/vr/ - Retro Games

>>5018406
The ass, you said it yourself, OP.

I love the gameplay of original Tom Raiders.
I guess it's an "aqquired taste", but the tits are like the last thing I love about those games.

>>5018406
For me the appeal is the atmosphere and the exploration. The boobs are good too, of course. Back when I played this game for the first time, 3D movement was still new for me. The only other 3D game I played besides TR was Mario 64. So getting used to the controls was not that hard. I still believe tank controls are much worse when you can't move the camera around, like the first RE.

I think the game plays much better on PC where you can press more directions at once. I tried playing with gamepad and had to give up quick. Maybe if you tried applying racing game controls then it could work.

Anyway your question is stupid. What is appeal of any game? The gameplay, the platforming, the puzzles. The locations are pretty nice. It's interesting to see how the whole action adventure genre started and how it evolved over the years.

Controls seem fine to me...at least you know if a jump will work or not unlike the good reboot trilogy where Lara sometimes just won't magnetize to the thing you're trying to grab and falls to her death for no reason because the devs decided you couldn't make the jump from point A to point B even though she literally can touch the ledge you went for...I call it cock blocked jumps, it basically means you can't make use of any logical shortcuts because the devs disabled grabbing from that path...it's the worst in Underworld.

peak boomercore

there's absolutely 0 reason to go deeper than Legend (TR7)

Controls are perfect once you get used to them

Zoomers just can't understand. Also, the controls are good, the only thing that's somewhat unreliable are jumps sometimes not going off, but there's a timing to it.
Everything else is pretty much high quality. I could argue TR3 has some bad design decisions, but it's not likely you will ever get to it.

>>5018406
The games play great. Stop using the fucking analog stick. The game uses an engine that was designed for the original PS1 controller that lacked the stick and used the D-pad.

And they were great and creative games, and challenging if you didn't use a walkthrough. They really compelled you to explore. It's a shame that the modern ones are just Uncharted clones because they really did suck the soul out of the franchise.

I still like them and replay them from time to time.

>>5018467
The original PC versions were keyboard-only and were a nightmare to play, especially if you're left-handed like me.

trial and error yields satisfaction like no modern games do.

I never got the drooling. She looks like an alien even on the cover.

>>5018623
People who can't accept opposition always try to latch off criticism to a boxed group that isn't actually saying anything. Most of us are in our 30s and 40s here. There are of-era reviews and anecdotes about people hating the controls. More importantly, your individualism isn't harmed because anons who share your demographic don't agree with you. It's fine if they're holding the same grievances 20 years later.

As for me, Tomb Raider games are okay. They're definitely an adjustment to get used to after other games. The combat and puzzles never coexisted well though.

Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine > Tomb Raider

>>5018758
Yes it does. Something's definitely been lost, which is probably why new fan-made Level Editor games based ont he classics keep on coming out.


>>5018768
Funny how her low-poly in-game rendering is so much nicer than her official artwork render.

>>5018770
>most of us are in our 30s and 40s
I wish.

>>5018662
This. the game has brilliant controls for precision jumping with a digital controller

>>5018623
Jumps always go off, Lara just only can jump after she's run at least one block from standing and during certain frames of her run animation so like you said it's timing, you have to press the jump button before you want her to jump and you have to count squares.

Walking to the edge, hopping backwards one square then taking a running jump is the "tomb raider" way

>>5018406
Zero handholding. Good controls where everything works as it should. It's pure 3D platforming and puzzle solving with no collectathon bullshit that other platformers suffered from in the era. Great atmosphere.

The combat is awful and should have just been left out.

>>5018406
>whats the appeal besides boobs?
Honestly, not even that. She looks like a plastic tranny, never got why retards fapped to her.

>>5018406
It's a puzzle game, not an action shooter.

>>5018406
It's a dating sim, not an action shooter.

>>5018406
It still plays great. I really like the precise grid based movement and the tension when you are high in the air and must execute your jumps correctly.

Also the secrets are well hidden and satisfying to find.

>>5018406

>>5018697
I'm left-handed and had fun playing it on keyboard. On the other hand, I'm absolutely unable to handle the game with any sort of pad. Just can't.
Guess different people, different strokes.

>>5018406
It plays fine, it's just precise.

Most other games let you get away with a lot, because the controls are forgiving, jump distances are short and falling to your death is a relic of ages past.

Tomb Raider says "fuck that" and has more precise controls, longer jumps and half the falls will kill you. Though some death falls can be avoided, mid fall, if you know what to do. But that's just it; you have to know what to do.
It was just a good game back then, but is a casual filter now.

Especially since the tutorial is optional, it focuses on exploration and hidden shit, it never tells you exactly what to do next, combat is basic and the whole affair has said precise controls.

A younger person would play this and be horrified at the prospect of having to figure something out, practice to get good and think about how to proceed.
Because all they want to do is run in a line and shoot things. Even open world games are like this. You get a mission, then run towards a dot on the horizon, while shooting things. No thought required.

Enjoy being a brain dead casual OP.

>>5018406
>plays like ass
Neck yourself
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQRr3pXxsGo

lmao at all the nostalgia blinded boomers defending this POS literally copy pasted SIX fucking times, at least the later games tried to do something new

>>5018957
What if I told you I've started playing Tomb Raiders after the reboot? Guess I've developed nostalgia retroactively to the game I didn't even acknowledge they exist prior to 2016.
But then again, you are pushing shitty boomer meme, so go fucking figure. Dropping off /v/ was really good idea.

>>5018770

I wish, anon. I wish the majority of this board was at least over 25. It's not the case.

>>5018406
Lara.

Tomb Raider II?

*crack* *sip*

Now that was a great game. They just don't make 'em how they used to.

>>5018957
>>5018987
/v/ has entered the thread.

>>5018987
They literally don't make them like that anymore, you moron.
Why do cretines pushing boomer meme are so fucking dense at doing it?

>>5018991
It's the final day of summer. Just few hours and this shit will be over...

>>5019019
I guess the irony was lost on you.

>>5018954
>That mid-air change of direction
What. The. Fuck.
No, seriously, what shit is this?! Mario?! It really was a good idea to drop the series finally, when Squenix took over, but this... this is just something simply disgusting. And they've spend creaming their pants for few years straight about making Tomb Raider """"""realistic"""""".
Jesus, Mary and Joseph...

>>5019028
It's not me posting boomer memes and thinking they are ironic, funny or belong anywhere but /trash/

>>5019034
>t. mad boomer
There will never be another tank controls 3D platformer, deal with it.

>>5019037
Nobody said anything about tank controls nor tried to defend them. Here, grab it, you seem to be desperate

kek cringey boomers liking old games roflmao

Not sure what's worse: OP starting TR thread with a blatant bait or the fact /v/ instantly flocked in

>>5018780
>Cheap clone of Tomb Raider made only when Tomb Raider proved it's possible to make such game is better than Tomb Raider
Yes, I'm perfectly aware how ironic it is that Indiana Jones has worse game than Lara, who started concept-wise as "Indy, but Latina and tits" (Relic Hunter, anyone?). It's the same kind of irony when modern Tomb Raider is compared unfavorably to Uncharted, aka the game created to fill the void left by TR dropping off the radar in mid-00s

>>5018806
>Zero handholding. Good controls where everything works as it should. It's pure 3D platforming and puzzle solving with no collectathon bullshit that other platformers suffered from in the era. Great atmosphere.
Exactly right. There are no adjustable difficulty levels, no pampering, no catering, and you just get right in. The only concession for first-time players is running through Lara's mansion.

The only parts I hate are the timed doors. They're a pain in the ass.

>The combat is awful and should have just been left out.
The combat is fine, and is in there because people did expect some sort of action element. But it doesn't dominate the game at all. Plus it makes more sense to shoot a security guard to aquire a key to move on than it is to just chance upon one in an air vent or something.

is there any actual modern successor? I love exploring dungeons and shit

>>5018406
ass

>>5019098
Look up the "Tomb Raider Level Editor" games where there's tons and tons of fan-made ones out there, many with greatly improved graphics while still retaining the original game dynamics.

You can start by searching for "TRLE" on mootube to see a few.

And yeah a lot of them suck, but a lot are really good. And people still make new ones all the time.

>>5018406
aaaasssss

>>5018406
Nobody ever gave two shits about the sex appeal, only sexually frustrated anti-social 13 year olds. I mean, just look at her she looks like a cheap blow-up doll.

>>5018805
>Walking to the edge, hopping backwards one square then taking a running jump is the "tomb raider" way
Fuckin` A gramps, fuck-in-A!

>>5018947
I hate how oblivion did this and fo3 started this trend

>>5019157
Grand Theft Auto did it.

>>5019098
As already said, go check TRLE. Then check levels with rating of 9.0 and above. Those ratings are aggrevated for past 15 years. If something managed to stay at 9, it's good/great. 8.5-9.0 range is also decent.
It's no exaggeration to say some of TRLE levels and mini-campaigns are better than what Core did in their peak.

>>5019143
>tfw you hear the music and guns blazing in your head
Talk about conditioning

>>5018406
It's a trash meme series. Nothing more.

>>5019135
This.
Lara was appealing, because she was cool and had crazy adventures, while Tomb Raiders were great because platforming and exploring places was fun as fuck.
Also, mind-blowing graphics. Shit really was impressive when it came out, especially for TR2 and 3.

>>5019282
>>5019283
Nice timing. Now fight

>>5019296
Meh. What for? Don't you know it's a standar meme since at least 2013 to shit on Core TRs? No point even confronting

>>5018662
>challenging if you didn't use a walkthrough
this, I literally breezed through a new lara game in an afternoon while I've never completed TR 2 and 3
shit was hard and cryptic and no gamefaqs and yt walkthroughs handholding

>>5019578
TR3 development was probably fund by prima guides company.

>>5018409
Beat me to it

>>5019697
TR3 is especially notorious in this regard, because even if you KNOW what to do and where to go, the design of levels demands for perfection. Reaching certain secrets can take dozens of attempts and that's when you are knowing what to do.
Also, fuck London without walkthroughs. I've managed to play through it once. Never tried again, just cheat-skip it every time I play. The levels are just plain annoying.

I've literally never played a Tomb Raider game. I like third person games that utilize "tank controls" optimized for digital gamepads, though. Should I check out the first one on the PS1, or is this considered an inferior version?

>>5020517

Wut? Of course you should. The remake has nothing to do with the original mechanics wise.

Play them all on PS1, maybe only Last Revelation and Chronicles on Dreamcast, since they look awesome, even better than on PC.

Is chronicles worth playing? A lot of people say it's the weakest one.

>>5020546

The scenarios are quite varied, but yes, you won't see new shit in terms of gameplay if you've play all the games before it. I did like her secret agent costume and also playing as a teenager though.

>>5020517
Depends what you mean by "inferior".
Are there better TRs made by Core? Of course.
Is the game bad or mediocre? Nope.

Best game in the series was TR4, since it had the best movement mechanics and the best level design in entire franchise. TR1 is a bit "sterile", because a lot of obvious moves weren't added to the game yet, but it's still perfectly playable and probably has the best atmosphere of entire franchise. You REALLY feel like a lone explorer of unknown.

>>5020546
Because it is the weakest one from Core and by far one of the weakest in the franchise (gaiden games and 2nd reboot are of course worse, but still)
Rome is fun, Russia is a mixed bag, Ireland works only if you like the survival horror vibe and NY is like London from TR3 met Die Hard and decided to have a kid.
The main issue with Chronicles is how fucking bugged it is, along with very uninspired levels.

>>5020517
The first one on PS is still by far my favorite in the series.

>>5020546
It was basically a cash grab filler title while they worked on Angel of Darkness.

And it's ok. It's nothing particularly great but it's worth playing.

>>5020719
If I remember correctly TR2 was the first one on PS with the first one released retroactively shortly afterwards.

>>5020482
https://youtu.be/8hW_keLNn-A?t=3156

>>5020786
No time to watch, but I highly doubt he picks secrets. Does he? If not, then it doesn't count.
And I'm perfectly aware certain levels can be done in a minute.

>>5020546
Let's put it this way:
The best part of Chronicles is that it came with Level Editor. Entire TRLE scene exists to this day based on that thing.
Game itself is the very definition of average, if you play modern, patched release. Levels aren't great, but don't outright suck. Puzzles aren't easy, but aren't complex either. Plot is so completely forgettable you just can't give a fuck, but it's not bad nor annoying. And so on and forth

>>5020753
You do not remember correctly. I bought a PS for Tomb Raider and Persona and ended up loving TR. When TR2 came out I was very excited for it but found it a let down.

>>5019282
>One of the most influencial games of its generation
>Trash meme series

>>5020889
Zoomers can't into context nor middle grounds. They will also tell you that the controls
>""""""aged"""""
badly and were absolutely user friendly in 1996 but not now not realizing that getting used to them was also a pain back then.

>>5020903
The controls did age badly though, you just don't understand the concept well.

As far as the classic PS1 games go, there were some pretty creepy environments, like the Opera House and the Maria Doria in TR2. Also the exploration and platform-puzzle solving was pretty engaging, despite the Prince of Persia-type lag.

>>5018947
>A younger person would play this and be horrified at the prospect of having to figure something out, practice to get good and think about how to proceed.
Yet Minecraft is one of the best selling games of all time.

>>5021057
1996
>"woah this is so hard to get used to"
2018
>"woah this is so hard to get used to"
?????

>>5021078
I like that your comeback to me telling you don't is to illustrate that you don't even understand a little. Nice!

>>5021123
What comeback? I'm legit asking you. People used to complain about the controls in TR all the time, that's unrelated to how old those games really are. And Mario 64 came out only a few months later anyway. Please provide relevant information instead of acting like a self entitled jerk.

>>5021076
well minecraft is very easy, very low skill curve, is just grindy

>>5021137
Okay since you ask nicely, I'll break it down for you. Something aging well versus badly has to do with the contrast between how it seemed when it was new (or newer anyway) and how it seems now.

So when Tomb Raider was new although it's controls weren't amazing, that was the case for most other games as well. And at the time no one had really nailed smooth yet precise 3d controls that felt good. So though it did have some people who complained that it should have had more actiony controls, those people mostly didn't like that it wasn't trying to be an action game.

As is the controls are a little jerky and unintuitive but they work well for the way the game is designed. Once you get used to them you always know whether you an make a given jump or not. Which is why despite some complaints it became a semi popular series for some time.

Now though, the controls for especially the first game would be so far below par that most would consider it borderline unplayable.

Compared to something else old with a control scheme that does hold up well beside contemporary games like say Street Fighter 2 you can see the difference between something aging well and not aging well.

>>5021632
Again, better alternatives started to come out that same year. No one felt comfortable with the grid based, tank controls of the Core games back then, those were always an adquired taste. You needed time to get used to them in 1996 and you need time to get used to them now. Is it about modern gamers not actually trying or something?

Because sure, you can use the aged logic and say that Mario 64 aged because it was considered the pinnacle of movement in a 3d enviroment back then and no one really minded the camera issues that some modern gamers complain about now, but Tomb Raider? Seriously? Something doesn't magically become more acceptable just because it's old.

>>5021667
>No one felt comfortable with the grid based, tank controls of the Core games back then,

I felt perfectly comfortable with them. Tomb Raider 1 is still one of my favorite PS1 games and as I said there, aside from them being stiff and a little jerky and unintuitive they work just fine for the game built around them. I still think the most vocal complaints were that it wasn't an action game.

I never cared a ton for Mario so didn't spend a lot of time with SM 64 but I wouldn't say it's controls aged much better. TR might actually hold up a little better.

>>5019143
First time encountering this big boi, it was unreal. The Lost Valley was probably my fav part, from the large waterfall you can dive off before you get to the valley itself to the Dinosaurs and all the little nooks and crannies you can go in.

Sometimes I like to avoid the Rex and let it live.

>>5020903
>Zoomer
No point reading rest of your post

>>5021667
Anon, Core's controls is what I enjoy in those games. Because I know EXACTLY what I'm going to do if I press X. The exact distance, the exact movement, even the amount of steps taken.
Which works with the grid system itself, allowing to measure distances for jumps and drops with ease once you understand the controls.

It's like you are want to pull some retarded revisionism for the sake of it, rather than simply accepting the fact Core's controls work exactly as intended.

>>5018478
You're on /vr/ you literal 12 year old. Fuck off back to your daycare center board.

>>5021761
T-Rex in TR2 > original T-Rex
Mostly because it's even more unexpected

>>5018435
This

>>5022581
Trex in tr3 is bullshit terminator.

>>5022581
The first one comes completely out of nowhere though. By the second game it was more expected they'd put another in. I shat my pants the first time I came upon it.

>>5020819
The PC versions ALL came with the level editor for the "gold" versions.

It's not just for Chronicles, albeit Chronicles was the last one to include it.

I recently sat down and played through TR1 and TR2,I had a total blast from beginning to end,TR2 in particular was really good.

I also liked the precise controls,the only real issue is moving and shooting at the same time.

Most people ITT weren’t even alive when these games came out.

>>5022676
>Stand still
>It can't see you
Best enemy design

Is the collection on PS2 playable nowadays? does it have nice controls and at least not absolute garbage graphics?

>>5018435
Yes. It's so good when you master Lara moves. My favorite kind of games

>>5024130
I like her boobs. I like her ass. I like her movement.

But I also enjoy the well-made game design. It's that simple. Excellent puzzles and worlds. It's no accident there are numerous decades old fan sites (not by incels) devoted purely to Tomb Raider still being updated.

>>5020816
He doesn't, but why would you if you dread the levels? It's not like you desperately need the items.

>>5022758
>Most people ITT weren’t even alive when these games came out.
Fuck you.
Pic related is how this makes me feel.

>>5023939
Really? I didn't notice that. All I remember I had to spend all my smg ammo or shooting him for 10 minutes non-stop with dual pistols.
Also those small raptors had almost the same amount of health as original t-rex, what were they thinking?

>>5024915
Most people ITT are not under 22. If they were it wouldn't make me feel old at 33.

>>5018697
Not true, you can map gamepad buttons to actions. There's even a built in preset for gamepads.

The game supported controllers. But not analogue sticks, but if you're PC gamer you know you can just use joy2key or something like that to solve the problem.

>>5024915
Hey Anon. You want your brain to hurt for a few minutes?

Super Mario Galaxy came out four years after 4chan was opened.

>>5022758
>tfw most people ITT were small kids when TR got it first reboot

>>5024992
You're lying! YOU'RE FUCKING LYING!

>>5018406
Exploration, fun puzzles, interesting storyline that gets the job done

>>5024913
Oh, you meant it in context of London, now I understand.
It's simple:
Skip-cheat three absolutely awful levels: 12 seconds/level
Speed-run three absolutely awful level: hours upon hours of memorising their design and playing for practice to breeze through them in few minutes.

>>5024939
>Fighting it
>Not sneaking by
>Not outrunning it
You can easily let it be and save yourself a lot of time and hassle.

>>5024995
Just fuck off spergers.

>>5018806
>Good controls where everything works as it should
HMMM. Like Lara not jumping if it's not properly timed? How is that 'working' as it should? Or when she turns really slowly while stading, can't run in sharp angles like a real person would etc. It's not awfull, but it's not great either. I can't get the apologists.

>>5025084
>How the game demanding player expertise and deliberate actions is working as it should?
Have you tried not being a complete plebian?
>can't run in sharp angles like a real person would
... or at least bother to play the games?

>>5025105
Then you have a pretty narrow definition of 'should'. And also can be easilly scoped to other games. 'Every game controls work as it should, you learn the controls, and then your expertise is rewarded' .Oh well
>... or at least bother to play the games?
I played all 3 on PS1

>>5025112
>All 3
>Out of 5 games
What did he meant by this?

>>5025112
Imagine being such amazing plebian you complain about perfectly soind controls, just because you are too lazy faggot to - wait for it - measure your jumps and apply basic timing. Aka something that every single fucking platformer ever demands.
Why you even play a platformer exploration game, if you clearly don't like platforming and would rather have it automated for you to not bother?

>>5025084
>Like Lara not jumping if it's not properly timed? How is that 'working' as it should?

If you try to make a jump where she doesn't have enough space to properly execute it, she simply doesn't. It works very well for a puzzle platformer like this.

Remember that the series is pretty much Prince if Persia us 3D with guns and boobs and both the control scheme and flow of the game make a lot more sense. that of course doesn't necessarily mean that you or someone else would enjoy PoP in 3D with guns and boobs. That's just what the game is going for

>>5025105
>>5025084
>>5025112

To make my point valid:
https://youtu.be/1T7ueLPuq94?t=589

Look at the video, after she falls down. The author of the video had to memorize this act, and you can see the flaws of controls in this setting. Had the controls in this game been flawless, he wouldn't have to memorize prior how to run up to the the shotgun shells in a correct arc, to make up for the flawed turn system. As in, it was correct to do very fast 180 degree flip, then to steer Lara to go around to grab the shotgun shells and escape in time.

In a well designed game, he would drop in, turn 90' to the shells, aproach them in a straight line, picked them up, turned 90' to the hole in the wall, and made an escape. This is common sense. But not in Tomb raider. 90 degrees are very slow in this game.

There is also problem with alligning Lara to press buttons and pull levers, when shes is aproaching the wall from different angles than perpendicularly. But I'm too tired too find a proper video.

Then there is ridiculous combat, but you already pointed that out.

>>5025157
>>5025161
>measure your jumps and apply basic timing
I had no problem with it - read the post above. The space for 'running up' to the jumps is the least of my concers. I just listed it for full reference of examples.

>>5025180
>You can see the flaws of controls
Only that I can't.
Not to mention that you are complaining the game expects from you being good at playing when doing a fucking timed sequence through a corridor full of traps.

Seriously, it all just sounds like bitching about "t-too hard", even if the game isn't really hard at all, but simply doesn't hold your hand and demands both experise and thinking on your feet.

But I can agree on combat. As long as you try to approach it "logically", you are bound to fail. On the other hand, if you approach it in the most outlandish way possible (aka like the rest of the game), it's suddenly lots of fun by juming pass enemies, making a flip-roll and riddling their backs with bullets before they can even react.

>>5025197
>Only that I can't.
Well congratulations.
>and thinking on your feet.
Oh yeah, because on that video he totally thought on his feet.

>Seriously, it all just sounds like bitching about "t-too hard"
projections. I never said Tomb raider is hard. I completed these games, they are about average in terms of difficulty. I'm analyzing the design.

>>5025180
It would be helpful if you posted the time stamp.

You can't argue there is a logical flaw in design when it's all subjective, - you can move exactly the same way in both if you want. He didn't have to memorize anything or if he did, you face the same memorization in parts of other games. Tank controls are good when you want Lara to run in a straight line regardless of where the camera starts to go.

>>5025210
He posted a timestamp.
>>5025180
I know what you mean, but it's futile to argue with people here.

>>5025210
Sorry, I posted the timestamp a bit too early, when he saved before falling further down.
https://youtu.be/1T7ueLPuq94?t=593

>>5025180
>I'm shit at platformers
>REEEE BAD CONTROLS

>>5025210
>Tank controls are good when you want Lara to run in a straight line regardless of where the camera starts to go.
The controls are not bad because they are tank controls i.e "the character moves in a pointed direction regardless of camera".

>you face the same memorization in parts of other games
This type of memorization? In badly designed games, yes. Keep in mind, I do not bash some aspects of Tomb raider gameplay, like jumping past the blades while running, allocating jumps, pathfinding, puzzles. Those are ok, and how gaming can be done. You can still die in those, but purely because of your own fault, not design fault. That kind of memorization is good. There are examples of games that do this right from start to finish, and not only some of the time.

>You can't argue there is a logical flaw in design when it's all subjective
>You can't point flaws, because everything is subjective.

>>5025235
Let me guess, you clicked the timestamp 5 times, didn't comprehend anytihng of waht I just said, so you backpedalled to le 'funny' images folder and returned to your old 'entartaining' argument? Or is this another idiot?

>>5025209
>because on that video he totally thought on his feet.
Honestly? By the time I was playing TR3, right from the box, I already knew everything I could expect, so up until Lud's Gte (I picked London as first on my first play-through) I managed to just play "by guts", rather than having anything memorised or knowing what to do, since, well, first time ever. And then came rest of the game, which still wasn't challenging at all in terms of movement. Maybe Temple of Puna was tricky, because the jump over the big roller is extremely counter-intuitive, but that's just one fuck-up to know.

And the design is perfectly fine.

>>5025250
Just because you are a fucking moron doesn't mean everyone is, so stop projecting your own issues and mental deficiencies on others.
Saw it with the time-strap, because only newfag would try to watch a video with a set timer directly via 4chin. Still doesn't make you right. Still doesn't make your complains moot. Still doesn't make you any less of a faggot.

>>5025262
It's not about whether or not it's challenging.

>>5025265
It's ok you didn't get it. Don't think about it too hard when you pack someones groceries/french fries.

>>5025275
>Y-you just don't get it!
Or maybe you are simply wrong?

>>5025273
And I'm not talking about challenge either, but simple conditioning. After playing those games for quite a while, a lot of things become second nature and automatic.
You would be able to understand that if either you played any of those games for more than 5 minutes or your reading comprehension wasn't horrible.

>>5025250
>He doesn't have a folder with memes ready for quick use

>>5025180
All you achieved with that video is proving you are completely and utterly wrong.

>>5025279
> After playing those games for quite a while, a lot of things become second nature and automatic.
And thats ok. The flaws are fleshing out only if you have a perception and some kind of imagination. In none of my posts did I say Tomb raider is hard, or can't be worked with, or that it is shit. It's controls aren't perfect. Period. IF the designers weren't rushed to churn out one game after another by the publisher, they would have perhaps fixed these. And the publishers kinda proved their point. Why make something better when the masses do not see the difference?

>>5025286
I'm still waiting for your arguments boy. Which won't come to surface, because one couldn't elicit from you anything else than seething, ad personam and reaction images, even if one would really try to educate you. You are hardly entartaining and have nothing to say. I think I said everything in the topic, you can try to refute my points, but I doubt you have the capabilities.

>>5025213
>>5025229
wtf, we're speaking in riddles now? He didn't post a time stamp, ie. the actual time in plain english so I can go to it straightaway. Yes I can clearly see the part of the link that says t=593 smart guys but when I click on embed it doesn't come up properly for me, it is at the beginning of the video. It takes some time to copy and paste it into a new tab, it also takes some time to convert into minutes and seconds (maybe less in this instance since it's near 600) and I'm not going to do it. Sure it took me longer to type this out, I'm not going to it on principle because it's a bad way to post, just give the time stamp in future and everyone is happy.

>>5025180
>why doesn't lara control like mario??
>all games should control similarly
>learning a new control scheme over many hours is annoying
>memorizing a tough scripted event for optional items/secrets is annoying

This guy is why modern games are shit.

>>5025187
Well at least you understand that the jumps work just fine. I'm not bothering to watch the video you posted but your complaints sound based around it being a little janky, which is fine. The first game particularly is a little stiff in how it's animations line up, bit it still all works well within the game.

>>5025359
>why doesn't lara control like mario??
Missed the point. I like the tank controls, I even said they weren't a problem in some other post
>all games should control similarly
No, they shouldn't.
>learning a new control scheme over many hours is annoying
Tomb raider is easy to learn. Took you many hours? Well...
In any case, the point of the post was not about learning curve or difficulty.
>memorizing a tough scripted event for optional items/secrets is annoying
No problems with that. I just levaraged this particular example to analyze the movement, and how it could be improved. The one-two particular flaws.

>This guy is why modern games are shit.
You are example of somebody who comes to wrong conclusions.

>>5025398
>Missed the point. I like the tank controls, I even said they weren't a problem in some other post

Lara does not turn 90° fast enough for you. That is your entire point.

The only way this can be a GAME DESIGN FLAW is if you think there should be a turning speed standard which is idiotic.

>>5025372
>around it being a little janky, which is fine
Except the level designers had to keep this jankiness in mind. It's a shame, really. Because Tomb raider is the only 3D simulationist explorer platformer type of game of quality. That's why people have no comparison, and its harder for them to imagine anything else. Comparing it to Croc/Spyro/ won't really do. Monopoly gives you quite the power.

>>5025416
>Lara does not turn 90° fast enough for you. That is your entire point.
One of the points. In this particular post, there was also the problem with Lara aproaching levers and items, but I have no more interest to tinker with that.

>The only way this can be a GAME DESIGN FLAW is if you think there should be a turning speed standard which is idiotic.
Then, perhaps lets make it even slower.

One of my solutions would be to leave the turning speed as is, and introduce a button that speeds up Lara turning for tough, emergency situations. I belive one of the Ps1 buttons were free anyway.

>>5025420
>Except the level designers had to keep this jankiness in mind. It's a shame, really.

I always felt like they did. The control scheme is a little stiff, but I always thought it worked really well for the game designed around it. I don't think it's a shame at all.

And comparing it to Spyro or Crash is really a little pointless. It's like ragging on Prince if Persia for not being another Mario clone. They're very different kinds of games.

>>5025437
>>Lara does not turn 90° fast enough for you. That is your entire point.
>One of the points. In this particular post, there was also the problem with Lara aproaching levers and items, but I have no more interest to tinker with that.
Oh yeah, sorry for overlooking the amazing observation that Lara can't use a lever without facing it.

>>The only way this can be a GAME DESIGN FLAW is if you think there should be a turning speed standard which is idiotic.
>Then, perhaps lets make it even slower.
You seem to be assuming that no thought went into her turn speed or is somehow limited by the engine or something. (lol) The devs found a nice sweet spot that gave Lara a unique and weighty feeling. Millions of tomb raider fans agree which is why they didn't change it.

>One of my solutions would be to leave the turning speed as is, and introduce a button that speeds up Lara turning for tough, emergency situations. I belive one of the Ps1 buttons were free anyway.

Yeah, great idea...a dedicated turn speed button....maybe just enjoy the game and appreciate what makes tomb raider unique?

Why do you keep feeding that stupid piece of shit?

>>5025463
> The devs found a nice sweet spot that gave Lara a unique and weighty feeling.

I agree with this and think it further supports my perspective that most of Tomb Raider's detractors mostly wanted it to be more of an action gake than it was ever trying for.

>>5025437
>Lara has to face levar to interact with it
>Problem

>>5025510
He wants it to be a modern game where you just have to get sort of close to something and then hit A to win.

Hey guys I found a similar design flaw with MK's fatalities - you have to press too many buttons. I suggest that pressing start and up should perform a fatality, that would be a lot more straightforward and less frustrating.

>>5025529
No, but seriosly, how "face button to press it" is a problem in any way? Not to mention the game has a lot of free space left, so you don't need to be extremely precise with it, as Lara will self-align herself, as long as you are facing the right direction and are close enough. The only difference from modern games is distance tolerance, because you need to be 1/3 of a "square" away to interact, while in modern games you can stand two meters away and the game will still acknowledge your imput.
I would understand if it was something about obtuse level of precision needed, but holy shit, this is just pure retardation

>>5025585
>I would understand if it was something about obtuse level of precision needed, but holy shit, this is just pure retardation

Yeah I still wouldn't be surprised if this whole thing was a troll. It's so bizarre.

>>5019148
Congratulations, you just pulled off a running ledge jump with no effort all, in a game that requires lots of different kinds of jumps, climbing, and other sorts of interaction with different shaped polygons.

Fuckin A is right you 10 year old retard, it's quick, easy, and gets the job done effortlessly.

>>5025649
what the fuck are you going on about? yeah people who played tomb raider when it first came out had to figure this out and like gramps said it is "the tomb raider way..." we know the game involves different types of "interactions" you fucking retarded autist. the fuckin A part is from recognizing the little inside joke gramps said. its nothing fancy or cryptic, but you managed to fuck it up real good, dipshit!

My brain hurts. Is this what it feels like to be in an autist asylum?

>>5021632
>And at the time no one had really nailed smooth yet precise 3d controls that felt good.

lol what. Ever heard of a game called mario 64? Came out before tomb raider and absolutely destroys it. Hell even fucking bubsy 3d controls better than tomb raider.

>>5025649
>, in a game that requires lots of different kinds of jumps, climbing, and other sorts of interaction with different shaped polygons.

What are you getting upset about? I don't understand, is this supposed to be a bad thing or something?

>>5025762
Not him but Mario 64 is to Super Mario what Tomb Raider is to Prince of Persia. They're in related genres, but very differenr types of games.

>>5025781
ok. It still controls like shit.

>>5025783
Meh, it's fine to prefer one over the other. I prefer both of them to any of the Mario games myself. And Tomb Raider wouldn't really work with Mario 64's control scheme. Like PoP it's all about lining up specific jumps. It's not a freeform platfomer like M64, it's a puzzle game.

>>5025785
I thought pop was only made like that to accommodate the animations?

>>5025790
It's designed around it's animations, if you want to look at it that way. Anyways, I certainly wouldn't fault anyone then or now for not liking Tomb Raider, the first one especially. But it's one of my favorite games of the era and I think it's control scheme suits the game design really well.

>>5018406
How long does the 1st game take to complete on average?

>>5025838
I'd say 15 to 20 hours or so depending how much you went looking for secrets.

>this amount of autism
What's wrong with this fanbase?

>>5025916
>fanbase
?? Did you read the thread? The dude freaking out is the hater

Getting spooked

>>5018947
this encompasses some of my favorite game play elements.

no hand holding covers most of it like invisible walls protecting you from falling off cliffs, tutorial is optional,but amazingly well done and its fun to fuck around in laras mansion getting used to the control again. map markers or an npc telling you exactly where to go while en route, complex control scheme. i like games that make you learn a new way to use the controller, keeps things interesting. good puzzles, not babies first puzzle game i.e. zelda... oh push a box over this giant switch in the ground, shoot the eye with an arrow, wow gee i never wouldve fucking guessed! the only gripe i have is the horrible aiming system and infinite dual pistol ammo, but it is fun as fuck to flip jump upside down and sideways while blasting wildly at a bear.

great game, brainlets need not apply!

>>5024992
>the 2000's were 29 years ago

>>5019030
ohh i see what youre talking about.

>>5025025
Stop cheating

>>5025459
>I always felt like they did. The control scheme is a little stiff, but I always thought it worked really well for the game designed around it. I don't think it's a shame at all.
There was more potential in level design, but ok.
>And comparing it to Spyro or Crash is really a little pointless.
Reading comprehension. I just said they are different genre.
>>5025463
>Oh yeah, sorry for overlooking the amazing observation that Lara can't use a lever without facing it.
Twisting my words yet again, but ok . This is a bit more complex problem, but won't try to explain.
>Millions of tomb raider fans agree which is why they didn't change it.
Except that the sales dropped after 2. And in any case, that's not an argument. Many series were outright broken and still people bought them. Perhaps if they had been allowed to make better game, it wouldn't transform into yet another action game in the next generation.
>You seem to be assuming that no thought went into her turn speed or is somehow limited by the engine or something
You seem to never have to handle any project, and comprehend why any such changes might delay or cancel the product.
>maybe just enjoy the game and appreciate what makes tomb raider unique?
I do enjoy it. And its unique becaue it was/is the only game of this type in the market. That doesn't mean you should do felatio on it and turn off your thinking.

>I agree with this and think it further supports my perspective that most of Tomb Raider's detractors mostly wanted it to be more of an action gake than it was ever trying for.
The combat was shit and the game would be better off without it. Yet had to please the fans.

>>5025594
>It's so bizarre.
Even shocking and inconceivable to some.

>>5020517
DOS + Glide Wrapper + music fix is the best version of 1. PC is still best for the others too (no save restrictions mostly). You can get a widescreen patcher for 2+.

>>5018406
Imagine Tomb raider being about a guy in a skimpy outfit.

Would you still play it?
Having to look at his ass while he goes for the countless ledges, and hear his wheezes when he bashes into walls or pulls/pushes puzzle stones? Silly acrobat fliping around like a faggot around the enemies and shotting down at them. Maybe lets give him a Nights or Pandemonium Jester costume. Not so great now, huh?

>>5025838
>Blind, zero experience with Core's TRs
Anywhere between 15 to 25 hours
>Walkthrough, no experience with with Core's TRs
13-18 hours
>Blind, experience with Core's TRs
Anywhere between 10 to 15
>Walkthrough or straight-out having game memorised, experience with Core's TRs
10 hours, period

>>5026017
>infinite dual pistol ammo
As far as TR1 and 2 are concerned, design-wise, your default weapons are the micro-Uzis. By TR3 it's combination of "heavy" artillery - MP5 and DEagle. And so on and forth, all the way until AoD came out.
Not to mention shotgun is your to-go weapon for most of the series anyway, due to early access, good stopping power and abundant ammo.
Just saying, it's not like I don't myself have fun with firing wildly the pistols.

>>5026191
>Imagine Tomb raider being about a guy in a skimpy outfit.
... so?
Sounds like it still had to be not late enough for some super-machismo Amerifat to post and complain about character design not being "serious" enough.

Shit, son, we have a game with a babe in a swimsuit and shorts fighting centaurs throwing explosive sacks of meat and you complain about it being """"""sexist""""" or how bad it would be if it was a dude in crazy suit.
The dude in crazy suit would fit exactly same way. People really tend to forget how fucking outlandish TRs 1-3 were, along with GOLD games to them. It wasn't until TR4 when the game picked "serious" tone and something resembling a coherent plot, even if a lot was ripped off from freshly released The Mummy

>>5026232
>or how bad it would be if it was a dude in crazy suit
it just wouldn't sell

>>5026248
Son, how young are you exactly?
Because you either missed most of the 90s (and what kind of characters it bred) or think the advertising for Tomb Raider was always about tits and not, you know, tomb-raiding in 3D environment. Lara wasn't part of the marketing until TR2, meaning you could literally replace her and achieve the exact same effect, as long as your dude in crazy suit would pass the same requirements: cool character with aura of mystique around him.
Quick glimpse into probably the most used ad:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWdlU-lwgVY
Yep, dude in crazy suit would work just as well.

>>5026248
Oh look, it's another episode of "Tomb Raider only sold because it had tits on the cover"

>>5026248
If it was a dude, regardless of how crazy his suit would be, LucasArt would came knocking to the doors with their lawyers. That's literally the only reason why it was Lara and not Tom, Harry or Jim. And originally she was Laura Cruz, Hispanic hottie, to further distance her from Indy. She only got overhauled for British nobility to capitalise on home market, since TR wasn't even planned to be released outside UK initially. And as far as everyone in development and publishing was concerned, the selling point was in the game itself (TPP, full 3D, "cinematic" adventure [yes, it's that old trend of marketing], absolutely unique content and style)
In other words - you are wrong for whole bunch of reasons.

>>5026169
>There was more potential in level design, but ok.

Lol

>>5026248
>>5026261
>>5026264
>>5026270
I agree the sex apeal wasn't sold until TR2. The author of the character claimed it himself, much to his disdain for the direction of the series. Then again, the marketing of the TR2 and TR3 could enhance the sales of TR1. So I wouldn't rule out the tits factor out of the equation yet. Also, look at the graph: TR2 sold better, perhaps due to better campaign.

Regardless of all that

The big question(s) is: Why did people stop buying Tomb Raider? Even in the first generation you can see sales decline.
Perhaps if the developers made better work, series wouldn't turn into mediocre, mediocre selling action game on PS2. But of course, you all will keep regurtiating that it was a perfect game, no middle ground. If it was perfect, where did the clients go? It was the same demographics, it's not like they suddenly dissapeared.

>>5026316
>Why did people stop buying Tomb Raider?
It's a really complex matter and I don't really think there is a way to describe it under 2k limit. Instead of explaining details, I will provide bulletpoints to cut it down in size:
- technological gap getting bigger by each year
- absolutely toxic relationship between Core and Eidos
- Eidos running the series to the ground, modern Ubisoft style
- harrowing work to bring new game next year (leading directly to fucking killing Lara in TR4; yes, that was intended end of the series, she died)
- Core's size vs work-load
- Core's internal (lack of) structure combined with their size
- way of doing business in the 90s
- increasing dependency of Eidos to stay afloat on TR
- starting from TR3, each game was made by different team, with no regulars present, affecting content
- over-saturation due to non-stop output on the market, again, modern Ubisoft is good comparison with shitting new Ass Creed on yearly basis (game industry is clearly unable to learn lessons from the past)
- bunch of personal reasons within Core
- Eidos de-acceleration of marketing after TR2 (they've essentially assumed they've created enough momentum to last forever and less money spent = more profit)
- a lot of shady corporate practices affecting quality further

Each of those is a matter for separate discussion, but during 20th anniversary of TR1, a bunch of in-depth interviews with all the original devs, important people from Core during their tenure and what not was published, uncovering a metric fuckload of really nasty shit going with the series between TR1 premiere and start of development for AoD.

tl;dr shit was nasty, with split of blame being 2:8 between Core and Eidos and Core being essentially an indie dev working on AAA title

>>5026313
>lol
Sorry, english is not my first language.
What I meant to say:
There is more potential to be gained in terms of level design by supporting/tweaking the controls to perfection. More dynamic trap corridors, larger levels, faster gameplay etc. Of course, if the hardware would allow it.

>>5026327
Yeah, sure it could potentially have been better. It's so obvious it's funny. I still don't begrudge anyone for whom Tomb Raider isn't their cup of tea, but the amount of angst and anger over it in this thread is kind of hilarious.

>>5026323
Thank you for in depth company situation. But, why the people have decided with their wallets to buy less Tomb raider(purely from 5th generation consoles view, nevermind the ps2 crap)? What could have been done better, in terms of gameplay, controls, level design, to attract more people?

>>5026330
> but the amount of angst and anger over it in this thread is kind of hilarious.
I know, right? So much hatred because somebody has different opinion on design and control model. And I even like the series to begin with, just trying to analyze it thoroughly.

>>5026334
Hmm, now I see that the flame grown thicker because my neutral reviews were interlaced with some other dudes bashing of the game. It would be helpfull if this place had temporary nicknames.

>>5026332
Let's put it this way:
Core wanted to migrate to PS2 the moment it was announced, fully understanding that:
- their engine is dated
- it was written by Gavin Rummery in early '95 and it was his FIRST GAME PROJECT EVER, so imagine how this worked script-wise
- even if staying on PSX, the engine was dated anyway, being superflous patch over old code with each new game

On the other hand, there is the way how Core worked on TRs. It was a very small company working in home-office 55 Ashbourne Road, Derby - go look that house out and they were sitting on the bottom floor only, with only single room reserved for working on TR series with a handful of people at their disposal. The first game had the advantage of being in development for 2 years, but TR2 was churmed up in just 8 months. At least in case of TR2 they had the advantage of having all the original team sans Toby Gard ("father" of the whole game) and Paul Douglas (lead programmer), so the people knew what to do and how to. But TR3 was AGAIN made in 8 months to meet Eidos absurd demands, this time around without a single person involved in TR1 and 2, aside maybe Andy Sandham, who did secondary programming in TR2. And before they were even done with TR3, there was ALREADY demand for TR4 for following year
We are talking about rush job of people sitting on the project 14-16 h/day, collapsing marriages (Neal Boyd, one of original devs, ended with divorce), non-existing personal lives and generally being codeg slaves absolutely loathing the shit they're doing, but having contracted obligation to deliver. All while they had at peak 14 people to work on the project and half of them first-timers fresh out of uni or self-taugh
Aka inadequate resources with absurd time-frame to fit. And STILL delivered

Sales dropping is thus a combination of: oversaturation, less marketing, loss of "freshness", progressively more aged engine (a LOT of reviews started to point that out all the way back in TR3)

>>5026348
*coding slaves

>>5026348
>Core's office
Please tell me this is some sick joke

>>5018768
You're on a board where people can lovingly describe how they got their first boner to poorly made sprites that barely resemble a woman and how they masturbated to it dozens of times.

An ugly 3d render doesn't sound too outrageous by these standards.

>>5026354
Nope. Before TR, Core was essentially one of those tiny-ass gaming companies that cropped in UK in the late 80s thanks to the huge home computer market and started out as bunch of guys experimenting with their skills. Absolute British standard of that period.
The only "problem" was they've stuck gold with TR, while still being in everything but unit sales a small-fry. And thanks to the fact they were contracted, rather than paid percentage or anything even resembling a fair share of income, Core was making around half a million dollars per game (split then between people involved) and ONLY after the game was in retail. Meaning they had to finish production to get any funds at all. So all in all they've being financially strangled by their own success.
Toby Gard, the creator of the game, earned... nothing. He quit before the first check came, and even if he stayed long enough, that was 10k pounds.

>>5026348
Source of sales dropping? The last I heard the TR franchise was strong up until AOD came out and ruined it.

>>5026409
You have the graph somewhere in this thread, posted by another anon. It was already droping after TR2.

>>5026412
And seeing it showed me that sales were still strong because factor in Blockbuster video and how many millions rented games at the time.

>>5018889
Those water 'textures' bring me the fuck back man.

I never really understood the hate Lara having big tits was supposed to engender- Indiana Jones was supposed to be this hot dude running around doing cool things, why can't Lara be the same?

>>5026316
>Why did people stop buying Tomb Raider? Even in the first generation you can see sales decline.

Although TR2 sold more than TR1, I think the problems with the game itself, not just the studio, were already apparent.

The grid-based level design/movement system has many postives, but once a player has mastered it, there's no way to challenge the player other than to make them do it faster, or fill a room with enemies, or make a more complex (or obscure) puzzle. One two-square jump is the same as every other two-square jump. Past a certain skill level, the deterministic nature of TR's movement makes the whole game exceedingly easy and leaves 100% of the challenge in the hands of puzzles, traps and monsters.

That's why TR2 throws immediate death traps at you right off the bat, and has vastly more combat in just the first few levels than the first game did in throughout its entire length. Adding more combat in a game where combat pretty much sucks isn't a winning strategy.

By the end of TR2, they'd already done everything the existing engine was really capable of. TR3 would have needed a massive revamp for veterans of TR2 to get anything out of at all. It didn't get that revamp, and was just more of the same, but with Lara changing outfit even more frequently; just tits, basicallly. So players turned their noses up at it.

Tomb Raider didn't succeed because of tits, it *failed* because of tits. It failed because it didn't meaningfully expand on the original formula, probably because Eidos were stupid enough to think teenage boys could never get bored of seeing the same pair of polygonal tits, and core were simply not equipped to give the game the kind of work it needed in the short timeframe Eidos gave them.

>>5026448
I don't think that's it. Sure game rentals have been around for a while, but as we got later into the 90s they became more and more common.

I remember a couple of years where I didn't buy any games at all, and just rented everything from Blockbuster that was only a couple of blocks away.

And that effects game sales.

>>5026316
What the fuck, I'm pretty sure legend was the most succesful in the first reboot, while anniversary had lowest sales among all games of the franchise.
Where's this info from?

>>5026448
All new games added something and had slightly-better graphics.

TR3 was definitely harder, and it added crawling and crouching. TR:LR added using a scope. And TR: Chronicles added highwire-walking as well as shiny light-reactive textures like on Lara's catsuit.

Sure they were incremental improvements but it's no different than modern games that all use the same engine. And they would have lost more by NOT putting out a new game every year.

>>5026334
>The combat was shit and the game would be better off without it

Great analysis there. And you wonder why no one is taking you seriously...

>>5026409
Pretty much any financial report by Core, Eidos, Crystal Dynamics (they had to deal with this too, unable to ever overcome Core's worst salers despite technically delivering "better" games)... even Squenix did an extensive and suprisingly unbiased research on it and published it for open use.
Long story short - TR2 was the peak of sales and then it was gradually dropping down. It was still strong brand, don't get me wrong, selling millions of copies in the late 90s was still a massive achievement, but it was blatantly clear TR2 was absolute peak of performance in terms of sales, in great deal thanks to absolutely massive marketing the game had (but again, since it was 90s, nobody really took advertising for games serious).
I'm on phone now, will try to dig out some of those reports once back home.

>>5026470
No, he's right. I'm the anon who brought the bullet-points about Core's tenure and he's just observing on their inability (rather than failure on unwillingness) to upgrade the engine in meaningful way, because they were simply over-worked with making another game, not having time, funds and manpower to expand.

>>5026474
They were still the same engine, man. The reason why TRLE was released with Chronicles? Because by that time they've managed to create a user-friendly interface for it, which in turn happend, because they were working their asses on TR4 so hard, a lot of shit was streamlined in LE's UI

>>5026497
*or unwillingness

>>5026474
>And they would have lost more by NOT putting out a new game every year.
False.
They've lost PRECISELY because they were putting a new game every year.
Bear in mind following: TR1 was in development for total of 27 months and there wasn't really any time limit on it, allowing to work on it in care-free environment, because it was just a side project for bunch of people not tied by "serious" projects. Turns out the game was a stellar success and publisher wanted to have new one, pronto. Due to reasons, part of the team left, but most of it stayed and worked. This time there was a strict time schelude, but those people already had experience with making this game and had a broad idea how to make a new game in the first place. Which produced TR2, the peak of the series in terms of popularity and sales.
But after that, it was only downhill. TR team disbanded itself, with people simply quitting. New game had to be done by bunch of randos this time around AND on very tight schelude, while they were moved from different projects to it. Everyone had their idea how to make the game, but found a workable solution - they've split the game into separate stages that were more or less self-contained and circled over ideas of each sub-group.
And while they didn't even finish, Eidos wants another game already in working.

Add to that the realisation of people still working on TR2 that they literally MUST upgrade the engine for something better, because they are constrained by limits of ad-hoc, semi-improv engine from TR1 in their designs. Then add to that technology creep. And the fact development of new engine takes about a year by itself, while there was literally nobody to make said engine in the first place, since eventually entire company was sitting over new and next TR.
If they took their time as they've planned, we would have TR3 delivered a year later, BUT on new, upgraded engine OR TR4 delivered two years later, BUT on PS2.
>TBC

>>5026515
Would that salvage the series?
Hard to tell. But it would be definitely a very different experience. My favourite assertion of the whole mess is looking on Core's Freerunning Engine. The stuff they've developed for 10th Year Anniversary game, that eventually was shot dead and passed to Crystal Dynamics. That engine was a really, really neat design of late PS2 era and it was clear people behind it, when not being busy churming up another TR and having time to breath and think, could deliver.
Only never had that luxury to do so while working on the series.

>>5026516
Also, remeber about AoD. AoD officially was created to FINALLY move to PS2 and upgrade things, but due to bunch of reasons (like Eidos being 100% dependant on TR income) first Core had to waste time on Chronicles and then the final schelude of AoD was moved few times around, always leading to less and less time for delivery. Ultimately the game hit stores in June '03, despite original plan was to have it traditionally in November. Those few months were crucial, because rather than finishing the game by late August/early September, with all the bug-fixing and control adjustments and simple playtests, then send it for pressing and delivery to shops, the game was quite literally still in development when the courier from pressing company came to get the files.
All because Eidos had to close a tax year and pretend to shareholders they are still solvent, so they've changed the date for AoD and cut the development in April '03, essentially robbing the game out of final 4-5 months of polishing. Which naturally lead to AoD being dumpster fire material, but Eidos couldn't care less, because hey, monies!

>>5026476
I'm not going to outline something obvious. But please, illuminate us on the marvelous aspects of TR combat. Level hard, ironman : try to use more than a couple sentences,without teenage angst and reaction images.

>>5026474
> it added crawling and crouching
oh wow "Hey Johnny, did you hear that? They added crawling in the newest TR. Also, it takes 2 minutes to load your save on console after each death. ""nah thx , I'm cool with [action-game]"

>And they would have lost more by NOT putting out a new game every year.
Yeah, I agree.

>Sure they were incremental improvements but it's no different than modern games that all use the same engine.
Well, people want to play the same thing, I guess. MMORPG took it to the grand level of repeating one given activity over and over.

All in all, I blame the public. If less people bought TR2,[I wanted to say why it didn't improve in engine, but the anon >>5026448
said it more or less] then we wouldn't have series going into stale state, lowered sales after TR2, that resulted in that crappy action/adventure game series until 2013 Square came and they made somewhat less crappy action/combat game with no traces of orignal game left in. Sad.

If people wouldn't buy everythign the publisher is churning out, we would have less, better TRs.

>>5026552

>>5026561
He's not baiting shit, he's completely right. Eidos milked TR too hard and too fast to be sustainable. They didn't give Core the appropriate time for TR2, and TR3 is something that should have been made for the PS2 as Core wanted to.

Eidos chose short term profit over long term profit, and it basically killed the franchise for straight decade.

>>5026612
It gets better than that.
Eidos fucked LGS with very short term profit in mind, quite literally orchiestrating the whole deal to not pay them a single cent made on Thief 2.
Knowing short term thinking is ultimately bad, because it kills dev company and there are no more games... they did that to their fucking flagship, Tomb Raider, the series they've depended financially upon. Because hey, profit!
AND after doing that, spending few years virtually bouncing checks (because they've murdered their goose laying golden eggs, fully aware what the fuck they are doing) and finding new dev to pick up Tomb Raider...
... they've started the whole shitty cycle once again, with game delivered on yearly basis, quality be damned and virtually grinding Crystal Dynamics to the ground.

It took them to pull this fucking shit three times, twice for the same franchise and eventuall all-out bankrupcy and buyout for pocket change to "wise up". Read - not wising up at all, because they've got simply removed from the industry and Squenix kicked out all the "old guard" Eidos executives when they took over.
Not that Squenix are any smarter, but when company like them has to teach you how to handle your property, you fucked up hard.

>>5026612
>>5026658
I get what you're saying.
Still, it's not Eidos fault for undertaking such a buisness model.

Choose one:
A: already written game engine, small group of developers you can abuse and use for 4 addditional games, that have low cost compared to some AAA console titles of that time, that made less(more cinematics, better engines, more script, more music and sound effects, more AI, more everything. you have to pay for that)
B:Let the developers drag on with experiments, less games, risky return. After all, this was a unique genre. They had almost nothing to base of, it's not like it was another FPS or JRPG or fighting game. You can break your ass easily. And, who knew how long people were going to love the formula of two tiles jumps, mayb there would be sometihng else behind the corner(And there kinda was, people turned to slasher games or online games, especially chads that kinda bandwagonned for the tits until now). Even if they made the "realistic physics indiana jones platformer with cool character" perfect, like they wanted to, who knows what would happen.

Bottom line:
blame the people and their tastes.

>>5026552
I wouldn't say it's combat is perfect, but also combat isn't the focus of the game so it doesn't bother me it's not amazing. It is serviceable though and does it's job which is to add some short bursts of action and tension to break up the flow of an otherwise slow and methodical game.

And I'm sorry if it came off harsh but simply saying it's shit and should have been left out while at the same time attempting to claim you're talking about the game in an interesting and insightful manner is kinda funny.

>>5026658
>Not that Squenix are any smarter
Well, they got better sales. And perhaps tehy will even mantain the trend.
All shit can be said about this iteration, but it's deffinetely better than the 6/7th generation. It plays like spyro with murdering people, but hey, still had fun. With moneybags replaced by interface when you buy new moves like stomping crates.

>>5018406
the first one was something very new and very fun

this was an upgrade on everything

>>5026761
>I wouldn't say it's combat is perfect, but also combat isn't the focus of the game so it doesn't bother me it's not amazing. It is serviceable though and does it's job which is to add some short bursts of action and tension to break up the flow of an otherwise slow and methodical game.
Good point, but it's still bad combat. Having something superficial to do just to detract yourself from the main gameplay is not my cup of tea. In my opinion it should be either repaired in some kind of way, or make Lara more pacifist, yet still in many man-man-monster situations, that ocasionally raise tension. Kind of like in Abe's Odysee.
>And I'm sorry if it came off harsh but simply saying it's shit and should have been left out while at the same time attempting to claim you're talking about the game in an interesting and insightful manner is kinda funny.
I don't have to elaborate on everything I say, and to write wikipedia article on every point. This is what discussion is for, to complement each other opinions. If somebody is not agreeing with something, he can come up with his arguments.
>this guy did something funny, we should therefore disregard all of his points, even if he's right
It's comon logical fallacy, used in politic's rhetoric for the masses.

>>5026772
>this was an upgrade on everything
Was it really better?
It had more combat sequences, and more vehicles. Can't say it was an improvement in this regard.

>>5026748
>Still, it's not Eidos fault for undertaking such a buisness model
>Proceeds to describe absolutely retarded business practice as something sound and logical
Are you retarded or FUCKING RETARDED?!
Why the fuck you think Eidos went out of business in lieu of bankrupcy?

>>5026792
Not him and personally, I consider TR2 to be the worst of Core games. Level design is all over the place - some levels are brilliant, other are retarded, a lot of things clearly struggle under the virgin limitations of '97 tech.
It has by far the most stupid excuse plot in the entire series (which is a massive achievement after TR1 and having such gems like Chronicles, Underworld and entire 2nd reboot) and was suddenly so much fighting thrown into it it's just painful. Also, it's clearly a game concieved out of desperation in pretty much every regard, under the logic of "ok, let's make it like the last time, but more of everything!".
Which makes me absolutely unable to grasp how it's the best selling part of not just Core's tenure, but entire fucking franchise. The game was very much "meh". Meanwhile, Core's perfection, Last Revelation, was shit on extensively.

>>5026863
>Why the fuck you think Eidos went out of business in lieu of bankrupcy?
Perhaps the managers do not give a fuck about bankrupcy of the company. This is what short term gains are about - you fuck everybody, get money somewhere safe.

>>5026883
The management stayed unchanged since... '99. They went out of business in '09.
How about much simplier answer that is also the reality: Eidos management was made by complete morons. The only reason they aren't a meme like EA or Ubisoft are is because they've went out of scope in mid 00s and then got fucking killed for their idiotic business practices in late 00s.
They never were good. It was a company that stuck gold just unexpected as Core did. And not just with Tomb Raider. They were selling some of the hottest shit in the late 90s... and managed to kill Every. Single. Fucking. Dev. Working with them, aside handful of examples that managed to remain at least semi-independent. Everyone else just died due to stupid Eidos being stupid.

>>5026890
>The management stayed unchanged since... '99. They went out of business in '09.
Some of them could make enough money from '95 to '99

>>5020546
I like over alot. Its different than the others as you dont actually explore tombs and stuff. It has a more james bond feel to it. Definitely not bad if you like tomb raider.

>>5026897

>>5020903
Thats because zoomers only deal in extremes and absolutes, they are the sith.

>>5026897
If you think anyone was smart enough to pull a scheme about "Let's make a lot of hay and then escape", then tough luck.
They've re-structured entire company between September '95 and May '96 by kicking out everyone from companies taken over by main branch and changing name to Eidos. That was before they had any sort of success with anything. Then just few months later TR came out... and the company didn't even know what to do with it, because they've accquired it without even knowing it's in development, since it was ordered by a sub-contractor of a company they've bough in April '96. It's a random chance the game wasn't booted at that stage.
Either way, back to corporate history - another shuffle of management happend between TR1 and 2 was made and big money started rolling. And then another. And another. And another. Between '96 and '99, the top management was replaced by new investors and their representatives 8 times in total. That means people who were into it didn't want to make money on managing the company or its products, but people who speculated on the shares of Eidos as such. Buy shares, sell them later.
In other words, nobody made a secret fortune, but instead it's a classic tale of top management making profit on the boom and using momentum. So there was literally no strategy at all. Not in terms of malice on the side of management, but simple neglect. Eidos as a company was calling shots, only there was no other decision than extremely short-term profit, because it was one step away from speculation bubble.
If you consider any of this to be a good business model, you must be brain-dead. It's literally Everything Wrong With Stock-Based Corporations: 101.

>>5025084
>can't run in sharp angles like a real person would


Real people cant run at sharp angles. Too much momentum, thats why all race tracks are oval instead of square. You cant take a sharp angled turn too fast without crashing. Inertia, momentum, gravity, velocity, viscocity, etc...


Youre a real dumb one!

>>5026916
REDDIT NORMALFAG REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>5026230
What... All im saying is i didnt like the infinite ammo for dual pistols. It made the combat to simple. If you ran out of bullets with other guns than just dual pistol for a while while flipping around. It would have been nice to have a sword/knife or some kind of weapon tjat doesnt rely on ammo, but that wpuld have involved comepletely different combat. The ifinite dual pistols are a quick fix to a shitty problem. Luckily the main point of the game is not combat, so that can be overlooked a bit.

>>5025180
What IS the time stamp being referred to here? I can see in the Youtube URL, the time stamp should be 589 seconds into the video i.e. 11 seconds shy of the 10-minute mark (i.e. the 600 second mark, because duh) but when I look at that point in the video, I don't see any shotgun shells of any kind.

>>5025180
Oh, never mind. I just figured it out. It's when Lara is picking up the Automatic Pistol ammo. She runs, jumps over some spikes and slides down a ramp which takes her through an opening into a room where spike-walls immediately start moving in on her.

Overall, the complaint here is solid. In order to get the ammo, you do have to move in a very precise, unintuitive manner that only makes sense because you're playing a videogame and "that's just how games are/how the game is". It's a very valid complaint. No matter how much people bash the poster for needing to gitgud, the fact remains that nobody can defend the movement necessitated in that scenario as natural.

>>5026975
You have to wait for her to fall down the hole, to the corridor with the spikes coming from the walls. It's a bit further than the timemark.

>>5026934
>Real people cant run at sharp angles.
Oh man.
>Too much momentum, thats why all race tracks are oval instead of square.
It is done for optimazation of sports.
> You cant take a sharp angled turn too fast without crashing. Inertia, momentum, gravity, velocity, viscocity, etc...
Except you can... you just don't run at top speed.

Here, I used google for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrthk_NTmjE

Bottom line: hold your horses with making accusations and entering le 'funny' reaction image folder.

>>5026783
>. Having something superficial to do just to detract yourself from the main gameplay is not my cup of tea

That's fair, I wouldn't call it superficial though and I do consider it a key part of the overall game and would be lacking without it. So though it's not perfect or the best part of the game I still think it works well, but we don't have to agree.

And it's not that you said something funny, It's that you said something stupid and reductive while still trying to insist you should be taken just as seriously. That's the part that's funny to me.

>>5027001
>Being this dense
>Unironically
And you never run in your entire miserable life, you stupid, FAT sack of shit.

>>5027191
Please stop posting in this thread. Take your meds.

>>5027056
>That's fair, I wouldn't call it superficial though and I do consider it a key part of the overall game and would be lacking without it.

Yes, my bad. Simply kicking it out wouldn't do. I didn't give it much consideration.

>It's that you said something stupid and reductive while still trying to insist you should be taken just as seriously
Like I said previously: if you come to rash decision and decide not to take somebody seriously just because he made a mistake somewhere else, does not really put you in good light.

>>5027221
>Like I said previously: if you come to rash decision and decide not to take somebody seriously just because he made a mistake somewhere else, does not really put you in good light.

Granted, and you do seem much more reasonable upon further talking so I apologize. I look at the combat similar to Mario, which also has mostly simple enemies you hop on as you make your way along. Sure hammer bros can be a pain but it's not like you're dealing with waves of medusa heads or fleamen

But even though it's not the best part or the focus, the games would be much worse off if it was taken out. Tomb Raider is similar. The combat isn't amazing, but it adds an important ingredient to the whole pie thar helps make it work. Would it be better if the combat was incredible? Of course, but as is it was quite an amazing game in It's time and it's mostly an exploration puzzle game so weak combat is easy to overlook.

I'll say this though, there were many people back then who also wanted a more action oriented game and I think giving into that pressure in subsequent games was a mistake. At least for myself, I loved the first one but then found most of the others disappointing. They leaned too hard on the combat which was never good enough to carry it, so action hopefuls were disappointed and fans of the original felt left out as well.

I hate to say it because I despise the games, but Uncharted is the Tomb Raider game that most people always wanted.

How is the Saturn version of Tomb Raider?

>>5027284
>Granted, and you do seem much more reasonable upon further talking so I apologize. I look at the combat similar to Mario, which also has mostly simple enemies you hop on as you make your way along. Sure hammer bros can be a pain but it's not like you're dealing with waves of medusa heads or fleamen

But even though it's not the best part or the focus, the games would be much worse off if it was taken out. Tomb Raider is similar. The combat isn't amazing, but it adds an important ingredient to the whole pie thar helps make it work. Would it be better if the combat was incredible? Of course, but as is it was quite an amazing game in It's time and it's mostly an exploration puzzle game so weak combat is easy to overlook.

I know what you try to convey, but I think that Mario is a bad example here. The enemies really do make part of the momentum and mechanics in this game. You have to manage both environment and enemies at the same time. i.e slow down mario to kill some enemy, bounce of it to get something, make the pacing right to not bounce into upper wall, balancing yourself to not fall of the tiny platform once you kill the enemy. It's interlaced well into platforming. At least, that how it was in the 2D Mario, I haven't played the 3D ones. In TR, you stop the exploration to run in circles/flip here and there and make use of unlimited ammo to take down confused meele atackers. Or to just take them out using higher ground. The gameplay just stops, and you do it automatically for the most part. It is really limited with the engine, and serves as a minor tension builder and a reason to collect health packs and ammo(especially for ranged atackers, because fighting melee enemies do not detract from resources).

>>5027221
>Got repeatively told how wrong he is on different subjects and regard
>NANANANANANA CAN'T HEAR YA!
>YOU ARE ALL OFF YOUR MEDS!
>IT"S ME, THE ONLY SANE MAN!
>NANANANANANANA!

>>5027354
Probably a shitty abortion like most 3d ports on it.

>>5027623
>Got repeatively told how wrong he is on different subjects and regard
Examples?
Quite the contrary, we agreed there were problems with the overall rushed development process, that Eidos made poor decisions, that the controls weren't perfect, combat was far from perfect. All proven by data, facts, videos, charts.

Bottom line from the thread:
Sales were droping. People decided that it wasn't a perfect series. Marketing tried to help with sexual appeal starting from TR2. Developers didn't have time to introduce new engine and improvements that they wanted to, team was was replaced, development rushed. And people voted with their wallets.

All of the counter arguments could be sumarized by:
>It worked for me! I had great fun!
>The sales charts are wrong, where did you get them from ?!
>The company did not use sex as marketing, (except they did, after TR1)
>You are stupid!
>You are bad at the game[insert obligatory cockiness, how he, the master of gaining skills, solved puzzles that required 200IQ, learned the game and had no problems] (Which was completely missing the point, I did not say the game is hard.)
>You want to have Mario! Or modern game!
>You say the game is shit! (oh, except I didn't, nowhere)
>If it works, why change it!(Well maybe to perfect the formula and not let series die like it did)

All in all, a combination of bad arguments, bad reading comprehension, completely missing the point, be it on purpose or out of stupidity. Nicely dressed in accusations, reaction images, and seething.

>>5028251
You seem to be in short supply, grab some

And now for a game nobody remembers.

>>5030108
I remember this game, one level involved saving a jumper who was going to kill himself because he couldn't get a job as a fireman.

>>5018947
>the tutorial is optional

This is probably the kicker for most. I leapt into TR1 for the first time thinking I was the shit and wondering why half my jumps never worked properly, and wrote it off as the broken '90s gaijin soft. But the tutorial thoroughly demonstrates Lara's abilities and limitations so well that it transforms your game.

I don't know if making the tutorial optional was a mistake, but I do know that it's very easy to play fucking terribly by skipping it.

>>5025180
i think i speak for everyone else in the thread when i say GIT GUD

>>5030108
I remember reading about it, does that count?

>>5030108
I prefer the PS2 sequel.

>>5030108
I think you meant The Unholy War, unironically the best game published by Eidos.

>>5025180
I was recently just thinking about this post and you know what I just remembered? Secrets.

Back in those days, information about videogames had a harder time disseminating. It was mostly controlled as the normal access to the information would've been the magazines. In this kind of social environment then, it was common for game devs to put secrets into the game, knowing that most people would have to play through the level again in order to find them all.

The fact that the secret is placed in such an awkward-to-access manner is most likely no coincidence and is instead a deliberate attempt to incentivise replayability. You'll have no choice but to replay the level however many times necessary until you get the technique right for getting the item.

Conclusion: The fact that you cannot get the item on your first go is no mistake. You are being challenged to gitgud and learn the level and Lara inside-out.

>>5031003
Meanwhile TR1 has a secret in the first level that relies on the fact that Forward + Action jumps slightly higher than a normal jump. No other part of the game uses or references this.

>>5024939
Leotard > tank top, always and 4eva

>>5031003
>Back in those days, information about videogames had a harder time disseminating. It was mostly controlled as the normal access to the information would've been the magazines. In this kind of social environment then, it was common for game devs to put secrets into the game, knowing that most people would have to play through the level again in order to find them all.

Yes, this is well known. The points is, those games were usually 2D, and the controls were dynamic and nice, and made sense. And because those dynamics, those games could have many different variations of levels, despite being in 2D, and despite not introducing many moves. For example megaman for NES. Or Abe's Odysee(for those who don't know, kind of like Prince of Persia in PS1 era, but more complex). Whereas difficulty in Tomb raider comes very often from one trick pony. The whole point of this thread, more or less is that the engine didn't evolve due to company mismanagment. The engine didn't allow for much, really.

>The fact that the secret is placed in such an awkward-to-access manner is most likely no coincidence and is instead a deliberate attempt to incentivise replayability. You'll have no choice but to replay the level however many times necessary until you get the technique right for getting the item.
Yes, the levels were made perfectly around the controls and engine. I didn't criticize the level design, rather the core and its future.

>>5031013
>Meanwhile TR1 has a secret in the first level that relies on the fact that Forward + Action jumps slightly higher than a normal jump. No other part of the game uses or references this.
Exactly. Because there is not much once you learn the trick. The game designers knew this. They tried to throw flashy things like more combat or vehicles or new outfits, but it didn't work in the long run, as we seen.
Paced jumps, slow turning, walking on spikes, predictable combat,. Once you learn that, you are done with the TR series made on PS1.

>>5031110
>Paced jumps, slow turning, walking on spikes, predictable combat,. Once you learn that, you are done with the TR series made on PS1.

You might have been done, but I enjoyed the series. There weren't many exploration based puzzle games and in spite of rough combat I was very happy the games existed.

>>5031186
>You might have been done, but I enjoyed the series. There weren't many exploration based puzzle games and in spite of rough combat I was very happy the games existed.
I've been happy too, but less happy they stopped existing(the games that came forth were different genre - exploration action games).

>>5031110
>If I had such experience with the game, then everyone absolutely had to be just like me
Fortunately, not all of us have shit taste

>>5026348
This is so sad, amazing example of what not to do when you have a succesful game franchise in your hands, it feels like almost everything that could go wrong happened here.

>>5027001
>Too much momentum, thats why all race tracks are oval instead of square.
>It is done for optimazation of sports.
>Except you can... you just don't run at top speed.
Are you actually retarded?

>>5032267
>He thinks turning on point is natural
>He thinks momentum won't fuck you if you try
>He thinks people naturally taking curved, rather than sharp turns is coincidence
I won't ask if you run, since you clearly don't, but do you at least fucking walk? Or drive?

>>5032189
You mean people that were entartained by climbing animations,vehicles rails, redundant combat, and puzzle blocks for 5 year olds? Most of us were bored of it by TR3, thats why its RIP in the benis.

>>5032267
>>5032338
It's not like shes running very fast to begin with. It's more like jogging. Ever had to take a sharp turn not to step in some shit or something? Anyway, I explained it poorly, but It was shown more or less in the video.

>>5032414
>Le (You) maymay
>From a guy that does nothing but intentionally is contrarian for the whole duration of the thread
wew lad

>>5032423
So you don't run nor jog, too?
And that video shows nothing of your claim, which different people told you over past week. How about you simply stop being retarded? Or go pic related?