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/vr/ - Retro Games


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5170254 No.5170254 [Reply] [Original]

>New areas, weapons, and playable Maria
>New music and superior remixes of existing tracks
>Extra button to map consumables to
>Can fix slowdown and lack of transparencies through emulation
Why do people act like the Saturn version isn’t the GOAT?

>> No.5170259

can overclocking the console resolve slowdown?

>> No.5170272

>Can fix slowdown and lack of transparencies through emulation
No, you can't.

>>5170259
The slowdown isn't because of a processor bottleneck, it's because the whole thing is badly programmed. IIRC, they only had a few months to develop the port, but no one had experience with making those kinds of effects (the item get effects, the one where a boss item appears) on the Sega Saturn.

>> No.5170275

>>5170254
>New music and superior remixes of existing tracks
The new tracks are horrible so much so that they don't even capture the mood of the rest of SOTN. They're OCremix bad.

>> No.5170279

>>5170254
games that never left japan are not part of the western consensus

>> No.5170280
File: 9 KB, 671x527, 82889E71-1CDE-4F5A-B119-E25CAB115970.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5170280

>>5170272
Yes, you can. Load up the game on SSF and tell me you can’t you stupid faggot.

>> No.5170283

The Saturn version has longer loading times (well, you're emulating anyway, so this doesn't matter), but also some rooms were oddly divided into two. The game doesn't make use of the Saturn's superior 2D hardware for some reason. Probably developer inexperience, since the Saturn was a notoriously difficult platform to develop for. For example, the game doesn't use the Saturn's higher native resolution (704x448). Instead, it just stretches the PS1 graphics (320x240) to fit the whole screen.

For some weird reason, sound effects are pretty weak in the SS version too. Music isn't that much better - that's really weird.

>> No.5170284

>>5170275
It has the objectively best version of Bloody Tears. I’m sorry your taste is absolute garbage.

>> No.5170289

>>5170254
>own creator said that the Saturn version was shit and only made because some executive meddling which led to an agreement with Sega
>own company refused to bring over Saturn version from Japan since it didn't match the quality standards of Konami
That said, remixes were meh and the new areas are short and of so low quality they actually bring down the other areas in comparison. And don't forget the less than good coding and optimization. Only the small QoL additions and Maria are worth it. And this is from someone who would defend the Sega Saturn in an heartbeat.

>> No.5170296

>>5170289
Iga is a fucking hack and no one should take his opinion seriously.
It did have technical shortcomings on original hardware though. I won’t dispute this.

>new areas are short and low quality
How are they of low quality? They’re forgettable at worst but if they’re short they shouldn’t really impact the rest of the game.

>> No.5170417

>>5170296
Iga was the one who brought us Symphony of the Night. His opinion should be regarded as of some value at least regardless of what you or I feel about him.

>How are they of low quality?
Not saying they're shitty per se, but you honestly can't say they have the same level of polish and care as the other areas and that really clashes with the overall game.

>they’re short they shouldn’t really impact the rest of the game.
Yes, agreed. Therefore they shouldn't be neither a pro or con when discussing the Saturn version.

>> No.5170425

>>5170254
Because there is invasive, extremely noticeable slowdown literally from the second you take control of Richter to the end of the game. I’m a huge fucking saturnfag but even I couldn’t put up with it.

>> No.5170449

>>5170254
Don't forget about the double tap running which singlehandeldy make the reverse castle 100% more fun.

>>5170254
>>>own creator said that the Saturn version was shit and only made because some executive meddling which led to an agreement with Sega

What a way to mis-interpret interviews so they go into your favor. All he said was that he didn't make it so he couldn't abide by it.

Either way you make it sound like everything he'd do or says is godsend, let's not forget that SotN is a glitchy and terribly unbalanced mess. Why should I care about his opinion when they couldn't deliver something as good as it should have been?

>>own company refused to bring over Saturn version from Japan since it didn't match the quality standards of Konami

Bullshit. It was the 3D craze, especially on Saturn, there is thousand 2D Saturn games that never made it out of Japan. Castlevania 64 was also more talked about than SotN at the time in the west.

>> No.5170453
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5170453

>>5170254

You're forgetting:

>Slowdown
>Dithering instead of proper transparencies

>>New areas,

Mostly HELLA lame. This is done quickly by a B-team, not Hagihara's team. The sprite work for most of the enemies is dreadful. The areas doesn't mesh well with the rest of the castle. Feels like fan content in a fan game.

> weapons,

A lot of these are kinda cool. Some kinda lame. Astral dagger is cool, as is the Alucard Spear. Axe is alright. Woodland shield is okay.

The double-tap to run shoes are cool too.

>Extra button to map consumables to

That's really cool.

>> No.5170454

>>5170283
>The game doesn't make use of the Saturn's superior 2D hardware for some reason.

They'd have to break the game down and then completely rebuild it with a new engine. That's a lot of work, and they were given very little time and money for this. A proper Castlevania title for the Saturn built from the ground up could have been 10/10 amazing, and even better than Symphony by a mile.

>> No.5170458

>>5170289
also

>new areas are short and low quality

That's bullshit too. For one thing, not every port has new content, and when they do it's usually some quick thing so they plaster it on the box and advertise it in the hope people buy the game a 2nd time.

In comparison with the vast majority of ports, the extra content is amazing and has tons of efforts put into it.
For one it's based on beta unfinished material, so the intent was to give what was supposed to be.

Two whole new areas + their reverse castle counterattacks.
The areas are actually more challenging than most other areas in the game if you go there as soon as you can, challenge being something the game lacked.
One of the area is located in such a way it serves as a shortcut between the west and east aisle of the castle, whether in the original you had to backtrack a long way to get to the other side.
New musics for those areas
New enemies for those areas.
New weapons including one with a new special move, not just a reskin.
A new shield, shields being lacking in the original.
New bosses
Double tap running which makes navigating through the same areas (reverse castle) less of a chore
A whole new character with unique moves

>> No.5170459

>>5170449
>What a way to mis-interpret interviews so they go into your favor. All he said was that he didn't make it so he couldn't abide by it.

Nope. Iga said it sucked.

>I understand why fans who've never played the Saturn version would be interested in those features, but I really, really don't feel good about them. I couldn't put my name on that stuff and present it to Castlevania fans.

>—Koji Igarashi, June 2007, on the Saturn port[35]

>> No.5170461

>>5170254
It's badly programmed and also there's ugly dithering everywhere because they couldn't bother making use of the saturn's transparency capability.

And also it's jap-only with moonrune text, so that's another mark against it in terms of actual playability

>> No.5170463

>>5170280
Well fuck. Not the anon you responded to, but I learned something today. Thanks

>> No.5170473
File: 40 KB, 536x480, Sort_08d8f9_365172.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5170473

Meh it's a pretty big tradeoff. You get some new content, but on the technical level it's a big shit show. Dithering instead of translucency, loading after the loading chambers (wtf), stretched image. The new areas are kinda eh, a hallway and a botanical chamber and their room count laughable. New enemies ARE cool as hell though. This is more of the "bonus" version of SotN to explore if you're curious after beating the base(d) version.

>> No.5170481

>>5170280
That mesh setting doesn't work.
t. SSF user

>> No.5170489

>>5170275
>The new tracks are horrible so much so that they don’t even capture the mood of the rest of SOTN.
Okay. https://youtube.com/watch?v=EqXEsXpXvec

>> No.5170503

>>5170254
The load times are a pain, even worse than on PS1.

>> No.5170517

>>5170453
>Feels like fan content in a fan game
This. The extra boss fight + the remix of Bloody Tears is the special kind of anti-subtle that only a clueless fanboy could pull off

>> No.5170529

>>5170453
>The areas doesn't mesh well with the rest of the castle. Feels like fan content in a fan game.
This 200%.

>> No.5170532

>>5170529
Or 200.6%.

>> No.5170535

>>5170532
Hearty kek

>> No.5170537

>>5170532
lmao

>> No.5170619

Saturn version was shit. Deal with it.

>> No.5170659

>>5170532
Best post itt.

>> No.5170664

>>5170619
Nah Sonygger, its the best way to play SotN.

>> No.5170676

>>5170254
I'm going to code my own SOTN saturn engine like that sonic ztreme guy and prove saturn's superiority once again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G9WjiahYis

>> No.5170693

>>5170676
Quit being a console warrior faggot and just make it for pc

>> No.5170715

>>5170693
There was one person who was trying to do exactly that, but his plan was to convert it to a level-by-level game like the classic Castlevanias.

>> No.5170802

>>5170280
How do you have a not "?????" version of SSF?

>> No.5171164

>>5170254
it was a bad port fag

>> No.5171176

>>5170489
That literally sounds more like a Policenauts track more than a SOTN track, fucking idiot. Why would you post something that proved me right?

>> No.5171413

>>5170283
>The game doesn't make use of the Saturn's superior 2D hardware for some reason. Probably developer inexperience, since the Saturn was a notoriously difficult platform to develop for. For example, the game doesn't use the Saturn's higher native resolution (704x448). Instead, it just stretches the PS1 graphics (320x240) to fit the whole screen.

Imagine being wrong on so many accounts.

>> No.5171525

>>5170284
>"objectively the best version of Bloody Tears"
>not the SCV4 one

>> No.5171548

>>5170254
I wish I could play this game with analog, can't do the spells with dpad

>> No.5172093

Best way to emulate this? I barely got it working on Yabause and it crashes and stutters.

>> No.5172140

>>5172093

SSF and Mednafen-saturn are the least awful Saturn emulators. They're all kinda bad. SSF is a hackfest meant to run this game at full speed with no slowdown, so try that.

>> No.5173685

>>5170284
>>5171525
The SSB Ultimate remix is honestly the best one yet

>> No.5173959
File: 976 KB, 490x353, snes_music.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5173959

>>5171525

>> No.5175041

>>5170453
>牢獄
I love that word

>> No.5175078

>>5170254
>Why do people act like the Saturn version isn’t the GOAT?

Because it removed nearly all transparency and shading effects, it stretched out the graphics in an ugly manner to make up for the different resolution, the menu and map took 5 seconds to open, it had more loading times (the loading tunnels were not used at all), and it had a lot slowdown nearly everywhere.

>>5170259
You can't overclock the Saturn.

>>5170272
>Can fix slowdown and lack of transparencies through emulation

SSF can do just that, though. It turns the meshes into real transparency, and you can set the dot clock to 4x to make the VDP1 behave as if it was faster.

It still doesn't look as good as the PSX version, but it's quite a bit more playable.

>> No.5175134

>>5170283
>The game doesn't make use of the Saturn's superior 2D hardware for some reason.
Saturn had a tilemapper 2d chip, but SOTN was specifically built on framebuffer, so a tilemapper doesn't help it too much. The big problem is that Saturn doesn't have a mode that allows both sprite transparency, shading, and background priorities. It can do either sprite blending (but then all sprites are the same depth), or it can do paletted sprites where some of the palette bits act as priority and/or blending (but then you can't blend two sprites together).

SOTN on Saturn used the tilemapper a ton, and actually had a lot of transparencies where applicable (the extra arenas were built with those in mind). But this mostly just boils down to very simple things like the lanterns on the wall blending with the background.

Even worse, if you do paletted sprites, shading is a BITCH to get working (you have to precalculate your palette with the shading added). But they did get it working.

It is true that they could've done a better job with the transparencies, but the shading would've been way too difficult to do, and all the background priorities would had to be re-thought. This was a hardware problem on the Saturn.

>the game doesn't use the Saturn's higher native resolution (704x448). Instead, it just stretches the PS1 graphics (320x240)
Saturn can natively do 320x240, but the PSX game runs in 256x224, which the Saturn can't do. It's one of the biggest shortcomings of the console IMO, because with a 256px mode, it could have used a 512x256x16 framebuffer and show all the details and still have polygon transparency enabled.


>>5173959
incidentally, Beavis & Butthead was a much better game on the Megadrive than on the SNES. And had better sound/music too.

>> No.5175151

>>5175134
to detail this a bit more Saturn can do either RGB sprites or palette sprites.

RGB sprites can do RGB shading, and can do sprite to sprite transparency. They use 15-bit colour, so 32768 colours (all can be shaded). The 16th bit is used to select between RGB or Palette sprites. This mode requires a 16-bit framebuffer.

Palette mode has the VDP1 writing palette entries into the framebuffer, not colours. The palette entries are then turned into colours by the VDP2. Since sprite blending is done on VDP1 level, doing blending means you completely corrupt your palette entry, so it cannot be done. On the up side, you can set a few pixels of your framebuffer data to be used as background priority or blending. With those you can tell, on a per-pixel basis, if a sprite should be above or below backgrounds, and if it should be blended with backgrounds. You only have a few bits in total for this, and you have to set up how many of those you use for what purpose. If you use a 16-bit framebuffer, then you have more data available for colour, blending, and priority bits, than in 8-bit framebuffer.

Hardware shading also works on RGB level, and with palettes it corrupts your shading/priority values. There is a trick though. If you only shade the red colour, that corresponds with the palette index number. That allows you to do 5bit shading (+/- 31 steps). However, you are doing this by ramping palette indexes, so you have to write pre-shaded colours into the palette. This was time consuming - but SOTN on Saturn did it.

>>5170454
>A proper Castlevania title for the Saturn built from the ground up could have been 10/10 amazing, and even better than Symphony by a mile.

Not really. They couldn't have done half the special effects on the Saturn, that they could on the Playstation.
They could've used higher resolution though, and maybe have more animation, but that means they have to work on all of that.

>> No.5175160

>>5175151
So you can either
- shade and blend polygons but then all polygons are basically 1 background, and you can't blend polygons to backgrounds (unless you blend ALL polygons)

or

- you can mix polygons and backgrounds together on the Z plane (ie. a sprite can go below or above a background), and have a sprite and a background blend, but you get a lower colour depth (2048 vs 32768), you can't blend sprites to eachother, and shading is extremely difficult.

This setup is just not suitable for SOTN, because it does a ton of shading, sprite to sprite blending, sprite to BG blending, and sprites can appear above and below backgrounds.
The Saturn team had to sacrifice blending and use meshes because of this. To their credit, the game still used a ton of sprite to BG blending, as well as still having some shading present. To make SOTN look any better, they would've had to redesign the game so all sprites must appear above backgrounds, and then they could use much more sprite-to-bg blending in certain situations. But that would have removed many layers of parallax, and it wouldn't allow for free sprite to sprite blending, just slightly more sprite to background ones.

>> No.5175170

the new areas are ok, but getting the ability to run is a game changer
no one wants to backdash 24/7

>> No.5175179

>>5170802
>How do you have a not "?????" version of SSF?

You need a CD drive to be able to run it. Virtual one will do, but it'll error out if you run it with no optical drive.

>>5170283
>For some weird reason, sound effects are pretty weak in the SS version too. Music isn't that much better - that's really weird.

Sound is worse because the Saturn lacks hardware sound compression, so it effectively deals with 1/4th the memory for sample data. So it has to use worse quality samples.

Music quality should be identical though. It used a Konami ADPCM sound stream for music.

>> No.5175223

What's the best version of ssf and where can I get it? Thanks frens.

>> No.5175232

>>5175223
Latest test version from the official site.

http://www.geocities.jp/mj3kj8o5/ssf/files/SSF_TestVer.zip

>> No.5175241

>>5170275
OC remix is good though.

>> No.5175761

>>5175134
You're forgetting the lack of unified memory. Part of why the game runs so slow is that VDP2 (the chip designed for drawing backgrounds) ran short on VRAM and had to offload some of it to VDP1, which is never an ideal solution. Having to stretch the assets to fit the screen didn't help saving on space either.

The PS1 version also runs on an actual frame buffer resolution of 256x207, precisely because the extra VRAM space saved from not having to fill the usual 256x224 target could grant you a whopping 512 8x8 4bpp tiles (or 256 16x16 4bpp tiles) plus one row for as much as 32 shared palettes.

>> No.5175829

>>5175761
>Part of why the game runs so slow is that VDP2 (the chip designed for drawing backgrounds) ran short on VRAM and had to offload some of it to VDP1

It doesn't have to offload things because it is short on VRAM, it has to offload things because the game does things the VDP2 cannot do. Like when it uses 8 layers of sprites as a background, or complex polygonal backgrounds.

They could've made the VDP2 do more work, but then they would've had to redesign some of the backgrounds to use the VDP2 in some form, and they would've looked totally different. The church, the clock tower, and the underground lava cave at the least would've looked completely different if they didn't use the VDP1 for them, and background parallax would've had to be severly cut back.

>> No.5177001

>>5175829
>Like when it uses 8 layers of sprites as a background, or complex polygonal backgrounds.

I think I see what you're getting at, but all of the PS1's tile mapping are comparable to sprites in that case, there is only difference when it's calling polygon opcodes.

>>5175761
>(or 256 16x16 4bpp tiles)

It's 128, silly me.

>> No.5177163

>>5170254
You've never actually played the Saturn version, have you?