/vr/ - Retro Games

>>>/out/

>>521475
What?

You liked combat in Legend of Mana? Really?

How clunky it was, how not a single battle is a challenge at all, and how, if you manage to lose (maybe one or two times at all, because you were jsut so bored), the game would just resurrect you right there without any penalties whatsoever, making it even more unbearably pointless? Even though the enemies are every three steps, are unavoidable, and respawn immediately - all jsut to piss the player off or something, because combat is meaningless?

You enjoyed that? What sort of casual are you?

>>521482
>casual
>>>/v/

>>521453

>>521475
>>521490
I see. Reported.

This game, haha.

I wanted to like it. But then I went to this dragon bone castle place and wandered around for two hours and there was no exit in sight... And that was the end of that.

i loved this game as a kid went back to play it last week

literally impossible to die or lose, deleted the iso

>>521494
>>>/lgbt/

>>521506
That's not even my problem, though. I'm ok with it being a non-game or a full-on adventure game, but fuck me sideways - it insists on multi-hour dungeons and combat.

It's like somebody played Dragon Quest and decided to reconstruct it with action elements, but was an alien and could only superficially understand human things.

>>521495
Is that on a TV or emulated using filters?

If you weren't such a casual you'd have discovered hard mode, if you weren't such a COD kiddie you'd enjoy the massive freedom the game gives to you. Too bad you're both, so kindly go back to where you belong >>>/v/

>inb4 babbies who don't even get the theme of the game despite being told five minutes in

>>521515
Not him, but it's obviously a digital photo taken off of a TV.

>>521515
It's a picture.

>>521516
dude seriously? i loved this game when i was in middle school but there isnt anything to the game if you go back to it now. no challenge and hardly a story, the only thing that makes this game memorable is the amazing artwork, god is it beautifuly drawn

>>521516
>If you weren't such a casual you'd have discovered hard mode
Yeah? A hidden playable mode? Ingenious.

>the massive freedom the game gives to you
For every 15 minutes of amusing dialogue and non-linear quest taking, I get an hour of a horrible labyrynth with battles that neaither side can ever lose, because both sides continually respawn no matter what. It's like the game is doing this on purpose indeed.

>COD kiddie
I never played COD in my life. Reported.

>>521516
>you'd have discovered hard mode
A useful feature is concealed, while the default is severely dumbed down and is activated automatically without prompting the user?

really its a game about side quests. personally i think the jumi arc is the main one, but whatever.

>>521516
he is right about the battle system. even on no future mode, you can do infinites on anyone just by tapping attack at a consistent speed. also you move really fast in battle by wiggling up and down. not sure how playtesters didn't catch any of that.

lom is a beautiful game, but it needs an improved port to fix/rework the combat

>>521516
Nah dude, I have never even played call of duty, nor any of those city North American made Xbox FPS. I would save I have graduated into ultra kingdom as I now live in central Tokyo and have a vast library of famicom, mega drive, and pc98 games. I love dragon quest, ys, ... God damn it, I don't need to prove myself to you, legend of mana is just a shitty experiment. Compared to even the very "incomplete" Saga Frontier (which I actually really adore), this game seriously pissed me off.

>>521543
I think the dragon arc is the main one. It is the easiest one to follow.

I didn't like Legend of Mana either. It's ambitious, but I think it fails at what it does.

In any case, hopefully mods will clean this thread and board up a little.

>>521620
You're asking for MORE moderation on /vr/? Did I hear that right?

>>521625
I don't expect them to pick up everything 24/7, but yes, would be nice.

>>521632
In some threads mods wipe out posts that are even remotely off-topic in less that a few minutes after they've been posted. /vr/ is probably the most aggressively moderated board on the whole of 4chan.

This one board really feels like gamefags or neofag instead of a 4chan board, and you're asking for more moderation still. Maybe you lack a father figure in life? Just saying.

>>521645
If you want an unmoderated board where you can shitpost and off-topic as much as you want, I would highly recommend giving /v/ or /b/ a try.

>>521652
You're thinking in extremes, and I should not have to explain why that's both counterproductive and incompatible with reality.

>>521652
That's what we in the thinking business calls a false dilemma.

Legend of Mana did fall short in a number of areas. Visually, it was stunning. It had a lot of charming moments. The system to unlock various combat abilities was nice and had a lot of variety.

Unfortunately, the magic system was bland. Combat was incredibly repetitive and pointless. The game was far too easy (all the difficulty really did that I noticed was add more HP). There was a lack of a core central plot, in my opinion, so it really just felt like everything was sidequests. The main character was just a blank slate with no personality. If you wanted anything nice you had to mindlessly grind for days.

>>521670
"The battles in a maze keep repeating, although the player literally can't lose."

In front of this sadomasochistic formula, all you just said about the games up- and downsides simply pales.

I feel like I'm in the same boat as a lot of other people

It's a game you really, really want to like, but you can't reconcile the charm of the game with the actual gameplay itself

>>521736
I just wish gameplay was bland or boring. LoM's combat and dungeons are just wrong.

I have a friend who adores this game so was always interested in picking it up, this thread has made me think otherwise.

>>521670
I actually pretty much agree with everything you said, but LoM is still one of my favorite games. I can't even really defend that, but it's true. The combat is very basic and repetitive, but I don't know, I guess that just never bothered me. The lack of a real central plot was never really a factor to me either, and I rather like the whole sidequest aspect of it.

Like I said, I can't really offer much of a defense. It's just not a game for everyone.

>>521759
OP here.

I personally consider plot fragmentation in Legend of Mana well done and not a problem at all, for one.

Legend of Mana is, as flawed as it is, easily the best of the series.
It pains me that the latter offerings suck so much.

>>521790
Really? Are the SNES ones worse? That can't be true, can it?

>>521845
They aren't really worse, but legend of mana has so much good in what is actually good with it that it really is the best in the mana series

>>521863
Threads like this are where I'm reminded that the /vr/ mod actually loves us.

>>521880
Yeah, and you really, really need that love, don't you. Even if the mod is a little rough, it's ok.

It's funny how people get confused and mad when a game doesn't pit them against a tangible evil on a set path. The premise is rather simple - it's not a tale about a mute hero overcoming evil, but about the inhabitants of the world as they follow/explore various aspects of desire and love, culminating in the resurfacing of the Mana tree.

The episodic nature of the game only helps to highlight the various aspects (Niccolo's love for money, Gilbert's infatuation, etc). LoM is one of the best uses of the video game medium to tell a story that would not work in traditional media, but I guess most gamers just hate freedom and prefer the usual "here's your ancient evil porcupine/demon/alien/rape metaphor, go beat it up".

Fighting sucks but that's a Mana tradition and wasn't really THAT awful.

>>521902
>and wasn't really THAT awful.
Infinitely respawning enemies in a maze while you also respawn immediately, infinitely and exactly where you've died, so there's no point to anything doesn't sound that awful to you? Whatever in the world does, then?

>>521845
The SNES games are good but they don't have the lovely charm of LoM.

>>521909
I just progressed normally through the areas so I never had to deal with "infinitely respawning enemies in a maze". Not my fault you start running in circles the second a game gives you more than one path to walk on.

>hating on the Mana games

you've gone too far people, look at what you've become

>>521909
>maze

Aww wittle babby needs a mini map and a quest marker

>>521921
But some areas can only be solved through either learning the layout. You can't solve the Aztec thing unless you've been everywhere and have gained understanding of how the gates work, for example.

The tower is a maze with no directions. You can't solve it by being intelligent. You can only solve it by being diligent and testing all the possible exits.

You know, I think you're just full of shit.

>>521928

You sound like a 5th grade bully

>>521928
Did you just call me a babby for being bored of the game because you're invincible?

>>521936
He called you babby because you whine about the dungeons being mazes.

>>521929
>If a game doesn't present me the solution on a silver platter it's bad

>>521930
Good, some people deserve to be bullied.

I didn't play extremely far into the game, but I do seem to recall the cave area reuses quite a few backgrounds

Is that how the rest of the game is?

>>521939
>He called you babby because you whine about the dungeons being mazes.
Are you sure you're literate? I said the respawning enemies are a terrible idea when fighting them is a zero challenge, because you actually fucking respawn. Yes so do they. It's a vicious circle of wasting my time.

>>521942
>>If a game doesn't present me the solution on a silver platter it's bad
The problem is not with the mazes, you horrible imbecile. It's that while you're wandering the mazes, you fight respawning enemies while being invincible.

>>521930
You'd know, kiddo.

>>521958
>mazes

There's like one map that could be called a maze, the jungle ruins thing.

>>521952
You did, in fact, call dungeons mazes. That's what both he and I commented on.

>>521970
What about the tower? What about the caverns? What about the jungle?

>>521943
It's how the dungeons are. The game drops it's gorgeous art and makes you fight the same respawning enemy while you figure out the layout. You are unlimitedly resurrected for free with no consequence (you aren't even teleported to the entrance or anything, you are resurrected right there), so there's no point to any of it at all.

>>521972
>You are unlimitedly resurrected for free with no consequence
I wouldn't know because I don't suck at playing and I don't get lost even without a marker and minimap.

>dat absurdist humor

>>521973
That's becaus ethey are. The tower is a maze, for example.

As another example, the caverns are a maze. You have to look for dudbears in that one quest... and the enemies, which can not actually kill you, respawn every time you enter a new room. First you ahve to fight the inconsequential enemies as you find the quest trigger, then you fight them until you've found all the dudbears, and then you fight the boss, which also can't kill you.

That's the problem. It's not hard, it's the opposite of hard - it's impossible to lose, literally. It's just tremendously annoying.

>>521986
Yeah, you don't suck at playing games where you endlessly fight respawning enemies that can't kill you. How hardcore.

>>521991
Absurdism is not when something absurd. "Absurdism" is a concept of disparity of the feeling of purpose in a purposeless universe. Everything in LoM is the opposite of the absurd.

Some people evidently have trouble distinguishing between an idea and an implementation. The problems described here could be resolved by better design, there's really no fundamental problem with the story or concept of the game.

Nostalgia and occasionally coming across a game with an original idea is why you play retro vidya. If you want something that follows a basic formula and implements it safely, go play an AAA title. Personally, I'll excuse a less than perfect implementation in the name of trying something new any day.

>>522020
"Less than perfect" is not the same as "insultingly bad", though.

LoM's design philosophy is irreconcilable. It apparently comes from the notion that gameplay must be a prodigious time waster, but must at call costs refrain from challenging you in any way possible.

>>522020
>Nostalgia and occasionally coming across a game with an original idea is why you play retro vidya.
This is the opposite of truth. It's not like recent games can not have original ideas or something. If you wanted that, you might as well play anyhting that comes your way.

I dropped this after getting frustrated at its nonsensical "combo" system. I did a similar thing with Secret of Mana after finding out that you can't move during a magic spell from the enemy. What is with this series and horrible battle systems? They're some of the worst in the ARPG genre.

>>521645
This board really does feel like neogaf. The passive aggressive insults, the penchant for everyone to call each other "good sir" in the faggiest of ways, the political correctness, the tendency to gang up on the guy criticizing one of the board's sacred cows; it gives me vietnam flashbacks of when I went to neogaf. But I love old games (I don't call them retro games because it's not some dumb culture to me) so I just have to suck it up.

>>521902
It's admirable that you seek examples of storytelling that can only be done through video games. Alan Moore did a similar thing with comics when he wrote Watchmen, as everybody knows.

However, OP is only criticizing the gameplay. LoM is indeed ambitious and beautiful, but actually playing it is miserable.

>>522040
Cry more, your tears are delicious.

>>522064
Jesus, how bitter are you? Mana fans are the saddest people around.

>>522070
>bitter
I'm not the one bitching and crying about a game I don't like. When I don't like a game a play another; I don't go on neogaf to bitch and whine about it.

>>522079
I didn't go on neogaf. We're not on neogaf.

Look, you need to get your shit together, ok? Mana is a crappy series, but it's not the end of the world. OK?

>>521645
>/vr/ is probably the most aggressively moderated board on the whole of 4chan

Actually it's just one obsessive janitor who's on here 15 hours a day. Dude really needs to get a gf.

>>522083
>I didn't go on neogaf
Maybe you would be more at home there. You'd find some like-minded haters there and circlejerk to your's hearts content.

>>522079
Criticism isn't bitching and crying. If everybody circlejerked over everything, this medium wuold not evolve

>When I don't like a game a play another; I don't go on neogaf to bitch and whine about it.
Freudian slip?

>>522098
No. Like /vr/, famous games rarely get criticized there

>>522103
>Freudian slip?
No, it was a suggestion for OP.

>>522098
Make up your damn mind, Irene.

Why isn't there any good art of Kathinja?

I want made made want to like this game was that beautiful theme song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXSuAPqmSbo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Also you guys should probably be blaming LoM's clunky mechanics on its lead designer, omega autist Akitoshi Kawazu (the man behind the infamous SaGa series)

>>522158
**I think what made me want to like this game**

Holy shit I screwed that up

>>522158
Kawazu's a nutter, but LoM was directed by the old Mana director Ishii. I'm sure Kawazu, who was producing, was completely content with every single weird feature in the game, though.

>dat synchro

>>521759

I loved parts of it, but I just felt it could have been a lot better. You don't have to defend something you like, anon. It's all opinions and taste, after all.

I torrented it just for the gorgeous graphics, but after reading all this, I'm kinda sure I don't want to play it for very long.

I just wish there were rips of the environments online or something, that stuff is amazing.

So, which Mana game do you guys consider the best if not this? SD3? SoE?

>>523901
Secret of Mana/Seiken Densetsu 2.

It's the last one before everyone looked like Cabbage Patch Kids in drag.

>>523862
>It's all opinions and taste, after all.
Only conflict-avoiding simpletons believe that.

Agree with everything already said. Love the asthetic, but the the gameplay is dismally pointless

>>523914
There isn't that much of a difference graphics-wise really. SoM has more washed-up colors, that's all.

>>523901
>play som
>what the fuck, people enjoy this?
>play sd3
>oh okay I see now
>play som again
>nope, still worse

> thread for hating Legend of Mana
That's it, i'm out, people here wouldn't know a good game if they were bitchslapped by one.

I played for a couple of hours. It's a beautiful game, fucking gorgeous. The music and the places are great.
But yeah, there's no overarching storyline, it's just an adventure with sidequests. And apparently if I want the best ending each piece of land must be placed in the exact order and spot, and that's fucking bullshit because there's no way of knowing that.

>>524034
>ignore any argumentation in favour of misplaced attachment
>>That's it, i'm out
Good riddance.

>>523886
>I torrented it just for the gorgeous graphics, but after reading all this, I'm kinda sure I don't want to play it for very long.
OP here.

Actually, force yourself. There's some worthwhile and truly unique stuff here and there in art, music and story, and the terrible gameplay is entirely pointless from the very beginning, but not too annoying at first.

>>522158
I think you mean God King Emperor Lord Kawazu.

>>523926

>>>/v/

>>524082
>force yourself

This fucking guy.

I want to take a fucking flamethrower to this thread.

>>524098
Are you implying that /vr/ is only for people with no opinions whatsoever, however argumentated? I.e., a circlejerk?

Because it isn't, and you won't turn it into one, sorry.

>>524063
>if I want the best ending each piece of land must be placed in the exact order and spot, and that's fucking bullshit
that's bullshit. you're going to miss out on a couple of events, but that shouldn't affect the ending at all.

>>524114

Not at all. But it's certainly not a place for name calling and conflating opinion with fact. I gave my opinions on the game already, but managed to do it in a civil fashion.

>>524106
The game is terrible. But story, art and music are good. You literally ahve to force yourself to play some of the dungeons while yawning at one-shot-kill enemies who can't kill you even if you let them... because then you'd respawn immediately... although they also respawn when you leave the room. Even though they can't kill you, you will ahve to fight them again EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU REVISIT THE ROOM.

Gameplay in LoM is a vicious cycle of shit. No amount of passive-agressive posts like these >>524106 >>524034 can fix that.

>>524128
I called you out on a false statement. That's not name-calling, son.

>>521986

For a person that doesn't suck at video games you sure love and are overly defensive of a game that offers no challenge

Really the only downside is the battle system. I think someone here played for an hour and got lost in the forest, and is blowing everything out of proportion.

I think it was a game aimed for little kids. I mean, utter lack of challenge, repetitive button-mashy gameplay that appeals to kids but puts off adults, storybook artstyle and presentation, adventurous tone without a central cause...

>>521986
>I wouldn't know because I don't suck at playing
You literally can't suck at LoM, because, also it plays like an arpg and has enemies and dungeons, it does not have a mechanic for losing and nothing is ever at stake.

>>524161
>Really the only downside is the battle system. I think someone here played for an hour and got lost in the forest, and is blowing everything out of proportion.

OP here. Your assumption is incorrect.

>>524196
What song is that OP

>>524207
Uh, disregard it, it's some shitty accordeon arrangement commission I was fixing for a WWII veteran community.

>>524196
>op is the one person shitposting
can we just delete/report this thread

>>524254
You are wrong. Check the archive and dead replies, the mods went through this thread several times and wiped the shitposters.

Not only that, but, actually, most everyone's on the "yeah, gameplay is terrible" side. I was surprised that I wasn't attacked and torn to shreds for dissing LoM, but /vr/ has again pleasantly surprised me. On /v/, people like you would've sagebombed the thread or started a reaction image flood.

This game is so damn purty.

I played about five minutes of it, but now I'm afraid to continue because of what I read about the gameplay.

>>524280
The first thing I said was " the only downside is the battle system."
You're clearly trying to start shit here. reported