/vr/ - Retro Games

It doesn't have XPs ergo it is not an RPG

It's got no role playing.

I consider it to be an adventure game. Some of the 3D ones may be action/adventure though. RPG is an incredibly broad genre, but I think by most useful definitions Zelda games fall outside of it, with the possible exception of Zelda II.

>>4927229
For what it's worth, here is Miyamoto's opinion:
>—I noticed you didn’t say ‘RPG’.
>Miyamoto: The Zelda series has never used the word “RPG”. The way I see it, there are some light RPG elements to Zelda—like the fact that your character grows in power as the game progresses—but that’s it. If we expanded on those elements, my sense is that it would be taking the game in the wrong direction.
http://shmuplations.com/miyamotohorii/

>>4927240
Link dosent talk and you have to project a lot of your own imagination to give him a character.

That’s sorta a role playing mechanic

>>4927254
Pretty much this, it has some RPG elements but otherwise it's not an RPG

>>4927239
This is such a useless definition. Genre should be primarily about what a game feels like to play, and this mechanic is far too specific and isllated to really tell you that.

>>4927229
With the exception of Zelda 2, not an RPG. This is a stupid meme thrown around by Jeremy Parish who apparently either doesn't know what he's talking about, or wants to conflate the term RPG to include things that don't include core RPG mechanics like heavy emphasis on parameters in character's performance and growth.

If Zelda is an RPG, then so is Soul Reaver. If Zelda is an RPG, then so is Super Metroid. If Zelda is an RPG, then so is Milky Way Wishes. All of these games feature your avatar becoming better as the story progresses and in that they certainly take a page from actual RPG games, but they are not RPG games.

>>4927240
>>4927260
You're already kicking off a fallacy. Within the realm of video games "RPG" has a very simple and clear definition and it is not whether or not you "play a role" which is blurry at best. Some people can get into character in puzzle games and others don't even invest themselves in Final Fantasy characters.

>>4927253
>>4927254
Zelda games with the exception of Zelda 2 are definitely adventure games. Video game RPGs developed as a genre from games that sought to imitate the mechanics of 70s pencil and paper RPGs e.g. D&D, the core of which is individual stat based combat with XP and gear rewards.

>>4927268
Well considering that you can't define feelings I'd say that's an objectively useless definition.

>>4927281
>Video game RPGs developed as a genre from games that sought to imitate the mechanics of 70s pencil and paper RPGs e.g. D&D, the core of which is individual stat based combat with XP and gear rewards.

Because of this I've always wondered why customization has hardly been a major factor, instead of the designated pre determined characters you usually will take the role of in these games.

>>4927229
>no roleplaying
>no player choice
>no character customization
>no character development
>all improvement is tied to items

It lacks any feature of RPGs that could possibly be used to uniquely define them, so no. It's an action-adventure game.

>>4927296
It's because JRPGs jumped off from WRPGs in the Wizardry/Ultima era when the technical limitations for customization were still pretty intense and then Japan tends to refine rather than expand so those early 80s style basic mechanics continued to be the core of JRPGs with increasingly grand stories set around them.

Meanwhile WRPGs continued to expand mechanically while often suffering somewhat in the story department to accommodate more openness. You should really play Fallout or Daggerfall.

>>4927229
Zelda 2 NES is an RPG. The rest no

>>4927268
I feel what makes an RPG is stats. Hard, numerical stats which grow as you progress. And this has to include multiple types of stats beyond just health, else nitpickers will call literally every game an RPG based off having health alone.

RPG vidya is based in pen and paper.
What are the main features of pen and paper:
>Interactive storytelling
>A set of rules used to govern said interactive storytelling, otherwise it'd be improvisational theater

It wasn't uncommon for people to completely disregard the interactive storytelling part and just play sessions called dungeon crawling.

What makes Zelda an adventure: you play the game the same way everytime. Like a point-n-click adventure, you find items that open new areas allowing you to proceed.

I was going to ellaborate more but fuck it, by the end of the day it matters none.

>>4927297
Not all RPGs need to conform to a set of rules all the time.

>>4927330
You mean like a sports game? Basically every sports game has characters where their abilities are determined by stats and hard numbers.

>>4927345
Sports games are not adventure/story or fantasy based, like D&D

>>4927349
Neither are most old dungeon crawlers that rely on player imagination and are no deeper than “go kill the Badguy”.

It may as well be “go beat the opposing team”.

>>4927345
there are tons of sports rpgs where your character can be trained and has a progression and can advance through a storyline so you're really not being clever by saying this

>>4927229
zelda games are pretty much a genre of their own.

>>4927359
Indeed. Mario Golf for example which even advertises itself on being RPG golf.

>>4927363
No they aren't. They're Action-Adventure.

>>4927229
>>4927268
Why I don't think Zelda is an RPG:

1. Hyrule is always fairy tale world designed solely for the purposes of the adventure and not for its own sake. This setting is more of an adventure setting than an RPG setting. RPGs usually need a world at least somewhat designed for roleplaying.

2. NPC interactions are similarly tailored around the adventure, not the world itself. Ganon is a fairy tale villain with vaguely evil motivations. NPCs just exist to give Link tips or sell items. RPGs usually have more sophisticated NPCs and complex, often open-ended interactions and a sense that they have a reason and purpose in the world without reference to the player.

3. No stats system governing attributes of characters in the world (one stat can be "Level" which increases with experience). No class system either, that defines and restricts what characters in the world can be and do.

4. Has a greater emphasis on puzzles and the nature of those puzzles tends to be more like an adventure game than a Tomb of Horrors style dungeon crawl.

5. Combat places more weight on dexterity and reflexes than tactical decision-making and attributes (despite all being present).

A game can be an RPG without an XP system if: the game has a coherent, realistic world, that the PC can explore and interact with in ways that may or may not have anything specifically related to the adventure AND NPCs in that world feel like real individuals AND the game emphasizes small-party dungeon crawling AND uses tactical turn-based combat system. For whatever reason, at that point most games will add a stat/XP system-- but it's not required.

If you took an RPG (eg Baldur's Gate) and removed the progression system (rescaling enemy stats as necessary, etc.) playing it would feel almost exactly the same. So why would we categorize it as something else? We shouldn't.

>>4927289
>Well considering that you can't define feelings I'd say that's an objectively useless definition.
That's the high-level definition used to guide the details. Elaborated in more detail here: >>4927408

>>4927339
Yeah but that post does a pretty decent job of hitting on the important traits that people think when they see a game described as an RPG.

An RPG can break whatever rules it wants, but the more rules it breaks the less you can call it an RPG. Eventually, you break so many rules the game can't be called an RPG anymore. Categorizations are often blurry and involve some subjectivity, hence the need for some blurry and somewhat subjective terms like "roleplay."

>>4927358
Dungeon crawlers are grandfathered in because most modern RPGs evolved from those old dungeon crawlers which were among the first crude attempts to adapt tabletop RPGs (which themselves evolved from tabletop wargames) to videogames. And furthermore, old dungeon crawlers are themselves a subgenre of RPG and it's relatively uncommon to mix them in with discussion of other RPGs.

Sports games on the other hand evolved from adapting actual sports to videogames. You had action-style sports games and armchair-coach style games. Those began to blend together and eventually progression systems got added. But at no point did sports actually become RPGs by anything remotely close to what the genre means.

>>4927367
>advertises itself
Marketing will try to claim any label they think will help them get the game more sales and doesn't hurt the brand. Doesn't mean that's the definition you should use when actually talking to people about the game.

>>4927408
I like that you put so much thought into it but early RPGs, especially Dragon Quest break your first two points. Point 3 is absolutely right on the button.

4 and 5 though are very interesting though and I have to tend to agree these are pretty good guidelines but also make games like Seiken Densetsu and Ys real fence sitters between your definitoon of adventure games and ARPGs.

Also, the OG Tomb Of Horrors heavily, heavily features puzzles.

>>4927229
No.

/thread

>>4927260
Same is true for Sonic. Is that an RPG now?

>>4927296
Broadly speaking, western rpgs are like open campaigns with a loose DM where there is a general adventure before you but what kind of characters you use and how you go about it is somewhat freeform.

Jrpgs tend to be more like playing through a specific module with a preset adventure and characters.

>>4927339
Genres do.

>>4927297
It has a top-down perspective. That's the real reason people keep thinking it's an RPG. Metroid has almost identical game structure but is side scrolling so no one tries to pin it as an RPG because it's obviously ridiculous.

But Zelda and Dragon Quest look vaguely similar in a screenshot so idiots are easily confused.

The only thing that defines RPG is stat based gameplay, stat based combat, stat based character growth, etc

Zelda is an Action-Adventure games:
action mechanics: twitch based controls
adventure mechanics: exploration of a world, figuring out what to do, where to go, solving puzzles, etc

The confusion comes from two things: people are generally retarded regarding VG genre defining, probably because it works differently from movies (which are defined by themes), most notably video game reviewers have always sucked at genre defining too.

Another thing that doesn't help is that, RPG is a sub-genre of the adventure genre, so yes, there are common points between an Action-Adventure game and an RPG: the adventure part.

A good comparison example would be Final Fantasy Chrystal Chronicles, it's an action-adventure game but with stat based gameplay.
The action is at the same time based on twitch based controls and stats, with character stat growth. So FF:CC is an Action-Adventure-RPG; or in short Action-RPG (because "adventure" is part of "RPG" so saying the two would be redundant), vs Zelda which doesn't have the stats and is solely Action-RPG.


>>4927268
Video game genre defining is defined by gameplay mechanics, not "feelings".

>>4927472
>vs Zelda which doesn't have the stats and is solely Action-RPG.

I mean solely Action-Adventure, I just had to fuck it up at the end

RPGs are based on progression through character development

Adventure games are based on progression through obtaining items

Zelda is an adventure game where you can increase your health.

>>4927472
>Video game genre defining is defined by gameplay mechanics, not "feelings".
Only if you're on spectrum. Mechanics define what the gameplay experience is like and ultimately what genre the game belongs in. The point is the experience and what it feels like, because the interaction between mechanics is often too complex to be articulated in a comprehensive way, especially in an informal discussion such as this.

>>4927229
Hell no.

>>4927505
>The point is the experience and what it feels like, because the interaction between mechanics is often too complex to be articulated in a comprehensive way,

Not him but I would say the opposite. Basing it on feelings is pointless because those are subjective and vary person to person. Mechanics are the only good objective metric to measure genres by.

>>4927447
>early RPGs, especially Dragon Quest break your first two points
Early RPGs were trying to do a lot with a little in terms of technology and resources. They had to pick and choose their focus. Over time, though, fairy tale worlds became less common.

Also, there's some flexibility built into the definition on purpose. A fairy tale world can work if all the other elements are in place.

>>4927524
It's not an either/or proposition. By starting with feeling and experience I'm not suggesting you base it entirely on feelings and subjectivity. But to ignore subjectivity you get hopelessly lost in nitpicking detailed mechanics and forget about why you're even discussing those mechanics in the first place.

>>4927229
>the legend of is zelda and rpg?

>>4927439
There are times to be a typical /vr/ contrarian douche, and times to reign it in. This was a time for the latter because Mario Golf ACTUALLY IS RPG GOLF. Bet you feel stupid.

>>4927553
Except it's not an RPG it's a golf game with goofy Mario elements.

>>4927229
i think its as much of an rpg as say dungeons and dragons is.

its not what we associate with "RPG" as final fantasy is, but...
>you play as a base character
>get a sword and shield
>gather items, upgrade your armor
>dungeon crawl
>fight bosses
>use magic
>seek out and quest with characters
>it has fantasy races and environments
i'd call it an "action rpg-lite" not really the diet cola of RPG, more like the caffeine free cola of RPG

>>4927529
>But to ignore subjectivity you get hopelessly lost in nitpicking detailed mechanics

I disagree completely.

>>4927576
Is this bait?

>3. No stats system governing attributes of characters in the world (one stat can be "Level" which increases with experience). No class system either, that defines and restricts what characters in the world can be and do.

This is the least important aspect that defines an RPG.

>>4927628
It's the best way to define RPG as a videogame genre, since the stats/gear/progression things comes from tabletop RPGs. Any attempt to define RPG as "games in which you roleplay is vague and can easily include games things that most people wouldn't consider RPGs like VNs.
>inb4 RPG literally means role playing game
That only means that "RPG" is a flawed term to describe the videogames usually classified as RPGs.

>>4927628
It's one of the central defining features of the genre.

>>4927601
Disagree all you want, it doesn't matter. You will always be confounded eventually. Consider Beethoven. His music uses all of the same fundamental mechanics as the "high classical" period of Haydn and Mozart: the same structural forms, the same chord progressions, the same polyphony rules-- but found ways to present those details in ways that evoke very different feelings and reactions from the audience.

Even simpler: kids learn that Major key is for happy and Minor key is for sad. And yet if you know what you're doing, you can easily write a mournful song in a Major key and make a Minor key piece sound happy. This is because the Major/Minor Happy/Sad dichotomy is only one part of a complex whole. Slow tempo is also associated with sadness while quick tempos are associated with happiness. But of course quick tempos can also be associated with storms and chaos-- the other details matter too.

JS Bach famously wrote parallel 5ths sometimes in his chorales, because the goal was "voice parts that sound distinct and independent" and he knew how to achieve that better than what the "rules" (that music theoreticians added after the fact) would let him do. You can go analyze Bach's parallel 5ths and explain, mechanically, how he "disguised" each one-off violation, but ultimately the distinction comes down to subjective interpretation: do you hear the voices distinctly or not?

>>4927628
>This is the least important aspect that defines an RPG.
(I'm that anon)
I wouldn't say it's least important. But it's not the sole definition trait as many seem to think. Use of stat systems for defining the traits and capabilities of both PC and NPCs comes from tabletop roleplaying games.

Although, to be fair, there are some obviously "RPG-based" stat systems and some potentially other stat systems that aren't RPG-based (such as the stats in Tecmo Super Bowl or similar sports game)

>>4927526
If it's flexible then it isn't a definition - by the definition of definitive.

Funny how a lot of us define generes so differently. "True RPG" for me has always reflected tabletop RPG's. I roll or distribute my stats/choose a class and/or build, decide how my character is going to conduct itself, and act accordingly in the narrative of the world around me. But thankfully I'm old enough to not care about what someone else calls something unless they're objectively wrong and it's important. Consider Zelda whatever you want.

>>4927229
RPG is a sub-genre of strategy. Is Zelda a strategy game? Is there a significant focus on making decisions? Is there any decision making at all? No. It's not even remotely a RPG, its an action-adventure game.

>>4927714
That's funny, I find discussing pure mechanics is never confusing. It's when people muddle their feelings for a game up in them that conversation breaks down.

>>4927529
>>4927505
Bringing subjectivity in any genre defining makes no sense, genre definining exists to help classify things for everyone, so subjectivity is out of question. For example

person A:
>Night of the Living Dead horrified me
>therefore it's a horror movie

person B:
>Night of the Living Dead didn't horrify me
>therefore it's not a horror movie

Both persons are wrong. Night of the Living Dead is a horror movie because it INTENDS to horrify viewers.

>>4927774
You can't compare with tabletop games because it's a whole different media which genre defining works differently.

>>4927576
Dungeon and Dragon is a theme, not a video game genre. Only for movies themes and genres are linked.
Most of the things you list are themes, the other are mechanics of the adventure VG genre

>>4927841
>Bringing subjectivity in any genre defining makes no sense, genre definining exists to help classify things for everyone, so subjectivity is out of question.

Yes. A thousand times yes. It's the whole point of having genres.

>>4927849
The only part of subjectivity involved is when nitpicking on the corners. For instance, on where is the limit of a particular sub-sub-sub genre, or for hybrid games, etc

For instance, let's imagine that Zelda had a couple more RPG elements other than "heart pieces". Let's say the shield and sword would gain levels after times when used. Then, we could argue whether that is enough to quality Zelda as Action-RPG, or whether we should call it an Action-Adventure game with RPG elements.

>>4927938
Ohh deffinitely, and games that either blend genres or incorporate some elements into another are great. But it's good to have those baselines, so when you say SotN is an action platformer with rpg elements it can be easily broadly understood what that could mean.

>>4927849
>>4927841
"Bringing subjectivity in" does not mean that you have to allow for a full range of arbitrary subjectivity. If most people who play a game say it feels like playing an RPG, but your taxonomy rules it out because it has no XP/Stat system, then your taxonomy is probably wrong.

> Night of the Living Dead is a horror movie because it INTENDS to horrify viewers.
You've simply moved the problem since what's horrifying is still subjective, and added a new problem which is reverse-engineering intent without subjectivity? You can point out that people naturally find corpses disturbing and animated corpses particularly creepy and unnatural. So zombies are a popular trope used in horror films. They're so popular though, that zombie movies have become a whole genre unto themselves and many of not most of them are called "horror" despite not feeling like a horror movie at all either in terms of intent, subjective experience, or any number of other dozens of mechanical details you could analyze.

But the point is that your objective analysis is always going to be in the context of "what makes a movie scary?" and triggering fear emotions is complex and not entirely predictable, despite fear being one of the simplest emotions controlled by most ancient part of the hindbrain. Even reptiles exhibit fear.

>>4927958
It's natural to assume that playing a computer version of an rpg will feel somewhat similar to playing a tabletop version. But the feeling isn't an important marker if what makes it part of the genre. Game mechanics are what are important.

>>4927938
>For instance, let's imagine that Zelda had a couple more RPG elements other than "heart pieces". Let's say the shield and sword would gain levels after times when used. Then, we could argue whether that is enough to quality Zelda as Action-RPG, or whether we should call it an Action-Adventure game with RPG elements.
Yeah and the structure you should use to analyze how those different elements change the game should be based on how they affect the subjective experience of playing the game. And you can look at a reasonable range of subjective experience and not worry so much about the edge cases and people who swear up and down playing Zelda feels the same as playing Tetris.

>>4927968
>But the feeling isn't an important marker if what makes it part of the genre. Game mechanics are what are important.
Mechanics are only important to the extent they change the gameplay experience. If a change in mechanics doesn't affect how the game is experienced, it should not result in a change in genre classification. If it does, your classifications serve no purpose to anyone but yourself.

>>4927981
Yeah and the gameplay experience produced by a specific combination of mechanics is what defines genres.

The fact that your character gets stronger at combat solely by picking up specified items, instead of stat progression, is what makes Zelda an adventure.

This goes back all the way to text adventures, and Adventure on Atari 2600, where you picked up spears to kill enemies.

But, like the other anon said, RPGs are an offshoot of adventure games, so they both share the elements of exploration, puzzles, combat etc.

>>4928023
Rpgs aren't offshoots of adventure games though.

RPGs have "dice rolls"

/thread

>>4927958
>If most people who play a game say it feels like
>>4927975
>should be based on how they affect the subjective experience of playing the game

Are you trolling or have people become so hopelessly self centered that they think a subjective consensus is something that even exists, much less something that can be measured?

>>4928029
Right, they're spinoffs of tabletop wargames.

>>4928092
Well then I guess it's impossible to ask a subjective question and count how many people give a particular answer now.
Don't strain your brain so much, your dumb is showing.

>>4928102
You're only measuring the consensus of the people who answer and they may answer differently the next time you ask the exact same question but by all means, you get to work on your studies of what playing LoZ FEELS like. Jesus Christ.

>>4928095
Kinda
Tabletop rpgs are spinoffs of tabletop war games. Video game rpgs are spinoffs of tabletop rpgs.

this >>4927239 >>4927270

its an adventure game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sglKS-HfZMw&t=21s

>>4927270
I thought that it came from people claiming OoT to be an RPG out of claims that the N64 didn't have any games in the genre

>>4928178
RPG is broad term.

>>4928252
I didn't dispute that. But video game rpgs very clearly yave their roots in p&p role-playing games like D&D and D&D and it's brothers are descendents of tabletop war games.

Zelda only really gets mixed up with them because of it's top down perspective and fantasy setting. It's no more of an rpg than Metroid when you look at the actual game.

>>4928269
Maybe metroid is an rpg too?

>>4928283
lol

>>4928269
Both Zelda and Metroid are dungeon crawlers though, so I think that's where the confusion lies. When you have a bunch of games that are clearly inspired by rpgs and rpg clichés , but change up the gameplay enough that they're mechanically dissimilar, it's not hard to see where the idea of them being rpgs came from.

>>4928110
So now you're just grasping at straws saying any and all critical consensus is invalid because respondents might be lying. How deliciously ironic that you think that anyone thinking that there's a subjective consensus is self-centred when your counter argument is one of the most navel gazing, solipsistic opinions I've ever seen.
Why even have a conversation with someone, they might be lying, right?

>>4928309
10/10

>>4928323
I'm saying that the basic concept of categorizing games based on how they make people feel, with no objective examination of WHY is fundamentally fucking retarded

>>4928407
Babs is right on.

>>4927229
No, and it's not supposed to be.

Zelda has RPG elements, but it also goes through a LOT of effort to downplay those elements so the rest of the game can feel faster paced.

Fighting enemies in an RPG will usually involve a lot of repetitive encounters and quantifiable displays of how strong your attacks and the enemy attacks are, and defeating the monsters will stop the game for a moment to show how much your character grows from the fight and how your stats improve.
This makes it feel most satisfying when a levelup, or a new spell or a hidden weapon suddenly has you dealing a shit ton more damage, or playing through enemies that used to take a while to kill.

With zelda you get a similar feeling when you finally get the hookshot, or the ladder, which focus more on opening up new paths instead of making enemies insanely easier.

3D dot Game hero would be a good example of what Zelda would be like as an RPG. lots of swords you can grind gold for to powerup and make earlier enemies satisfyingly easier to beat. I haven't played it in a long time, and it's not retro, so I won't go further into detail.

>>4927229
No. I like retro Zelda, so it can't be an RPG.

Adventure game. Next

>>4928470
>With zelda you get a similar feeling when you finally get the hookshot, or the ladder, which focus more on opening up new paths instead of making enemies insanely easier.
This. It keeps the focus on exploration rather than grinding to become stronger.

>>4927229
No.

>>4928092
>Are you trolling or have people become so hopelessly self centered that they think a subjective consensus is something that even exists, much less something that can be measured?
That it can't be measured is relevant to the point. There's a certain degree of intuition that you sometimes have to trust because natural human pattern recognition usually outperforms scientific observation in the short term.

>>4928004
What happens when similar experiences are the result of substantially different mechanics?

>>4928407
>>4928417
Great point Babs the problem is no one is fucking making that point. The point is that how games make people feel is the only starting point worth considering, the objective examination of WHY follows from that subjective experience.

>is zelda an rpg
>an rpg
>not "a rpg"

Golly.

>>4928802
>a ar pee gee

>>4928749
>What happens when similar experiences are the result of substantially different mechanics?

Care to give an example? I don't see anything "happening" though.

>>4928802
You still use "an" if it proceeds a vowel sound, "r" starts with a vowel sound, you stupid ass!

>>4928752
>The point is that how games make people feel is the only starting point worth considering

I'm not Babs but couldn't disagree with this more strongly.

>>4928752
Okay then - I know this is going to be hard for you but give an objective, quantifiable reason (or one that you FEEL more people will give) as to why a game FEELS like an rpg better than it having XPs and XP related mechanics, attributes etc

>>4928918
He's just one of those autistic faggots that reads acronyms out in full every time. He sees "an RPG" and reads it as "an Role Playing Game" instead of "an Ar Pee Gee."

>>4927363
I agree.

>>4927369
Most action-adventure games don't have the kind of equipment progression and real-time world interaction Zelda has. Almost nothing has even attempted this kind of stuff to the same degree in a top-down or 3D environment.

>>4927408
>RPGs usually have more sophisticated NPCs and complex, often open-ended interactions and a sense that they have a reason and purpose in the world without reference to the player.
>AND NPCs in that world feel like real individuals

No. WW, BotW and MM especially have more sophisticated NPC interaction than the majority of RPGs and do exactly what you say.

>>4927958
> If most people who play a game say it feels like playing an RPG, but your taxonomy rules it out because it has no XP/Stat system, then your taxonomy is probably wrong.

If "it feels like a RPG" but it has no stats, then it's an adventure game.
That or the person's "feelings" are very subjective to his experience. For instance, imagine the guy who says that has only played JRPGs, then he reads a visual novel with a jRPG-like story, he could say "this feels like a RPG". That would due to his narrow vision or RPG and to the story, but, unlike in movies, we don't use the story to define VG genres, and i'll explain why below.

>>4927958
I think your problem isn't that you want definitions to use subjectivity, but that you have a hard time drawing the line between subjectivity and objectivity. If we listen to you objectivity doesn't exists.

You say I moved the goalpost by I didn't, in my example I could say "the movies intends to horrify people, it's a horror movie, objectively you can look at the definition of horror in the dictionary and find those intentions in the movie".
Yes, it's true that horror is subjective, and that horror evolves and stops being horror the second you get used to it. Movie makers know that too. If their horror movie fails to horrify a majority of people, then it's still a horror movie, just a bad one; hence why I used the word "intend to horrify", so we don't have to base it on feels for the definition.

>>4928749
>What happens when similar experiences are the result of substantially different mechanics?

The only way this can happen is if two games or a different genre, with different mechanics, like a RPG and an action game, have a very similar story with similar themes.

[cont]
In movies we do use themes to define genres, but video games have more to them then that, so using themes wouldn't be precise enough, not to mention games which are pure gameplay and literaly have no theme, so we don't care about the story or theme (except for one exception), and use gameplay mechanics.

Yes, if an action game and a RPG both have a similar love story, the experience will be the same in that regards but they won't be in the same genre, that is the limit of VG genre defining, but I just explained why.

Imagine if instead we'd classify all games with love stories into "Romance", with no regards to gameplay mechanics, that wouldn't help to tell how the game plays like, which is the whole point of the classification.

We don't say "Action/Romance" or "RPG/Romance" either because imagine how complicated it gets, which again makes the whole point moot, genre defining is that so we can simply and quickly understand what the product is like.

The only exception to this is "survival horror" because it became such a booming and preciser sub-sub-sub genre that it called for a genre name of its own, and the theme is part of that in this case.

>>4928029
Yes, they are. When we say that stats are the only thing that defines RPG, we mean, the only thing that defines it in regards to pure adventure games.

The only time a game can be called "RPG" and isn't an adventure genre is if it's actually a hybrid game, a game of another genre that use stats but which has no other adventure elements. For instance, a pure Beat'em Up but with stats and levels. They'd call it "Beat'em Up/RPG" which is in fact short for "Beat'em Up with RPG elements".

I feel like calling games like LOZ (excluding Zelda II) 'RPGs' opens up questions like 'Is Super Metroid an RPG'. After all, what's the objective difference between A Link to the Past and Super Metroid, gameplay-wise? Both have exploration, both have a silent protagonist, both have a plot, both allow you to upgrade your character by collecting items, and both allow you to visit new areas once you have the right piece of equipment.

I get the impression that the only people calling LOZ an RPG are people who think 'oh, look, it's a cute fantasy game with a top-down perspective, like Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy, so it must be the same kind of game!'. And, honestly, the only similarity I can see between Zelda games and RPGs are the general 'look' and 'feel' of the game. It reminds me of how my digital TV company classifies 'horror' and 'sci-fi' movies into a single 'horror/sci-fi' genre even though the two have nothing to do with each other and it can even be bad, because you might scare off people who think Star Wars is going to be too 'scary' for them since it's in the 'horror' section. Or how my local bookstore has a category called 'literature' which you can apply to nearly everything.

To those people calling LOZ an RPG and who aren't little babies who don't play video games, why do you think ALLTP is an RPG but Super Metroid is not? What mechanic sets them apart?

>>4929389
>What mechanic sets them apart?
Non-combat interactions with NPCs.

>>4929427
Like the animals that teach you skills in Super Metroid?

it's got faggy wizards ,potions and princesses so it's definitely an rpg. plus it's shit like all rpgs

>>4929445
>Like the monster sprites that it's impossible to touch or interact with at all?
Yeah, totally, dude! Epic animals hoyp!

>>4929519
You can save them though. It's player choice, aka 'role playing'. Ergo, Super Metroid is an RPG.

>>4929389
Yeah, duh. Only an idiot would try yo call Metroid an RPG. The only reason Zelda gets confused is it's top-down perspective and fantasy setting.

>>4929378
Again, only kinda. Tabletop rpgs are spinoffs of tabletop war games. Video game rpgs are spinoffs of tabletop rpgs.

>>4929362
>If "it feels like a RPG" but it has no stats, then it's an adventure game.
No, not all.

Imagine Baldur's Gate, which is AD&D 2e. Now imagine the same game engine, same characters and dialogs, same weapons, same combat. Same everything except that you don't gain experience. Everyone has the same stats, except for HP which is determined by class. Stat-based equipment restrictions are removed and only class-based restrictions remain. Spells are no longer associated with levels, and instead you power them up by finding magic gems. Thac0 and thief skills are no longer improved by leveling up but instead by finding manuals you bring to a trainer (and maybe particular trainers can always raise your skill to a base without manuals) . Items that granted stat bonuses instead simply give you some kind of direct benefit.

Playing the game will feel exactly the same. You'll still make the same kinds of story choices. You'll still build a balanced party. You'll still look for items and money the same way. You'll still shop the same way. You'll still engage in real-time-with-pause tactical combat and make use of spells like Fireball and Magic Missile the same way. You'll still pursue questlines that give you rewards, the only difference is that instead of experience rewards you'll get items that accomplish the same thing.

By the braindead autistic definition, suddenly the game is no longer an RPG, because the XP system was removed, despite the fact that 90% of the gameplay does not actually change.

>I think your problem isn't that you want definitions to use subjectivity, but that you have a hard time drawing the line between subjectivity and objectivity. If we listen to you objectivity doesn't exists.
No, you just don't understand my point. You're triggered by and overly fixated on any mention of subjectivity.

>>4929362
>You say I moved the goalpost by I didn't
I didn't say you moved the goalpost I said you moved the problem.

>>4927229
Its a top down/3d metroidvania

Metroidvania games generally feature a large interconnected world map the player can explore, though access to parts of the world is often limited by doors or other obstacles that can only be passed once the player has acquired special items, tools, weapons or abilities within the game. Acquiring such improvements can also aid the player in defeating more difficult enemies and locating shortcuts and secret areas, and often includes retracing one's steps across the map. Through this, Metroidvania games include tighter integration of story and level design, careful design of levels and character controls to encourage exploration and experimentation, and a means for the player to become more invested in their player character.

>>4929630
>>4929362
What a game feels like to someone is subjective and essentially useless when discussing genre deffinitions.

>>4927229
It's an ARPG (Action RPG).

>>4929691
Nope.

Might as well be honestly, the genre of RPG is pretty meaningless, only being tied together by having stats. But ask yourself what stats actually are. They are systems brought over from tabletop games that existed so the players could have something clear and formal guiding their interaction with the imagined game world. Video games don't need this, all the stats and rules are defined in their code and are contextualized in all sorts of different ways. Zelda's an adventure game with a heavy emphasis on progression, which attempts to create a somewhat cohesive believable world and give the player some degrees of freedom. It's not any different than most action RPG's except its progression isn't handled with exp and levels but gear and permanent upgrades. Action/adventure are cop out genres.

>>4929698
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_role-playing_game#Late_1980s

>An important influence on the action RPG genre was the 1986 action-adventure, The Legend of Zelda, which served as the template for many future action RPGs.[21] In contrast to previous action RPGs, such as Dragon Slayer and Hydlide, which required the player to bump into enemies in order to attack them, The Legend of Zelda featured an attack button that animates a sword swing or projectile attack on the screen.[13][22] It was also an early example of open-world, nonlinear gameplay, and introduced new features such as battery backup saving. These elements have been used in many action RPGs since.[23]

>>4929630
>By the braindead autistic definition, suddenly the game is no longer an RPG, because the XP system was removed, despite the fact that 90% of the gameplay does not actually change.

I can't even tell if this is trolling at this point. What you described would fundamentally change the game and the way it plays. Are you dense or false flagging?

we must abolish the RPG genre, in zelda you roleplay an elf on a quest to smash a [rincess, in call of duty you role play a soldier fucking shit up

>>4929707
Lol

>>4929369
>In movies we do use themes to define genres
This is why I used classical music as an example, since taxonomy is more focused on music theory elements like melody, harmony and polyphony, rhythm, form and structure.

>>4928885
>Care to give an example?
Sorry that I don't have any clear retro examples off the top of my head, but for non-retro:
Dark Souls uses XP/stats to enable custom builds. This is only very mildly different from simply chosing a character with fixed stats to start the game and then being stuck with it for the playthrough. Basically it lets you decide on your build as you go along rather than being locked in to a decision you made without knowing anything about the game.
>I don't see anything "happening" though.
What happens is that people see the XP system and knee-jerk categorize it as an RPG, despite the fact that it simply doesn't play like one most of the time. Playing Dark Souls feels like a 3D Castlevania crossed with Zelda, focused on combat oriented around a well-tuned stamina management system and Bushido Blade style weapon movesets. It feels nothing like any WRPG or JRPG I've ever played, and only very remotely like an JARPG. It's not necessarily 100% wrong to call it an ARPG, but it's usually not the most accurate or appropriate term you could use and sometimes is downright misleading and confusing.

If you want to get into all the objective reasons why Dark Souls doesn't feel like an RPG and why it should be classified otherwise... that would take too much time and space for this format and board rules.

>>4929712
>What you described would fundamentally change the game and the way it plays. Are you dense or false flagging?
How would it fundamentally change? Every decision you make in combat would be the same. Every dialog decision would be the same. Every gear choice would be the same. Every choice about which quest you do would be the same. Every puzzle would be the same. Absolutely nothing would change except for the part where you check your "xp to next level" to see if you're ready to level up and instead you'd bring your quest rewards to a trainer to get your upgrades.

>>4929742
>if you imagine this super specific situation inside a game that would never exist, my argument has a point

Anon...

>>4929735
I personally don't think you've really appreciated Dark Souls if you haven't beaten the game with one of the starting builds.

>>4929735
That's a great example. Dark Souls is an action-rpg. That it gives you feelings related to Zelda and Castlevania is fine, but doesn't change it's genre.

>>4929760
Genres aren't real, they're arbitrary tags people apply to games that give them a certain feeling, the definitions are post-hoc attempts to find commonality between games to which the labels have already been applied

>>4929735
>>4929630
You're using hybrid games as examples for your "let's imagine" argument, to the point I don't know anymore whether you're one of those people who'll argue to the death using examples they know are farfetched instead of admitting their feelings were wrong or if you're just trolling.

Anyway - your example games are action-adventure/RPG games with real time action. Yes, you take out the RPG, they become action-adventure games like Zelda, because they're not pure RPG games.
Now, try and apply your argument to a pure RPG like Dragon Quest....

Btw, the sole fact that you have to use "let's imagine that this game" shows that such games don't exist under that genre.

>>4929763
>to find commonality between games to which the labels have already been applied

No, it's the contrary; and whenever people, reviewers, did it the other way around, it doesn't catch on. For example when it came out some magazine reviewers would call House of the Dead "survival horror", try and find mention of that under that genre these days. Another example is people calling Zelda an RPG.

>>4929771
It's not absolute and new genres pop up constantly but it's generally true, especially for a genre like RPG. I mean ask yourself, do you actually think it has anything to do with tabletop roleplaying? Or will you agree that it has developed into something completely different, because it was applied to everything thoughtlessly.

>>4929771
>Now, try and apply your argument to a pure RPG like Dragon Quest....
Why not? It's a game about walking around and killing enemies by spamming one button, the enemy's strength depends on how many enemies you've killed. The enjoyment would be gone but that's because it comes from the progression system, rather than the gameplay.

>>4929763
>Genres aren't real, they're arbitrary tags people apply to games that give them a certain feeling,

That's completely wrong. No wonder this is all so confusing to you.

>>4929815
You're extremely naive if you think otherwise. I take it you've never thought about why shit like "metroidvania" exists as a genre?

>>4929760
>That it gives you feelings related to Zelda and Castlevania is fine, but doesn't change it's genre.
My feelings aren't special or unusual. Most people who play the game treat it more like an action game than an RPG. Some even treat it like a fighting game and spend most of their time duelfagging at the PvP meta in one of the designated dueling spots. When people recommend DkS to others, it's usually in the context of Metroidvanias or Zelda-style action/adventure games. When people discuss Souls combat, comparisons are more often made to pure action games such as Ninja Gaiden and Devil May Cry than ARPGs like Elder Scrolls or Witcher. The only time it's talked about as an RPG is either when people are using a very inclusive definition on purpose (eg an article about the top 10 JRPGs of of the year), or they are confused and already in the middle of a genre-nitpicking discussion (see here:>>4929176).

If you want an analysis and dissertation on how all the various mechanics add up to being "more action" and "more action-adventure" than RPG, that would take more than this format allows and it's unlikely you'd have the patience to get through it anyway. Games are very complex and the mechanical dynamics that produce a particular game feel vs another aren't always obvious without very careful analysis.

>>4929757
>I'm too dumb to draw appropriate conclusions from a hypothetical example

>>4929771
> such games don't exist under that genre
Completely irrelevant and just proves you are unable to follow the discussion. You're the one fixated on mechanics as defining a genre. All I'm saying that presence of an XP/stat system doesn't, by itself, make a game an RPG. There are many elements that combine to produce a game that plays like an RPG and ultimately the most efficient way to identify a game is to play it and see how it feels. That's all I'm saying. The hypothetical examples (and real non-retro example of DkS), are there to illustrate the point.

>>4927229
It's an action adventure with light RPG elements like upgradeable equipment, etc.

>>4929832
I have and it has nothing to do with feelings.

>>4929861
It has everything to do with feelings, naturally there was SOME reasoning behind it but it was vague, journos and later people applied the genre because those games FELT like Metroid or Metroidvania, which is why it's constantly used to describe standard platformers like Cave Story but not Megaman X

>>4929846
> I'm saying that presence of an XP/stat system doesn't, by itself, make a game an RPG

Not him and it's not the only thing, but it's deffinitely one of the main features. And mechanics are the only useful thing to look at when defining genres.

>>4929786
>It's a game about walking around and killing enemies by spamming one button
This can apply to action adventures too
>the enemy's strength depends on how many enemies you've killed
No, in RPG's the enemy's strenght is determined by stats. Without stats the combat of games like Dragon Quest couldn't exist. How things like turn order and missed attacks could work without being determined by stats?

>>4930125
>This can apply to action adventures too

Action adventure is a very vague genre, its distinction from action rpgs is unclear and entirely arbitrary. I'd say action rpgs are just a subset of it.

>How things like turn order and missed attacks could work without being determined by stats?

Same way as it works in other games, the stats in the form of numbers are hidden from the player and the game uses intuitive visual language to represent the variables

>>4929867
>people applied the genre because those games FELT like Metroid
Wrong, people use the term "Metroidvania" to describe objective mechanics of a game. Metroidvania means "2D action platformer with exploration".
Let's apply this definition to the games you mentioned. Megaman X is a 2D game (check), it's an action platformer because it focus both on avoiding obstacles and defeating enemies through combat (check), but it doesn't have exploration. What does that mean? It means that in Megaman X the stages selected in a menu. They are not interconnected, the player doesn't play in a vast map. Mean while Cave Story is a metroidvania because it is a 2D game (check), it's an action platformer because it focus both on avoiding obstacles and defeating enemies through combat (check) and it has exploration because the game takes place in a single huge map (check).
Is this definition flawed? Maybe, but it's sure more accurate and useful than defining these games according to "how they feel like".

>>4927229
>Role
Rescuing Zelda
>Playing
As Link
>Game
The Hyrule Fantasy

I solved it, fellas. That's /thread.

>>4929735
>>4929630
I don't think you've played either Baldur's Gate or Dark Souks

>>4930173
See this is what I'm talking about, almost immediately you're fucking up here by saying
>but it doesn't have exploration.

Yes it does, the game is built around exploration and finding various items, you even revisit old areas with new powers to gain access to extra areas with upgrades, and there are things like the helmet deliberately designed to encourage exploring the map. This is exactly my point, and why discussions about genres always, without fail, end up being drawn out arguments about the tiniest of details. It's because they're extremely subjective and feelings-based and the definition is post-hoc, you will inevitably run into games which are considered part of a genre but are excluded by your own definition

>>4930187
>Yes it does
Didn't you read my post completely?
>What does that mean? It means that in Megaman X the stages selected in a menu. They are not interconnected, the player doesn't play in a vast map.

>>4929771
>Btw, the sole fact that you have to use "let's imagine that this game" shows that such games don't exist under that genre.

But this just shows how accidental the qualities of the genre are. There's no reason whatsoever an turn based/RTWP RPG with quest/exploration based progression like Zelda instead of EXP shouldn't exist, and it's frankly bizarre that nobody had made one.

The sole issue seems to be that fans need carrot on a stick style motivation as incentive to fight most enemies in the first place.

>>4930210
Neither does Cave Story which is my point

>>4930187
So basically you'd rather agree to disagree about how you feel when someone feels differently than actually engage in constructive discussion of those minor aspects. What he means when he says it doesn't have exploration is that exploration and backtracking aren't a fundamental component. Megaman X can absolutely be played in a linear way, one stage at a time. Metroidvanias cannot.

It's crazy how much you use your feelings to justify your denial of solid, factual arguments. Sure you have a right to feel the way you want to feel but this level of feels could get you killed someday because you felt like cars should stop for you when you cross the street.

>>4930163
>Action adventure is a very vague genre
I don't want to get into an argument about what features a game needs to have in order to be considered an action adventure, but I'd say that A Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time are good representatives of the genre.
>its distinction from action rpgs is unclear and entirely arbitrary.
No, it's not. The distinction being the presence of stats in ARPG's, which you seem to disregard without arguing.
>the stats in the form of numbers are hidden from the player and the game uses intuitive visual language to represent the variables
Maybe I'm just misinterpreting your post, but I don't see how that could work in a turn based game because the player doesn't relay on his reflexes to attack the enemy and to dodge attacks. In a turn based game these things can only be determined by stats (like agility and evasion), so the player needs to know them.

>>4930221
You didn't argue that Cave Story doesn't have interconnected areas in a huge, single map in your previous post. But it doesn't matter because you still would be wrong anyway.

>>4929597
>The only reason Zelda gets confused is it's top-down perspective and fantasy setting.

You're really underestimating how common games that involved going to towns, doing quests and interacting with NPCs in a top down setting that WEREN'T RPGs were.

>>4930234
Why would I need to? Just bringing it up in the context of Megaman X makes that plainly obvious. Also that means literally nothing, that's like saying Castlevania 1 has an interconnected map because the area progression makes sense. That doesn't change that mechanically they are distinct levels that don't connect

>>4930249
I feel like I'm being trolled, no way someone could be this stupid.
>Why would I need to?
Because you claimed that Cave Story doesn't have interconnected areas in a single huge map.
Because that's what I clearly meant by "having exploration" in my post.
>that's like saying Castlevania 1 has an interconnected map
See pic related and compare it to >>4930234

>>4930271
It doesn't, the areas are detached from one another, you can't actually travel from one to the next without using the teleporter and such. Mechanically they are seperate entities

>>4930271
btw here's a better pic

You know you're dealing with an autistic person when the idea of genres defined by a loose, but useful and understandable consensus is incomprehensible to them.

>genres don't exist they're just rationalisations for feelings
Yeah, language signifiers are socially constructed, that doesn't mean shit since you still abide by them, like the idea of human rights making it wrong for me to bash your head in after disagreeing on an online message boards - it's just a intangible rationalisation to hold society together after all.

>>4930305
Strawman as a result of 0 reading comprehension, a sign of low IQ

>>4930224
As you can see that is not what he meant by "exploration", it's something you pulled out of your ass. I'm actually talking strictly about factual observations about others rather than my own feelings, learn to read.

>>4930231
I don't dispute that many people you included use stats to draw the distinction between action adventure and action rpg, the point is that it's a completely silly distinction. Comparing Zelda to something like Ys (or Faxanadu) is always nice because many entries are more or less the same type of game, the only difference is that one has stats the other doesn't, and the only impact on gameplay this has is that Ys gets easier or harder than intended based on how many enemies you've killed, rather than how many hearts you've collected. If that's enough to distinguish the two for you then fine but it's a very autistic and needless distinction that would look like a joke in most other genres. It also stems from RPG as a video game genre being fundamentally broken as I covered previously

>>4927239
/Thread

zelda is for nerds lolz

>>4930423
>because many entries are more or less the same type of game
maybe because both are in part action games

>>4930294
>>4930301
>game doesn't even have backtracking, it's just one stage after the other
>thinking it fits my definition by posting a picture that compiles said stages as if in game they were just one thing
Please kill yourself you autistic retard. It's like arguing with a door, I'm done.

My copy/pasted rambling from a previous thread that was well-received (by one dude):

The "Zelda is an RPG" thing came from your mom. Like, literally. People who don't play video games think that a "role-playing game" is any game where you assume the role of a character.

You are playing as Link. Link acts out a role. Therefore, your mom (logically, to be fair) comes to the conclusion that Zelda is a role-playing game.

Now, your mom on her own doesn't really influence gaming culture. But there are actually people who are closer to the inner circle who think this, too. They play video games, but they might not know a lot about different kinds of video games. They may have grown up playing only platform, run-and-gun, and beat-'em-up games. When 5th gen rolled around, Final Fantasy VII put RPGs truly on the map.

Meet "Derek." Derek writes for GameFuckers, second-rate '90s gaming magazine. Derek grew up playing Mario, Contra, and Double Dragon. He's playing Final Fantasy VII now, because he can't ignore RPGs anymore now that this game is everywhere. Derek notices that FFVII has an inventory system, equipment, and stat gains. He notices that Ocarina of Time also has an inventory, equipment, and health/mana increases. Therefore, he erroneously comes to the conclusion that Zelda is a role-playing game, and lists it as such in his article for GameFuckers, negatively influencing children who did not pick the right magazine.

>>4930334
"It is exploration because it takes place on a single huge map" =/= "It must take place on a single huge map to be exploration" just as not all games that feature exploration are metroidvanias but all metroidvanias feature exploration. You do not seem to grasp the fundamentals of logic.

>>4931013
That's because you are a dumb useless faggot who can't follow an argument. It's that the levels aren't interconnected mechanically in either Megaman X, Cave Story or Castlevania. This map you posted is the same thing as the Cave Story one, a compilation of distinct levels on a bigger map. It doesn't change that you teleport in and out of those levels like you do in Megaman X. Unbelievable that I have to spell this out but you are just that dumb I guess

>>4931091
Its good that you've learned to use his definition instead of your own when trying to argue in defense of his points but this doesn't change or clarify anything because the notion that an interconnected seamless world is necessary for people to consider something a metroidvania is in question with the Cave Story example. Low tier contribution by a tripfag what a surprise

>>4930997
That's obviously untrue anon and you know it. Many of the elements they share don't even have much to do with action like light puzzle solving, exploration for items, focus on character progression and way more especially if you want to get into the presentation and story and such. It mainly comes down to one having less stats than the other, and different approach to puzzle solving where they're more seamlessly integrated into Zelda on a mechanical level

>>4931236
Jesus Christ, do I need to make it even simpler?

All robins are birds. Not all birds are robins.

(Nearly) all games that take place on single large maps feature exploration. Not all games that feature exploration take place on a single large map.

All metroidvanias feature exploration. Not all games that feature exploration are metroidvanias.

Cave Story is a metroidvania. Mega Man X is not a metroidvania. I don't know why you are compelled to insistently muddy the genres of video games but it is not in any way a contribution to anything but chaos.

>>4931295
Do you try very hard to be retarded or does it come naturally? Yet again you are not contributing a damn thing because you are avoiding the meat of the argument instead choosing to point out something obvious (no shit shit non metroidvanias have exploration, who even disputed this you dumb cunt?). Cave Story does not take place on a single interconnected map, it takes place in a bunch of smaller areas that you have to teleport to, with a bunch of side paths for exploration and backtracking. Literally read any of my posts talking to the anon you are siding with because your conclusion is our starting point

>>4927239
zelda 2 had XP

>>4930240
What makes you say that?

>>4927229
Being an RPG is more a question of lineage than mechanics, with that lineage informing the goal of the design.
If you can't trace a game's pedigree to DnD or Dragon Quest, it probably isn't an RPG.

>>4931305
So are you saying Order of Ecclesia isn't metroidvania? Where did the notion that the whole map need to be interconnected start? I've never heard Jeremy Parish describe that as a key feature and he's one of the teo that gets blamed with coining it (he still says it was Sharkey).

Also I've always heard Cave Story referred to as a metroidvania.

>>4931442
It is, connected levels isn't a genre deal breaker. Really metroidvania is just a dumb name for any platforming action-adventure game.

I swear to god people are just fucking retarded over the years due to modern games adding rpg elements into fucking everything. It should be obvious to anyone who plays rpgs what they are.
Zelda 2 is the only actual rpg in the series.

>>4929206
That's just wrong.

>>4930941
For autists.

>>4931442
>Where did the notion that the whole map need to be interconnected start
The fact that "Metroidvania" basically means the cross of Metroid-style exploration with Castlevania-style action. The reference points for games in the genre are Super Metroid for the SNES and Castlevania: Symphony of the Night for the Playstation.

This is not to say that you can't have a metroidvania without an interconnected map if that's what it feels like, but you'll probably have to give a long and cumbersome explanation why that will be lost on people who cling to their crude definition and fail understand the nature of classification in the first place.

Zelda is pretty much the defining game of the action-adventure genre.

>>4929198
There have been too many games that copy Zelda to count.
>real-time world interaction
What? Aside from the days progressing in Majora's Mask, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

>>4932953
I dunno, until this thread I'd never heard people dispute Cave Story or Order of Ecclesia as metroidvania. Or Portrait or Ruin for that matter.

>>4933206
I take it you're not a big fan of metroidvania games and don't browse the threads dedicated to them then because Cave Story's status as one is regularly disputed. I don't know why you're bringing up OoE or PoR here though because both have large interconnected castles taking up half the games. Though with that said I've even seen people complain about OoE not being a metroidvania because they didn't get to the castle.

>>4933219
You're right that I'm not really a fan of the genre so I haven't seen the dispute. But I have played cave story and ooe as well as all the igavanias and think of them all in the same genre. What other genre would you plop cs or ooe into?

Also the castle in that game is hardly half of it.

>>4932873
Please tell my why this is false. How many games have characters that are anything like Anju in them?

>>4933205
>There have been too many games that copy Zelda to count.

You have Okami, Landstalker, Alundra, Beyond Oasis, Darksiders, Beyond Good and Evil, 3D Dot Heros, Oceanhorn and what?

Virtually all of these have much simpler structure than the Zelda games they are trying to take after.

>I'm not sure what you're talking about

The way that not only do you have tons of individual ways of interacting with the world, but that each part of the environment can potentially respond to each of these in equally unique ways. You can't rule out the possibility of things like, that playing a given sequence of notes on a specific instrument in a particular place/time might have some particular unique purpose or effect, and things like that do actually occur, and these possibilities are multiplied by both the amount of situations and possible meaningful interactions.

I don't disagree that Zelda has basically defined the genre, but there isn't much, if anything, that matches up to what it actually does.

The concept of "genre" can be thought of as an advertising tool, from the perspective of a publisher, a source of reference, from the perspective of a designer, and a source of expectation, for a consumer.

From these perspectives one would have to conclude that Zelda is more or less its own thing. Originally, Nintendo did not advertise Zelda as being part of a genre, even if there were obvious unstated connections to RPGs, and today publishers, designers, and consumers still consider Zelda games to be a genre unto themselves.

However connections to RPGs cannot be denied.

Publishers don't need to advertise Zelda as an RPG because its fantasy aesthetic creates an obvious visual connection without the need to burden the product with genre conventions.

Consumers demand that the series keep up with the RPG Jonses and punish the series when it lags too far behind or strays too far off on its own.

Designers, respond to consumer demands by adding RPG elements. When consumers complain the series is too immature compared to comparable RPGs, they make the games darker. When consumers complain that they are too linear compared to wRPGs, they make the game open world.

Zelda wants you to believe it's its own thing, and it is, but it is a thing forever tied to the RPG genre.

>>4933247
There are no other well established genres to describe platformers like Cave Story that's why metroidvania is used to begin with. I don't mind the term since it fills a hole and does it about as well as you can expect from a genre. But it's one of those things where the more you think about and define it, the more the arbitrary its current state seems. The interconnectedness does seem to be the defining feature above all else, since if you compare Megaman X with Megaman ZX, they are mostly the same game except with one having an interconnected world while the other consisting of distinct levels. This excludes games like Cave Story though. As I said to begin with, it's best to go on feel than to think about this too hard when it comes to genres.

Here's a more interesting question: is Castlevania SoTN an RPG? You could actually make a case for this one being, as there is level progression in it.

>>4934220
Level progression is not what defines an rpg.

You see that kind of shit put into every genre now.

>>4934225
What is SoTN missing that stops it from being an RPG?

>>4927229
It's an action-adventure rpg-lite, but using genres to define games has been useless since the late '90s. I still love my adventure games like the Lucasarts and Mystlikes but try and find one if you type in adventure in any search engine.

>>4934225
>>4934234
Notice that wikipedia's page indeed categorizes SoTN as an RPG but doesn't do it for Zelda:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castlevania:_Symphony_of_the_Night
>Castlevania: Symphony of the Night[a][2] is a platform-adventure action role-playing game

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda:_A_Link_to_the_Past
>The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past[a] is an action-adventure video game

>>4931370
Zelda 2 is an RPG. OP's image asks if The Legend of Zelda is an RPG. It isn't.

>>4933940
>You have Okami, Landstalker, Alundra, Beyond Oasis, Darksiders, Beyond Good and Evil, 3D Dot Heros, Oceanhorn and what?
Golden Axe Warrior, Neutopia, Crystalis, Crusader of Centy, Gunman's Proof, literal ass tons of modern "retro games" like Hob, Blossom Tales, Little Dew, Hyper Light Drifter etc. Zelda is one of the most imitated games of all time.

>>4934225
Yeah, and "with RPG elements" or "hybrid RPG" is a phrase that gets attached to all those games. Games are very complex these days and sell better if they actively cross genres. That's one of the nice things about retro games. You get the game you were expecting.

Link has no agency. Ergo, it's not an RPG. The world doesn't react to your choices--you can't make any to begin with.

>>4934234
Role playing, choices, resource management, multiple play styles.

Symphony is an action game

>>4934357
>resource management, multiple play styles.
Has both. Resource management comes in the form of potions/hearts and multiple playstyles comes from the gear and magic you can equip, and levels of course.
>Role playing, choices
Are you a "jrpg's aren't actually rpg's" autist?

>>4927575
"goofy mario mechanics" like character creation, stat growth, and story? stop being retarded it's an rpg

>>4934305
>That's one of the nice things about retro games. You get the game you were expecting.

I've been overall agreeing with you, but this is one of the things I like about modern games, is the experimentation with blending genres.

>>4934161
I think an interconnected world is a bonus for a metroidvania, but not necessarily a deal breaker and Order of Ecclesia and Cave Story are a couple if good examples.

Roguelikes have a fairly good set of high value and low value features that combine to make something a roguelike. Usually a game that fits most if the high value features but misses one is still considered a roguelike. It's when several features are changed, omitted or replaced that the game drifts into another genre (usually roguelite or roguelokelike)

>>4934263
SotN has what are seen as rpg elements, being xp gained by killing enemies that levels up your stats. Even though it's mostly an action platform game, it is also in many ways an action-rpg like Secret of Mana.

Zelda on the other hand is an action-adventure game that mostly gets confused with rpgs due to theme and camera angle.

So in a weird and shocking twist of fate, Wikipedia is actually right for once.

>>4934401
Well yeah a lot of times blending of genres is great and I play more modern games than retro games but you have to do more homework about modern games if you want to be relatively sure you're getting a game that you'll enjoy - which is fine because in the modern era it's easy to read extensive examinations of games and watch gameplay videos even if it does "spoil" games somewhat. When it comes to retro games it's easy to just say "Well I loved this game and finished it, next I should play this other game"

>>4934442
I think my tastes have always been so picky that I've never trusted just a genre or even series to be a guarantee that I'd like it. But I generally take your point.

>>4934393
It's literally a golf game not an RPG.

>>4934401
Roguelike fans were autistic enough to adequately define the genre fairly early on, most don't have that at all. There are no rules for what makes a metroidvania besides exploration and character progression, and no standards for what constitutes as the right type of exploration or character progression. Not even the platformer bit is important because there are many non-platformer metroidvanias such as Aquaria or Insanely Twisted Shadow Planet. The only thing concrete is interconnected semi open worlds, but as you're seeing that excludes games which are often refered to as metroidvanias. Knocking it down a notch in terms of importance also opens the door for Megaman X/Zero to be considered a metroidvania like their sequels. There are bunch of other examples, such as Demon's Crest.

>>4934620
Roguelikes sort of had to because they're mostly fan made and there are so many iterations.

Metroidvania was used to refer to what seemed to be an emerging genre and has always been a little slapdash as a term and disliked by many. Heck even the two people said to have coined it hate the term and both blame the other.

Personally I think it would be ridiculous to make a deffinition of metroidvania that excluded Cave Story or OoE, but I don't care enough about the genre to really care.

>>4933940
Psychonauts is a smaller game, but contains the element you described.

Are you familiar with Willow on the NES? A very competent Zelda inspired game, from what I remember.

Zelda is not an RPG, but it's easily mistaken as one. In fact, when I bought my first Zelda game I was only really familiar with sports games, platformers and beat em ups. At the time at which my family bought an N64 my sis told me to grab either Quest 64 or Ocarina of Time (thankfully I chose the latter) and I was told it was an "RPG". Not too long after I would get to play FFVII and it wasn't just all that clear to me by then.

>>4935076
So again, it's only mistaken as one if you're a little kid or a dumb parent who don't know anything about video games.

>>4927229
If you have no control over your character development, this is not an RPG and is just an adventure game with numbers.

>>4928470
Those are not RPG elements though. Those are adventure elements. Progression!=RPG

>>4930163
"Adventure" is a game with progression and action based puzzles that require said progression. i.e. Zelda, Metroid, Flashback, Dizzy etc. All of those are adventure games.
Take out the Action part and you get Quests.
Many people mix up those two, but it's simple, really.

>>4927239
>>4927472
There are plenty of RPGs that don't have XP. For instance GURPS and FATE tabletop systems increase player stats and skills based on his actions and challenges he has surpassed. However, this is mostly the work for a GM, and rarely used in computer RPGs because numbers are easier and more gratifying.
There are some item-based RPGs too, like Victor Vran - a more modern example. Your character is defined by equipment and ability artifacts, and you use equipment upgrade system to upgrade the ones you want to use by transmuting and sacrificing trash ones.

>>4927229
RPG has a lot of definitions.
In a semantic sense, you are ROLE PLAYING as Link in Hyrule, so in that case, most games are ROLE PLAYING games. In a traditional sense, role playing games are based on DnD type games - they need at least some of these: leveling, skills, party members, and possibly turn based combat.

>>4938647
>GURPs and FATE and Victor Vran
>>>/tg/ please try to stay on topic

>>4938664
Victor Vran is not /tg/
GURPS have been used in older PC RPGs.

>>4938647
I love GURPS, but not /vr/.
But I've always wanted to make a traditional RPG using it's system, maybe as homebrew on Dreamcast.

>>4938681
>Victor Vran is not /tg/
Ah, I see it's /v/ but I also see that it does in fact use XPs. XPs are XPs even if they level up weapons rather than characters
>GURPS have been used in older PC RPGs
Fallout uses XPs. Were you referring to some other older PC RPG?

>>4938702
Fallout uses SPECIAL because they couldn't use GURPS for reasons i don't remember, its precursor - Wasteland, used GURPS.
In Vran, player levels only limit some level-restricted equipment and how far he can upgrade the ones he has. Actual character traits and active abilities are all determined by equipment.

But that's all beside the point, which is - you CAN have an RPG without EXP, or even levels for that matter, it's just EXP is a concept that is easier to sell to an average player.

>>4938721
All /vr/ RPGs have XPs. Period. I'm sure there are some more modern games with RPG elements that try very hard to hide their XPs and leveling systems from the player but they have them and if they actually don't, they're not RPGs. GURPS even has CPs and just because they're rewarded more based on how much players suck the GM's dick versus equitable merit based systems doesn't mean they aren't XPs. A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet.

>>4938750
We've come to the point of inventing new definitions to justify the argument
I guess any further discussion is pointless

>>4938754
No, you're arguing that an XP isn't an XP if it's called a CP. Points that are awarded from experiences and are used to increase a character's strengths are what define an RPG and these are generally referred to as XPs.

Legend of Zelda doesn't have XPs ergo it is not an RPG

>>4938772
im not arguing that Zelda is not an RPG.
Im arguing that XP are not necessary for a game to be an RPG. XP is a byproduct, not the main core. It is improper to define RPG by a "has XP" metric.

>>4938817
Whether it is the cause or a symptom is not relative to the diagnosis. In video game terms if it has XPs it's an RPG and if it doesn't, it's not.

If you want to discuss the nuances of non-video game RPGs, that's a /tg/ discussion and I assume that modern video games may be reaching levels of social connection they might not absolutely require XPs, but that's a discussion for /v/

>>4938829
by your definition SOTN is an RPG.
but it's not.
COD multiplayer must be an RPG too...
but it's not.

>>4938843
SotN is absolutely an action RPG. I don't play COD and it's certainly not /vr/ but if you gain XPs and use them to improve your abilities then yes, it has RPG elements

>>4938848
and you have just proved yourself a retard

goodbye

>>4938750
>GURPS even has CPs and just because they're rewarded more based on how much players suck the GM's dick versus equitable merit based systems doesn't mean they aren't XPs

>>4938772
>Legend of Zelda doesn't have XPs

In Zelda you gain hearts depending on whether you find them or not. So they are kinda like XP.
That means Zelda is an RPG

>>4938857
Goodbye. In the future, please keep your /tg/ and /v/ perspectives on the definition of RPG on the appropriate boards

>>4931062
>it has inventory, equipment, and health/mana increases, it must be an RPG
>>4938848
>it has XP, so it must be an RPG

Holy shit, you are the same brand of retarded and you don't even realize it.

>>4938862
No, hearts are not assigned plus they are limited story awards. Conversely rupees are unlimited but the upgrades they can purchase are profoundly limited.

In the /vr/ era the distinction between RPG games and non-RPG games is very clear and I find it difficult to believe people have such a hard time grasping them. As I said before modern games absolutely love to incorporate RPG elements and maybe this is the source of the developmental disability that keeps people from being able to grasp the pathetically obvious.

SotN is actually a pretty good example of a /vr/ game that's tacked on RPG elements with limited actual effect on gameplay so it follows that it would be a game pedants jump on.

>>4938891
Difference being a lack of agency. Equipment, health and mana increases tied to story progression are not XPs. They are not player assigned and they're not rewarded for experience but rather as a plot element.

>>4938848
>SotN is absolutely an action RPG

>>4938904
yet you lack any ability to distribute EXP in SOTN
There is no agency involved

your definitions are flawed and you fail to see it

>>4938896
>>4938904

If agency in how you level your characters is essential for an RPG, are you saying that Final Fantasy games aren't RPGs? Every level has pre-determined stat increases that you don't manually assign. Is Fire Emblem not an RPG because the attribute increases are randomized and not player-controlled?

>>4927229
Action-rpg. This isn’t up for debate.

>>4938952
not him, he's a retard, but...
jRPGs arent really RPGs for the reasons you mentioned.

>>4938964
Lol it's not an action-rpg though.