/vr/ - Retro Games

Looks like someone got their boipucci pounded by some chaingunners.

>>5084269
Yeah.

But the problem is that their attacks are unavoidable.

If the bullets were projectiles, then I'd be fine.

>valve

>>5084205
Imagine being so buttmad you post out of the doom general and you doubt the greatness of the Casali brothers.

>>5084706
Their greatness is not uniform. Milo is clearly superior to Dario. You can even see that in that demos. One plays in a precise and perfectly controlled manner, another one is all over the place.

>>5084438
>unavoidable hitscan
>walls exist
Pick one.

Is nobody going to bring up Well of Souls though?

i quit plutonia when there was some bullshit invisible bridge. This isn't fucking indiana jones.

>>5086312
thats just there to crush your spirits. theres no more after that

Plutonia was kind of ???
that was a gnarly ass set of levels

>>5084575
This. What did he mean by this?

Plutonia first levels are memeshit tier tbqhwumyfamalam, UV has more archviles than gunmen, that should tell you something. They do get better after.
TNT has a much better curve and custom soundtrack to boot (recentish plutonia music pack is pretty nice too).

>>5086319
>"Crush Your Spirits"
This is not Dark Souls.

>>5084205
Must be bait. FD was outstanding

>>5084205
I was in goodwill today and thought I had hit the jackpot. I saw a final doom for pc lying on the shelf. Opened it up and no disc. Damn it.

I know it's not a "treasure" but damn it would have been nice to find something in this picked over local goodwill. I live in a place with a really low median income, i.e. it's poor rural area. There is never anything good here, maybe some non retro rock band or sims games, but you're lucky to even find 3 video games of any type here. It sucks to live in a town where walmart is the height of culture.

>>5084205
Oh wow, I was just bitching about TNT.

TNT is fucking trash but Plutonia is amazing. Plutonia is the ultimate test of your doom abilities to the point it will absolutely make SURE you fucking know how every single weapon works and every quirk about it. It will push you to your limit and make you bleed. TNT is just boring 90's map garbage.

Plutonia is the height of gaming.

>>5086597
Seconding this. Plutonia, if not the height of gaming, is absolutely the height of Doom. It's the absolute ultimate fucking test of your skills beyond all other measures. It's called Final Doom for a reason.

TNT still really, really sucks though.

>>5086602
>>5086596
https://youtu.be/-6ZChfTF0-k?t=1232

>>5086609
>Doom 2 was seamless
Stopped watching there.

>>5086617
>Implying Doom 2 was bad but Plutonia was good.

>>5086617
Seconded. His points about TNT and Plutonia are just "waah im bad at doom"

I normally hate the "if you hate it, you must be shit" argument but the whole point of TNT and Plutonia was that they were love letters to veteran players of the games. If you aren't someone who has played doom so much that you play on Nightmare by default, you shouldn't be playing Final Doom. I mean, you shouldn't be playing TNT period since most of the maps are just empty boxes with bland encounters, but Plutonia is fucking great.

>>5086631
Doom 2 WAS bad you fucking goober. Like TNT it starts off strong but then just goes into full garbage mode after Dead Simple. The only good map in Doom 2 after DS is Tricks and Traps.

>>5086631
I didn't imply Doom 2 was bad, I implied it wasn't seamless. I'm also not implying that Plutonia is better than Doom 2, I'm outright saying it is.

>>5086634
I think the game was good AFTER the crusher. Before that, everything was a brown-grey pile of dogshit.

>>5086634
>Tricks and Traps
>Good map
I bet you love tryhard garbage like terrywad bosses.

>>5086312
>quit plutonia on level 2
Whew lad.

>>5087218
Tricks and Traps was good in the context of Doom 2 because it was unexpected. When entire megawads try to emulate that shit it really sucks.

All my niggas that beat Plutonia pistol start ay

All my niggas that beat Plutonia pistol start on UV say ay ayyy

All my niggas that beat Plutonia pistol start on UV with no mid-level saving say AYYYY YO

>>5084438
friendly reminder that the people who complain about hitscanners are the same kind of people who think cover is pussies and run out trying to be rambo only to wonder why they died 5 minutes later.

use cover and git gud

>>5086312
i love playing brutal mods on that level because you can make the bridge visible with the blood of your enemies.

>>5087595
Well that's why doom is fun because it's meant to be played Rambo style, whereas all modern fps are cover shooters.

>>5087218
The fuck is the connection between Terry Wads and Tricks and Traps? I just thought the map was extremely fun. I think Terry wads are overrated boring garbage that only idiots find funny anymore.

>>5087327
I didn't pistol start it but I played it through in two sessions on UV. I have completely fallen in love with it.

>>5084438
You get plenty of cover most of the time in Plutonia. In the cases you don't, it's because it's a trap that you should be avoiding.

>>5086312
The invisible bridge has four sets of posts that show you where it is. I won't blame you for missing them because their color palette blends in a little bit at a glance. I missed them at first and had to shoot the ground to find the bridge.

>cyberdemon on the first stage
Wow okay

I played some of the new Project Brutality with Plutonia. Why the fuck does it add foliage everywhere in the first level, and the first level only? Foliage that blocks my sight of the chaingunners above me from the tunnel? Why the fuck does reloading the shotgun take all my shotgun ammo, even if I am only missing one round? Why is the game way easier despite playing on UV? Why is "Brutal" the way it's meant to be played when it's such a cakewalk? Why is "12 on the 10 point scale" or whatever it's called not the way it's meant to be played? This is fucking trash.

>>5087627

This is the biggest reason I was disappointed with both Doom 3 and the remake, slowly traversing a dark corridor and facing off against 2-3 monsters max is NOT doom. The fatality shoot in the new one only slows down gameplay more than making it feel more brutal.

>>5087823
BD should have just stayed as a gore and graphics mod. It's garbage now.

Explain this garbage.

Doom is a shit fps series

>>5087897
There's an invisible bridge you walk across. If you took a leap of faith down to the bottom and walked into an invisible wall you'd have realized this. I figured this level out myself when I was 10 years old man come on it's not that difficult.

>>5087935
I know that. I'm wondering why the Mario brothers thought it was a good idea to design a fucking invisible bridge in Doom.

>>5087327
AYYYY YOOOOOOOO with no free aiming too, but I did it in GZDoom, so that's kinda cheating too. I keep meaning to do it in PRBoom+ now that I've made it my go-to port.

>>5087627
then don't complain about getting DP'd by hitscanners fuckboy.

i like doom as much as the next guy but it's pretty easy to the point where if you struggle with any of the games on UV or higher it's pretty much your own fault.

>>5087837
glory kills are optional and you can turn them off.

>>5087327
AYYY YOO
I recorded demo's of each level in every difficulty except NM. I should still have them somewhere
I was even autistic enough to record different demo's for Go 2 It for each skill level, even though the map is exactly the same on skill 2-4

>>5084205
If you played the PSX version, that one is in many aspects very inferior, rather than being the actual complete Final Doom, it first gives you most of TNT Evilution, and then gives you a mix of The Master levels, along with a few of the early maps of Plutonia at the very end.
There is no Arch-Vile in the PSX releases, and the Revenant is strongly nerfed, this, along with the level geometry of Plutonia being generally more complex and featuring far more monsters on average, means that a lot of what makes Plutonia good cannot be easily represented.
Plutonia's Hunted for instance, would just not work without the viles, and some would argue the average player at the time wasn't good enough with a controller for it to be realistically viable for them to play, Oddysey Of Noises is nowhere to be seen either. Plutonia was a big step up from the original game's fairly mild difficulty level.
You only get the plainest and least challenging parts of Plutonia, missing out on a lot of good and cool stuff.

>Why the fuck did Valve hire these assholes?
Valve hired Dario Casali for his entire resume. I have no idea how many of his maps were in the PSX version, but certainly not his really strong work on Plutonia.

>>5084575
>>5086324
I think what he's getting at is Dario Casali, who made half of Plutonia, together with his brother Milo, this level set being commissioned by iD Software as part of the deal to buy TNT, and then bundle and publish them together as a commercial product: Final Doom.
Dario would go on to be a lead level designer at Valve Software, which he still is to this day.
Given that Valve stopped making games to become publishers/hatmongers, I'm thinking they're wasting his time and talent over there.

>>5084438
GIT
U
D

Mobility and dodging is key to success in Doom, but there's very appropriate times to use cover as well. If a guy with a shotgun or machinegun is where he can shoot at you, your new number one priority is to either kill him immediately, move to a place where he can't shoot you, or the most fun one, tricking him into shooting at other enemies.
Just like how you gotta break line of sight to not become crispy bacon at the mercy of the Arch-Vile, you really need to mind the line of sight between you and an angry baldy with a shotgun.

>>5086328
TNT is overall pretty good until the last third, where a bunch of the levels just aren't very good.
I do like it a lot more for it's atmosphere and music though.

>>5086634
Doom 2 had lots of decent maps, among a bunch of meh and bleh ones.
TNT I felt was overall better than Doom 2 on average, if just barely.

>>5088683

The irony is as primitive as it is, Doom’s gun mechanics are more realistic than alot of modern shooters. Get in front of a gun? Bullet goes straight and kills you. Alot of these call of duty games you can stand out in an open field with a dozen CPU soldiers firing at you and I swear the stormtroopers from Star Wars are better shots.

>>5088824
>Stormtroopers from Star Wars
as opposed to the other notorious stormtroopers with bad aim?

>>5087218
Absolute non-sequitur.

>>5087627
You can totally go Rambo in Doom, and in plenty of scenarios this is the best course of action, but fact is that shotguns and chainguns actually hurt, and if you find them a nuisance, the logical step is to adapt and develop strategies to ensure the best success when fighting them.
Frequently, this is as simple as stepping behind a pillar or corner for a split second, to break line of sight, then popping back out to pound them and resume what you were doing.
A lot of the monsters require you to get to know how they attack and thus adapting to it, so why is it then bad to run from cover to cover to avoid lead poisoning?
Zombies are predictable, and not very durable, while particularly prone to causing infighting, an ambush can hurt a lot, but you shouldn't be struggling or finding yourself constantly frustrated.

>modern cover based shooters
How the shit is that relevant? A large bulk of those games are built on linear corridor engagements with chest high walls, and often a dedicated button to make you stick to dedicated cover pieces, featuring enemies highly reluctant to advance on you. Doom plays nothing like this (for one, enemies will try to advance towards you constantly, at any cost), there's a world of difference between Pressing Triangle To Hug The Crate, and briefly stepping behind a random archictural feature, or another monster, to avoid buckshot or a salvo of bullets with your name on them. It's not like you can't seamlessly meld this strategy to the typical strafing-dodging dance, it's not like you aren't literally faster than a pro-athlete.
If you fail to see why this is valid, and even beneficial, you're just fucking dumb.

>>5088824
I really hate damage mechanics in a lot of modern tactical shooters, a burst from a GMPG should kill the shit out of you, not tickle, a pistol caliber subgun should certainly not be deadlier, even soft armor would reliably stop most of them.
One round of 7.62mm NATO can reliably kill a fucking elk, what the fuck chance would you have against five of those center mass?
The vidya trope of making a machinegun have individually super weak shots so you are forced to use volume to cause damage, is one that I hate with a passion.
Further you have those games where shot just disappears like 10ft from the muzzle of your shotgun.

Meanwhile, in Doom (or for that matter, Duke Nukem 3D), a full hit with the shotgun hurts horribly if you have no armor, and you yourself can reliably shoot at and hit things at like 40ft, usually scoring over half your pellets, and often all of them at larger targets or groups.
The stuff you can't oneshot is generally demons the size of bears and elephants, where this makes perfect sense.

Oh yeah, and regen health can only ever be good if limited/incremental.

Doom is not the pinnacle of fps games

>>5088963
Did Romero run over your dog or something?

>>5088969
Not the pinnacle

>>5088827
Yeah, remember that scene in A New Hope where Han and Luke infiltrate the Deathstar, get found, then are gunned down by elite soldiers displaying advanced CQB tactics?
Kind of a weird anti-climax in how the villains won, you don't often see the heroes getting Mozambique Drilled halfway through the movie.

Always wondered if they were ever planning any sequels, but I guess not.

>>5088963
>>5088975
Cucked by Carmack.
Did he go "MMM" with every thrust into your wife, as he made eye contact with you?

>>5088985
Seething idfag

>>5088824
While I pretty much agree, I also want to be a little bit fair:

>Alot of these call of duty games you can stand out in an open field with a dozen CPU soldiers firing at you and I swear the stormtroopers from Star Wars are better shots.
There's potential scenarios where you could face people who can't shoot worth a dick, for instance a lot of South American cartel types are known to kind of just stand out in the open and magdumping from the hip, because a lot of them have literally only learned from guns in action movies.

Another is regarding pistol calibers, most service pistols are very mediocre at one-shot-kills, if you've got a lot of adrenaline pumping, potentially you can be shot several dozen times over the course of like 8 minutes or something, and you're so pumped, determined, and not really feeling the pain, that you keep going.
Of course, what then soon happens is that you slump over and die, because you bled out.
Shotguns and rifles are often pretty good at one-shot kills, particularly at closer ranges, but it's not rare at all for someone to be shot with a handgun and you die maybe 20-30 minutes later, or better yet get to a hospital in time (though gunshot injuries are prone to cause varying degrees of lasting disabilities through muscle or nerve damage, so there's that).

All in all though, very few games advertised as realistic, actually are in any genuine sense. There's so much more to it than almost correctly modeling an M4A1, and I think a lot of games would be better served by dropping that pretense.

>>5088986
>"I sold your wife to Facebook, MMMM."

>>5089015
Projecting

>>5089042
>>5088986
Buttmad

>>5089059
Ultima Underworld was better

Doom 2 I felt was the rushjob in terms of maps. Most of the maps are big, and feel more like tech demos or relying on gimmicks. Master Levels for Doom is way better and one of my faves.

Final Doom is a big step up from 2.

My rankings of episodes:

>Thy Flesh Consumed
> Knee-Deep in the Dead
>Master Levels
>Plutonia
>TnT
>No Rest for the Living
>Shores of Hell
>inferno
>Absolution (N64)
>Hell on Earth (Doom 2)

Is it wrong that I actually prefer PSX Doom and Final Doom?

Pros:

>great ost
>sort of "best of" map selection
>great ambience
>great lighting
>no in-level saving (prevents save-scumming)
>easier overall (combined with above is great perfect balance)
>overall slower with more awkward movement (helps balance)
>Nightmare Spectres

Cons:
>missing levels
>missing archville

>>5087897
There's a shoot switch to the left that raises some guides.

>>5089081
Assblasted

>>5089320
Honestly, just the reverb effect, fire sky, and colored sector lighting, all combined, do a LOT to create a special atmosphere, and while I like the original music a lot better, it kinda fits with what they're doing, particularly the new sounds, combined it gives the Playstation versions their own special mood and feeling.

If you haven't played the N64 game, seek it out.

PS emulators have OC options btw. You can get the game running very well, like at 30fps consistently no slowdown.

>>5089337
LOL FACEBOOK

>>5089423

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF_iZyD-lQ0

>>5087778
>Doom
>shoot the ground

>>5089320
they took a ballsy turn with the visual direction to set it apart from the other ports, and for the most part it paid off

>>5089650
>he doesn't use GZDoom with mouselook
if you don't crouch under baron balls and cum every time you slide under them you are objectively not playing the game to its fullest potential

>>5089081
PFFFF

Last month on the doomworld forums, a guy made a thread about his incomprehensible idea for a new game mod or something. I can't find the thread, anyone know what it was or have any keywords to google? All I remember is he made long, rambling posts, some diagrams or something I think, and most of the replies were about the guy being insane and trying to understand wtf he was saying.

>Enjoyed 1 and 2
>played this next
>Spams high level enemies right out of the bat like the typical spastic hacker that has no idea how to make something fun

Turned the game off after the first stage. Typical bad hack that has no rhyme or reason to it.

>>5084205
They did?

That explains literally everything I hate about half-life.

>>5086634

I think it's just the city levels that sucked.


MAP01 to MAP06; subterranean/starport levels:
Level 1: Entryway
Level 2: Underhalls
Level 3: The Gauntlet
Level 4: The Focus
Level 5: The Waste Tunnels
Level 6: The Crusher
All objectively good-to-great! Awesome start to the game


MAP07 to MAP11; hellish outpost levels:
Level 7: Dead Simple
Level 8: Tricks and Traps
Level 9: The Pit
Level 10: Refueling Base
Level 11: 'O' of Destruction!
Still pretty good. Tricks and Traps is a really fun level, even when you know all the traps. O of Destruction is good too!


MAP12 to MAP20; city levels:
Level 12: The Factory
Level 13: Downtown
Level 14: The Inmost Dens
Level 15: Industrial Zone
Level 16: Suburbs
Level 17: Tenements
Level 18: The Courtyard
Level 19: The Citadel
Level 20: Gotcha!
And now, any playthrough of Doom 2 slows to a fucking crawl. All of these levels are long, and are far more about finding switches and backtracking than they are about any sort of gameplay. All of these maps are objectively shit except for Gotcha!, which is a pretty good level. Whoever the fuck designed the City Levels clearly hates Doom.


MAP21 to MAP30; inside hell levels:
Level 21: Nirvana
Level 22: The Catacombs
Level 23: Barrels o' Fun
Level 24: The Chasm
Level 25: Bloodfalls
Level 26: The Abandoned Mines
Level 27: Monster Condo
Level 28: The Spirit World
Level 29: The Living End
Level 30: Icon of Sin
A return to good levels!


So, any Doom 2 playthrough has a big, terrible drag in the middle when the city levels hit. You're having a blast, blasting enemies, running around, and then BAM, 8 terrible and long levels in a fucking row.

>>5088663
>I think what he's getting at is Dario Casali, who made half of Plutonia, together with his brother Milo
>Dario would go on to be a lead level designer at Valve Software
What happened to Milo?

>mfw playing 'Speed'

>>5087327
I knew Plutonia is a step up from Doom 1 and 2 but I did not realize it was considered *that* difficult. I don't even consider myself a great Doom player. I mean, if you can save then you can beat any Doom map.

High quality bait

Okay I know I just called this bait but for real now.
Plutonia ain't hard. It's bullshit in some bits, sure, but once you get to know the levels it's pretty balanced actually. Caged for example is a cakewalk once you know how to get the secrets, even if done from pistol start

>>5091203
So are you an ay, an ay ay, or an ayy yo?

>>5090117
t.zoomer

>>5091534
Ayy ayy.

>>5090164
I'm inclined to agree, though there's about one 'meh' one in each of the other ones.
Nirvana, Catacombs, and Bloodfalls are not fun levels to me.
Chasm, Barrels O' Fun, Spirit World and Living End, are the bees knees, however.

>>5087597
settle down there, conan