there's no reason that bombs wouldn't break a crystal that can be broken by your sword or seeds.

For the record, I think that aiming the shooter is a fine mechanic and I enjoyed all the other puzzles that involved ricocheting seeds around, I only think it's bad that they don't just tell you how to use the damn thing.

>>5313475
It doesn't shoot until you release the button. It's not a stretch to assume that the player will hold the button first and then aim at an enemy, learning that you can shoot diagonally.

playing a linked game right now by going through OoA. But now I remember how annoying Ages is in terms of timeswap mechanics. I like it though because it's challenging. Seems like OoS was for brainlets compared to some of the riddles and quests in OoA. However, it was a much more polished game with better pacing than Ages. All I can say is that Rolling Ridge is hell.

>>5314138
Why would I hold the button when literally every other item in the game is used by tapping? With the exception of the sword and shield, I guess, since you can charge the sword and hold the shield out in front of you (but also the game explicitly tells you how to do both of those things).

>>5314445
Shame you can’t charge the slingshot.

>>5302503
That minigame's fucking easy. The goron one is much more annoying and that one I won't defend.

>>5306237
>>5306264
This is were I failed as a kid and I was super pissed when I found the solution later online.
And how do bombs not destroy them?

>>5316106
>how do bombs not destroy them?
Because most of the puzzle design of Ages is based on arbitrary specific rules rather than logical systems with consistent mechanics.

pushing the sea urchin out of the way to get your sword in link's awakening is bad design because the 'you got a shield!' message didn't say i could push sea urchins out of the way with it

>>5307467
>he
Only female Kangaroos have a pouch.
Ricky is a girl.

>>5316334
Try again.

>>5316395
>the version that /vr/ loves doesn't indicate it whatsoever
and even so, repelling could easily be assumed to just mean the enemies that come at you bounce off of it. there's nothing to indicate that you can push the urchins with it. even thinking of them as enemies is a stretch with how passive they are.

if the seed shooter is bad design, so is this. and all the worse since it's one of the very first things you do in the game

>>5309560
You're full of shit if you've never gotten stuck in a game.
The difference now is people make embarrassing posts about it online.

>>5316420
the difference is we didn't cry about how getting confused for a second meant the game was badly designed

>>5316406
You're retarded, man. The shield description is very clear that you can use it against enemies. The seed shooter description does not indicate whatsoever that you can hold the button to aim it. It tells you the seeds will ricochet, which you can see happen whether you angle it or not. Every other item in the game clearly describes how to use it: The shield says it deflects enemy attacks, the sword specifies you can hold the button to charge it, the power bracelet tells you to use the button plus the d-pad to lift objects... the seed shooter not saying you can aim it is an oversight and a failing, plain and simple. It's a unique, non-intuitive feature that should be explained. Figuring out the basic functions of an item is not a puzzle.

The seed shooter should have a blurb that says "Hold the button and press [d-pad] to aim," and then that crystal should only be breakable with an angled ricochet shot and not accessible by bombs or any other item. THAT would be a satisfying puzzle: Learn some mechanics and then figure out how to apply them to proceed.

As it is, the whole "puzzle" is just figuring out that you can angle the seed shooter in the first place, then aiming directly at the crystal and firing, no ricochet required. Not a satisfying puzzle, just a frustrating lack of basic information. I haven't looked up the answer to ANY OTHER puzzle in the game and I generally hate using guides because I want to do shit for myself, but this one thing is just plain bad.

>>5316432
the ricocheting is only useful if used diagonally lol. the game isn't badly designed because you couldn't (and i guess still can't) think that through.
also what? the puzzle absolutely requires ricocheting. all this whining and you don't even actually know what you're talking about

>>5316440
>the puzzle absolutely requires ricocheting
It doesn't. I literally just stood to the left, aimed directly at the crystal, and fired. I did it just the other day, man, I remember how it went down.

>>5316440
>the ricocheting is only useful if used diagonally lol
No, because you can aim straight at an angled surface and it would redirect the seed. In fact, there are puzzles within that very dungeon which use that as a mechanic.

>>5316460
That's how you beat the boss.

>>5316445
huh. i don't think that's how you're supposed to do it. i think you're supposed to aim at the wall to the left so it bounces off that, the top wall then into the crystal.
like i said earlier, the puzzle would probably be better if the opening for the seed was smaller so you couldn't misinterpret it like that. the ricocheting makes it a lot more satisfying to figure out

>>5316460
i know but that's not until later. i'm talking about what you should be able to infer from the item description as soon as you get and start using the item. not specific gimmick things that come afterwards

>>5316462
You beat the boss by aiming straight at the wall and hitting it directly behind you. There are multiple rooms which contain these paddles that change angle when you hit a switch and if you shoot straight at them they bounce the seed 90 degrees. Angling the shooter itself isn't required to make the ricochet useful because there are angled surfaces in the game.

>>5316470
>i know but that's not until later.
Because I didn't know how to angle the shooter, I ended up wandering back down to the basement level and solving the room with the switch and paddles in it. So I actually had SEEN the usefulness of the ricochet when used on angled surfaces, which I thought was the whole point of the ricochet mechanic. At that point I had exhausted every room I could access in the dungeon and that crystal was the last thing I had left to do.

After being stuck for a couple hours I decided to look it up because it made no sense (the only thing in the whole game I've looked up, too). That's when I found out you hold the button to aim and it just made me mad because that's such a fucking basic thing that should have been described by the item text just like every other item does. Then I just aimed at the crystal and broke it and felt even more let down because it wasn't a puzzle, it was just arbitrarily hidden information regarding the basic mechanics at my disposal.

So I’ve been playing seasons and haven’t had to use a guide so far. But I’ve been stuck on lost woods for a few days now.

I don’t want to look up the answer but would an anon mind giving me a hint or something? Does it have to do with the stump to change seasons? Is it to do with that deku who goes “doo dee dee” and wants me to play with him?

Is it just bs where I’m supposed to trial and error my way into the right path like the lost woods of zelda 1?

>>5305246
I always felt the same, from childhood well into adulthood. Used to turn down people's requests just because they said please, as that really got under my skin. Later on I learned to rationalize that word away as a demand, like "Please me", because turning people down over something like that is a real bitch thing to do too.

>>5312324
The second I read that line I thought how useless and disappointing it would be to ricochet if it couldn't go diagonal, because then it'd just be back and forth on flat walls, and just absolutely had to try. Within 40 seconds I realised I could hold it and the dpad no longer moved me. From there it was simple testing buttons to see if any would work. Then when it did move diagonally I felt a great ping of joy after expecting to be disappointed. That was FUCKING GREAT.

That anyone would have problems with this is a foreign concept to me. But I guess it's reasonable.

>>5316951
>The second I read that line I thought how useless and disappointing it would be to ricochet if it couldn't go diagonal, because then it'd just be back and forth on flat walls
Except that the game actually contains angled walls and you can see an example of one in a room on the basement floor before you even get the seed shooter. My assumption was that you would aim in one of the 4 cardinal directions and ricochet the seeds off those angled walls, and I don't think it's an unreasonable thing to think.

>>5316975
I was more thinking in general purpose, not for specific walls in that dungeon alone. It would have really sucked if they only worked that way strictly on individually diagonal walls. May as well have just made them points for a bow and arrow or something then.
Especially because as a kid I always hoped the tools would be useful beyond just one dungeon. The more useful they would be, the more likely that would be. Having them work diagonally exponentially increases that, because it would be so much easier to work into regular walls and puzzles.

The very concept of ricocheting seeds was awesome to me. My second favorite item in either game, right behind the roc's feather+cape. Certainly the most complex one.

I understand that not everyone is curious about or interested in things like that. And it's, like I said, certainly reasonable. But people having problems with it still feels foreign even then. Because that one line gave me such a strong feeling that I HAD TO test and know that right away.

>>5316787
If I recall right, there are two Deku Scrubs. The one who knows the way isn't singing. That said, the one who is singing may show you something nice if you give him something to sing with.

Holy shit, I can't believe I only just now realized that Gasha = gacha.

Does linking a game make the second game harder in anyway? Or does it get turned into a cakewalk because you have a bunch of upgrades and weapons already?

Also, were these the first games to do the ‘your file from the last game can be carried over to the sequel’ thing that a lot of rpg series like to do? It’s not exactly the same since it can go both ways, but still.

>>5319653
Your save file doesn't exactly carry over. You start with nothing like you always would, but there are extra sidequests and characters that reference the other game. Plus the real final boss.

You can also transfer your ring collection.

>>5319653
Each game has a difficult bonus dungeon in its linked game.

>>5316787
Finish the trading sequence.