/vr/ - Retro Games

https://vocaroo.com/i/s1VStgdGD8tk

I want to try these games, does anyone have the pasta for setting them up?

>>5032626

SPIDERS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCipnmKq-aU

>>5032615
kek

>>5032785
spooky

Where are all the bro's bodyparts in Calendra's Cistern?

>>5033252
I really love the fire shadows. Even though they're ostensibly only there to ensure the player doesn't run out of fire arrows, they're still pretty spooky.

Whoever thought there should be an enemy that goes completely batshit before vanishing when you kill it, is a genius.

Recommend me some OM style FMs. prefer thief 1 missions but TMA is good too

>>5033567
Geller's Pride (T1)
The Hand of Glory (T1)
The Saint of Redmound (T1)
The Death of Garrett (T1)
Dirty Money (T1)
The Secret Way (T1)
Heist Society (T2)
Hidden Agenda (T2)
A Theft in Hightowne (T2)
Thieves' Highway (T2)
Of Thieves and Rubies (short campaign, T2)
The Unsung Villain (T2)
Greenbay (T2)

These are perhaps the most OM-like of them all off the top of my head.

>>5033579
Neat, already played and beat the first 4 you listed :^(. I'd love to do thief 2 missions but my thief 2 runs like SHIT, it's all stuttering and shit even with tafferpatcher.

Anyone maybe know how to fix this?

>>5033597
I dunno mate, you may have more luck posting in the troubleshooting section on TTLG.

>>5033392
Got the one in the chest, the one in the fireplace, the one on the ledge and the one in the garbage.

Whats left?

>>5033579
Reccomend more T1 missions... theyre tha best.

>>5033730
Gems of Provenance (4-mission campaign, perhaps the best ever for TG)
Calendra's Cistern (raised the bar for FMs at the time, very awesome but quite linear and out of the box)
Lord Edmund Entertains and The Vigil (two solid, medium-sized classic missions)
Augustine's Revenge (very large city/mansion mission, very linear but very well made overall, don't let the crude architecture put you off)
Nigel's Hidden Treasure (same author as above, this time it's all about cave explorin')
Prowler of the Dark (very small city/church mission)
Returning a Favor (the follow-up to Redmound, a murder-mystery in a power station)
Trial by Night (a large city mission with tons of stuff to do but be warned: DO NOT PLAY ON EXPERT)
Endless Rain (very large, open and vertical city mission)
Events in Hightock (large city mission, quite convoluted at times)
Autumn in Lampfire Hills (medium-sized city, pretty decent overall, from the same author as Calendra's Cistern)
The Blue Star (medium-sized museum heist, very nice)
Lord Beilman's Estate (large manor, pretty nice)
Sepulchre of the Sinistral (huge haunted cathedral/bonehoard-style mission, with some very devious DnD-like puzzles)
The Order of the Vine (mini-campaign comprised of a short prologue, a huge manor and an epilogue)
Bloodstone Prison (haunted prison, very nice)

worst missions of each game?

>>5033807
TG: The Mage Towers
T2: Kidnap
TDS: Killing Time

>>5033730
some underrated ones:
projekt hammer
deadly darkness
circle of strain series
gerome of the woodlands
hush hush sweet harlot
the final crusade
ranstall keep
cult of the resurrection
the docks series

>>5033826
Yeah, can confirm at least that Projekt Hammer, Circle of Strain, The Final Crusade and Cult of the Resurrection are lit and well worth a playthrough.

>>5033757
I have played :
GoP
Redmound
returning a favor
AiLH
Cult of the ressurection

I am the guy currently playing Calendra.
Id like to hear more of your favorite under-the-radar missions :)

Whats the wierdest FM?

>>5033878
>Id like to hear more of your favorite under-the-radar missions
Most of those listed by >>5033826 are lesser known missions but well worth playing.

Lesser known T2 missions I like would be stuff like Memoirs of a Dead God, Breathing Corpses, Watery Grave, The Cell Next Door, Among Two Storms, All For a Night's Sleep, Three Crowns, The Focus, Wicked Relics, The Plot Thickens, So Long Hammers!, Out for a Revenge, The Curse, Under Templehill, Forbidden Rites, Into the Malestrom, By Order of an Unknown, The Crypt of St. Lucian... really, the list goes on. There's quite a few underrated/lesser known FMs that are as good if not better than most of the most popular ones.

>Whats the wierdest FM?
Incubus is really fuckin' weird. Also pretty much anything by KFort.

>>5033878
>Whats the wierdest FM?
https://youtu.be/W3E0XJosoWg?t=2m57s
Other contenders include The Flying Age and Brainchild.

When is Downwinder going to make an FM?

>>5034261
The world isn't ready for something that based.

What does one do after playing Thief 1 and 2? They are so fucking good, nothing else can compare.
Seriously, what should I play next?

>>5034461
Fan missions.

>>5034464
And then? Do you just quit games and start breaking into actual mansions or do I get into drugs or what?

>>5034468
You eventually fall down the DromEd rabbit hole once you've exhausted everything, including TDS and TDM.

>>5034474
Oh boy I don't think I have that kind of time. Although I did always want to somehow use my art skills to do something cool but I don't want to program anything or deal with too much software hocus pocus.

>>5034476
You don't need to know programming to use DromEd, or most level editors for that matter. I've been doing that shit for more than a decande and can't write one line of code without everything bugging the fuck out. You just need to have a bit of 3D geometry knowledge. Most of the scripting within DromEd is relatively simple. Even a retard like me gets the basics, which are enough if you want to make an OM-like mission.

>>5034261
>>5034262
I would actually really love to see some work from him/her. They are full of ideas, if nothing else.

>>5034464
Are they actually the same level of quality as original levels?

>>5035146
Some of them are trash, most of them are average and some of them are arguably better.

>>5035168
Nice. Is there a lot of "Thief, but difficult" types of missions? You know, the stuff that puts 50 guards in a room and you have to restart 500 times to finish it?

Because I really enjoyed Thief on expert. It was, maybe the most of all games, really well made in terms difficulty. It was never boringly hard and grindy (think occasional Dark Souls moments) neither was it mind-numbingly easy (think Assassin's Creed).
I thought that's because it's a stealth game, which seemed to be more immersive in general, but then I tried Hitman: Blood Money which everyone seems to love and it was just boring fucking shit.

Also, is Thief considered to be very linear for stealth standards? If I remember correctly, Hitman had shitloads of options, but they never felt fun, while Thief felt 10/10 even when there was just a single way to do a level.

>>5035209
>Nice. Is there a lot of "Thief, but difficult" types of missions? You know, the stuff that puts 50 guards in a room and you have to restart 500 times to finish it?
There are definitely quite a few Nintendo hard missions out there with tough guard placement and difficult room configurations, but most of the hardest are very puzzle heavy (most often than not completely illogical ones) and keyhunts that require pixel hunting.

>Also, is Thief considered to be very linear for stealth standards?
Not at all, quite the contrary in fact. If you want linear, you have Splinter Cell and Tenchu for example. They're great games but they have almost none of the non-linear and emergent qualities that Thief has. My favorite fan missions are those that play like the original missions and sometimes surpass them with more clever setups and more solutions (and logical ones, too).

>>5035236
Thanks. What other (not necessarily similar) games would you recommend? I guess I'd trust a Thief player above anyone else.

>>5035241
I love the Dishonored series, it's no Thief but the level design is by far the best in a decade or so. It's just incredibly good all around. Quite a few people here dislike these games for various reasons but I think they're great (2 especially).

You should also try other games by Looking Glass if you haven't yet, such as Ultima Underworld, Terra Nova: Strike Force Centauri and System Shock. The latter just got a really awesome source port a couple of days ago so there's really no excuse not to play it. System Shock 2 is also very good, as is Arkane's Prey which is essentially a System Shock successor (and a very good one, too).

>>5035254
I agree with everything this guy said, especially the Prey recommendation

>>5035241
Pathologic

>>5035254
Will look into them

>>5035294
Thanks. Which version?

>>5036489
Pathologic Classic HD, if nothing else because it fixes the translation from Russian.

Playing the original Pathologic in anything other than Russian is a much stranger experience because everyone talks gibberish (poor translation), but the novelty wears off quickly. It's better to understand what the fuck everyone is saying (at least in a literal sense).

Is Between These dark Walls a sequel to a different Skacky mission?

>>5036775
No, but Endless Rain is a loose sequel to Between These Dark Walls.

>>5036907
Hmm... The description for BTDW acts like we already know a lot of the plot people

>>5033821
I'd Personally say Theives guild for TG

>>5037017
>>5033807
>>5033821
Whaaaat whyy? Why does everyone always spit on Thieves guild and Mage towers? Aren't the last three missions, Escape, Strange Bedfellows and Into the Maw of Chaos objectively the worst?
-no thievery
-more running away than actual stealth
-rushed level design
-the atmosphere present in the entire game leading up to this is suddenly switched to this fantasy evil grasshopper/rat land full of weird green and red textures

>>5037383
No, because what makes the endgame of Thief so good is precisely this fantasy evil grasshopper/rat land as you say. It's unique and totally awesome. The missions may not hold a candle to the ones that come before, but in my case I seriously consider The Mage Towers to be pretty damn terrible all around. It's entirely on rails and the towers themselves are total ass, especially the air tower.

I actually do enjoy Thieves' Guild.

>>5037403
What really sucks is that I find the concept of the mage towers great. Sneaking into a weird dangerous compound full of magic users to steal one of the stones sounds cool on paper, but came off as unbelievably rushed. All those weird bland rooms and weird map, plus the towers.

I hate the thieves guild because it feels like such a drag, plus I find the enemy AI wonky for me, one second I'm hidden than the next a random guard just finds me from across the room.

>>5037526
People hate the guild because of the shirt maze and claustrophobic design in the den, plus the thief AI are too unpredictable

>>5037973
By thief AI I mean the Thief enemy type... hooded guys.

*shit maze

>>5033807
T1: None.
T2: None, except maybe the last mission.

That was easy.

>>5033807
TG: strange bedfellows
T2: soulforge

>>5033807
Killing Time is a neat idea since it's a level that's completely vertical. A shame it's so cramped, I guess due to hardware limitations.

>>5037991
>>5038125
what don't you like about soulforge? It's like everything is cranked to 11, you need to be top-tier thief to pull it off.

>>5038467
Not that taffer but back when I was a kid playing Solforge I hated it because I was a sandman player who wanted to knock out everyone. -And in Soulforge you only have so many water arrows to shut down the robots. Also every step you take is potentially seen by watchers that will spawn more robots if they sound the alarm. So I hated the mission because I couldn't git gud. When I realized that one might want to occasionally sneak past things in this stealth game, the mission became one of my favorites in the game.

Thief noob here. I'm not entirely clear on the movement/noise mechanics.

Is crouching ever useful for normal sneaking around, or is it only used when you want to crawl somewhere inacessible otherwise?

I've noticed guards can make remarks on hearing something when you're moving, but I haven't seen them consistently do the same thing. Sometimes I've seen them do the same reaction for a Run/Walk (they remark on it verbally but don't ivnestigate) and other times they react even to a Creep (Slow walk) with a thorough investigation.

Is there a rhyme or reason to this, is it random, does it vary with guard 'rank'?

>>5038506
avoid tile and metal floors

creeping quiets your footsteps while crouching reduces the frequency

>>5038514
Oh shit, the frequency of footsteps matters? I thought only the sound of the footsteps was important.

What effect does frequency / noise of the footsteps have on the guards? Is it
>Loud+Few Footsteps = half-assed investigation
>Loud+Many Footsteps = full investigation
>Quiet+Many Footsteps = half-assed investigation
>Quiet+few footsteps = no investigation
?
Assuming no metal or tile floors (do even creeping+crouching movement on those make no difference?)

>>5038518
i don't know if the frequency of your footsteps actually matters, but it seems like you're just likelier to get caught if you're not crouching

also make sure to close every door behind you as sound propagates (you can also lean into doors and listen for guards)

absolutely avoid metal and tile if possible, creeping on them makes absolutely no difference. you get moss arrows to deal with that.

>>5038523
>you can also lean into doors and listen for guards
Now that's fucking cool.
Thanks anon

Aside from self-imposed challenge, there are no penalties for knocking guards out right? As in, they don't get back up during the mission if not found?

>>5038528
No, they never wake up.

You can also 'stuttercrouch'
This is when you crouch and tap the forward key rapidly in short strokes. If you do it right you can move at a good pace with no audible footsteps.

Also, bind 'Lean forward' to R.
It's very helpful if you accidentally wind up in a sword fight. It gives you the ability to hyper extend your reach.

>>5032615
wow
that's good stuff

Some taffer went and almost let this thread slide to page 10!

>>5033807
I'm divided on 1 since it's pretty polarizing. It had such great ideas, themes and atmosphere, but so many design errors as well. In Gold I'd say the worst is the Thieves Guild, but of the originals it's Bonehoard because of how messy navigation is. Also in Undercover I had no idea how to solve the level. Maybe there's some vague tips thrown in the middle of the Hammerite lore books??? Had to use a walkthrough. Being a rogue is cool and all, and I thoroughly enjoyed that aspect of the game. What I didn't enjoy is fucking running around the same map for an hour not knowing what the fuck to do. Also, in Return to the Cathedral, if you meet the apparition that you're supposed to help, you usually WILL run past it because you might think it's hostile, and then it fucking speaks and your objectives update but you don't know what the fuck to do. Strange Bedfellows has a bug with the hammerite not giving you the key. The opera mission is fucked since that entire map is a beginner's trap.

In 2, the Truart estate mission is buggy so I hate it, but I didn't enjoy the Submarine mission or the return to the lost city, or having to go through masks twice. In 1, I at least felt a real sense of crescendo in the story when the latter missions changed tonally, but I guess here I just don't think they did the atmosphere right. It doesn't really feel like you're accessing a secret Mechanist base and discovering all this crazy stuff like amazing elevators, drills, submarines, it just feels like another mission. The art direction is lacking in these. The lost city rehash or the masks rehash was weak too. The last mission was good tho.

In 3 it's the whole game. I never got far in it but I tried replaying it after finishing 1 and 2, and wow. It's Sonic 06 tiers of broken. Worst game I can remember playing in a long time.

keep in mind this was with all the games PATCHED

tl;dr
>1
Guild/Bonehoard
>2
Precious Cargo
>3
the game

>>5035209
Blood Money is one of my favorite games. Why did you think it was boring? The enjoyment is not simply from finishing a mission, which may not be that hard, but from (playing on Pro difficulty- no fucking saving, have to get your suit back, etc) trying to get the Silent Assassin Rank, and maybe just trying to finish the mission in a particular way that you like that is challenging. It's a supremely good game. Hell, in terms of amount and variety of stealth gameplay, it's way meatier than Thief 1 and 2. You always get a rush just from trying to time NPC patrols, knocking someone out and trying to take their clothes and hide the body before anyone sees it

OK listen up taffers, POST YOUR BINDS

(Thief 2)
WASD
>Run
Shift
>Lean
Q,E, T
>Item switch
Z and key left of Z (have a buggy mousewheel)
>Jump
Space
>Creep
Ctrl
>Crouch
C
>Hide item
R
>Hide weapon
F
>Drop
G
>Zoom
V (in), B (reset)
>Map
Tab
>Quicksave
F5

i specifically dont use any tryhard binds (lmao press Y for compass or some dumb shit) because it makes it more engaging to fumble around the inventory and try to have things prepared. Rest of my binds are pretty much default, numbers for weapons, right click is Use, etc

usually I have creep on Alt, crouch on Ctrl, but T2 is finnicky with Alt because it's a modifier key and was weird with letting me creep responsively with WASD, so I had to set creep to Ctrl and crouch to C. And of course, in T1 sprint isn't a modifier but a single button

i have the best binds ever, fite me. Only improvement would be to set Rope arrows to 7 for quick left-hand access of a common weapon, and remove quicksave but the games are too buggy for me to ever do that

>>5040431
>Movement
Up Arrow Left Arrow Down Arrow Right Arrow
>Run
Always run
>Use
Mouse 2
>Block
Mouse 3
>Lean
; ' DEL
>Inventory
Tab
>Weapons selection
Mousewheel
>Jump
Right CTRL
>Crouch
/
>Creep
Shift
>Clear item
Backspace
>Clear weapon (I almost never use it)
§
>Drop item
G
>Zoom
PgUp PgDn
>Map
M
>Quicksave
F11

I'm left-handed

>>5040458
>those binds
???what the ACTUAL FUCK nigga????????

im left handed also, and every single game input is on my left hand (damn near all accessible with just fingers, no hand movement) except Use, Attack, Block, Look.

i'd like to see some footage of you playing cuz that sounds atrocious, my dude

>>5040483
I'm too lazy to record me playing and make a webm for you. I've been using these binds for a decade across pretty much all the games I play and they're perfectly fine for me.

>Movement
WASD

>Run
Always run

>Use
Mouse 2

>Block
L ALT
and my third mouse clicky button (Right of the right click)

>Lean
Q = Left
E = Right
R = Lean For'ard

>Inventory
[ ]
as well as two of my 20 thumb buttons on my mouse

>Weapons selection
Mousewheel
1-0

>Jump
Space

>Crouch
Toggle CTRL

>Creep
LbShift

>Clear item
Can't recall

>Clear weapon (I almost never use it)
~

>Drop item
G

>Map
M

>Quicksave
Keypad -

>Quickload
Keypad +

>Increase / Decrease Ambiance
Up/Down Arrows

>Increase / Decrease Gamma
Left/Right Arrows

>>5019708
The couple of corpses in the cave system show that he is a ruthless man and that there have been many before you. I hoped the cave system could be used as an simple way to traverse the castle. Not just as a way to gain access.
How did you kill Thayer? I tried to drown him in the bathtub and dropped some of Bok's stuff in his bedroom, but the objective didn't tick off.

>new thief thread
>FM backlog size doubles
it is a good pain

>>5040828
Which is that screen from?

>>5040986
Pretty sure that's Lorgan's Web.

>Play the lost city mission
>got fire rune without problems
>try to go back
>realize you were supposed to activate bridge while i just run and jumped insted
>can't go back the same way
Is there anything else I can do without restarting mission?

>>5041264
If it's TDP then you can try to accelerate your jump speed with bunnyhopping to get over the gap. If that doesn't work in the arena, go to the tower where the Fire Talisman is and you will see an opening in the wall across the lava. It's much easier and theres much more open flat space to gain speed while bunnyhopping to get across.

>>5041274
>bunnyhopping
How exactly does it work? I'm playing gold btw.

>>5041264
>Play Blackmail
>climb 2nd floor balcony from outside instead of going through estate
>level design and guard patterns are broken, conversations don't activate, probably use gears on the wrong doors,etc
>have to fucking go downstairs, get the estate key, and up through another way just to trigger guard conversation and activate normal patterns, meanwhile I've already KO'd all the buggy NPC's in the entire level, use the key to get to Truart's room and begrudgingly jump off the balcony and run away

>>5041274
not him, but I recently finished Gold (with the fanpatch) and I could still bunnyhop to gain speed. If he said he only got the fire talisman, I'm guessing it's gold

>>5033807
>TDP: Into the Maw of Chaos
simply because it was without a doubt the easiest mission in the game. It took me less than half an hour to beat it as a kid, while almost all the other missions took at least a couple of hours to beat.
> T2: Running Interference
the fact that its kind of a boring tutorial mission aside, it was buggy as fuck back in the day and required constant usage of the birdcall in order not to fail the mission.
> TDS
I don't dislike Deadly Shadows. I don't think any of the missions score badly enough to pick out a specific one and explain the choice. All of them had memorable moments, loot, dialogue and text sequences. I kinda liked how every mission had something interesting you could play with, like climbing around to get the Kurshok Crown while remaining undetected, letting out the zombies in St. Edgar's to cause havoc, meeting Widow Moira, outsmarting the Wieldstrom museum's security systems and looking at all the exhibits, stopping the Clocktower, exploring the creepy-ass Keeper compound (especially Caduca's quarters)...

That game gets shit on a lot more than it deserves.

Question back: Best missions of each game?

> TDP: Bonehoard
The best mission for spelunking, avoiding traps, acrobatics and managing resources while dungeoneering. It was too spooky for me as a kid, but now it's my favourite.

> T2: Life of the Party
The common choice, but one in good taste. Exploring and moving across the rooftops has not been repeated in that fashion, and I like when games use vertical level design.

> TDS: Gamall's Lair
Not really a level, but I liked the spooky and ecclectical style of the area and the feeling of moving into the lion's den, approaching the heart of the conspiracy. Finally finding out about the Lifestealing glyph and that Gamall was one of the founding members of the Keepers was bonechilling stuff.

>>5041290
I prefer TDP so I'm not certain whether the fanpatch restores bunnyhopping in Gold or if it's been removing in Gold at all.

>>5041287
Bunnyhopping means that whenever you jump, you keep hitting the jump button as soon as you land so that with every following jump you build up speed. If you run straight across a flat surface and keep jumping like that you can clear immense distances after a few build-up jumps.

In Thief 2 you cannot bunnyhop. If you jump like I described above you'll not gain any momentum. You'll have to try it out in order to see whether it works in Gold or not.

>>5041274
>>5041308
Thanks for the help, it worked.

>>5041264
There's supposed to be a one-way return path in a building next to the bridge that lets you jump down from the ceiling of the 2nd floor of the bridge control building.

Anyone else play Whispers in the Sand?

That maze segment was terrifying.

>>5041492
Yep, great little dungeon mission. Be sure to play From Beneath the Sands too.

>>5040761
It's quite simple: Bok's dagger has to touch the body, that will count as planting the evidence. You can drop it on Thayer, have it slide on the floor by using it or even have it selected when you pick up the body. I don't know if the last one is intentional, but in all three cases you can keep the dagger and still get the job done. Apparentely the mere fact that someone stabbed this noble with a dagger, nowhere to be found, is enough to frame the thief who was his guest as the murdered. The judicial system of the City does things the easy way.

Speaking of blades, Garrett can exact his revenge with any of the two swords present in the level. A good addition to the usual "retrieve your equipment" formula: Garrett needs a sword, not necessarily his sword. He'll take what he can find and do the deed, and how that happens depends on the player. It's the level of interactivity that makes parts of a mission feel like a story we're writing.

>>5041832
Wot misshun?

>>5042057
The Death of Garrett.

>>5042074
Ahh, I did not see that the discussion continued on.

I like when people get a little further into the discussion of FMs like that

>>5040431
OK listen up taffers, POST YOUR BINDS

>Movement
WASD
>Run Forward (not run modifier)
Shift
>Lean
Q, R, Tab
>Item switch
Scroll wheel (-,+ in unpatched TDP)
>Jump
Space
>Creep
F
>Crouch
LCtrl
>Hide item
T
>Hide weapon
`
>Drop
G
>Zoom
[ (in), ] (out), \ (reset)
>Map
N
>Quick Save/Load
F5/F7
>Flashbomb
B

>>5040431
>Attack
LMB
>Block
RMB
>Use
E
>Movement
WASD
>Run Forward (not run modifier)
Shift
>Lean
Q, R, Tab
>Item switch
Scroll wheel (-,+ in unpatched TDP)
>Lockpicks
PgUp, PgDn
>Jump
Space
>Creep
F
>Crouch
LCtrl
>Hide item
T
>Hide weapon
`
>Drop
G
>Zoom
[ (in), ] (out), \ (reset)
>Map
M
>Quick Save/Load
F5/F7
>Flashbomb
B

>>5034461
The Dark Mod? It's free HD taffing and fan missions/campaign.

>>5042771
jank

>>5042840
Nice argument.

>>5034261
>yfw im /literally/ working on a FM right now called "traveling downwind" where the objective is to steal that intruder painting and dewdrop doll hes so fucking obsessed with

>>5044198
Is that you, DW?

Anyone have suggestions for FMs that are kinda "paying the bills" missions - no big plot or high stakes, just straight thieving in an atmospheric single map.
Preferably with either a Garrett impersonator that sounds good, or no Garrett dialogue. Also I like eavesdropping, and most FMs I've played are lacking in that aspect.

>>5041304
>Bonehoard
Overrated imo, but not a bad map at all. Song of the caverns for me, if we're counting Gold maps.. Had a little cave diving, and a fun bit of high society theft in a setting unique to the rest of the game.

>>5041832
I threw Thayer in the bathtub and dropped the dagger after he moaned for the last time. Objective completed! I think the Hammerites are happy enough they have somebody to hang. I suspect they function just like the Medieval Inquisition. Guilty until proven innocent. Truart hasn't reformed the system yet.
Again, Garrett's main motivation is revenge. He never killed Ramirez though.

>>5041494
hearty kek

>>5040368
>3... Worst game I can remember playing in a long time.

It's time to stop this meme
Sure even with the patch, the levels are still small compared to first 2, but they make up for it by being more densely packed with actual content instead of empty corridors

What the actual FUCK, my save file is already 4 hours long and I'm still missing more than 1000 loot.

The level is excellent and insanely huge, but like, really?

>>5044968
>The Death of Thayer

>>5045951
Yeah that's The Art of Thievery for you. It's one of the most over the top missions out there.

>>5045308
Agreed. 3 is a fine game. Not as good as 1 or 2, but a lot of fun.

See that toilet?
You can flush it.

>>5046750
any more like it?

>>5047858
Lord Alan's factory is utterly ridiculous, you might like it.

>>5047745
Mission?

>>5040368
>The opera mission is fucked since that entire map is a beginner's trap.

What do you mean? First time I played Song I fuckin' loved it.

>>5044751
I like Song of the Caverns too, but imagine if the ladies' goons hadn't stolen the Water Talisman. It would be a pitifully short mission - the traps and puzzles leading up to the Water Talisman just aren't up to snuff in that regard. If they were half as elaborate as the design of the Bonehoard, you might have a point.

Woah, hold on a minute. T, where the fuck are we?

>dromed tells me it highlighted all room brushes with centers outside the world or inside another room brush
>all of the highlighted ones are neither of those
What did it mean by this?

>>5049228
It's kinda buggy, you can honestly safely disregard this. The only thing you need to be wary of is roombrushes with centers inside another roombrush. Now this is bad in 99.99% cases.

are we allowed to talk about The Dark Mod here?
>playing Accountant fan missions
>read note, "To do: clean up the dead rat in the kitchen"
>enter kitchen, look in corner
>see dead rat
>oh, i can pick it up
>wander around for a moment
>shrug and drop it into the boiling pot of stew nearby for shits and giggles
>voiced character dialogue saying "That oughta give tomorrow's meal some extra kick."
My sides are with The Builder now.

>>5049263
Funnily enough, I have a room brush where the center is touching the edge of another, and that isn't highlighted. It makes the sound around it sound far away, is that usually what happens?

>>5049276
Been meaning to play that series, I've heard good things. iirc Accountant 2 was the first one that came out, so what's the intended play order?

>>5049286
Yeah that's not good, a roombrush center should never touch another roombrush edge or be inside it. It causes all kinds of sound issues and can create issues if you use roombrushes as trigger volumes (which you should since BoundsTrigger are unreliable).

>>5049292
But otherwise overlapping ones should be alright, as long as the centers don't touch? It's hard to avoid that otherwise without room wedges.

>>5049286
No clue which order is 'intended'. I played 1, then 2.

1 is really solid and comfy, a nice all-round 'wander around town, sneak into shops and houses and take their shit, solve some puzzles along the way and maybe find some spooky things'

2 is much worse in my opinion, even though it has funny moments like the rat thing.

>out of place objects that aren't easter eggs but in fact are part of the plot (you'll know it when you see it)
>much tighter level design
>AI bugs like an undead and a guard teaming up to kick my ass, and just hanging out when i'm not around
>pretty awful ending that comes at you out of nowhere

good puzzles and some great quotes, though.

>>5049297
Yeah that's all fine, it's even recommended to have roombrushes bleed into each other a bit. If they merely meet on an edge there might be issues, even if that's pretty rare.

>>5044968
I can't really compain about the fault of this people's laws when their water system is so advanced. It's like they put all their civilization points in the bathroom stat, I can respect that.

I agree about the caverns part. An underground shortcut could have made things interesting, and considering how well the exhaust system works, a pipe that connects it to the second floor doesn't sound too absurd. But as a death trap and opening challenge those caves do their job. Should I be able to make those frogs explode by throwin rocks at them? Since there's a lot in the waterfall room it looked like I was meant to throw them at the frog that blocked the access to the other tunnel.
The basement exit made me wonder that. None of the OMs asks you to destroy something by throwing stuff as far I can remember, but those planks, rocks and the lack of better tools can immediately give the player all the right ideas. It's one of those cases where a mission takes an unexplored path but it's not too cryptic about it. It makes sense as a scene and it works in the game. The same can't be said about the guard that runs for the alarm because of an opened door. Just like the planks part, it makes sense, but it doesn't really work as an addition to Thief, not without some way for the player to "get it" beforehand.

>He never killed Ramirez though.
Garrett is not without flaws but anger rarely has the best of him. He's so smug and confident his revenge consists of showing his superiority by doing what Ramirez wanted him for in the first place, stealing stuff. He thinks he can do everything his way, and it usually works. Even when it doesn't, he never strays from that way.
It's also true that the story rarely has him facing personal defeat, something that thieving can't fix, and, when it happens, it's also something that threatens the whole City so we're not sure how much revenge he's been putting into it.

>>5049228
This happens when the center of where two room brushes overlap is in solid. Most of the time you can disregard it but occasionally you'll have two room brushes that shouldn't be touching making sound propegate through a wall.

'OIM GORIN TER THA BEAHR PITZ TUHMARRER WUNNA CUM WIVV?'

This ceiling?

Or this ceiling?

>>5050407
>>5050403
I think I like the second better

Wow dromed is really bullshit.
Fuck even Half Life editor was better, but maybe memory is playing tricks on me.

Wish there was a more modern dromed.

>>5032609

Shout out to "The Dark Mod" and everyone who has worked so hard to make that the "OMG! I'm living the dream!" of a modern and FREE Thief 1/2 clone.

I may not live in a world where Jodorowsky's Dune was made but, by golly, I live in a world where I can play "The Dark Mod."

>>5051125
dromed is complicated to keep the plebs at bay.

>>5051696
it's not about being complicated, it's how unpredictable and finicky it is. After working on my contest mission I've had dromed seemingly crash at random; corrupt save files; consistently crash when viewing certain parts of my map from specific angles; refuse to optimize the map after portalizing it just fine; jack up the mass value of every object in the map so that crates and barrels literally explode when I go ingame; make npcs sink halfway through the floor and get stuck when they'd been working perfectly fine before; randomly "remake" an air brush so that every detail inside it was lost; and probably a lot more I'm forgetting.
And this is using newdark. I can't even imagine what a pain the ass it was before that.

>>5050407
that one

>>5050407
>>5050403
Flat if it's the interior of a house with another floor above it
Arched if it's a corridor or underground complex

>>5050403
ANOTHER ARCH VOTE

>>5051725
Sounds like you're just bad at dromed.

>>5052613
might be, but dromed is still a piece of shit software, like it or not.

do you guys ever read novels and imagine a character with Garrett's voice?

>>5052878
Woman here. I read a ton of porn. All of the protagonists sound like Garrett.

>>5053228
I believe you

>>5049301
>out of place objects that aren't easter eggs but in fact are part of the plot (you'll know it when you see it)

I've played 2 like 5 times, what are you talking about?

>>5049168
I've been on 4chan too long

but this is pretty funny

>tfw no ThiefxSS2 FM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_XJjnsTNwo

>>5053371
Wat? Wat mishun?

>>5053396
Strain7, which most probably won't ever be released.

Are they horror games?

>>5053651
Not strictly, but the stealth aspect coupled with the surreal nature of Thief 1 makes it one of the spookiest games ever made.

>>5053668
I just read that the title "Thief: The Dark Project" was inspired by the White wolf games eg "Vampire: The Masquarade". Does it have any influences in the games beyond that?

>>5053669
I honestly can't tell you. I don't know anything about Vampire except what's in Bloodlines, which is a game I love and they don't have much in common imo.

Right now should I start up Deus Ex or Thief?

>>5053992
Really depends what you're looking for, they're not the same game. If you want just stealth then go with Thief.

>>5036775
I think it had some references to shadow politics?

>>5032609
is this kino?

>>5038502
I remember getting so frustrated with the soulforge that i discovered that you can kill the robots with the blackjack

>>5054521
Yeah I had the same experience. I even discovered that shooting broadheads into a disabled robot eventually cuts it into pieces.

>>5054517
>that texture pack
yikes

>>5054518
It's an obscure hidden gem, but it hasn't aged well, so you should skip it.

>>5054801
this but unironically

>>5053371
that is actually fucking cool.

>>5054517
delet this

>>5053651
I found that the goasts in both games actually spooked me a lot and I understood why real people were and are afraid of them.

I just beat Thief 2.
I feel tired.

>>5056017
me too, but all the time.

>>5056008
>real people

>>5056020
You're real to me

>(((HD TEXTURES)))

These games are actually pretty bad

>>5056270
My mom's pretty bad

>>5048651
In theory it's pretty great, I loved the switcheroo they pulled, but I happened to wander into a part of the opera early on that was complete tile and lights and had no way of getting out safely, and unlike with Thief 2 which I was accustomed to, there's no light switches or anything. Naturally, the gear I picked was for a cave area, I didn't know there would be fucking tiles all over. The game never even gives you extra gear to help you out, say with some stash in some guy's house near the opera. I was disenchanted because I know if they redid that level like it would be in T2, it would be outstanding. As it is, it's kind of annoying and flat. I ended up running circles around guards trying to blackjack them.

>>5053669
Vampire's lore is usually stuff they added onto old abrahamic lore (Adam's first wife, etc)

Thief's lore might have a few abrahamic parallels, but mostly it's about tales of the Trickster (pagans) and the Builder (Hammerites).

Both canons have elements of dark magick from the olden times while being set in a different, more modernized era to give it that special contrast, and both of course get interweaved. Vampire has several time periods, but it's usually set way after the whole Cain thing (Bloodlines is set in the 2000s), and Thief is set in a time after the Trickster and Builder, in a medieval gothic steampunk sort of world (steampunk has a heavier emphasis in the sequel, while the first game has a heavier emphasis on the arcane and macabre).

To answer your question, they definitely have heavy horror elements. The sound design and engineering and the atmosphere are top notch.

Hope that answered it, not a huge Vampire guy, only played Bloodlines and read some of the wiki lore on it.

>>5056354
I think the only true abrahamic parallel with Thief is how the Hammerites are basically a technology-oriented catholic church taken to the extreme. It's a patriarchal organization of insecure zealots who attribute all their own grand accomplishments to their god and assign blame for all their failures on themselves. They praise the builder when they have built a house or executed a transgressor, flagellate themselves if they fail to live up to their own unreasonable standards and dole out divinely condoned capital punishment when the society around them fails to live up to those same standads. Their leaders are corrupt hypocrites swimming in riches and exploiting their faithful followers.
The pagans are pretty damn original I think. A bunch of ignorant forest-dwellers subjugated by a powerful demon who exploits their ignorance and inability to challenge him, and maintains commandments that prevent them from ever developing beyond his control. The Trickster keeps the pagans exposed to the raw elements and pretends that the forces of nature are his doing, which reinforces the illusion that his power is based on. Their religion's god is actually real, but mortal and a fraud. Unlike the Hammerites who's god probably doesn't exist at all, and who simply delude and subjugate themselves.

>>5056398
If the Master Builder wasn't real, the Trickster wouldn't have such a large chip in his shoulder.

>>5056656
It could just be that "The Master Builder" refers to the people who invented the forging of iron and other technology that helped people protect themselves from the dangers of nature. The Trickster has a chip on his shoulder because he got his ass kicked by his former subjects. Even the divine power of the Builder is actually nonsense because the power of blessings can be projected from starlight into objects just like how electricity is produced using collector towers. It requires zero faith. Once again another thing that the Hammerites have accomplished using their own ingenuity and effort that they sadly attribute to their deity.

>>5056675
Where does the magic projectile used by the priests come from? Why does the blessed holy water kill zombies?

>>5056682
>Where does the magic projectile used by the priests come from?
Probably the same place as the magic of the Hand brotherhood mages and the Necromancers. It's part of the world and you just need to discover how to use it like any other technology. And about the holy water, there's obviously something in the power that is called "blessings" that undoes the reanimation of the dead. Maybe even an overload of magic that results in a literal explosion. But the blessings themselves are just the aetherial power that the Hammerites extract from the night sky as one can see in RtTC when the infidel Garrett who actively rejects the Hammerite ideology effortlessly crafts a working holy symbol in the observatory.

>>5056695
The observatory was always interesting to me. Does that aspect of magic/blessings ever come up again? I haven't played DS or 4 but I don't remember it in 2.

And yeah I always imagined the Builder was a legend that came to be in order to explain the origin of technology and craft rather than an actual entity.

If the SS2 source code gets released (as Night Dive seems to be planning to do), would that be good news for Thief too?

>>5057229
What's stopping people from making Thief style levels in the SS2 engine??

>>5057286
Do you mean making SS2 FMs, or making Thief FMs for SS2? If the latter, because there's no reason to do that, I mean the improvements to the dark engine that could come with public source code.

>>5057296
making ss2 fms in the style of thief

>>5057303
why would anyone do that?

>>5057308
Because Thief has good gameplay and all the ai is in place to make something similar with SS2 assets.
just gut the rpg mechanics and weaken the weapons and player, making more sneaking levels

well this mission was a fucking treat!
sprawling level with multiple ways of approach, but yet enough direction to not feel completely lost.
So one mission left, is it as good?
Also the guard running towards me was supposed to be neutral towards me, but somehow a bunch of guards had become aggroed while i was working on my objectives, as i was making my way out some of them chased after me.
Could be because of the skeleton apparitions that managed to make their way up to the waterworks on their own and attack people, is that supposed to happen?

>>5057829
I like Mercenaries (the next mission) more than this one, but some other people think it's not as good. Honestly this whole campaign is full of amazing missions.
Yeah your guard problem could very well be related to this.

>>5057829
Last mission is really good, my favorite is the second one though. Supposedly there's supposed to be another 2 missions added someday.

>>5057838
>>5057875
just finished it, a great little campaign and good quality all around. Think the waterworks was my favorite level.
nice use of verticality on the mansion part, and i had plenty of uses for the rope arrows which is always appreciated, didn't even feel the need for a map at all.
The trials at the end felt like a more refined version of the mage towers in a way.

lmao how is the ttlg forum still alive?

>>5058157
It's still the go-to place to post about fanmissions even if it's dead everywhere else.

>>5058056
I love the part where you have to get on the roof.

>>5057829
Which mission even?

>>5058665
City Public Water Works, the 3rd mission of the Gems of Provenance minicampaign.

>>5058157
>ttlg will never get a graphic update

>>5051652

I only tried one mission way out when it came out, the swordplay was really bullshit.
It never really took off and its a shame.

>>5056398
>taken to the extreme

Not really its 14th century Catholics when shit took a turn to the worse with Urban and Clemens.


Also In my opinion although in a low fantasy, the Builder is very real, as real as otherworldly power we are h8inted at with teh Mages, and the pagans.
Sure one could say no builder ever existed but by looking at the lore, he his as ambiguous and cool as Jesus or a Buddha.

Who knows maybe the original Builder was a Keeper of sorts striving for balance in a chaotic world.

>>5053669

My Looking Glass history is rusty. However, my understanding is that Thief 1 started out much differently than what they finished up with. Originally, it was going to be a sort of first-person RPG about Camelot called "Dark Camelot." (Aside: Even before that, they were going to make some other title but it had very little to do with Thief except that it had to do with swords). However, Dark Camelot was too complex to pull off at the time and so they simplified. They kept the "Dark" in the title and, thus, "Thief: The Dark Project."

Anyone else here play the T2 Gold version of Framed? It's slightly better. Here's the differences I noticed:

>Slightly better lighting in some areas, like the Training Room on the first floor and the Records Hall (complete with new ceilings, I think), the statue near the Warren Affairs office, etc
>On the second floor, there's an unopenable gate standing between the waiting room with the guardpost stairs and the corridor with the lieutenant and division offices
>Evidence storage is overhauled- most of the floor is lit up with artificial lights now (no switch), the vault antechamber only has one door (the one on the west side was removed), and the door is guarded by a new mechanical face
>some minor stuff, like the switch to the courtyard gate is slightly different, and the door to the basement interrogation room is unlocked

Really wish the other missions were playable too.

Having a real rough time with a night in Rocksbourgh, I've meet the loot requirement no problem, and i got the ore, but after that I've been running around in circles...
I looked up a walkthrough and it turns out some of the keys you need are just devilishly hidden, one in the river by the sewer grate and one under the steps outside Namez mansion...
this really loses my will to continue if i constantly have to look at the walkthrough...

>>5060069
I got memed into playing that shit too. Just drop it, it won't get any better.

>>5060145
Thanks for confirming this, I'm going to play Vanishing point by Skacky instead, I liked his previous stuff

>>5060069
>>5060145
i dropped that shit after 5 minutes lol

Anyone can suggest some cool missions like Art of Thievery of Heist Society? It seems good FMs are kind of rare

>>5060069
>>5060145
You should at least play Ink & Dust.

>>5059590
Before Dark Camelot is was goingto be called 'Better Red Than Dead' and it was going to be a sword fighting game set in the cold war and you were to be killing zombies

>>5060215
lmao wild

Builder, let my hand strike true. Builder, in the work I do.

>>5060170
ABSOLUTE KLEPTOGRAPHY
Иcтopия кopoля - зoнтик
Der Turm von Jorge - Jarl Frank
Хpaнитeль Бecкoнeчнocти - дyшa_Cлeзa
Nightcrawler - SperryAHCI
Vida del FTM - Cardia

FAN MISSION
Une Nuit À Rocksbourg: Un Nouveau Départ - DrK
01000010 01110010 01100001 01101001 01101110 01100011 01101000 01101001 01101100 01100100 - SperryACHI
Strain7 - Sliptip
Пoтepянныe в дaльних кpaях - дyшa_Cлeзa

"FM"
La Torre - Lady Rowena
Mystic Gems II: Heart of Bohn - Wille
Gems of Provenance - stinkykitty
Behind Closed Doors - nicked
Ominous Bequest Gold - Eshaktaar
Hidden Agenda - AsyluM
Sepulchre of the Sinistral - Doaal
The Saint of Redmound - Morrgan
Bloodmist Tower -kfort
Sturmdrang Tower - nicked
Inverted Manse - Sledge
Thief 2x - whole bunch of people

I'm a newb gonna play it for the first time and I'd like a few pointers if you don't mind. I'm about to install the patch for Thief Gold, does oRGy's texture pack look good and worth installing?
What's the best way to play the levels, should I ghost through them or knock everyone out?

>>5060603
As a rule of thumb, don't install anything that comes with the patches, with the exception of the common fan mission scripts that are bundled with Tafferpatcher for Thief 2 if you intend to play FMs down the line. The texture packs range from just average to absolutely terrible and aren't recommended at all for a first playthrough.

Also, just play the way you like. Thief is a flexible game.

>>5060608
are there time limits or is it as slow paced as it looks?

>>5060631
There are no time limits, you can play as slow as you want.

>>5060608
Somebody post the info graphic

Avoid texture packs or AI meshes, install tfix lite, open cam_ext and disable filtering

>>5061002
>>5032629

Though yeah I think that infographic could do with the texture filtering bit for purists (or people who can't stand texture filtering).

Is there a reason gold plaques don't work in Dromed?

>>5061345
Yes, create a folder called STRINGS in your DromEd folder.

>>5061380
That is odd. I checked another FM (Lord Edmund Entertains) in Dromed and the .str files are placed in the book folder. Even when I place the file in the newly created strings folder, I'm still unable to frob the plaque and make the text appear.

>>5061380
That is odd. I checked another FM (Lord Edmund Entertains) in Dromed and the .str files are placed in the book folder. For some reason the text now appears when I frob the plaque.

>>5061659
All books go into the BOOKS folder, but DromEd absolutely requires a STRINGS folder for plaques and readables without art to work. Don't ask me why, it's one of those dumb Dark Engine things that can drive you insane if you don't know them.

>>5060501
>>5060538
top heh

>>5061689
Need a Trickster boomer. The ancient times, now these were good times.

>>5061002
which filtering?

I always leave my signature cucumber next to my latest haul, bitches gotta know who they got robbed by

well that sucks... I had to look up the solution for this puzzle and it seems like i was doing the right thing all along... although nothing happens

>>5062136
Broken script?

>>5061729
You can turn off texture filtering.
Cant recall the exact line... can someone jump in?

Id consult my own but my computer is out of commission

>>5062213
>Broken script?
guess so, It's a bit anti-climatic to ctrl+shift+alt+end right there but there is nothing else to do
>texture filtering
I don't remember the lines you have to change anymore but i can offer my cfg file for anyone that wants it..
>https://mega.nz/#!tEh1CTzQ!NtDIvso15dJ9YU00l6kNOepQ4hAhLuGnC3-2-n6Ivwc
just replace it in the thief gold folder

>>5062234
>>5062136
I had an issue with that too. The solution is to spam frob at the base of the pedestal. I surmised it would probably move out of the way when I solved the puzzle, to reveal a cavity with the book in it, so I tried to pick it up through the floor and it actually fukken worked.

>>5062250
oh wow that actually worked, didn't even have to crouch, guess it could be a newdark thing so I'm not gonna blame it on the author.
Good map overall, has that vanilla feel, only thing i didn't like was that one of the keys to the secret staircase was in the sewers, I figured the sewers wasn't necessary to explore since there was so many other ways to enter the mansion

>>5058056
When I see that it makes me think of mage guild or that poor bastard blown up by a mechanists rocket trying to reach the moon.

>>5049402
Yeah, it's possible to throw the rocks at the frogs. You can also throw them at a window to create an quick entry, but it's better to sneak around and get a key. Throwing rocks at the frogs is also a way to introduce a mechanic. "There are planks covering a hole in the wall and there are big rocks laying around, hmmmm".
Weren't there instances in the OMs where you can break planks with your sword?

>>5062965
You can throw them but nothing happens...

For me the rocks just clipped through.

are there any pnp games with this game's feel

>shitty Lego boomer game
Hahaha this shit belongs in >>>/vr/
It's ancient

>>5063252
One poster a while ago described the first Thief game as a DnD Rogue simulator and the second as a stealth game in earnest. You could build a world based on the city with a few friends. There is also a mobile card game called Card Thief that takes a few cues from the series if that is something you might be interested in. Sorry I couldn't be any real help.

Is there a way to see a total loot count for a mission or do I have to track this shit by hand?

>>5063624
Stats at the end of a mission

>>5063624
You can open DromEd, go to Tools -> Generate Report and select Dump Everything Possible. Then open the generated .rep file in your DromEd folder and look for Total Loot. Watch out, however, cause the loadout store cash is also counted in this total if you have one.

>>5063645
Excellent, I tried that but didn't notice where the file went.

>>5063631
I meant in dromed but thanks.

>>5063657
fuck I am dumb

I've used two textures from TGTest. Why won't an error appear?

How is Deadly Shadows?

What are the best sites for Thief mods and other resources?

>>5065004
Good but not as good. Fanmade fixes do fix a lot of issues. Its level design is held back by console limitations and the movement is more clunky due to 3rd person animations.

is Garrett supposed to be a manlet?

>>5065130
You can compare it yourself when you activate 3rd person mode in the city hub in Deadly Shadows. When you're walking in public areas Garrett has an upright casual walking stance instead of a hunched sneaking stance. I don't actually know the answer to your question because I never play in 3rd person

>>5065130
he is shorter than normal guards, considerably shorter than hammerites, and about the same height as the wimpy servants in thief 1 so yes

>>5065236
Either way, he's the meanest son of a bitch in nine counties.

>>5065130
Not even a man, let alone a manlet.

>>5056254
wtf lol

Fuck using any graphical enchancement, play the game the way it;s meant to be played.

>>5065130
He grew up as an orphan stealing so he wouldn't starve, of course he's a manlet.

Why are T1 and T2 so much comfier than T3?

>>5066413
color palettes?

I tried to copy the candle flame from Project Hammer, but it comes out wrong. It looks like a square?

Dark Mod, yes or no?

>>5067808
Why don't you try it yourself?

>>5067642
Project Hammer uses a custom texture on the candle flame object.

>>5067808
no

>>5066413
>>5066651
T3 does use a lot of obvious blue, and if those tech companies aren't lying then blue's supposed to be a biologically uncomfy color

>>5067808
There's very few good missions and the controls are a little maximalist, but the good missions are really good. I wish Pewdiepie or someone would play it so it could take off.

>>5068270
>and the controls are a little maximalist
What does that mean?

>>5068304
Think about what minimalist controls would mean, and then think of what the opposite would be.

I feel like I like the concept of supernatural elements in TDP, but it wasn't executed the best. Thief 2 was more fun to play and the steampunk stuff was cool, but I really sat up straight when I got to "Trail of Blood." It'd be nice to see a mix of these elements crafted well. What are the best supernatural FMs?

>>5032609
>>5033807
Just played Thieve's Guild for the first time, and it fucking sucks. First level I had to use a guide for, and the first level I didn't enjoy. The amount of backtracking is insane, and it isn't fun running around sewers for an hour.

>>5068632
Yeah the entire mission is pretty much bullshit.
1. Find the secret switch that opens the only way into the first area.
2. Find the secret key that opens the only way into the second area.
3. Find the secret safe that holds a key.
4. Backtrack all the way through the level to the other end.
5. Find the secret room that holds the switch that opens the only way into the third area.
6. Find the secret safe that requires the key from step 3 and steal the main objective.
8. Walk 15 steps to leave via an unguarded area that you somehow couldn't use to enter the premises.
9. Return because you still have 90% of your loot objective unfulfilled.
10. Find a shitload of other "optional" secrets holding mandatory loot.

Thieve's Guild is the sequel to Milo's Secret Castle.

>>5068746
I never even found the secret entrance to the casino, I looked all around the restaurant until I just said fuck it and leaped down the chute on the top floor.

>>5068748
The chute is the intended way but at least it isn't secret. The first entrance to the actual guild you're supposed to find is a secret, albeit a badly hidden one. Finding a way to the casino is not the annoying part of the restaurant, it's the fact that you're basically supposed to exploit a bug with the AI to avoid having to deal with the chef who has the sensory perception of god and the courage of a rat. Apparently LGS noticed how popular the use of the blackjack was and when they made Gold they wanted to make clobbering innocent civilians mandatory rather than an option so they put the intended route behind them and cranked up their perception so you can't sneak past them.

It almost seems like someone who has no idea what the design philosophy of Looking Glass immersive sims is was in charge of designing the Thieves Guild

tafferpatcher Bloom on or off?
and if on, with what settings?

>>5068808
Off. Post processing for graphics that are otherwise unaltered is stupid in my opinion.

>>5067945
So it's either a small Flame or a TorchFlame.

>>5069054
What is this? Makes me feel weird

>>5069072
I think it's from death of garrett for thief 1

>>5062965
>Throwing rocks at the frogs is also a way to introduce a mechanic.
That's what I thought, but as >>5063238 says, it doesn't seem to work properly. Or maybe my aim is just that bad, I won't rule that out.
>Weren't there instances in the OMs where you can break planks with your sword?
Plenty, but none where the only way to do that is by throwing stuff at the planks. In general the OMs never limit the player's possibilities to an extreme degree: even in Escape Garrett still has his sword and no "no kill" rule to stop him. It's almost a new territory to explore for FMs, and I can see it leading to both creative solutions like this one and frustrating situations.

I really loved the idea of tDoG but I think the execution was slightly underwhelming. I'd love to see a remake.

Things like the Guard that flips out because of an open door were lost on me because it was not congruent with established guard behavior.

Some areas felt too big and empty or too small too.

Either way, some fantastic places, some great level design and some fun new mechanics are never bad, even if a few shortcomings are present too

is Thief comfy like other immersion sims, or is it more tense? Also what went wrong with the reboot?

>>5069873
Thief isn't the comfiest game out there simply because of how tense it can get while someone is looking for you just outside of the shadow you're hiding in. Or if you get caught. Not really comfy as much as it is fucking awesome and genuinely inspiring.

The reboot features none of the really enjoyable features unique to origin systems games. Modern by-the-numbers mini maps with quest markers, context-dependent items that don't work organically (rope arrows feel more right in the originals), dumb as fuck guards who don't take these long patrols or use any degree of intelligent AI, fucking mini-movie takedowns that do nothing but piss all over the imagination, no deeply exploratory non-linear levels that feel like a breath of air so fresh it might have been blasted out of your high school crush's butthole by accident while you were looking at her feet while she adjusted those stupid shoes they wear and you can smell the hot fucking BEANZ she ate during lunch mmmmmmmmmmmm

>>5070012
by the builder

be sure to change your underwear every day

Who were Garretts parents?

>>5070219
Fuckin' urchins were

what piece of media has come the closes to depict the world and tone of Thief. Kind of like Independence Day and its sequel kind of has similar vibes to XCOM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwPn9ZnbCo0

>>5070612
Thiefs art direction is inspired heavily by The Third Man

>>5065307

>>5070710

>>5070710
>>5070828
Sorry, didn't have time for images earlier

>>5070831

>>5070837

The Third Man is a wonderful film

>>5071325
It really is. Not my favorite Noir (that would be Laura, Double Indemnity or The Phantom Lady), but clearly one of the best.

The use of the dutch angle and odd perspective in Thief's briefings owes much to The Third Man's.

>>5032609
Ballon, mein herr?

Seriously, watch this film if you haven't already.

>>5071394
reminds me of angelwatch

>>5071429
More like the monastery from 'mercenaries' in gems of provenance

>>5072015
if you say so.

>>5072026
it doesn't look like either to be completely honest

Room brushes hurt my soul.

How's it going, Razor?

Is there a way to disable the red tutorial text in Thief 2?

>>5072964
It only appears on Normal. Also I'm pretty sure it's only in the first mission.

>>5073175
It also happens in Shipping in a few instances on Normal iirc.

>>5069805
There are a couple of FMs that introduce a new mechanic but don't give the player the opportunity to get acquainted with the mechanic at one's own pace.
>>5072913
What happened to Fen and Nexus?

>>5074574
>What happened to Fen and Nexus?
Fen is taking a (long) break from Let's Plays.

Maybe Garrett should get a job

>>5075886
ok, where?

>>5075962
Grocery store clerk. He has the right attitude.

>>5075973
>Suggetions for Gaming laptop under $1200

fenphoenix is annoying as fuck

>>5075973
Wonder how that got there. Autofill, I guess. After zis post, I remove.

>>5075973
>Five more minutes, and I was done with my shift. Or, so I was told.
>The last guy in line showed up with two full carts, four kids, and every different colour of bell pepper.
>Typical.
>Problem was I couldn't remember the code for the orange one.
>First time I saw one. I don't recall ever stocking an orange bell pepper. What's next?
>Luckily, I didn't come out of the Soulforge empty handed. I've had a spare sunburst stashed away for just such an occasion.
>I have all the equipment I need to take care of this little problem.
>Time to get to work.

Why do games have to be so shitty now that we all have super computers?

~Why don't we just use a Thief level engine graphics and port over Daggerfall?
~Why doesn't someone just stitch 100 original Starcraft maps together and make a really shitty but insanely fun online game?

So many of the best games suffered from limitation that we just don't need to worry about anymore. Why not just take the fun shit and blow out the limitations a million times past what they could do back then?

>>5076181
Dare I say why not use a Jagged Alliance format to run DWARF FORTRESS!

>>5076181
>Why do games have to be so shitty now that we all have super computers?
Because the common normie customer demand for ever-increasing graphics quality with zero intention of paying extra for a product that is literally more valuable increases at a faster rate than the hardware power and power-value ratio. You'd think that a modern Elder Scrolls game could get rid of the indoor cells that were still in Morrowind where every front door was a loading zone but nope. You have to use the extra processing power for more graphics. Not removing previous limitations. Thief was a special case because "more graphics" and "removing limitations" were the same thing and that's why Deadly Shadows got its full dynamic lighting.

>>5071387
Pretty fucking great, I knew about german expressionism and other influences but that movie is really on point.

>>5076181
>>5076183
>>5076259

Graphix normies are something of a culprit but not the only thing working here.
I would kill for games to stay a good pixel art, quake 1 low poly but with intricate detail level\ gameplay.

But the truth is gameplay and coding is fucking hard. Making good graphics and new assets is already strenuous, but gameplay is on another level of hard.

>>5076892
Graphix normies are the only culprit and will ever be. If nobody cared about graphics, everyone could make the games they want instead of having to make good looking games that are intentionally simplistic shit so they sell to the biggest possible audience and cover the cost of a gigantic art department.
There's already talk of Underworld Ascendant looking like shit and people not wanting to play it and it has nothing to do with the gameplay. It's about the fact that they don't have the animation budget of Assassin's Creed or Blizzard's cutscenes.

>>5076912
Actually Ascendant does look like shit.
Even if the gameplay will be great and all.

>>5076915
>Even if the gameplay will be great and all.
Don't hold your breath for that one.

>>5076915
Why did you repeat my point?

>>5076918
I know, I just said it, cause truth is you never know until it comes out. But looking at their streams they are completely clueless of what made Thief, Arx any game of the long 0451 line great.

>>5076920
Because at least looking artistically half decent, say really try to emulate the Stygian Abyss cover or some shit, could actually have some people on board, and if the game is good it might help them revive these type of games now that Dishonored and bootleg bioshit called prey shot it in the head. ( I did like some parts of Prey)

Its not 100% for sure, there are amazing games that never got recognition, but videogames have a weird essence among other types of entertainment were quality in gameplay is a direct correlation to their commercial success MOST of the time.

I would think they would try to increase those chances by not looking like shit.

>>5076930
>Because at least looking artistically half decent, say really try to emulate the Stygian Abyss cover or some shit, could actually have some people on board, and if the game is good it might help them revive these type of games now that Dishonored and bootleg bioshit called prey shot it in the head. ( I did like some parts of Prey)
That's not English and even if I accidentally understood it correctly it's a contradiction because you changed from saying it looks like shit to saying it looks half decent.

>>5076945
What do you mean?

I said that if the game looked decent in terms of style it may bring more attention to it, instead of the overall meh-ness.

>>5076958
Ah, your grammar was so atrocious that it entirely obscured what you meant. But you still made my point for me. Games fail because people don't give a shit about them being games, they want paintings. In fact they want billion-dollar paintings for sixty bucks or less.

>>5076971

I was also making the point that besides graphics, good gameplay gets praised and it would help them over time. Looking like crap from the get go does not help them. Games are more than just gameplay, and you have to play the visual angle.

>>5076981
Which is the problem because people are shit. If you look at something like Dream Quest and you're a retard, you will immediately think that the zero effort early 2000's flash game graphics means that the gameplay must therefore be worse than Color A Dinosaur or Metal Gear Solid even though it's actually a great deckbuilding roguelike.

>>5076992
Anyway looking like shit is a detriment no matter the gameplay qualities. If you cant deal with triple A graphics, at least choose a decent art style.

>>5076992
Metal Gear Solid is not really that bad for what it wanted to be, especially as a console game.
The fact that splinter cell is thief lite and eventually metal gear got more splinter cellish is really karmic justice for Thief.

>>5077080
>for what it wanted to be
Pac-Man with boss fights?

>>5077304
Yeah. Would be better if it was more like Tenchu, but we are talking 1998.

>>5077062
Thief The Dark Project didn't have AAA graphics and its ingame appearance literally has no art style. It's practical geometry with photo-based textures. So they didn't choose a decent art style when failing at realism, they just doubled down and went with the half-assed realism.

>>5077316

You have a point.

And it was one of the reasons of criticism back when it came out. Although the cutscenes and world were praised even back then.

I get what you are saying, the City we see in the movies and the one we play could be closer, but fuck if the audio department carry the fucking game. The different factions and weird steampunk elements as well.

>>5077313
The AI that makes roaches eat the blood of killed enemies in Half-Life is more complex than any AI in MGS, a supposed stealth game.
>*shoots an unsilenced gun*
>"attention, player: Enemies will forget you exist in exactly 60 seconds"

>>5077327
And that is why I said console. If there was a time when there was a clear separation of quality in platforms, was the time between Unreal, Half Life etc came out.

>>5077062
>>5077316

That is literally just your opinion. Even if your criticism had any merit beyond being "its standards didn't satisfy the graphic whores of its time" and "I think the realism is done badly" you fail to see that the art design is a blend between medieval and steampunk artstyles, with some real-life architecture being an inspiration.

Also, what would constitute "a decent art style" if not something unique like the style Thief chose?

>>5076981

This argument is especially weak. Every game will eventually look dated visually. Final Fantasy VII is a game that looks apallingly bad to the modern eye, especially in the overworld where Cloud has pipecleaner arms. Yet the game persists as a classic because it was made with heart, has a great soundtrack, story and gameplay to boot.

>>5077401
>you fail to see that the art design is a blend between medieval and steampunk artstyles, with some real-life architecture being an inspiration.

Did you fail to see what I said in >>5077323

Also
>Final Fantasy VII
Really? At least pick a decent jrpg like Breath of Fire. Which still looks good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0P9tePJXBg

>graphics discussion on the /vr/ thief thread
Well I wasn't expecting this

ree fucking kurshoks

When do we grt thr full DarkEngine source code?

Its 20 years on, no legal repercussions are gonna follow. I want to see a THIEF Total Convertion in my lifetime :p

>>5077401
Medieval and steampunk combined is not a game art style. The Walking Dead has an art style. Solid colors and stark black outlines to emulate a comic. Papers Please has an art style. Muted colors of an early 90's DOS detective game aesthetic with skeuomorphic interfaces. Undertale has an art style. Bright primary colors drawn on a black canvas. Betrayer has an art style. Monochromatic world with splashes or bright red. Even Deus Ex Human Revolution has an art style. Maximized use of shiny black and gold with triangular illuminati symbolism.
Assassin's Creed 2 doesn't have an art style no matter how much Italian Renaissance architecture is replicated in the game world. Same with Thief. The only art style Thief has is in its After Effects cutscenes made using black silhouettes and animated hand-painted backgrounds.

>>5078001
>Assassin's Creed 2 doesn't have an art style no matter how much Italian Renaissance architecture is replicated in the game world
What the fuck am I reading?

>>5078005
I'm guessing his thesis is that photorealism isn't an art style.

>>5078001
You appear to have confused certain post-processing effects with style.
Even if we're going to disregard the fact that realism is an art style, Asscreed has wholly fictional stylistic elements such as the design of the assassins' garb and the depiction of future technology (I don't even know if those games are doing that anymore).
In Thief 1, there's the pagan and hammerite motifs, the distinctive blue coloration of the city, stark black shadows that even in-game lend a noir-ish look. The moonless pitch-black sky, Bafford's custard-colored lair that can't decide if it's a castle or a manor, inscrutable pieces of technology lining rough-hewn streets, the octagonal pattern of the towering bonehoard, the gaudy opera house. All deliberate and, imo, distinctive style.

For what it's worth Thief (in-game) has always reminded me of some of (realist) Edward Hopper's paintings such as Automat and Hotel Lobby. It's in the lighting.

>>5078001
This is, by far and away, among the most retarded things I've ever read on this board. God damn, that one will be hard to beat.

>>5038518
The when the guard makes a noise such as 'Huh?' or something similar, but doesn't move from his post you need to stop making noise. If he hears a second noise during that time, he will go on alert and start investigating, otherwise he will return to a dormant state

>>5065236
Isnt that just because the first person camera is in his torso or something?

smol garrett
smol shadow

>>5078334
what if garret was 8 inches tall?

>>5078346
that's a smol garrett

>>5078346
In the little big world hes only half an inch tall, and thats a canon place.

>>5078080
And yet someone else made an argument and you didn't. It wasn't that hard to beat afterall.

>>5078846
Does the eagle argue with the ant?

>>5078880
Keep digging yourself deeper

>>5078041
The industry isn't exactly about subtlety. The commonly recognized definition does refer to the various intentional inaccuracies of depiction, not the things being depicted themselves. The fact that Papers Please uses a specific limited palette to distinguish individuals is not post processing but a deliberate artistic decision to not depict a human being, but to use only a few shades of a specific hue to depict a human being. Your definition might be more nuanced and sophisticated but the common term used by the majority doesn't refer to that. They don't talk about "art style" when looking at Crysis. They talk about art style when looking at Guilty Gear.
And I disagree about the stark shadows being an intentional part of trying to uphold a noir aesthetic because those stark shadows are simply an integral part of the gameplay which couldn't have been implemented in any other way. So it's incidental more than anything else. The camera angles and lighting in the briefings and cutscenes are no doubt influenced by the noir genre.

>>5078978
>So it's incidental more than anything else.
Could just be that the noir cutscenes were made to match the engine limitations. There's an old mini documentary about thief, and how the engine and a little ingenuity shaped the game.
I disagree that the game doesn't have an art style though. The textures are a sort of photo reference collage, the selection of which forms a cohesive style, and the use of lighting and BSP is definitely an art style. The placement of lights and shadows in non-gameplay integral areas is evidence of a deliberate attempt to remain true to a single vision. Using world geometry to draw lines and attention is something they got better at in Thief 2, but is still present in Thief 1.

I guess we're going to have to disagree because I think that everything you see ingame in Thief is first and foremost practical and any aesthetic decisions come second. All games with a distict art style flavor all of the included visual (and sometimes aural) content with a certain way of presenting it at the same time as the practical aspect of those things is being implemented. The 3d-modelers who make the characters in Guilty Gear go directly to linearizing all UV seams so every single line in the textures can be drawn pixel-crisp and the interactive anime aesthetic can be achieved in three dimensions. Arkane gave all of the materials seen in the Dishonored games a surface that looks like it was oil-painted and caricaturized all of the human characters sometimes to the point of hideous absurdity.
I think there is a line between stylized and non-stylized games and in my opinion Thief The Dark Project does not cross that line.

if you like mgs you are subhuman

Retreival next?

Cannot setup debug ghost info for 49 0 0
Does it mean trouble?

>89% of loot found
Builder have mercy on this poor shitter

>>5078978
They don't talk about Crysis's art style because it's boring. I don't care if you think Thief's is, I'm just saying it's absurd to say it outright doesn't have an art style. I also don't see why you assume the choice of colors in Thief is not deliberate, and that they couldn't have simply chosen a style that's consistent with the gameplay and technology they were working with (re: shadows). But whatever, agree to disagree.

>>5078001
>Medieval and steampunk combined is not a game art style
that's an autistic way to look at Thief's visuals
>Assassin's Creed 2 doesn't have an art style no matter how much Italian Renaissance architecture is replicated in the game world. Same with Thief.
complete fucking idiot.

AC2 has a very distinctive art style, and hey since you can only notice color motifs in art styles, the way they use pure whites merged with bright reds (to contrast with the muted white and blue in the first game) and white bloom in select parts, the clothing and the UI definitely gives it its own style. Since you noticed geometric shapes for Human Revolution, AC2 constantly uses cool patterns for the UI, and the 'animus glitches' often show up in the game world such as when you swing your sword, important stuff is always shining white, etc. When photorealism is favored, the art style isn't as in-your-face so simpletons like you can't just say "aha! it's cel-shaded!" or whatever. It's there, but it's in the smaller things, the color balance of the ambiance light in various environments, lighting values in day-night cycles. It's still stylized even if it's aiming for photorealism.

Thief also absolutely has an artstyle in-game that is conveyed through its worldbuilding and lighting and watching it go from medieval gothic,(yes, architecture is also art you pleb) arcane and macabre to steampunk victorian is great. Like someone here mentioned, the game has noir inspirations too and it shows.

>>5078001
You have failed to argue why Thief doesn't have an artstyle beyond your personal dislike of it. My Kindergarten drawings have strong primary colours set against a black canvas. Does that make what my 3 year old self made an artistic piece of work with a distinct artstyle?

>>5077405
> le FFVII is bad because it's popular
> steampunk """elements"""

I hated the art shift from 1 to 2. Makes me wonder how much of the stuff I liked from 1 was actually intentional and what was just technical/budget/time limitations.

>>5080156
>it's a "struggling to meet Haunted Cathedral's loot requirement" episode

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

>>5080427
The thing I miss most about playing Thief back in the day is the banded lighting and low color depth.

>>5080256
>why you assume the choice of colors in Thief is not deliberate
It at least partially isn't deliberate because the Dark Engine in Thief 1 did not support colored lightmaps.

>>5080475
In Deadly Shadows when you play Moira's Mansion on Expert, there is no way to fulfill the loot objective while leaving the widow's inheritance alone. When you steal every single piece of loot in the mission other than the inheritance, you get 89%. The objective is 90%. So on expert the optional moral choice becomes "You know Garrett isn't a good person right?" and the game forces you to choose the immoral action.

>>5080427
They switched project leads and invited a bunch of new people for 2.

>>5080475
That part literally took us hours when I was a kid. I used to play every level for the first time with my best friend, and we'd usually have like an hour count of around 8 before we got through a mission because spook.

The problem with The Haunted Cathedral was that there were so many areas with zombies or enemies we wanted to avoid, or light sources we wanted to bypass, that we missed a lot of easy loot. So finally we find the door above the drawbridge and make it to the creepy mansion where the Serpentyle torque is, and that was enough to get us like the 750 loot you needed on normal.

>>5080885
That really kind of fucked me up a little bit. I usually choose not to play it on Expert since I learned that one the hard way. I know that Garrett is a thief, and Moira lives off the ill-gotten gains of her husband, but she didn't know that. I would think that that 500 in loot wouldn't make the biggest difference for Garrett.

>>5079510
Isnt that honestly tech limitations?

In my mind in all games I was picturing the labyrinthine city noir mess shown in the cutscenes.

>>5081686
Okay, there have been some very good arguments against what I've been rambling about but "the apparent total absence of stylized visuals ingame is just the result of it not being possible to implement" is scraping the bottom of the barrel. Yes you're supposed to imagine the City as it's shown in the cutscenes, afterall all pre-rendered things in all games are by default the most accurate representation of anything because they lack all technical limitations. But ingame the game doesn't "have that art style in principle but not in practice". You might as well say that Pong is actually photorealistic, it just looks the way it does due to technical limitations.

>>5081838
Kay sure whatever. I still think its right.

They had a vision for what they wanted. You can see it in the ingame assets, from collectors to the Hammers etc.

I guess System Shock also does not have an art style.

>>5081196
>I would think that that 500 in loot wouldn't make the biggest difference for Garrett.
I forget what the pricing is in DS, but that's like 10 fuckin water arrows. Pretty much nothing.

if you like mgs you are subhuman

>>5082479
tfw you realize that 90% of the screen is just a fancy visualization of the green pac-man maze that you're actually playing in the corner

>>5082802
Proof that console gamers are retarded.
Mgs is for inferior people.

>>5080885
>>5081196
what's the fucking problem moralfags?
The game is called Thief lol

>>5082479
>>5082802
>>5083451
They're both great series, stop being autistic.

>>5084176
Robin Hood is a robber, a brigand and a thief, but he isn't an asshole. What's the problem, antimoralfag?

>>5082802
>>5083451
>>5084183

MGS is great for many things, but not for its innovative and state-of-the-art stealth gameplay. Metal Gear was a good stealth game, but even that game hinged a lot on open combat. MGS is more renowned for the story; remember that when you play something like MGS3, you will sit through 2 hours of cutscenes after completing like 20 minutes of gameplay, so about 1-2 small areas of the game.

>>5082802
how about if you play with no radar
>>5084379
imagine a metal gear that was actually focused on being a game, this is what is great about ghost babel, the true best metal gear game (real niggas only)

>>5084379
>>5084419
Weren't the original mg games on the msx important for the stealth genre?

>>5084419
>how about if you play with no radar
That's not his point at all. He's saying the gameplay itself isn't that complex. There's a little depth here and there, but the broad strokes are a bit shallow.
MGS is a great game, but the stealth aspect of it is nowhere near Thief imo.
>>5084431
A bit, but they didn't influence much more than the later MGS games.

>>5032615
please do something with that gift

>>5084379
The story and characters are so ridiculous and bafflingly designed and the acting is so cheesy and over the top that it should all be a parody of itself which would make it brilliant, but it isn't. It's serious, which makes it just the worst of all time. Also the story does nothing to deserve the use of 4th wall breaks and as a result they only serve to remind you how stupid it all is. How can anyone enjoy a story that goes out of its way to not be believable?
>>5084419
>how about if you play with no radar
Then you'd still be playing the maze where you are a dot dodging cones, just without the ability to see the cones.

>>5079689
I didn't know Farkus was so well beloved.

daliy reminder that city missions are shit

>>5085739
now I know why I hate TDS

Im so ready for comfy winter maps mood in few months.

>>5085280
I don't get it. Enlighten me?

I mean, all thief's characters are sort of 'burners' like Farkus.
The guards and hammers are characterized as groups, and not indivials (except benny and murus)

Ramerez only exists TO be killed or robbed blind in a single mission, Cutty is mentioned in one mission and dies in the next, Constantine and Viktoria only show up for what... 3 missions? Vikky is never even seen IN-GAME.

I kinda like that about Thief though. The brief meetings have to convey a lot about characters, so they have to work harder to seem alive.

>>5086180
I'm just not sure how that was a reference to Farkus, that's how all this character rant got started.

>regularly browse thief threads for the last few years
>have only played the games and never any of the fan missions
>never know what people are talking about half the time, but I keep coming back.

>>5086502
play

>>5085082
>It's serious
It's about as serious as Xena was. melodrama mixed with slapstick nonsense.
Might not be your flavor, but don't purposefully misunderstand it.

I played the trilogy in order and on my first impressions I much preferred the second game. But the more I think about it, the more I think I prefer the atmosphere of TDP.
But T2 had more thieving and less fucking about around with monsters which I liked.

I wish I didn't have autism and a need to decide which one I preferred overall.

>>5086973
It's my opinion that you are the one purposefully misunderstanding it to make yourself think that it's better than it actually is. Like the Spec-Ops: The Line apologists pretending that the bad game mechanics are a deliberate part of the design to prevent the player from having fun. I believe Kojima is a hack and his games are shit. The story being serious even though it's actually retarded is just another part of that lack of quality.

>>5086984
>But T2 had more thieving
t2 has you doing random bitch work for a few characters to keep the plot moving for most of the game. There's only 1 (one) mission in the whole game where you're actually stealing for personal gain (shipping and recieving). Contrast that to t1 where almost every mission is about actually stealing shit (which by the way also includes grave robbing) or working toward a major heist (the eye).