/vr/ - Retro Games

I agree

It's funny you post that because I'm recently replaying it and I think the power-up emplacement is a fucking mess and random at best and the map is not honestly the best BUT it sure did establish tons of feature that would become standard later on and totally changed the franchise. I've always regarded fusion and mission as it's polished version.

t. an actual 30 years old boomer

>>5120376
>I've always regarded fusion and mission as it's polished version.

>>5120376

Imagine being this much of a brainlet.

>>5120396
>>5120376
Zero Mission has tighter controls and prettier art, but it's like a "greatest hits" version of SM. I say that even with great personal nostalgia for it.

Fusion's bosses made me rage quit it many times. I didn't beat that damned game for almost ten years, playing it off and on.

Samus Returns felt somewhat like a return to form, but the 2.5D style made it feel too close to Other M.

>>5120376
30 years old is not a baby boomer dude. And would y’all stop with this retarded boomer zoomer shit?

oh shut the fuck up

>>5120376
>the power-up emplacement is a fucking mess and random at best and the map is not honestly the best
Stupid faggot.

>>5120349
>Why does this game have such staying power?
Because it has impeccable controls and level design. 99% of studios who make metroid clones do not understand level design.

>>5120454
>Because it has impeccable controls and level design. 99% of studios who make metroid clones do not understand level design.

OP here. That's what I dislike most about Axiom Verge.

It feels like the only mechanics indies really focus on emulating are making expansions hard to find, creating bullet sponge enemies and bosses, and constantly teasing you with closed off areas.

>>5120454
I also agree that its controls are what set it apart from others. People love critiquing it for floaty controls and how the later entries have tighter controls, but I feel SM is just like SM64, where your movement complexity is so deep that it makes it possible for you to tackle the challenges in a multitude of ways. Also, you can polish your movement to an extent where playing feels almost like moving a limb, and you get progressive enjoyment from it.
The later entries in the series just feel like you're always on training wheels while moving around.

>>5120613
That anon is right, the clones are bad because they don't actually fundamentally understand Super Metroid's design, especially the level design. Everyone thinks backtracking is an important feature, for example, but it's really not. There are only a couple times you have to actually do any backtracking in Super Metroid, and if you know what you're doing you don't have to do any at all. The map and your path through it naturally loops back on itself, and with each pass you're able to discover new paths and hidden items and locked rooms you couldn't access before. But what dumb indie developers do is make it so that you constantly hit dead ends and are forced to backtrack constantly to progress. You trudge back and forth on the map over and over and it's such a fucking slog. In Super Metroid that only happens if you can't figure out what to do next, and THAT only happens when you're a dumb kid who can't pick up on all the clues the game gives you.

One other reason for excessive backtracking in Super Metroid is if you compulsively retrack your footsteps with every single power up you get instead of waiting until your second loop back which will happen naturally. That's actually my yardstick to measure whether a game is a good Metroid clone: If my path through the game will naturally lead me back to (or near) old areas where I can then use my new abilities to unlock stuff I couldn't before. If I'm required to go from point A to point B, collect a power-up, return to point A to unlock something, then go back to point B to continue onto point C, and I have to do that more than a couple times, then the game has FAILED in its design. Most Metroid clones fail at this, and it's upsetting because I wish more of them were good.

>>5120349
>Why does this game have such staying power? Can it ever truly be surpassed?

a lot of times, when a game or movie or something is extremely influential, people who have experienced a ton of stuff inspired by it go back and check out the original and don't like it because its been built on so much since it came out.

somehow i don't feel this way about super metroid at all, i didn't play it until i'd already played zero mission, fusion, and a ton of indie shit inspired by it, but SM still holds up extremely well, its just that good i guess

The art design of super metroid is literal god tier. It will probably never be surpassed.

>>5120773
>>5120454
So what are the "good" clones?

>>5121294
this

>>5120349
Axiom Verge is very much a protracted "F U" at Sakamotroids in general and SuperMetroid in particular. It manages to be simultaneously an anti-collectathon and anti-handholding game, and its core point is pretty much "Hellllllooooo, Metroid 1 had a point of its own to it, you know!".

Also, it's not a clone, it's a modernist piece.

Time for a Super-Metroid-related completely-OP-post-unrelated essay of sorts.

For me the defining moment of SuperMetroid is the infamous glass tube puzzle.

The main hint for that puzzle is that prior to the intact glass tube, you encounter the tube that has already been blown up.

This one
<--
(cont)

>>5121637
Then, shortly after you pass through the area with the broken tube, you encounter the intact one.

Having seen the broken tube before, you are supposed to connect its sight with the sight of an intact tube, and figure out, that you are supposed to blow up the intact tube using whatever means necessary.
(cont)

>>5121639
Here it is in all of its glory, The Infamous Glass Tube.

Well, for one, it contains glass. Unlike the broken "tube" you've passed earlier. There is not a single shard of glass to be seen anywhere at >>5121637's gif.

There are two disfigured casings there, but two unconnected casings don't really constitute a glass tube without, well, The Glass Tube between them.
(cont)

>>5121659
Fuck, forgot the picture. Sorry for the spam of sort, I am improvising, some slip-ups happen.

>>5121659
Now, let us actually see the full gif, what exactly happens as The Glass Tube blows up.
<--

So, uh, the reason there is no glass in the first gif? The glass evaporated. Completely. To save on memory or something, I imagine.

What also evaporated is a tiny band of metal on the right casing, a tiny band of metal on the left casing and nearly the entirety of the metal floor, which is not all that well apparent on both pictures in any case.

The rest of metal is left in a disfigured state, having been affected with the explosion.
(cont)

what a circlejerk

>>5121679
Thus, The Glass Tube changes its look, so that it starts looking EXACTLY like the broken tube we've encountered earlier.

So, to get it completely straight, during the explosion:

1) All the glass evaporates completely, but not before flashing the resulting shards for you to see that there were, indeed, shards. Making it clear that those shards' evaporation is purely a conventionality. It, the game says, didn't happen quite the way you ended up seeing. We, the developers, needed to save on memory or something.

2) The majority of the floor and a negligible amount of metal on both casings both evaporate immediately without any flashing never to be seen again.

3) The rest of the metal, affected by explosion, is disfigured, not evaporated, by the explosion. The mass, the volume, the material, don't cease to exist altogether, their form changes, but not what that form delimits.

Pretty fucking arbitrary, don't you think?
(cont)

If I can just interrupt this wankery, breaking the glass tube is certainly convenient (and you can see them do it in the demo) it isn't strictly necessary, is it? It doesn't give any access to areas you couldn't access by other means, correct?

>>5121710
All of that can be summed up in a single sentence:

The Glass Tube was depicted having been destroyed in a highly internally inconsistent manner, because that way was the most convenient one for the developers to depict due to their own personal reasons that had nothing to do with the internal logic of this game.

Thus, the player has no business reconstructing those considerations, yet is forced to do it, since The Glass Tube puzzle is mandatory for the completion of the game, sequence-breaking excluded.

>>5121625
Expound on this in a spoiler free way, if you could. I'm only up to the boss accompanied by Trace losing his grip on reality.

I like the exploration to a degree, but the enemies are almost too tough (without the password cheats for one hit kills or invincibility) to make it feel fun.

>>5120419
Samus Returns's forced backtracking, music, and dumb shoehorning of Ridley into the game were regressions compared to Metroid 2.

>>5122881
I forgot to mention the Power Bombs. Served literally no purpose in SR other than to get more Power Bombs.

>>5121728
You're an idiot.

>>5122881
>>5122883
Certain aspects of it and its reception among hardcore fans made me think of that Eddie Murphy joke about a starving person thinking saltines are delicious.

Just the same, I hope there's more 2d Metroids in the near future. SR reminded me of Fusion in some ways. Maybe the next one will be as smooth as Zero Mission or Super.

>>5122890
>jumps around and rattles the cage violently
You be you.

>>5122863
So far, I can't really word it any differently - and shorter - to how I worded it two months earlier, meaning, I didn't have any significant new thoughts on the matter.

I'll just provide the link to my old post, it'll be quicker than retyping all that stuff from zero. I am sorry if that's impersonal, I don't want to retype that right now, and I am currently unable to rephrase it in a radically more laconic and up to a point way.

https://yuki.la/v/428170551#p428179160
and the answers to it.

I think that the next logical step for the author of Axiom Verge would be to take apart / deconstruct Metroid 1 specifically, but whether he'll have the balls or the insight to go that far remains to be seen. AV certainly doesn't do it, in my opinion, it just quotes Metroid 1 in a way, in opposition to later Sakamoto's games. "Taking down" Metroid 1 is completely outside of its self-delimited scope.

>>5121710
>Thus, The Glass Tube changes its look, so that it starts looking EXACTLY like the broken tube we've encountered earlier.
In other words, this is what people need to be paying attention to, and thus experimenting with all weapons available to see if something can be broken/changed in this area.

If you aren't trying to experiment with everything/everywhere on the first playthrough, that's on you. Just because you don't want to experience "Eureka! I figured this out!" doesn't mean it's actually bad design. MOST People are smart enough to not actually need their hand held through games. The fact that most developers (and all people who only played games where hand-holding was mandatory) can't seem to figure this out is pretty baffling to me, to be honest.

>>5123301
It's just that now, after all the preparatory work, made through AV's gamedesign, he really does happen to have Metroid 1 right in the iron sights. Whether he chooses to use that opportunity - and to make effectively anti-Metroid - or to ignore it, remains to be seen. But, well, the anti-Metroid option would be by far the more interesting one.

>>5122863
You are sort of supposed to approach the enemies with the cheesy "pc hardcore gamer" mentality, actively using your immediate surroundings to gain sort of '"unfair'" advantage over them. I dunno, if you are used to carving your own ways through the games, it just clicks naturally.

>>5120419
Which is why you should join AM2R master race. It's better than Fusion and ZM, and second only to SM, imo.

>>5120421
cry more

>>5120376

I think you just suck at the game.

>>5120349
Literal 37 year oldfag boomer here.
Ah, yes. I can remember first playing this game the week of release in '94. Kid down the street got it and a dozen of us faggots were all crowded in his room after school to watch the first game.
Unbelievable times.

>>5123365
Must agree that AM2R is a great Metroid game.

the Metroid games are literally the worst Metroid games, oh wait forgot we're on /nostalgiafags/

>>5124260

>>5120349
The game has perfect pacing. You never go too long in one area or without receiving a major upgrade. Plus the music...lower Brinstar always feels so alone.
https://youtu.be/Zj5DWB5a2n8

>>5124275

One thing i always loved about the game, or at least the initial experience was coming across a new or different area that didn't feel right and getting this hesitant feeling like "I feel like i shouldn't be here". The wrecked ship got me good with that the first time. I stood perfectly still right inside the front door the first time for a good fifteen or so seconds.

Not to mention all of Zebes before the enemies appear. The game has so much atmosphere.

>>5120349
Lol... 8 years? So youre what, 14? Get the fuck out of here.

>>5120376
>It's funny you post that because I'm recently replaying it and I think the power-up emplacement is a fucking mess
it's honestly pretty great if you're not a dirty cheater or a sequence breaker and you have to figure it out by yourself for the first time.

>>5121294
Within a Deep Forest

>>5121679
but how did they get that glass tube down there in the first place?

>>5124515
space technology

>>5120349
>Eight years after playing for the first time, and I can't get over this game.
>And to top it all off, I never grew up with it, I only played it in college (though I did play Zero Mission in middle school).
>>5124317
>Lol... 8 years? So youre what, 14? Get the fuck out of here.

Next time, read the OP...and learn how to use contractions in the English language.

>>5124207
There are special edition books of the Zelda comic adaptations; why not for Metroid?

Nintendo shafts Samus again.

>>5120349
I wanted to like Axiom Verge but there is no balance in the gameplay, it's trying to be too clever with it's power-ups. Just not fun to play.

Every Metroid game is better than Axiom Verge. Super Metroid wins for me with nostalgia points, but the GBA entries are superb also.

>>5120773
Spot on. Also, making multiple regular enemies as hard as mini-bosses.

AV isn't interesting or fun enough to warrant the effort.

>>5125423
Yeah Axiom Verge felt somewhat off with it's structure and abilities, but I found the story great enough to still be hyped for a sequel.

>>5120773
This shit is what made me stop playing Super Metroid romhacks. There's some good ones out there, but too many of them are based around this kind of "level design."

I'm sorry, but I just never liked the game. Personally I didn't enjoy a Metroid game until Prime - I don't know why... maybe it was the weird controls or the theme/setting. I did enjoy Castlevania SOTN a ton.

>>5120773
This.
Leads.
To.
Two-Playthrough.
Playing.
Style.
If.
You.
At all.
Value.
Your.
Time.

First you speedrun the "story", collecting all the exploration-related upgrades, and ignoring secrets altogether.
Then, after you have everything you will ever need for any secret in the game, right before the final boss, you backtrack right to the beginning and comb through the whole map once again - this time specifically for the secrets.

There is no "Metroid" left in this setup. The first part is simply a linear action-type platforming game. The second part is a collectathon openworld-type platfroming game. The game simply ceases to be a metroidvania.

It doesn't even fucking matter whether it "naturally" loops upon itself or not, if it is at any moment clear in which direction to progress next. If there isn't, at any point in the game, a NECESSITY to consciously reassess your environment, to challenge you previous interpretation of it, to consciously remember where you've been and to reassess how you interpret those memories as well, now that you have a couple of new upgrades. If you can get by with simply following "go here" environmental clues and get to the end just fine. Then it simply isn't a Metroid1-like game. It is rather a linear platforming action game with superficial Metroid1-like elements to it.

Point is, it is way too fucking generous to award Sakamotroids with their own genre, they are, by and large, made in a manner, that doesn't warrant that in the slightest.

>>5125501
>If there isn't, at any point in the game, a NECESSITY (regardless of however many times you might have an OPPORTUNITY) to

>>5125501
Incorrect way to do exploratory games:
If a side/secret passage makes it clear that it is a side/secret passage (even if only by means of contrast with the highlighted main progression path), then it must contain content I can get perfectly by without (since the game has probably been playtested for minimal completions as well) - meaning (a priori) filler.

Correct way to do exploratory games:
If a passage ended up leading only to the stuff I could've PROBABLY gotten by without, then it must've been a side passage after all. I'll take it though, just in case, thankyouverymuch.

Exploration is a process of persistent searching for something specific, not a process of blindly meandering and ogling around at WOAH SHINYs.

>>5125614
>Exploration is a process of persistent searching for something specific, not a process of blindly meandering and ogling around at WOAH SHINYs.
Actually, no, the first case is better off being called "researching", not "exploring".
I'll just shut up now.

>>5120349
Pretty nice read:
http://nickkooy.blogspot.com/2012/01/20-reasons-why-super-metroid-is-best.html

idk, 11-year-old me borrowed my mom's handheld label maker machine and printed "SUPER METROID IS THE BEST GAME EVER!!!!!!" and placed it just underneath the label of my SM cartridge.

Pretty sure that makes it a fact.

>>5124706
This pathetic faggot mad as hell