/vr/ - Retro Games

>>5276889
It's insane the fact that game has a better art direction than anything Square has produced since.

>>5276898
>>5276889
Not really when you consider the director. Everything Matsuno touched was god tier and leagues above everything else Square created. Yes, even FF12, or what botched product was left of it.

Even Sakaguchi was aware of his superior talents.

>>5276905
OP here, I love Final Fantasy XII too. The story wasn't particularly good, but it had some amazing set pieces to it. The world was wonderful, that's really what made the game shine. And fuck it, I liked the combat and treasure hunting for equipment. I wish I had played the International Zodiac Job System release, but it's never too late for that.

>>5276898
EXPOSED BUTTS PANTS
X
P
O
S
E
D

BUTTS PANTS

>>5276909
It's just so disappointing thinking about what COULD have been if Matsuno had stayed on the project. Basch would have stayed as the MC for one.

But NOOOO he wasn't metrosexual enough for the beta japanese audience for some reason.

>>5276889
Waiting for you to post the "so good" game OP

>>5276915

>>5276889
Nice composite output anon, noisy just like scanline memers like you like it.

>>5276921
Here, have a CRT.

>>5276889
Also, for what it's worth: I've noticed something I really like about Metroidvanias like Hollow Knight was already present in Vagrant Story. Exploration where you find stuff to unlock previously visited areas.

>>5276935
also known as BACK FUCKING TRACKING

>>5276905
Absolutely
Only Ito could come close to Matsuno.

>>5276936
Exactly. I'm not a native English speaker so I sometimes forget about certain terms.

>>5276936
I don't really consider that back tracking or at least a negative form of it.

>>5277030
>going back to previous areas
Gee I wonder what that is.

>>5277038
I consider backtracking when you must go from a to b, then back to a to get past b.

A->B->A->B->C.

I personally think

A->B->A->C or A->B->A->secret is okay, as long as it's done well. Which is rare I admit

>>5277049
Nobody cares about your autistic personal definition.

>>5277050
Sure thing. No one cares about your bitching either

>>5277058
I do care about putting idiots like you in their place.

>>5277062

>>5277076
Seething.

>>5277078
Sure thing

>>5277086
SEETHE HARDER

>>5277103
OH I'M SEETHING. I CAN'T BELIEVE I LET SOMEONE ON AN ANONYMOUS CHINESE CARTOON BOARD GET THE BEST OF ME

>>5276889

I am the reinforcements.

>>5277062

>>5277108
Not him but you do look like you're seething.

>>5277143
How? I haven't responded in anger or anything. I'm laughing at how retarded anyone could take that seriously.

>>5277151
CAPSLOCK

>>5277160
Has anyone, outside of facebook boomers, used caps-lock unironically for "shouting" in the past 15 years?

>>5277160
Are...are you retarded

>>5276905
>Everything Matsuno touched was god tier and leagues above everything else Square created.
By being all largely unfinished messes with half baked mechanics?

Maybe when Quest was still a thing you could argue that he made good games, though you have to try really, really hard to ignore how every single one of them were horribly fucking broken on a mechanical level (more than your average FF, which is an accomplishment in its own right) and full of pointless mechanics that literally do not matter even if you try really hard to make them matter, but at the very least he released complete games because the Quest people had actual self respect and drive to make good games.
What the fuck did he do when Quest was absorbed by Square?
FFT is a retread of LUCT, but a third of it, with less mechanical variety and somehow MORE problems.
VS is a half baked Brandish expy where literally nothing works as its supposed to work, there's literal leftover mechanics they forgot to take out which aren't mentioned anywhere and it's again, one third of what it's supposed to be, with a lot of hastily repurposed content and major plot points and characters that go absolutely nowhere.
FFXII ain't retro, but it's the same thing as VS, except that this time Matsuno has a breakdown and fucking leaves in the middle of development, so the execs desperately scramble to find somebody to save the sinking ship, and they pick Akitoshi Kawazu of all fucking people to pick for a FF.

>>5277191
>By being all largely unfinished messes with half baked mechanics?
And yet still better than any other game Square has ever made.

>>5277439
Talking about jumping a low bar...

>>5277191
FFT is just as good as TO if not better. Really original TO is shit compared to the PSP remake

>>5277453
It either speaks terribly about Square or wonderfully about Matsuno, that a
>largely unfinished mess with half baked mechanics
is still the much better game.

>>5277467
Honestly I can easily name a half dozen Square games which blitz VS, but it's late and I don't feel like arguing. I'll just let you have this.

>>5277471
It's best that you don't. Of the entire Square catalog the only ones I think can compete with Vagrant Story are Final Fantasy titles I'm nostalgic about because of my childhood, nothing more.

>>5277482
SaGa is more fun

>>5277467
Those usually are. If a game isn't an unfinished mess with some experiments here and there, it's a forgettable experience.

>>5276889
I never finished Vagrant Story back in the day because I got really frustrated with how your damage never seems to improve no matter which weapons you switch out to and every big fight became a half hour slog of chipping away with single digits.

Was I missing something crucial and just being a huge retard?

>>5277987
You have to level up each weapon type and each season can specialize in a type of enemy, although far less important than the former.

>>5278025
And each weapon*
Damn phone

>>5277987
This is probably not as accurate as it could be because I'm really simplifying it.

So damage is calculated by an (Attack - Defense) formula, except that there are multiple values because of things like Affinity and the game usually picks the "highest" one.

Because of this you want to stack numbers so you're hitting an affinity that the target is weak to rather than make your overall numbers look high - considering the following example where the enemy has 100 defense and two setups where one gives you a 105 Attack value and 120 after calculations - the numbers don't look that different but one of them is dealing 4x more damage than the other (5 vs 20 damage)

Though now that I've typed all this, I would say you can mostly get through most of the game just by casting buffs/debuffs and optimal weapon using is mostly convenience from not having to open menus all the time. There's also the Raging Ache playstyle which is very high risk and I feel is mostly a last resort if you absolutely don't want to understand how weapons work.

>>5277987
No, the game is not really good in this regard. The system sounds great on paper, but the implementation was shoddy because you don't start with useful weapons that properly convey the idea "certain weapons are more useful than others".

Still, when fighting the second boss of the game switching between two particular weapons gave me an extra 15DMG.

>>5277439
>And yet still better than any other game Square has ever made.
Maybe in your deranged mind, it's probably the worst game from Matsuno too.
But given how the only games that come to your mind are FF, another bottom of the barrel example of quality, I'm not surprised.
Square is overrated, but they did produce some quality games once in a while, things like Einhander or the SaGa games for instance are far above VS, even the incomplete ones like Frontier, though to be fair it doesn't take much.

Even PE, which VS takes its attack sphere mechanics from, is a much better game, and an actually complete one.
>>5278034
>There's also the Raging Ache playstyle which is very high risk
There's nothing high risk in using Raging Ache because you are quite literally immortal given how your counters work, it's not a last resort either since it's a far better strategy than anything else on a NG run.
Sure, you can just stack three +30 elemental gems of your choice on something and call it a day but this is hardly functional on a NG run given how you can't farm them or stuff like Arturos gems like you would in NG+ cycles.

>>5278302
>Einhander
Not an RPG.
>the SaGa games
No.
>Even PE
Neither.

>>5278316
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
So much for the quality of /vr/.

>>5278320
You should have posted good games.

>>5277987
The game kinda tricks you into thinking elemental and monster type stats are the important ones but the blunt/slash/pierce stats are by far the most important ones, and you can cover the element and monster types with spells and gems
>>5278302
Yeah the defense abilities that reduce damage by 50% are broken as hell, cause they simply add 50% of the attack damage back your hp after the hit so you can actually heal yourself with them

>>5276889
It's certainly not for everyone, anon.

I do like a lot of its presentation. The visuals, music and plot are all top shelf, but the gameplay ruins it.

It seems like a never ending grind fest where the goal is to reach a new area, then struggle to do what was formerly normal damage, because the game is balanced poorly.

Also, I understand that risk was meant to be a way to keep chaining under control, but it's a pointless addition, because of deminishing returns. Like, if I chain too much, I end up doing damage in single digits anyway. So why add a mechanic that makes me start missing and doing zero damage after a while on top of it? Why not just make chains that go on too long just end up there naturally instead, and remove the "whelp, risk is high, so I gotta use some consumables" part from the equation? It's a redundant system.

And I do like games with depth in the form of buffs and debuffs, but VS takes it a bit far. Like, encounting bosses who take nothing but chip damage, buff and debuff, and they're my absolute bitch and die in a tenth the time. What the actual fuck? There's no strategy to that at all.

And the whole "using seperate weapons for each enemy type" mechanic... all that does is force me into the menu every other room. It effects gameplay in no other way. So again; why bother?
There's pop up menus that let me cast magic, but not change equipment? Again, bad choice. In a game where equipment has such a huge impact on combat, and is changed so frequently, why skip duch an obvious feature? Especially when other, arguably less vital mechanics got the right treatment.

And every single random enemy becomes a chore to fight after a while. There's just no fun to be had.

Last thing that puzzles me is why most stat gains are based on items? Like, I realize that all of square had an anti leveling system hate boner at that time, but standard leveling would have fixed so much about this game.

It's just so unstreamlined. It"s arcaic as fuck.

>>5278367
It really narrows down to "if this game received a proper gameplay overhaul, it would be balls". It's a shame because aside from the lack of a weapon pop up, every mechanic there could be tweaked to end up with a fantastic gameplay experience.

I wonder what could happen if the RISK mechanic not only made you miss chains more often and received more damage, but ALSO made it so that you couldn't chain as often.

>>5278331
I did, you just have garbage standards.
You didn't even explain why VS is supposedly that good when it's mechanically a joke and is not even a complete story in terms of narrative, it's barely put together even, and they don't try to hide it either.
Graphics alone, as phenomenal as they are, can't save an unfinished mess with no rhyme or reason.
>>5278367
>but it's a pointless addition, because of deminishing returns.
the problem isn't diminishing returns, especially since again, Raging Ache bypasses those and is so good it makes anything else already irrelevant.
The problem is that:
>Most attack chain abilities are useless, why attack MP since if you do enough damage to deplete MPs relibaly you might as well just kill the thing altogether?
>Status inflicting chains are useless and when they work they only waste time by making battles needlessly longer
>BAs exist
>The only enemies where chains could be put to good use are either immune(Night Stalker) or have extremely high Chain evasion(Undead Ogre, Death, Rosenkrantz etc...)
>Counters do FAR more damage than chains until NG+
>Chaining raises Risk esponentially after 15 chains(which bring you to more or less a 30 base Risk already), meaning you are penalized for being good at using a major mechanic for some reason, wtf Matsuno?
>Last thing that puzzles me is why most stat gains are based on items?
Character stat gains in VS are largely pointless because the focus is on equipment, they do not make a difference until NG+, which coincidentially also makes bare handed attacks and offensive magic useless by default, thanks again Matsuno.
>standard leveling would have fixed so much about this game.
If you put standard levelling you'd have to completely rework everything else.

VS is one of those games hailed as being deep and not for brainlets, but the horrible truth is that it's incredibly simple but clogged by layers of ill conceived mechanics that don't even work and make what little works needlessly tedious.

>>5278569
>You didn't even explain why VS is supposedly that good when it's mechanically a joke
And still far more fun and engaging than the other Square games.
>and is not even a complete story in terms of narrative, it's barely put together even, and they don't try to hide it either.
I didn't get that impression.

>>5278569
>>5278594
Anyhow, I'm just fucking with you, man. I would love to give you an honest answer, but the truth is I can't get into JRPGs anymore, so I can't in good consciousness play SaGa Frontier without wishing I was doing something else.

>>5277191
You should try to develop actual substance instead of just being a contrarian edgelord.

>>5277191
I mean it's cute that you wrote all that but don't you know that matsuno has basically nothing to do with the actual mechanical design and gameplay systems of pretty much all his games? He's primarily a writer who designs the overarching setting and storyline and even then square doesn't actually give him free reign or anything.

>>5278302
>There's nothing high risk in using Raging Ache
>dies 10 times in a row to instant death ostriches and whines about it for 20 years

>>5278640
Just like I did in this thread?
>>5278648
>don't you know that matsuno has basically nothing to do with the actual mechanical design and gameplay systems of pretty much all his games?
>Game director does nothing to ensure the game part of his games actually works
>B...but he's just a writer man
>>5278651
>>dies 10 times in a row to instant death ostriches
>What is Magic Ward
>Ever letting a Harpie to cast anything in the first place
The retards have woken up en masse it seems.

>>5278674
>>Game director does nothing to ensure the game part of his games actually works
go look for interviews where anyone says he does anything other than give a rough idea of what kind of scenario the battles are before delegating it to someone who actually wants to do it

he's not responsible for balancing or programming anything at all

Stupid
Block
Puzzles

>>5276889
the combat system is great. Vagrant Story owns.

>>5277050
this

Some people might call him faggot, homo, retard or even autist.

By their own personal definitions they're all correct

FUCKIN GOTEM

BACKTRACK THAT YOU WEEB PIECE OF SHIT

L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . . L O A D I N G . . .

>>5278758
>he's not responsible for balancing or programming anything at all
As the director he is responsible for that though, that's what directors do, or rather should do, give a general input outside of focusing on what they want to personally work on and check on the entire game development process, assuring the games they're personally DIRECTING are at the very least functional.

Which is why he's a bad director, because he has no idea of how to design a game, and it shows since any and all of his games are a mess, the fact that you try to say it's not his fault when he explicitly fails at his role in development is inexcusable fanboyism, one thing is not being aware of one or two oversights or glitches, nobody's perfect, another is greenlighting an entire system that straight up doesn't work, of which Vagrant Story is a perfect example.

>>5276905
>botched

I know that the game was "supposed" to have local co-op when you had another controller plugged into the PS2 but what else did they cut out?

>>5279053
The story itself was chopped up. Basch was supposed to be the mc for one and I'm sure it would have been much more political intrigue

>>5277191
You have not all rights on VS, playing it it is clear it was part of something bigger, like "evolve or die" or Grissom getting nowhere. I still think it manages to still be a masterpiece though.
A flawed masterpiece for sure.

>>5279009
t. guy who never worked on a single videogame and has no understanding of either the industry or the audience

>>5279170
>A flawed masterpiece for sure.
Absolutely. How can you even achieve greatness without having the audacity to reach beyond one's grasp?

>>5279170
>I still think it manages to still be a masterpiece though.
For what reasons though?
>>5279175
Very nice rebuttal and assumption.
But tell me about the videogames (You) worked on then and how does that makes Matsuno less of a mediocre director.

>>5279356
>Very nice
thanks

>>5278302
>There's nothing high risk in using Raging Ache because you are quite literally immortal given how your counters work
I imagine you mean that you could technically counter every attack and thus take no damage, but I have terrible reflexes and can never get the timing down.

>Sure, you can just stack three +30 elemental gems of your choice on something and call it a day but this is hardly functional on a NG run given how you can't farm them or stuff like Arturos gems like you would in NG+ cycles.
It felt to me like there's still enough gems/accs to comfortably "win through stats" through the game even on a fresh save, so YMMV I guess.

>>5277191
Redpill me on Brandish Anon

>>5281378
Brandish is sort of like someone made Zelda have sex with a Rubik's cube to make a baby.

>>5276889
It needed more UI tweaks, like hotkeys so you're not going through so many menus. It was still very good, though

by being a great bridge between RPG and ARPG while holding true to the PSX design philosophy and NUMBERS EVERYWHERE and you have to figure out Elemental numbers supersede any other. Its a great grim, atmospheric dungeon crawl with an intriguing artstyle. It is a headache to menu, a remake should have pre-sets to cycle through but the moment weapon fusing just CLICKS is a lot of fun.

>all these people crapping on Matsuno because of his flaws

Didn't realize I was in /v/ with all this bad taste.

>>5282653

>>5279053
>I know that the game was "supposed" to have local co-op
aw man.

>>5276935
Metroidvanias existed way before VS

>>5284354
I know. What I'm trying to say is that something I really liked in Hollow Knight was already present in one of my favorite games of all time.

This doesn't mean
>Vagrant Story invented Metroidvanias
But rather
>Something I really liked in Metroidvanias was already in my favorite game

>>5281378
Hardcore top down action dungeon crawling series, which has a lot of common elements with VS and evidently inspired it, but is a lot more on the action side in execution so no attack sphere to break the pace.
It is much more methodical than VS, especially since it relies much more on exploration and finding secrets, solving puzzles and managing your resources since weapon breaks, shops are scarce and enemies are tough and always too many.
You should play it, especially if you like VS.

>>5277151
Because you keep replying

>>5285202
Why would I not freely bump my thread

>>5285205
Because this isn't your thread, it's mine.

>>5276889
One word: Matsuno.