/vr/ - Retro Games

>>4997395
goldeneye baby

DOOM, Build games, Quake even though they managed to fuck up the shotgun

excluding the fucking marines on hard mode

Isn't there some /k/ autist who makes incredibly detailed videos about gunplay?

>>4997402
I heard that it was meant to amplify the hardcore feel of the game. like "remeber that strongest weapon in doom? it means shit here"

>>4997395
Shadow Warrior

>>4997445
This is the most homoerotical game artwork ever.

>>4997395
the real question here is, WHAT makes the good gunplay?

>creative and practical weapons that looks, works and sounds good
>every shot feels empactful and rewards pleasure to player
>enemies react dynamic to each weapons
>effects(cam shaking, explosion etc) are satisfying and goes well with overall visual
>multiple dangers and multiple ways to solve it
>"If the gun you use is strong, then theirs too"

I would say duke, blood and doom

>>4997395
Realms of the Haunting has god-tier controls and gunplay.

>>4997504
>every shot feels empactful and rewards pleasure to player
Love that even the first pistol you start with in Duke sounds fucking awesome
>Doom pistol sounds like shit though

DooM Incarnate mod with BD Monsters Only
never had more satisfaction in shooting and killing

>>4997442
>super nailgun
Idk man the it was pretty fuckin shit when I did my playthrough last month. I had to keep switching to the regular nailgun because I kept wasting ammo using the super version. It was shit.

>>4997436
>marines on hard mode
Only a problem on Black Mesa. On the original? Nah

>>4997395
Did you come from the Half-Life thread? Take it easy.

>>4997395
>gunplay
Did you mean "gameplay"?

>>4997476
That just looks like some Brom or Vallejo kind of painting.
The most homoerotic cover probably goes to some Cho Aniki game.

>>4997504
I'd say this.

>>4997591
The Duke 3D pistol is actually pretty practical, which not all FPS starting pistols are.
The pistol in Doom, for instance, you will never use it if you can help it, it's just really wimpy, you'll save the ammo for finding a chaingun, 10 times out of 10. It exists purely to be the weakest weapon.

Meanwhile, the pistol in Duke 3D not only has its own ammo pool (meaning you're never wasting ammo for the Ripper Chaingun Cannon by using it), it's actually got some speed, you can let loose 12 rounds in a very rapid succession, which counts for something. Combine it with Mighty Boot and you can easily stunlock an Octabrain.
The reload is brief, but basically exists to set it apart from your machinegun.

The pistol in Doom exists solely tp make you seek out something better, and while there's much better weapons in Duke 3D, the pistol there is something that you could genuinely fall back on and depend on if you have to.

Black

>>4997813
>The pistol in Doom, for instance, you will never use it if you can help it

t.never played doom

>>4997856
Outside of the rare shootable switch, when do you EVER use it by choice?

>>4997813
>Duke 3D pistol
>Practical
>Automatic reload with no indication of how many shots remain, no manual reload option

>>4998028
you can reload but it dumps your clip (because you have to shoot a wall)

>>4998028
It reloads every 12th shot, easy to keep track of.
For that matter, the reload is fucking fast, you can easily squeeze in some kicking in between that, if you aren't already kicking.

>>4998028
Manual reloading wasn't a standard in 1996.

>>4998123
It wasn't really all that necessary either, because the magazines aren't that long, and Duke swaps them in a second.

>>4997753
Im not angry but Ive heard this chant for such many times before that. Also I wanted to make /vr/ gunplay thread in general

>>4997640
Just don't hold down the mouse when using the Super? It's objectively better than using the regular nailgun. In fact, the nailgun is the only weapon in Q1 and the expansions that is objectively worse than it's sister weapon. Even the regular shotgun has situational use over the DB shotty because of it's tighter spread.

>>4997640
I often prefer normal ones over super ones too, due to their lower bullet spread and less ammo consumption. People usually says that Q1’s weapon balance is shit, but I think Its well balanced in kinda weird yet subtle ways.

>>4997892
The Pistol would be great if it were completely accurate and slightly faster. I know it's a desperation weapon but we already have the fists. Even 2016 Doom gave the pistol some utility.

>>4997440
Like that Ahoy guy?

Doom, Quake, Quake II, Quake III, Unreal Gold, Shogo MAD, Disruptor, Turok, Turok 2

>>4998261
The pistol is accurate, as long as you don't hold down fire.
The chaingun is just better in every single way, though.

>>4997727
i was referring to how their health is kinda unrealistic at times (i.e. falling to their knees from a direct fucking rocket)

>>4998445
>point-blank double shotgun shot
>sfx is huge KABLAM
>only result is the same dumb little flinch animation

it's some unsatisfying shit.

>>4998521
there's a heavily wip mod called Hard-Life which makes the game way more difficult without just making everything a bullet sponge.
>zombies run and attack stupid fast
>headcrabs hop rapidly in a zigzag and deal like 30 damage
>vorts are kinda like archviles now MonkaS
>marines aren't retarded anymore

in general the kill time is lowered for both enemies and the player, so a single shotgun blast to the head kills just about everything you'd expect it to be able to kill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JNpuPLB8co

>>4998691
Might be cool. I'll keep an eye out for it.

>>4997856
Ha, what? Everyone in the doom community agrees the chaingun completely replaces the pistol. It sucks.

>>4997813
It's Julie Bell, so it makes sense.

>>4998728
Whaaat? The pistol is excellent for making the 2 key functional!

>>4998732
She was trained by Vallejo, wasn't she?
I mean in painting, I know she was (still is?) buff as fuck.

>>4998735
Can't argue that.

>>4997395
Brutal Doom

>>4997395
Project Reality has some cool feeling guns
Sound design is also great

>>4997504
duke has shit combat design

>>4998760
If you suck, lmao.

>>4998762
>main enemies are hitscan
>two of the weapons need an extra action to be performed to kill the enemy
>exploding flying tank drones
>hitscan miniboss boss enemies
>incredibly unsatisfying rocket launchers
>weak and innacurate pistol
>chaingun runs out of ammo super fast
>shotgun requires two or many more pumps to kill the grunt type enemies
yeah nah, duke may be redeemed by literally everything else being great but the combat is weak

>>4998752
Brutal Doom is unironically the best gunplay experience possible

>>4997436
HL1 on hard mode is one of the best fps experiences. It turns the game into a shooting puzzle game. Like a 15 hour ultra violent version of Portal.

>>4998796
I always felt that HL and Quake feel like you're shooting at bricks when shooting enemies. Well at least HL makes up with dope sounds and blood decals

Soldiers of Fortune, Fear and Killing Floor

>>4998785
>main enemies are hitscan
Adapt to them, then, dumbass. There is *LITERALLY* nothing wrong with hitscan enemies.

>two of the weapons need an extra action to be performed to kill the enemy
One of them on the strength of being able to basically bypass the healthpoints of some of the stronger monsters in the game.
Anything you can shrink, you can crush under your boot like a cigar butt, even a Fat Commander. Hell, even a Mini Battlelord if you toggle off auto-aim and know where to hit him.
The Shrinker is immensely powerful for this.
The Freezer I'll admit is a bit finicky, but it has the advantage of projectiles deflecting, meaning you can saturate a target area with projectiles.

>exploding flying tank drones
I'll give you that these are pretty annoying in some levels, but they make very distinct sounds and if you keep your distance while pounding shotgun shells at them, you'll manage.

>hitscan miniboss boss enemies
So?

>incredibly unsatisfying rocket launchers
Really? I found the loud BOOM, big fireball, with debris and enemy bodyparts scattering wildly over the place, to be extremely satisfying.

>weak and innacurate pistol
It's no cannon, but there's nothing wrong with the precision, not sure where you get that idea.

>chaingun runs out of ammo super fast
Not really, don't just uncontrollably hang on the trigger and you'll do fine. For that matter, there's usually plenty of ammo around.

>shotgun requires two or many more pumps
What? No it doesn't.

>>4998801
Soldier of Fortune is fun as fuck, it's only held back by some of the levels being pretty boring. Wish it was properly moddable, it's crying out for more maps.

>>4998785
Duke's hitscan (and Wolf3D's for that matter) are actually coded so that they can actually be dodged, which legitimately gives them a strong point over Doom. Especially if you've played wads with one too many bullshit chaingunner traps.

>>4997541
this. very cool.

>>4998815
don't even give him the time of day anon - anybody who actually played Duke for longer than 10 minutes knows that the pistol has built in auto-aim and just fucking murders liztroops and the security turrets. it's by no means a bad weapon at all.

>>4998785
>he fell for that ”hitscans are undodgable” meme
You can actually dodge bullets by running/ducking and it adds so much into build engine fps’s combat.

>>4997395
>name is a play on a band that the developers like; no deeper meaning
>female protag
>muh retro

Enjoy your cancer, pleb

i think it honestly depends on what you want in a shooter? do you wanna feel like an 80s action hero or do you want something more grounded & realistic.

>>4997402
>Quake
quake's weapons always feel underpowered to me.

>>4999595
>You can actually dodge bullets by running/ducking
you can pretty much say this for pretty much every shooter with hitscanning not just build engine games.

i feel like the people who complain about hitscan are people who think "cover is for pussies" and run in like they're rambo only to get killed 5 minutes later wondering why they died.

>>4999604
It was random pic. Glad to know how to trigger some autist

>>4998815
There's nothing wrong with hitscan enemies as long as they are well designed
Having to backtrack, cheese walls and stuff like that doesn't imply skill. Most enemies in Duke simply hit you right away and don't give you a chance to dodge projectiles while charging forth. It's CoD mechanics on an oldschool shooter.
Also, if you don't see something wrong with hitscan minibosses then I am so sorry for your condition, anon

>>4999604
>not wanting a female protag
imagine being this gay

>>4999614
The shotguns feel weak in Quake, but the Super Nailgun and Rocketlauncher make me feel like a god when I tear shit up with them.

>>4999783
>Having to backtrack, cheese walls and stuff like that doesn't imply skill
Elaborate on this.

>Most enemies in Duke simply hit you right away and don't give you a chance to dodge projectiles while charging forth
You're not fucking supposed to, maintain your distance, use cover. Why the fuck would you charge straight towards a shotgun or machinegun?

>Also, if you don't see something wrong with hitscan minibosses then I am so sorry for your condition, anon
Sounds to me like you need to Git Gud.

>>4999783
>Most enemies in Duke simply hit you right away and don't give you a chance to dodge projectiles while charging forth. It's CoD mechanics on an oldschool shooter.
you know what's funny? even CoD kiddies know that you don't just run into enemy fire.

git gud.

>>4998752
/thread

Max Payne 1

>>4999604
>>name is a play on a band that the developers like; no deeper meaning
Kind of like that horrible game Powerslave
I mean, the name doesn't have deep meaning? What the FUCK

>>5001284
What kind of a name is "Duke Nukem", while we're at it? Fucking normies. I demand depth to my game names.

>>5001336

>>4997440
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QqXrW1WpZA
That guy? Inb4 not retro - he has some good retro stuff as well.

>>5001413
>Blac/k/
Didn't that game have an M4 with a forward assist on both sides of the gun?

>>5001445
Yes, for maximum forward assistanse. The video covers it, as well as numerous other issues.

>>5001451
I guess that'll really let you make sure the bolt is in battery.

>>4997791
gumbleigh :DDD

>>4997402
>Quake even though they managed to fuck up the shotgun
agreed so fucking much. pretty much everything in quake is a downgrade from doom except for the q1 engine.
>>4997442
sounds like some shit id would do. they did pretty much the same thing with Doom 2's level design, though the SSG and new monsters were excellent

>>4998752
without a doubt. wish everyone didn't shit on it so hard.

>>5002952
No fucking way would anyone sane pick a DOOM RL over a Quake RL.

>>4998691
>patreon for romhack-tier mod

>>5001413
Yeah that's the one. Thanks anon.

>>5002963
Brazilian Robbie Rotten can e-beg for his mediocre, overproduced, scope-creeped mess, so I can see why others would imitate him.

>>5002952
I think it's because Quake was just approached very differently.
Like in Doom, the shotguns are mid/high tier weapons, but in Quake, they're much more low tier, and part of this is because of monsters.

Like in Doom, there's much more monsters at a time, and if you pound a monster with the SSG, and he only needed 10 pellets to die, the other 10 pellets don't get absorbed by his body, they ignore him as he dies and stops having a normal hitbox, and then the hitscan then registers the rest of them at whatever else is behind him, be that a wall or even another monster, meaning the shotguns in Doom has excellent utility for hitting multiple monsters at once.
With some practice and speed, you can easily get better value out of your ammo on average, by accounting for this.

In Quake, due to new and demanding graphics, there's fewer monsters at a time (and usually fewer overall), to compensate, and to make for a new and exciting kind of challenge, most of them are made sturdier and more dangerous.
Now, I haven't touched Quake in years, and I'm unsure, but I think the shotguns in Quake does NOT exhibit the generous behavior of Doom, and that a monster will absorb all the pellets of a shell (maintaining their hitbox for longer), and not pass them on behind him, making the shotgun far less potent for crowds.
If I'm wrong on this point, please correct me, but this is the conclusion I'm reaching with my memories.

I also recall explosions didn't hurt as much in Quake, letting you be more reckless with them, even employing unforseen tactics such as rocketjumping.
In Doom, if you're too close with a rocket, that can easily shave about 50% of your health, worse if you're really close and without armor.

I genuinely enjoyed the shooting in System Shock 1 and I can't explain why.

>>4997401
I like the variety of guns in Goldeneye but it loses points for reusing the same reload animation and sound effect. Everything you do with a gun should make it tactile and satisfying: Picking it up, taking it out, unloading/reloading, changing modes, etc.

>>5003794
Goldeneye's arsenal has a lot of very samey stuff, though a lot of it is distributed out over the various missions and you generally have just a small set each level, it's a bit more like just flavoring, a subgun is a subgun but it sounds and looks a bit different, and maybe has slightly different stats, even if reload and handling is almost identical on most of them.

What Goldeneye does do right though, is the pulsing muzzleflashes, and the sound effects.
Firing a salvo with the M16, watching the bullets punch through a door, and the guy behind it, all sounds very satisfying; the ripping full-auto burst, the metal impacts, the fleshy pounding sounds.
Various materials make different sounds when shot, and have different bulletholes, further some materials are easier to penetrate than others, some guns penetrate more than others, all letting you shoot enemies and objects through them.
It's small stuff, but it's still nice attention to detail that gives some of the guns some pleasant weight.

>>4999604
>>name is a play on a band that the developers like; no deeper meaning
>>female protag
The name refers to the protag. Ion Maiden. Ion being an electrically charged particle, maiden being an unmarried woman. It's no less deep than "Duke Nukem"

>>5003854
>>4999604
I think it's also the name of a weapon in the original Bombshell game.

>>5003602
Pushback and in general all the physics involved with the enemies and projectiles.

>>5000050
>git gud
Elaborate on this.

>>5004175
acquire proficiency

>>5002956
>everyone
you mean the 30-40 angry nu males and trannies who post in the doom general?

>>5004185
Don't you have some damage scaling to break, Marquito?

>>4997395
>>4998752
>>4998790
Honestly, D4T does a better job at DOOM's weapons than DOOM itself, and I think they're even better than Brutal Doom's guns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm85kM1K3Hg

The new Shadow Warrior had some good gunplay. Or more like swordplay?

>>5005050
Some of the guns in Shadow Warrior 2013 were kind of ok, some felt kind of weak, but the swordplay was by far the most rewarding.
Shadow Warrior 2 had a lot of new guns, and some which felt very nice and satisfying (the grenade and rocket launchers especially), but in exchange it had EXTREMELY shitty level design ("procgen" recycling the same two or three chunks for each type of map, meaning you see about the same 10 maps for the entire goddamn fucking game), really bad story, and it dumbed down the enemies A LOT.

Like, in SW13, each enemy has a distinct role, the flying enemies, the suicide bombers, the charging bull demons, the necromancers, all of these guys have distinct behavior and require distinct strategies, there's really nothing that is a reskin of another thing to fill space.
In SW2, most of this is stripped down, there's a lot of new enemies, but most are reskins of each other and have very simplistic behaviors.
The charging bull demon is no longer only vulnerable from the back, and doesn't charge, so they basically just use his model for a generic enemy and he requires no special tactics, etc.

So the 'first' one is a pretty decent games with a few shortcomings, and some strengths (if you like Doom 4, you would like this game, if you don't, I would probably not recommend it), and then the second one kind of takes one step forward on some things, but two steps back on a lot of essential things.
If you like Borderlands, you *may* like SW2, but I find Borderlands kind of trite, and it overall feels like it tries to just lazily copy some aspects of Borderlands and call it a day.

I guess because I went blind into Shadow Warrior 2013, with no expectations, and was very pleasantly surprised, that I had too high hopes for its sequel.
Play the original instead, and then the reboot if you think you'd like it.

>>5005198
>>5005050
Try playing SW2013 on the hardest skill.

You'll quickly realize only two weapons matter:the rocket launcher and the sword. On hard skills the game is really bad.

>>4998691
A lot of characters become niggers.
How diverse.

>>4998691
I never liekd how marines firefights.
The AI is cool but the idea of spamming mp5 fire into their face and they tanking it is a bit retarded.

Soldier of fortune has a beautifull gun play.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_aYlOwjHBw

>>5006437
Hard Mode was kind of as challenging as I was comfortable with, I had to focus and be fast to stay alive and to win, it was really hectic at times. The final battle before Zilla had me zip around like crazy, desperately looking for the tiniest windows to heal myself or to attack, trying to first take out the Necromancer assholes (if you don't, they'll keep pulling in more mooks to distract and mess you up as you try to handle the twin bull demons). I enjoyed it, it almost made my dick hard, but I'm fine with it not getting harder than that (the challenge, not my dick), I'm not sure I could handle that.

What I found was that the twin SMGs are kind of necessary to fight the charging bull demons, because you get a short window to dump shots on their backs, so you need as many rounds per second as possible.
The Flamethrower with its basic attack is garbage, but the alt-fire makes a passable 'grenade launcher', so to say.
The Crossbow is actually really nice with the explosive bolts, however it's easier to use on lower difficulties than on Hard Mode.
The Sword is more important than ever, by this point you should be comfortable with doing the wave shot thing, and you'll find that it'll be one of your main weapons. It won't work great on everything (I find it does shit to the bull demons, maybe I didn't do it right), but you can plow through swathes of enemies with the projectile.

The shotgun is really not that great.
The pistol is kind of ok for anti-air, for some reason.
The laser guiding on the rocket launcher is kind of clumsy, I prefer just 'dumbfiring' rockets so I can stay as mobile as possible.

>>5003602
SS1 has the sexiest lean I've seen in a game.
The hacker can pull off and maintain a nearly horizontal lean while also holding a rifle, its insane.

>>4997815
My nigga

>>5006572
It's weird how HL had like 5 or 6 different scientist models but only 1 single security guard.

bad gunplay=
>I have no idea why I don't like this game

I believe gunplay is primarily composed of two key aspects that incorporate many factors. The first and more important aspect is weapon practicality/functionality. Games with great gunplay will have an array of weapons that remain viable throughout the playthrough so that you can use each as a tool for a given circumstance. A characteristic that enhances this aspect is faster weapon switching. The functionality of each weapon is obviously achieved by the effects it has on the enemies (the flinch model in place, the damage modeling, any physics effects, AoE, etc) and environment.

The second aspect relates to the 'feel' of the weapons or the satisfaction of shooting the guns. Some games have satisfying weapons that are fun to shoot while others don't, though this is very subjective. Games achieve satisfying weaponry via animations (both weapon shooting + enemy deaths), gore modeling systems, physics systems (e.g. ragdoll effects), the sound design of the weapons/enemies, environmental effects (e.g. decals and destructible aesthetics). This aspect also is tied to the damage/flinch modeling systems mentioned above as spongier enemies are often considered less satisfying to kill. The more destructive your weapon feels due to the mentioned factors, the more satisfying it will be to shoot.

My favourite FPS's for gunplay are Blood, Quake and Doom/Doom II. Blood is an example of a game with super satisfying gunplay because it incorporates all the factors I've mentioned above. I also love Quake's gunplay. While Quake's guns don't feel very destructive in relation to the second aspect, there's this smoothness to Quake's combat that I just love that's difficult to describe. (Also your shotguns are not your primaries, so if you're using them that way you won't enjoy the game at all.) I haven't experienced an FPS that has made better use of combat in true 3D space since Quake's release and that really blows, especially when you consider that it was the first true 3D FPS.

>>5008852
technically 7 scientists and 3 (6 if you count helmetless variants) security guards if you wanna count expansions

blueshift & decay added rosenberg, wheelchair scientist (i forgot his name) and a gordon model without his HEV suit. it also added a 3 or variations of the barney model to differentiate barney from the rest of the guards (this was also done in opposing force where you don't see any gasmask grunts to differentiate shepard from the rest of the marines)

opposing force added otis a fat security guard and a fat balding security guard with a mustache. both came with helmetless variants.

>>5001284
.PowerSlave is a great game and album

>>4997395

>>5001336
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9fBoDuWJQU

>>5006921
Personally I found that the crossbow was by far the most useful, and the rocket launcher about as useless as the shotgun.
To me it seemed that the rockets were often not worth it over the sword waves.

>>5011030
The rockets can be really good at times, but less ideal at others. I pretty much use them for hordes and the big demons with grappling hooks, because fuck those guys.

The crossbow is unbelievably good once you get the explosive darts (it's like some kind of micro rocket launcher), but I found on hard I would still rely on the sword wave 9 times out of 10.

>>5001336
>>5001284
>call the game after their favorite genre
Did they even try? Fuck those hacks and their shit game.