/vr/ - Retro Games

>>5127049
But if I came to Sonic Mania I would have liked to have some of this in Act 2.

What do you mean, the entirety of Sonic 1 is memorable as all fuck.
It is, after all, the best Sonic game.

>>5127051
Kinda glad they didn't use that concept art, looks like green hill at night. And what the fuck are those bubbles.

>>5127054
It's true, that game does have good zones.

>>5127049
how in fuck is this forgotten? in one the most iconic games of its time? this is zoomer level cancer and you need to leave.

>>5127075
Relative to other Sonic 1 zones, thought maybe that doesn't mean a ton. You're less likely to see a tribute to it. The music was the best part really.

>>5127054
Pretty much.

>>5127132
Most people remember Starlight for its music, but also because it was the "reward" after going through labyrinth zone. Also, the only zone to have loop-de-loops besides GHZ.
The main problem with Starlight that make people not feel totally comfy with it is the amount of untouchable enemies and many pits/leaps of faith.

I prefer Stardust Speedway.

Which also seems to be remembered more, albeit only because it was where you finally faced off against Metal Sonic.

>>5127049
Most people never get there because Labyrinth Zone kicks their asses.

>>5127054
>anything but ghz
>memorable
Nigga you can just turn off the game after GHZ, nothing else in the game compares to it. Why do you think they never reference any other zone from that game?

>>5127669
This. Whenever I play sanic 1 if I end up dying to the labyrinth zone boss, it's basically game over because you can't get any rings before the boss again

luv sega
'ate sonic games

simple as

>>5127054
>no spindash
>no dropdash

Sonic 2 has made Sonic 1 obsolete. Sonic Mania has made all 2D Sonic before it obsolete. Sonic 1 is the worst Sonic.

>>5127756
Sonic 1 is still good, but it has been surpassed in design by the sequels. However, no spindash isn't inherently a bad thing. It meant you couldn't just get instant momentum from nowhere, and you actually had to think more about the levels and try to come up with ways to build enough speed to get past obstacles.

The real reason Sonic 1 isn't as good is because of levels like Marble Zone and Labyrinth Zone that are completely at odds with the game's design and goals.

>>5127756
>Sonic Mania
I disagree. the levels were completely forgettable, the bonus stages are ridiculous in difficulty and design, the music was down sampled to around 128kbps so these faggots could make the download smaller. it really was a dog's breakfast of pure vomit.

>>5127772
-down sampled +over compressed.
wew. need sleep.

Not trying to be contrarian, but Sonic 1 is probably my favorite Sonic game after all. It's slower and more platform-y, the art style is more distinctive, the music is very catchy and stylish throughout the whole game. Love the 80's Japan aesthetic the game is going for.

Sonic 2 and on were just "lmao gaijins loved this shit let's make it all as American as possible". Sonic 2 was also a massive drop in difficulty. S3K kinda balanced it out, but was still too much of a "summer blockbuster" of a game IMO.

>>5127756
As other anon already said, spindash doesn't equal being better. It just makes the game easier. You can play the Sonic Jam version of Sonic 1 which has an optional spindash.
>dropdash
What is this?
Anyway, Sonic 1 is the patrician choice. It's understandable not everyone will have it as its favorite.

>>5127756
get a load of this nigga
one games are always the best

>>5128067
>>5128064
>>5127772
Sonic 1 is objectively worse than sonic 2 and 3.
FUCKING CONTRARIANS

"What's worth noting about Sonic's level design isn't the mechanics, how the elements influence gameplay, the interplay (or lack thereof), or the layered counterpoint (which it doesn't have). What works with Sonic's level design is that it's functionally similar to a roller coaster or amusement park ride. The lack of significant variation due to the shallow level and enemy design puts the emphasis on the game "experience" rather than the game "play." Sonic is all about experiencing the "ride" that's composed of the strong forward momentum. The more cool looking obstacles, jumps, loops, secrets, and enemies the designers can put into a level regardless of how well these elements shape the gameplay, the better.The more elements the player can zoom past, the more they feel like they're outracing even if these elements are basic or shallow. "
CLASICFAGS BTFO

"The amount of breaks in Sonic's flow increase with speed of Sonic's movements. This is especially troublesome. The better/faster a player gets at the game, the more likely they'll come to an abrupt stop. Being slowed by enemies or bumps is easy enough to deal with. But when you can't see an upcoming pit in time, it could cost you a life. Most players resort to memorizing deadly parts of a level to progress safely."
HOW WILL THEY RECOVER

"Sonic enemy elements also don't telegraph themselves to give the player enough time to effectively react to them. The fireballs and Piranha Plants in Super Mario Brothers reveal themselves on screen before Mario has a chance to run unexpectedly into them even when moving at top speeds. Many hazards and enemies in Sonic are positioned in a way that players have to memorize their whereabouts to avoid them safely. The more memorization these elements force on the player, the less play exists in the gameplay experience.
For these reasons the enemies in Sonic aren't designed to carefully shape, influence, and develop the platforming/action gameplay experience. More so, the Sonic enemies simply add an occasional annoyance/threat that increases the amount of memorization in the game rather than play."

"In Super Mario Brothers Mario can only take a maximum of 2 hits before dying. Sonic, on the other hand, can survive all types of hits (except for being crushed and falling into pits) as long as he has one ring. Instead of being an optional layer of influence on top of the core gameplay like coins, rings are integral to the players survival. Players need rings to survive, and when Sonic gets hit, all of the rings that have been collected scatter out from the player. This design creates a type of dependency on rings not to mention a degree of static space that is functionally equivalent to attack-attach-heal. As long as the player has rings and can pick up at least one after being hit, they're free to play recklessly. This static gameplay generally occurs during boss fights because of the enclose fighting area."

"It is not more common in Mario games. In my Mario Trio of Essays, I talk about how in Mario you can always see where you're going before you JUMP. In other words, you can always look before you leap. You can see the pits coming and JUMP over them. You can see the fireballs and the Piranha plants before you attempt to jump over a gap. Even moving at max speed, you can make informed decisions without memorizing levels. This is just how the Mario games are designed."

"Pac-man has branching paths. They may all be visible on a single screen, but they're a crucial part of the gameplay. Ghosts weave in and out to try and trap you as you move across the whole map to collect all the pellets. Paths section off and reconnect, which is necessary to make the game interesting."

"Sonic's branch design differs from game to game. I covered Sonic Rush's branch design in greater detail later, but for the classic Sonics there's not much to say. Branches are essentially different level sections or paths connected together. If any give Sonic path has a lack of counterpoint or layered design, then it doesn't really matter how much it branches into mediocrity. Sonic's branches aren't that bad. To be clear, it's not about the number of branches. It's how the branches are worked into the levels overall challenge."

"In other words, Sonic focuses on flashy, visual elements and simple challenges that don't layer together to develop challenges that empower the player and respect player choice. And Mario is all about solid gameplay where a few simple rules creates more gameplay possibilities than we can count all of which the player doesn't have to memorize level layouts to make informed decisions. Yeah, that about sums it up."

"I don't want to come across as being condescending, but would you really rather put up with all of Sonic's problems just to experience exploring a large level? Because Sonic has a lot of cool things that I love. But Sonic doesn't play itself. When I play Sonic, I can't experience what I love without dealing with the problems."

"Many often try to separate a game's experience from its "play." They're one in the same. The interactive experience (or the gameplay) is the experience of the game. Gamers who don't value gameplay over graphics/the "experience" value looking cool over being cool. I'll take doing neat things over faking it any day."

"Freedom is the power to do. It's player choice. Exploration is uncovering the unknown. Branched paths and secrets in Sonic have parallels to branched paths and secrets in Mario. Even though Mario looks more restricted, it has more secrets and possibilities to explore largely because of emergence. As much as the large levels makes Sonic "feel" like there's a lot to explore, there's less to find and less to do while you're looking than in Mario."

BASED. BTFO CLASSICFAGS

"The rings in Sonic, on the other hand, have a large gaping hole in the middle of their function when compared to coins. Rings aren't arranged so that players can grab all the rings they see. There are moments when the rings are arranged in large groups that the player can pass through only once. Because some rings can't be obtained in one play through, the encouraging function of the rings becomes diminished. For these rings, instead of saying "you can do it. keep trying," they say, "too bad you missed. better luck next time."

"Every coin in Super Mario Brothers was carefully arranged so that they weren't put in the path that the player must go through to progress. Coins are a reward for going out of one's way, not taking the only path available. This design makes each coin earned and well valued. In Sonic, rings are placed in areas that players must go through including on platforms, over springs, and around loops. These rings feel like pity offerings."

"Because the ring count isn't carried over from level to level, suspension isn't created. In Mario, players can develop strategies around collecting rings across multiple levels to earn extra lives. In Sonic, all efforts to collect rings to earn extra lives must be completed before the end of each level. If you reach the end with 99 rings, that's just too bad. You'll start with 0 rings at the beginning of the next level.
In Super Mario Brothers Mario can only take a maximum of 2 hits before dying. Sonic, on the other hand, can survive all types of hits (except for being crushed and falling into pits) as long as he has one ring. Instead of being an optional layer of influence on top of the core gameplay like coins, rings are integral to the players survival. Players need rings to survive, and when Sonic gets hit, all of the rings that have been collected scatter out from the player. This design creates a type of dependency on rings not to mention a degree of static space that is functionally equivalent to attack-attach-heal. As long as the player has rings and can pick up at least one after being hit, they're free to play recklessly. This static gameplay generally occurs during boss fights because of the enclose fighting area."

>>5128127
>>5128129
>>5128132
>>5128138
People who write stuff like this can't see why kids like cinnamon toast crunch.

"I played through all the 2D Sonic games before writing these articles. Bottomless pits are not a recent complaint of Sonic games. Gamers have been complaining about these for a very long time. And even though Mario has lots of pits, the way the game is designed, you never have to question whether a pit will kill you or drop you to a lower area. All of the pits kill you. This makes Mario's pit design much clearer to the player than Sonic's pits."

MARIO PITS ARE BETTER

"The enemies in Sonic don't feature much interplay. They're either slowly moving about, throwing/shooting projectiles, and/or exposing their spikes. The enemies are are either alive or completely destroyed. The enemies aren't typically arranged to layer together or positioned in a way to influence the player to maneuver in unique ways. As players zoom through each level, the enemies are either destroyed in the process or left behind and forgotten. You can read more about the interplay of Mario enemies here."

SONIC DOESNT HAVE INTERPLAY

"Sonic is much more aggressive than Mario. With the ability to curl up into a spiky ball, sonic can destroy enemies while rolling along the ground or traveling through the air. While in the air Sonic can attack enemies from above, below, or from the sides. This design reduces the amount of influence a single enemy has on the player when compared to the Mario enemies. Instead of forcing the player to jump on top of the enemies to defeat them thus engaging the game's core dynamic (gravity), Sonic can barrel through enemies in so many ways that the enemies hardly influence players at all. As long as Sonic is in ball form, for the most part, he's safe."

MUH ROLLING IS GOOD

"Contrary to what many believe, the classic Sonic games (Sonic 1, 2, and 3) aren't so much about speed as they are about flow. However, moving between one game idea and the next smoothly isn't a quality exclusive to Sonic. Even Mario and Mega Man have the ability to go from the beginning of a level to the end without stopping. At their best, the Sonic games create a strong sense of forward momentum. At their worst, the player is stopped frequently and slowed to a crawl progressing through gameplay ideas that aren't very interesting."

"The 2D Sonic games have always wrestled with the limitations of the screen display. The faster Sonic moves, the harder it is for players to see upcoming hazards in time to make informed decisions. If you can't see that bump or rock coming, they become jarring stops in the flowing action. Mario was carefully designed so that players can always make accurate decisions about the upcoming challenges. Read more about Mario's design here."

"The amount of breaks in Sonic's flow increase with speed of Sonic's movements. This is especially troublesome. The better/faster a player gets at the game, the more likely they'll come to an abrupt stop. Being slowed by enemies or bumps is easy enough to deal with. But when you can't see an upcoming pit in time, it could cost you a life. Most players resort to memorizing deadly parts of a level to progress safely.
Many of the branching paths that Sonic is so well known for aren't very different from each other. Often times, the difference between one path and a branching path is merely a couple of steps before the paths recombine.
The amount of level transformation is low, and even these examples don't influence the core gameplay significantly. In other words, the occasional push block or breakaway wall are either required for progression or they open up access to a branched path.Without enough level transformative abilities, players move through the level instead of expressing themselves by actively changing it."
SONIC HAS LOW TRANSFORMATION

"The 2D Sonic games are perhaps the most popular example of this roller coaster design. Tomorrow, I'll explain in full detail how the core design in Sonic Rush has refined the core roller coaster Sonic design and why the two are my favorite Sonic games."
ITS OFFICIAL THE BEST 2D SONIC GAME

"Yes, Sonic features tight platforming physics that give players the ability to jump perpendicularly from walls, roll down hill, and loop de loop. But everything you described about Sonic's physics is just normal gameplay interactions. In just about any platformer, the player can/will get more comfortable with the mechanics and learn to use them more precisely to explore more of what the game has to offer. This quality is the same with
Mario, Sonic, Metroid, Mega Man, etc."

SONIC PHYSICS ARENT SPECIAL

"You say rings are Sonic's mushroom. If so, then there are too many "mushrooms" in Sonic. If every brick or ?-block in Mario contained a mushroom, the game would be too easy and the value of each mushroom would be reduced because of their over saturation. Now imagine if every time Super Mario is hit, many mushrooms fly out for Mario to collect. If this were the case with Mario, then the only thing that would be threatening in the game would be pits. As much as you say playing with rings is fun, their function is undeniably repetitive and static. However much you gain for Sonic's ring design, you lose much more."
FUCK RINGS

>>5128173
As much as I disagree with the author of this, I can appreciate the attempt to dissect games like this.

>>5128181
Not meant for that particular post, but all of these quotes.

sonic has always been sega's worst ip

>>5128187
Based. Did you read the excerpts?

>>5128069
Take a walk kid.

>>5128067
>What is this?
Dropdash is a new element that shows up in Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces. Basically, while you're in the air you press and hold the jump button, then release it upon landing but before you come out of your roll. Doing this causes you to do a sort of mini-spindash, propelling you forward instantly.

It's pretty great for retaining momentum and/or attack frames.

REFUTE THE EXCERPTS.

>>5127673
get off vr

>>5128226
Sonic is fun and it feels good to move around in the game.

>>5127054

Sonic 1 is polished and extremely memorable. Else it wouldn't have launched such a successful franchise anyway.

>>5127756

Sonic2 is a disgrace. Sonic 1 would have deserved a far better sequel. Instead it got a rushed turd of a game as a sequel. FUCK your sonic 2.

>>5128243
no it isnt see
http://critical-gaming.com/blog/2009/blog/2009/1/26/sonic-the-core-design-and-beyond-pt1.html
http://critical-gaming.com/blog/2009/blog/2009/1/27/sonic-the-core-design-and-beyond-pt2.html
http://critical-gaming.com/blog/2009/1/29/sonic-the-core-design-and-beyond-pt3.html
http://critical-gaming.com/blog/2009/2/3/sonic-the-core-design-and-beyond-pt4.html

>>5128254
http://insomnia.ac/reviews/megadrive/sonicthehedgehog2/
BTFO SONIC 2 FANS

>>5128278
>It's not fun, okay?!! These articles say it's not fun!!!! BTFO!!!!!!
Nah fuck you faggot. Sonic rules and no article can ever refute that.

>>5128302
>>didnt read the articles
>>too lazy to even read the quotes i posted

>>5127049
https://youtu.be/-Y_Tbtv3qfM

Pretty much the perfect summation of what the common person should reasonably feel recalling Sonic 1.

Starlight is alright and I'm glad CD improves on it


>5128064
You may enjoy Sonic CD then since you're oriented around the platforming aspect more. Sonic 1 has Labyrinth and Marble but those are rough takes on platforming in Sonic I feel

>>5128309
That's right, I am not reading any of that shit. What now faggot

>>5128315
Refute this>>5128290

>>5128309
Uh yeah nobody can read the articles cuz your links are broken.

>>5128324
http://critical-gaming.com/blog/2009/1/26/sonic-the-core-design-and-beyond-pt1.html
http://critical-gaming.com/blog/2009/1/26/sonic-the-core-design-and-beyond-pt2.html
http://critical-gaming.com/blog/2009/1/29/sonic-the-core-design-and-beyond-pt3.html
http://critical-gaming.com/blog/2009/2/3/sonic-the-core-design-and-beyond-pt4.html
Happy now?

"And... it was shit.

Gwuh? How can I say this? This game is a classic. Just look at any number of memetic critiques on GameFaqs or any random Sega fan page. See, it's good! I don't know, that's not what I saw when I put it in this year. Maybe it was my motivation. I was cleaning my room, saw the case and said "Why the fuck not? I've got time and Daimakaimura needs a break." No yearning to recover the past. At first I was unsure of what exactly I was feeling while going through loop-the-loops, half-pipes, vaccuum tubes, spring boards, getting hit, collecting a ring, getting hit, collecting a ring, bouncing on Eggman for eight seconds. Of course I now recognize it to have been the onset of nihilism. Donkey Kong Country might've been the game that truly brought the platformer genre into the dark ages of inanity, but it wasn't the outbreak monkey."

"Because simply put, Sonic the Hedgehog 2 is a cycle of faulty design endlessly revving spin-dashes into itself. And it all stems from its alleged highest quality: speed. Given the fast rate of scrolling, any type of serious opposition from enemies would seem unfair, for starters. It would be too difficult to react to more than the odd projectile or lunge without committing entire stage layouts to memory. Even nerfed enemies could prove challenging at top speed without a "proper" health mechanic, and we don't want to squander the selling point by making it unknown to beginning players, as they tip-toe around fearing punishment for wielding this fire you bestowed on them. So now we have rings, and an infinite potential for recovery from nearly any mistake. But an action game can't be completely without obstruction or penalty, can it? Not to worry, they've added in some spikes and a few pitfalls. F-U-N. Add a corkscrew loop-the-loop and congratulations, you've just designed a Sonic the Hedgehog stage. Now, maybe somewhere along the line, a game without these concessions would've been possible. But would it then have been the game that got the kids clamoring come Christmas time?"

"Rings. Fuck 'em. I could go into a whole digression here on how trinkets destroyed the genre, so I might as well. Either that or a paragraph on corkscrew loop-the-loops. You see, before Sonic 2, you had games like Wonder Boy, Rockman, Super Mario Bros. 2 (FDS), Jigoku Meguri, Wardner no Mori, et al. Games built on challenge. Overcoming a difficult platforming section in those games gave players a sense of accomplishment. They did something not everyone can do; they should feel proud. But it's the '90s, and console games aren't shackled by the doctrines of good design. And after all, a mascot platformer's battleground wasn't just on the screen; it was on the cereal boxes, and what child wants to send in boxtops for a plush representation of a character whose game they resent? We see how well that worked out for Bubsy the Bobcat. Rockman NEEDS those energy tanks now. Mario NEEDS that cape to swoop over entire stages. The value of challenge is gradually disregarded. And supplanting challenge for sense of accomplishment? Bananas, balloons and bonus barrels. Big coins, small coins, red coins, blue coins. Chaos emeralds, diamonds, stars, remotes, tokens, wumpa fruit, yarn balls, bottle caps, and last but not least, BUUUUUUUUG JUUUUUUUUUUUUICE! The sense of being Indiana Jones, minus that burdensome temple of doom."

"There's a reason I'm singling out number two as well. The stage design in the original game was more compatible with what Sonic was: a glorified obstacle course. No meandering. No choice to go through one loop-the-loop over the other, snagging on something from another route. All you had to do was figure out how to maintain inertia for as long as possible -- without the aid of spin-dashes, by the way. Later sequels, particularly the Dimps series, would do the obstacle course thing MUCH better by having a greater variety of props to interact with, unlike the inaction of watching Sonic pretend to be a bank withdrawal in Chemical Plant or getting shot through cannons for ten seconds in Oil Ocean. Don't think I don't get the obstacle course, either. The concept is not far off from NiGHTS Into Dreams, and that game rules. These courses are just exceptionally asinine. A small ditch with two springs on the sides, slogging boxes in Casino Night (a zone consisting of non-threatening bumpers), propellers in Oil Ocean that serve no other purpose than to keep you from progressing for five seconds. Won't even go into the underwater portions; even Sonic fans hate that shit. All adequate punches to the gut, because if you're not saying "Woah! Look how fast he's going through that corkscrew loop-the-loop!" you're not saying anything at all. Unless you're eight and think there's a point to that slot machine mini-game. Anyway, if for some reason I ever have the desire to time attack a Sonic game, I'll put in Jam and pick Sonic 3 & Knuckles, where I can at least control the tops, spinning cups, and decide when to let go of the pulley. I might even get a grin out of that for a while."

DIMPS LEVEL DESIGN IS BETTER

"It's a shame they chose to exacerbate the original's flaws by playing up the razzle-dazzle, because everything else about this game is top-shelf. Sonic's surroundings are gorgeous, demonstrating a charisma not often seen outside the Mario series; not exactly easy when you're dealing with simple geometric shapes. But who doesn't remember what the grass in Emerald Hill Zone looks like? Or the opening chords of Hill Top Zone? The soundtrack, courtesy of Masato Nakamura, is particularly endearing. Just the type of melodies you need to help fixate a character in people's minds. Surely it's an experience not unworthy of a half-hour of your time, even if it's just in the Sound Test. And I'll admit, it is deserving of one toast. Without its revenues, who knows what real, merited Sega classics would've remained sketches in the heads of their creators."

>>5128361
>it's toooo easy!!!
Nah the writer just has shit taste. Just like you

>>5128361
>You see, before Sonic 2, you had games like Wonder Boy, Rockman, Super Mario Bros. 2 (FDS), Jigoku Meguri, Wardner no Mori, et al. Games built on challenge.

>>5128369
this is an insomnia.ac review>>5128290

Different than the sonic core design analysis of KirbyKid>>5128278

>>5128369
Nah but see, it's written down in an article so it's legitimate. If I spam the article it'll prove I'm right.

The reviewer was an user from shmups.system11.org.
he knows what he is talking about.
Fuck you.

>>5128393
Shmupfags never, ever know what they're talking about.

>he hasn't 1cc'd Sonic 1

>>5127049
>>5127054
>>5127051
as much as I like sonic 1 (one of my first games) Stardust speedway from CD is a more interesting version of the zone.

>>5128393
Shmup fans are just autistic fags who think everything should be bullet hell.

>>5128490
>>5128582
you have yet to prove this guy wrong (different person) >>5128346

>>5128721
What's there to prove? He places subjective importance on certain things that I don't. At the end of the day, Sonic feels good. For example, he says Sonic is more aggressive and a single enemy has less important to the player compared to Mario. But why is this bad? The fact that Sonic can "barrel through enemies" works for the game.

>>5127673
Because they all got done better in future games. The only reason they even ref Green Hill Zone over Emerald Hill is just because it was first.

>>5127049
It is more iconic than Green Hill.

>>5127756
>no spindash
That's why it's the best one, you have to use the environment smartly to gain speed.

>>5128105
No. The gimmick powers in sonic 3 and the shift from horizontal to vertical progression made it artificially long. Sonic 1 and 2 feel like progress. Sonic 3 was a step back in what the game was all about.

>>5128841
>>5128853
t.contrarians

>>5128898
Your opinion isn't some major consensus you fucking retard, especially for a series where all three of the first games were highly acclaimed and cultural mega bombs that everybody played.

>>5127054
The Sega Ages Sonic 1 release on Switch is pretty fun. They added the drop dash from Mania too.

Any excuse to post this again. Starlight Zone at 13:37.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-ef8SD9gUg

>>5127054
i'm grew up a nintendo kid in the early 90s now i am tearing through the genesis library. Holy shit there is some good stuff. Sonic 1 is good. It's a fucking great game. I hated it at first because I couldn't figure out the zones but each one has it's own flavor, pace, and gimmicks. it feels like it was played through multiple times by the developers because it does flow. You may not like the flow but it does flow. I'm replaying the DKC trilogy and it reminds me of the same stuff. In DKC you get all these shorter, more packed levels but the mechanics are the same. Bright colors, banging music, secrets, unpredictable enemies, and going fast. they did it in '91 though.