/vr/ - Retro Games

What is a CRPG? I've heard of JRPGs, WRPGs, SRPGs, and TRPGs, but never a CRPG.

>>4920221
Stands for Computer RPG.

A good game will be always be good game by its own merits. This is nothing more than a thinly veiled cherrypicking playground fight. You will find shit and gold in both, as it tends to go in any medium.

I wasted a reply. You faggots will go all tribalism anyway

Matter of preference, obviously.

>>4920224
Ah, so it's basically just another name for WRPGs.

I always felt that most of the WRPGs I played had really weak character development, and didn't do a good job of making me interested in the worlds they took place in. They seem to lay out an objective for you, and tell you to get there however you want (with some required main quest stuff along the way), which makes for a very boring game, I feel.

JRPGs, in general, have a pre-crafted story for you to play through, and there's not much you can change, even when you're given multiple choices throughout the game. However, because you're playing through a story that's already been developed, rather than stumbling from point A to point K like in a WRPG, I feel that JRPGs will always be better, in general.

JRPGs tell a story (your feelings on the quality of said story will vary), while WRPGs just kinda put you in a large playpen and make you entertain yourself.

>>4920217
What a dumb thread, you do know that many JRPGs were released on computers and therefor are also CRPGs? Also what >>4920226 said.

>>4920232
>so it's basically just another name for WRPGs
No, not exactly. Morrowind is a WRPG, but I wouldn't call it a CRPG. Baldur's Gate is a CRPG, though. All CRPGs are WRPGs, but not all WRPGs are CRPGs.

>>4920234
>you do know that many JRPGs were released on computers and therefor are also CRPGs?

You do know that all games involve playing a role and therefore are also RPGs? CRPG has a much more specific connotation and history and you're an idiot if you think it's purely literal.

>>4920217
JRPGs. Combat is better, art is better, music is better. Good stories can be found in either.

>>4920263
>All CRPGs are WRPGs
Wrong, Black Orb is a CRPG yet it's the first JRPG too.
>>4920271
>You do know that all games involve playing a role and therefore are also RPGs?
The term "RPG" have a specific definition so no your reasoning is wrong.
>CRPG has a much more specific connotation and history and you're an idiot if you think it's purely literal.
Many JRPGs released on computers have elements specific to CRPGs, and yet are still called JRPGs. CRPG and JRPG aren't mutually exclusive.

Weeb RPGs are extremely stagnant, and didn't move against the model established in DQ2 for several generations. The biggest problem with this model is that it causes a disconnect - they'd pile up incredible visuals, cinematic storylines and environments, but the underlying mechanics would feel like a holdover from a 8-bit game. Mechanics like random encounters made sense in tile-based games such as DQ and FF1, but when you get to a fully 3D world they just feel ridiculous and tiring - the battles would drag on for several minutes due to all the fancy animations and loading times, whereas they were speedy and provided only the basic info in early games.
The tendency to pad out games to upwards of 100 hours didn't help design-wise.

Overall, while jRPGs were following stale formulas and only innovating in terms of narrative, cRPGs were constantly evolving through the 90s, trying out completely different systems and styles of gameplay. You could, say, be a fan of blobbers but completely despise isometric RPGs and first-person real-time RPGs, since all of them played very differently. In Japan the best deviation you could hope for were Wizardry clones, which themselves remained stagnant and didn't incorporate any improvements from later western blobbers.

>>4920302
>The term "RPG" have a specific definition so no your reasoning is wrong.
That was my point...

>CRPG and JRPG aren't mutually exclusive.
Yes, I agree. My point is that if FF7 is released on PC that doesn't automatically make it a CRPG. Just like Dark Souls being made by a Japanese developer doesn't make that game a JRPG. Because the terms JRPG and CRPG are more nuanced and specific than their literal "definitions."

Apparently my entire post just whooshed right over your head.

>>4920232
>>4920221
Not him but yes, crpg and wrpg are synonymous. What rock have you been living under all these years?

>>4920354
Dark Souls is still a japanese game in its core. No western trash has a gameplay this balanced and precise. Western pigs can only do shitty scripted gameplay.

>>4920345
And now it's the other way around. WRPGs are casualized garbage for normie brainlets and JRPGs have been getting a lot more complex and varied in terms of mechanics. They used to be simplistic in terms of design back then because they were aimed at children and limited by consoles. WRPGs were more complex because they were mostly on PC and targeted at obese neckbeards who played DnD in a basement.

>>4920451
It's pretty funny how WRPGs have spent the past couple of years simplifying themselves to attract the CoD audience, while JRPGs have spent that time becoming needlessly complex with a clusterfuck of mechanics to the point where some feel like they're bordering on strategy games.

>>4920462
Yes, the target audience of modern JRPGs is now similar to the one of retro WRPGs (obese neckbeards). They're just pandering to the people who grew up with them now, while WRPGs are going for the normie dudebro crowd and simplifying themselves as a result.

>>4920462
But jrpgs mechanics never escape the realm of combat. I'm yet to see a jrpg where I can lockpick chests, doors, etc.
>inb4 DQ's keys

>>4920217
JRPGs. But only just.
100% of CRPGS are mind numbing tolkein wannnabe bullshit.
99% of JRPGS are mind numbing shounen anime bullshit, but there are a handful of brilliant, creative, unique and original games.

>>4920413
It's a Japanese game and it's an RPG, but it's not a JRPG. It has much more in common with WRPGs than JRPGs.

>>4920217
RPG gameplay is implemented through decision making. The worst CRPG has more decision making than the best JRPG, therefore CRPGs are OBJECTIVELY better.
>>4920462
It's literally opposite, though. But what you need to realize is this.

>Bethesda
>CDPR
>Bioware
>Obsidian
>Larian

None of those companies make good RPGs. The real RPG devs are Stygian, Iron Tower, Spiderweb, that lolbertarian that makes the KotC games, etc.

I cannot think of a single genuinely complex JRPG.

>>4920646
>99% of JRPGS are mind numbing shounen anime bullshit, but there are a handful of brilliant, creative, unique and original games.
name one

>>4921072
>the real devs are these no name indie companies that make retro styled games nobody knows about

I literally never heard of any of these companies before.

>I cannot think of a single genuinely complex JRPG

There are plenty. But if you're looking for the garbage outdated clunky gameplay of cRPGs you're not gonna find it obviously. We're past those times.

>>4920302
>Black Orb
That is a dungeon crawler, not a RPG.

>>4921093
>I literally never heard of any of these companies before.
Well, I'm not sure by what metric you're measuring what counts, but those are the devs that are getting critical acclaim from actual RPG sites and people who play RPGs. It should be obvious that AAA games marketed at the masses are going to be bland in samey. Just look at how braindead modern Square JRPGs are.
>There are plenty.
name one

>>4921093
>outdated clunky gameplay
Back to /v/.

>>4921101
Indie games are generally styled after retro ones. They don't really count as modern games. If I didn't know what year something like Underrail was released I'd say it was the late 90s. It looks and plays like something from that time.

>>4921103
>waaah stop criticizing my genre with objectively shit gameplay

>>4921072
>I cannot think of a single genuinely complex JRPG.
Ogre Battle
Tactics Ogre
The entire SaGa series

>>4921117
>Indie games are generally styled after retro ones. They don't really count as modern games. If I didn't know what year something like Underrail was released I'd say it was the late 90s. It looks and plays like something from that time.
JRPGs have been re-using the same mechanics over and over since their inception, what the hell are you talking about? Hell, even Underrail has new stuff that drastically alter the formula like Oddity mode.

>>4921121
I have played all of the Ogre games and SaGa 2, and they seemed pretty braindead to me.

>>4921093
>I literally never heard of any of these companies before.
Nobody cares

>>4921075
Dark Souls :^)

>>4921130
>Dark Souls
Blade of Darkness rip off.

Denouncing indie games with reasoning such as "literally who" is exactly why you keep getting samey titles. You can't go wishing for progress then look the other way simply because it's not AAA. Play for the games, not companies.

>>4921126
>JRPGs have been re-using the same mechanics over and over since their inception

They don't anymore. Just look at the most mainstream JRPG series for an example. It doesn't have the cookie cutter turn based combat since FF12. The combat system was so unique that Dragon Age, a shitty modern WRPG ripped it off.

>>4921127
He's listing retro stuff that's comparable I guess. You'd have to compare modern JRPGs to modern WRPGs if you want to be fair. The former are much more complex and challenging than the latter now. Skyrim, Fallout, Witcher, Bioshit, etc, these are all simple action games with bad gameplay for normies.

JRPG tend to focus on one thing like fighting/raising things/story/exploring, while WRPG/CRPG/whatever try to be a more complete package and give you more shit to do, to mixed results, it can turn either great or very divisive. The devs would have to fuck up really bad to make a jrpg that the fans of the genre hate.

That being said, the "hardcore" fans of both are autistic faggots that seem to only have played like 10 games of the opposite genre from a list made by /v/ and the ones that think jrpg is more than just the country are the absolute worst, a shitty RPG maker game with assets from early Final Fantasy isn't a JRPG.

>>4921174
>You'd have to compare modern JRPGs to modern WRPGs if you want to be fair.
The RPGs I have listed are modern. They are modern takes on the RPG genre made in modern times.
>The combat system was so unique that Dragon Age, a shitty modern WRPG ripped it off.
Automating the same shallow combat is not unique. They both tried to make casual versions of RtwP combat. "What if we made it like this good game but dumbed down so idiots could play it" is not unique or pushing the medium forward.
>b-but JRPGs are so irredeemably shit you have to compare them to skyrim or it doesn't count!!
Just a desperate strawman. Skyrim has more in common with Ultima 7 than Underrail has with Fallout, so I guess Skyrim is a retro game.

If weeblets weren't subhuman, they'd be able to post some niche JRPGs that could compare, but JRPGs have ALWAYS been bad, there is no niche for good JRPGs because there aren't any and JRPG fans don't want good games, they want edgy anime story lines with waifushit. Every single JRPG is bad.

>>4921224
>JRPG tend to focus on one thing like fighting/raising things/story/exploring, while WRPG/CRPG/whatever try to be a more complete package
What is KotC? What is JA2? What is ToEE?

>>4921230
WRPGs are ugly and boring and have shitty combat, aside from Diablo, Oblivion and Skyrim. The "real time but you pause constantly" battle system is the worst thing ever. Baldurs Gate and all its ilk are cancer

Not all WRPG are CRPG

Fallout 4, Skyrim, Mass Effect, etc are WRPGs but they are not CRPGs.

If it looks like DnD then its probably a CRPG. CRPGs evolved directly from pen and paper role playing games and a lot of them use only slightly modified pen and paper rule sets that are used in actual table top games.

>>4921230
>it's accesible so it's dumbed down garbage 4 idiots and kids

>>4921256
ok lol
>>4921264
>accesible
"Accessible" is literally just a buzz word for "designed to appease retards."

The best *RPGs are the ones where you spend more time reading than you do engaging the shitty gameplay, such as Xenogears and Planescape.

>>4921274
>"Accessible" is literally just a buzz word for "designed to appease retards."
Is this kind of mentality a video game fan thing?

>>4921291
Honestly any game that feels like it has something to say is cool.

>>4921313
In the context of video games, how would you define accessible? If we are going to use the literal definition of accessible, almost all WRPGs are accessible. Some even come with phonebook sized manuals that explain every little mechanic. I have ACCESS to every tool I need to fully understand the game, I don't need special training from an expert in RPGology to play them.

>>4920487
I'd genuinely enjoy JRPGs more for the gameplay if the stories and artstyle of the vast majority of them weren't catered toward the absolutely lowest common denominator otakushit.

Jrpg have better stories and fixed characters , Wrpg have open world and custom characters that I prefer much more.
So I guess wrpg, Now a Jrpg with full open world and character creation? Now that's the shit I want.

Alright, real talk. I keep hearing about FF7. I usually play WRPGs. Everyone says I should play 7. Or at least start there. Is it good? How does it compare to something like Morrowind?

>>4921361
Play FF5 instead if you must play one of them.

>>4921365
Is 5 the one with the job system?

>>4921370
Technically, that goes for many pre and post FF games. But 5 is the one with the fluid one, yes.

>>4921380
Is Tactics any good?

And between 5 and 7, which has the better story/characters/atmosphere?

>>4921370
Yes, also seconding that other anon in playing 5 first.

>>4921383
7 has better atmosphere and each character is mostly well developed, if you are curious about that aspect of 7 I suggest playing that one until you finish the Midgar part and see how you like it, 5 is a very different kind of game in tone.

>>4921394
OK, glad you brought that up--why are they both Final Fantasy games? I've been skimming through longplays and I can't see how they're related. Are the stories connected? Maybe they're thematically connected? Is it like the Nier games?

>>4921383
Tactics is alright. It's a simple game but you get your gameplay's worth from it.

As for your criteria, 7 has a better character story, I think. 5 is more comfy adventuring. Atmosphere and gameplay goes to 5 though. The Materia system isn't as fleshed out. Not to say it can't get complex but it's quick to optimize.

>>4921397
Final Fantasies are normally standalone. Only a select few have connections.

>>4921397
Final Fantasy made popular the ATB system so for like 6 games it was probably the one thing (apart from a character named Sid and chocobos) that was recurring in the series.

Very few games are actually completely related in gameplay AND tone, FF3 and 5 are similar except 5 is the better, more polished game, Final Fantasy is at its best when it tries to improve things instead of creating so keep that in mind (FF7 is mostly an improvement in combat for FF6, so don't worry about how better a posterior sequel will be since ATB isn't a thing anymore and the other PS1 games are too different).

>>4920217
JRPGs' lack of choice falls in line with Japanese culture of obeying higher authority and without question and following rules blindly.

WRPGs are based on Western concepts of freedom and individuality so having the option to chose is important.

>>4921526
>WRPGs are based on Western concepts of freedom and individuality so having the option to chose is important.
Don't act like that isn't bullshit. Western games do that railroaded shit, too. The difference between fucking over and allying with NPCs is only significant for about 3 seconds. I can think of about 3 games, both Western and Japanese, that actually DO change up the game dramatically for choices.

>>4921531
>Western games do that railroaded shit, too. The difference between fucking over and allying with NPCs is only significant for about 3 seconds
Play more games. And not for nothing, but divergents quests/dialogue choices are only one way decision making occurs and its usually implemented poorly. Character building and combat are also examples. Hell, I would argue JA2 is a better RPG than anything Japan has ever done and that's barely an RPG. And then you have games like Deus Ex where there is over ten ways just to open up a door.

>>4921526
But western games are easily broken and unfun to play once you figured out how to break them. It shows a lack of work and intelligence from the developers.

>>4920354
> Just like Dark Souls being made by a Japanese developer doesn't make that game a JRPG
Except it does, that's JRPGs definition. Just because some JRPGs followed some trends doesn't mean that no JRPG can be a CRPG.
>>4921095
>dungeon crawlers aren't RPG
Now that's some special kind of retardation. Dungeon crawler is just a way to illustrate the way an RPG plays like. According to your logic, Wizardry isn't an RPG 'cause you're crawling in dungeons, yet it's known as a CRPG.

>>4921596
>Now that's some special kind of retardation. Dungeon crawler is just a way to illustrate the way an RPG plays like
It has no RPG mechanics.
>Wizardry isn't an RPG 'cause you're crawling in dungeons, yet it's known as a CRPG.
Wizardry has RPG mechanics.

>>4921613
>Wizardry has RPG mechanics.
So does Black onyx.

>>4920217
>Which are superior?
>Implying one is superior to the other
>not thinking both are different genres of gameplay that gives you different great experiences

>>4921736
/thread pretty much, it's weird how crpgfags are much more competitive over it though where I haven't seen many jrpgfags try to force some sort of competition between the two and constantly shit on crpgs, it's the definition of "Rent free". In fact we have an example right here >>4921552

>>4921230
>The RPGs I have listed are modern. They are modern takes on the RPG genre made in modern times.

They are indie garbage nobody cares about. They don't represent modern WRPGs in general in any way. You didn't even list Divinity: Original Sin which is indie as well but at least not completely unknown like the other stuff.

>Automating the same shallow combat is not unique

You automate it yourself. It's fairly unique in that regard. Haven't heard of any WRPG that did this before. It takes a lot of strategy to decide what gambits and stuff to use in battle. And it's much more enjoyable than some garbage clunky combat from a retro WRPG.

>If weeblets weren't subhuman, they'd be able to post some niche JRPGs that could compare

Why niche? It depends what you mean by that. Xenoblade, Valkyria Chronicles, Lost Odyssey, Tales of, Dragon's Dogma, Dark Souls, Fire Emblem, etc. All more complex all challenging than modern WRPGs. Why are you so afraid of talking about games that people actually know about?

>>4921350
>Now a Jrpg with full open world and character creation? Now that's the shit I want.

Xenoblade Chronicles X.

>>4920345
>Weeb RPGs are extremely stagnant, and didn't move against the model established in DQ2 for several generations.
Japanese things cannot be weeb.

>inb4 "they're aimed at weebs"
No they're not.

>>4921257
CRPG means Computer Role-Playing Game. If Skyrim is an RPG then it is also a CRPG.

>>4921526
Or maybe JRPGs are just based on early CRPGs and you spend too much time listening to shit on 4chan and the media.

>>4921257
>>4921819
WRPGs nowadays are all braindead action games. And Japan does action RPGs much better unfortunately for westacucks. They never had good gameplay, but they used to be complex because they catered to neckbeard PCfats back then instead of dudebro normies like they do these days.

>>4920217
I only play Japanese games

>>4921832

>>4921835
Fuck off DJT non-sequitur faggot

>>4921779
Why does it matter if "no one heard about them"? The reason for that to begin with is that you fuckers deliberately look over them while praying daily for AAA not to fuck you over despite knowing they'll do it anyway and not pay child support to boot. The literal epitome of "I want this but not like that".

>>4921842
Because indieshit cannot be used as representative of the industry in general. I listed a lot of modern well known JRPGs that are not indie. Why can't westacucks do that?

>>4920276
>JRPGs
>Combat is better
Most JRPG combat is just a mindless progression machine designed to put minimal strain on the player while making numbers go up. In somewhat better ones you do make a bunch of important decisions related to combat, but all the important ones are done before fighting, when you are setting up your equipment, stat spreads, party set up and so on, and this determines your outcome. A couple of rare exceptions go beyond this and have legit awesome shit going on, but almost none of them have a Squaresoft logo.

Retro WRPG's that aren't ARPGs can be divided into two default types, one similar to JRPGs in how it deals with combat, and the second more akin to tactics games. The later one has by default more meaningful decisions in combat than JRPGs because positioning, range and attack spreads matter. In good games of the genre you need to be mindful of these things to not eat shit in combat. The best games of this type can set up a whole lot of really interesting tactical encounters in the same maps you would be able to peacefully explored depending on how you play.

tl;dr
You are wrong. There's a bunch of WRPGs with really bad combat interfaces though, so I get the appeal of smooth, mindless progression machines compared to that.

I can't think of anyone who has played bakery's gate, fallout or any other mid-late 90s crpg and still thought final fantasy 7 was a comparible rpg. The reason people liked games like that is because their perspective is limited due to thinking that Dragon Quest and final fantasy were the pinnacle of RPGs. Most of the JRPGs that were popular in the US were and are hot garbage. Some of the japan only games were decent. Tactics Ogre and Vandal Hearts are pretty good

>>4920217
I've never noticed that about JRPGs

>>4922242
>muh positioning
No, I'm talking about the way combat works. Turn-based and ATB battle systems are a thousand times more fun than the Baldurs Gate style of combat where you have to pause constantly. It's terrible.

>>4922259
I like FFVII better because I actually played that game in my childhood. Baldur's Gate and Fallout were targeted at the DnD neckbeard crowd, not children. The simplistic design of early JRPGs is excused by the fact that the target audience was different. A kid isn't going to be interested in something with a clusterfuck of clunky and complex mechanics like Baldur's Gate.

My acronym is better than your acronym: The Thread

Ideally, I want a JRPG with blobber combat. Skippable turns, fast with no bullshit animations. This is why I have trouble playing anything past early 16-bit Dragon Quest, just the idea of half the gameplay consisting of waiting for attacks to end keeps me from starting the games the first place.
Amazing how they can fuck up something that was totally fine in the 80s.

>>4921582
>WRPGs with exploitable mechanics
>The developers are lazy and unintelligent

>JRPGs with exploitable mechanics
>It's a feature!

>>4922291
>Comparing combat systems of JRPGs in general with a specific WRPG combat system.

>>4922658
This. DQ I and III are the only games I can stomach. I’ve heard sudoken is good for that but I haven’t got around to playing it.

>>4921736
>repeatedly ask for specific examples of what a good JRPG is
>get suggested shit
>list reasons why game is objectively bad
>u-uh, b-both jrpgs and wrpgs are g-good for different reasons, but I won't list them!
Every. Single. Time. Can we just bury this shit genre?

>>4920234
I agree

>>4921779
>Xenoblade, Valkyria Chronicles, Lost Odyssey, Tales of, Dragon's Dogma, Dark Souls, Fire Emblem, etc. All more complex all challenging than modern WRPGs
None of those are remotely complex. I bet someone like you couldn't even make it past the character creation in Age of Decadence. The fact of the matter is, there isn't a single good JRPG. All you have to do is list one that isn't made for lowest common denominator retards and you can't.
>You didn't even list Divinity: Original Sin which is indie
>Larian has successfully tricked retards into thinking they are some small indie company

>>4922969
All of the points in that image are invalidated because the characters on the left are ugly and the characters on the right are cute.

When will WRPGs learn to make cute characters??? It's not fucking hard

>>4922804
What are some good WRPGs with different combat systems then? Because so far I've only seen pausemisery and first person dungeon crawlers.

>>4922985
Based weeb valuing style over substance.

>>4922985
>When will WRPGs learn to make cute characters???
Nobody is stopping you from RP'ing as a nipponese slut monkey.

>>4922989
>temple of elemental evil
>knights of the chalice
>jagged alliance 2
>banner saga
>realms of arkania
>expedition
All good varied combat.

>>4923000
This right there, the only redeeming feature of WRPGs. Being able to mod out the ugly women.

>>4922943
No game could be posted and not just be met with shitposting.

So WRPG-Kun shitposting finally reached /vr/ too.
Further proof this place is turning more and more into /v/ with each passing day.

>>4923032
That's because they're all shit.

>>4923036
This shit'll die down by September, don't worry

>>4923013
I see you enjoy shoving anime into things where it doesn’t belong. How about putting somewhere it does?
>>>/trash/

>>4923032
You just don't want to see your favorite game get ripped apart.

>>4923013
Damn she's cute. This game looks interesting

>>4923010
I tried ToEE, it was better but my attacks and the enemies' attacks missed constantly and there were a fuckton of rules I had to memorize to do anything. Any of these have simpler combat systems?

>>4923059
>Any of these have simpler combat systems?
Yeah, JA2, Banner Saga, and Expedition are all pretty simple, but I really don't know how you can expect complex combat without a complex system. KotC is complicated but everything has tooltips. But at the end of the day, good engaging combat is going to have some degree of complexity, that's kind of the point. Maybe you ought to just be patient and spend half an hour learning the game, it might knock loose some of the shit caked all over the inside of your skull that has built up from being babied by casual trash. Humans are hardwired to enjoy learning, something is physically wrong with you.

>>4923049
No, I'm not a weak willed faggot who gets sad when some stranger online says something bad about my favorite game. I acknowledge my favorite games have flaws and like them regardless.

Here, shit on these if you want.
>SMT: Nocturne
>SMT: Strange Journey
>Breath of Fire IV
>Earthbound
>Dragon Quest III
>Metal Max Returns

>>4923013
cursed image

>>4923078
Maybe I just don't like learning about things I'm not interested in. I've learned the ins and outs of the JRPGs I like.

>>4920217
The ones that are actually fun JRPGs

>>4923139
>SMT: Nocturne
>SMT: Strange Journey
Building an entire game around vulnerabilities is a bad mechanic because they not only dictate what moves you should use at all times, but also how you should build your party.

Additionally, SJ is offensively bad due to shit like locking off parts of the maps so you have to do a quest, backtrack, sit through a VN segment, unlock a new part of the map, quest, backtrack, VN, map, etc., which is just absolute heresy in terms of immersion, plus the maps themselves are also designed to drag out the game with shit like double wide corridors so 100%ing the map takes longer than necessary and retarded spammy use of portals and one way doors. God I hate SJ so fucking much, what a bad game, I don't know how you can fuck the blobber formula up so bad.

>Breath of Fire IV
>Earthbound
>Dragon Quest III
Storyfag games, except its weebshit so the stories are quirky, shallow, and railroaded. Gameplay is virtually non-existent. Quirkyness is key here, really lures in the onions attics.
>Metal Max Returns
So generic that the protagonist is some edgy kid that runs away from his dad to go be an adventurer and is literally named "Hero." Go play that Westwood Battletech game instead, same gameplay concept but way better implemented.

>>4923139
>SMT: Nocturne
>SMT: Strange Journey
Building an entire game around vulnerabilities is a bad mechanic because they not only dictate what moves you should use at all times, but also how you should build your party.

Additionally, SJ is offensively bad due to shit like locking off parts of the maps so you have to do a quest, backtrack, sit through a VN segment, unlock a new part of the map, quest, backtrack, VN, map, etc., which is just absolute heresy in terms of immersion, plus the maps themselves are also designed to drag out the game with shit like double wide corridors so 100%ing the map takes longer than necessary and retarded spammy use of portals and one way doors. God I hate SJ so fucking much, what a bad game, I don't know how you can fuck the blobber formula up so bad.

>Breath of Fire IV
>Earthbound
>Dragon Quest III
Storyfag games, except its weebshit so the stories are quirky, shallow, and railroaded. Gameplay is virtually non-existent. Quirkyness is key here, really lures in the soi addicts.
>Metal Max Returns
So generic that the protagonist is some edgy kid that runs away from his dad to go be an adventurer and is literally named "Hero." Go play that Westwood Battletech game instead, same gameplay concept but way better implemented.

>>4923365
>DQ3
>Storyfag

I never played the SNES version, is there more of that or something? As far as the NES copy goes, it's straightforward gameplay progression. That I recall it not being anime is how I can even play it to begin with since I drop anime games hard if the tropes get too extreme. I couldn't even tell you the story in detail if my life were on the line. Not that anon, btw.

>>4923365
Earthbound is hardly weebshit, it's extremely western in story and setting

>>4920217

>>4920217
JRPGs are the best when they borrow from WRPGs and vice versa

>>4923365
>earthbound
>weebshit
lol it's the most westaboo game outside of mgs

>>4923378
That image doesn't really work because the cat on the right is clearly better.

>>4921819
>CRPG means Computer Role-Playing Game. If Skyrim is an RPG then it is also a CRPG.
Only if you take it literally. In hardcore RPG circles, "cRPG" stands for the computer equivalent of a tabletop RPG, or a computer game resembling tabletop RPGs. Skyrim most definitely is neither of those.

>>4922985
>All of the points in that image are invalidated because the characters on the left are ugly and the characters on the right are cute.
Unironically this. That image paints JRPGs as the most boring trash ever, but desu I really loved FFIX and I had to mod out BG2's awful portraits.

>>4923642
>tabletop RPGs
have always had the worst rulesets ever. I always made my own systems when I DM'd online games to make them more JRPG-like

There is no right or wrong answer. Play whatever game has features you enjoy and stop this pitiful fighting.

>>4923390
If you like weird mixes of the two look into pic related.

>>4923735
I really wish I continued this game. I got it when it came out and no longer have access to that PC.

>>4923706
I agree but this is 4chan: obnoxious squabbling makes up like half of discussion here

>>4923738
I think it's one steam and/or gog anon.

>>4922853
DQ3 is an amazing game that really needs more respect from western weebs.

>>4923735
>Need...more...caffeine...must...keep...playing...

>>4921526
>authority bad, freedom gud
>therefore jrpgs bad, wrpgs gud
cringe

>>4922969
>that picture
>"jrpgs are bad because they are not like wrpgs"
wow great argument

>>4923047
>not liking 2d girls
WRPGfags confirmed being homos

>>4923378
Dumbest image I've ever seen on 4chan.

>>4920217
>Crpgs are as dead as Jimmy Hoffa
>JRPGs are still around and thriving
I mean, even garbage like Neptunia gets translated and sells well enough for sequels without having to grovel for u fund it money.

The faggots that need to have ecchi in every media they consume is why people shit on anime/manga fans. Do you masturbate to every RPG you play or something? I prefer a western artstyle when I'm playing a cRPG. Not every woman has to be wearing skimpy skirts and have uguu~ big eyes. I have my doujin collection when I want that shit.

>>4923049
I'm pretty sure nobody here cares about your opinions on their favorite games desu

>>4924658
And I don't need women in my vidiya to be ugly and disgusting. I have my real life when I want that shit.

>>4924508
>Crpgs are as dead as Jimmy Hoffa
they're not tho, the player base just fractured into normalfags and grognards

>>4924904
Well, he posted them and the comment got deleted so...

>ZERO WRPGs with good gameplay
>plenty of JRPGs that don't have the slow and boring turn based combat system

JRPGs win. Specially in the Action RPG department. The West with it's inability to produce good gameplay gets absolutely ass kicked there.

>>4924991
b-but muh deep roleplay in a generic tolkien/sci-fi setting!

>>4924991
wrong, there isn't a single JRPG with combat as good as blade of darkness or dark messiah, not that it matters because RPGs are strategy games, not action games.

>>4925017

>>4925017
>gameplay doesn't matter because of some term people use to refer to these games

>>4925023
Strategy is the gameplay. Decision making is one of three ways to interact (GAMEPLAY) with a game.

>>4925017
>>4925020
seems like a souls game but with clumsy gameplay

>>4925027
well, combat still is part of these games' gameplay, right?

>>4925029
>seems like
lol ok

>>4925034
>well, combat still is part of these games' gameplay, right?
Not the strategy part of the gameplay, no. Its the action part of the gameplay. So if you have a game with terrible strategy and mediocre action, the end result is an action game that is even less that mediocre because its bogged down by terrible strategy mechanics that don't need to be there. And that's what "ARPGs" really are. Really shitty action games.

>>4925017
>>4925020
>that garbage
>good combat

lmao

>>4924658
Personally I need hot anime dudes and no western game ever has those

>>4925042
>better, more technical combat than souls even though it came before it
>can even cut off a man's arm, pick up the arm, and then beat him to death with it
>bad

>>4925047
Except it looks 10x worse. Leave hack 'n slash gameplay to the Japs, okay. The West is laughably bad at it.

>>4925049
>Except it looks 10x worse.
Explain yourself, pal.

>>4925049
It isn't attempting to be le crazy hack and slash m8. It's trying to be a tactical real time action game.

>>4925074
>action game
>save anywhere you want

>>4925074
Neither is Dark Souls, but at least the combat doesn't look as clumsy and slow. This is like saying DmC has better combat than the original DMC games (yes, I know this game came first). It's clearly inferior to it.

>>4925091
>clumsy and slow
buzzwords

>>4925085
>game is only "challenging" if you have to go for an hour long stretch without saving
man, why are all japanese games for babies

>>4925113
okay, post valid words that can be used to describe a game

Honestly, I play both but I have automatically more respect for a cRPG. JRPGs are enjoyed by normies, shitty RPGMaker clones get made all the time and played by weebs, they are in no danger of dying out.
Meanwhile, making an oldschool cRPG is a risk, the companies sure aren't willing to do it. It happens very rarely that someone releases a game like Might & Magic X or Inquisitor. They are to be cherished, not just another drop in the pond.

>>4920451
this is so true. I'm glad Divinity 2 was a hit but I think the golden age of crpg's has long since passed.

>>4925085
That's a good thing. Don't sit here and tell me checkpoint system is better then manual saving. It's not it's always worse and I don't wanna hear "You'll just abuse it".
No you will just abuse it I use it sparingly when I want to try something out and i'm not sure it will work.
Something pc games have always had and only started when they started shifting there focus to console fags.

>>4925116
few games have an entire hour of gameplay between save points
also
>implying save scumming doesn't make every game easy

>>4925118
>Might & Magic X or Inquisitor

>>4925118
WRPGs are more popular than ever though. But they are now all (bad) action RPGs. Japan will always be superior in this genre. It's funny how some people say Dark Souls is a WRPG even though it has absolutely nothing in common with Western games beyond having a medieval fantasy setting.

>>4925123
>implying save scumming doesn't make every game easy
Not if its a good game that focuses on making each individual encounter difficult, no.

>>4925091
It's not clunky nor is it slow. It's just not cuhrazee and honestly this game and dark souls have decent fucking combat.
Just because it wasn't made by fucking Japanese doesn't disqualify it you fucking weebs.
Especially since this was way ahead of it's fucking time.

>>4925126
>Dark Souls is a WRPG
Dark Souls is CRPG
>it has absolutely nothing in common with Western games beyond having a medieval fantasy setting.
That is completely wrong.

>>4925121
>Don't sit here and tell me checkpoint system is better then manual saving.
It is though. Checkpoints give the player some sort of punishment for being defeated.
>I want to try something out and i'm not sure it will work
You can do the same thing with checkpoints.

>>4925132
Dark souls has alot of similarities with western games for sure, but it's not a CRPG

>>4925120
But Divinity 2 was awful. Especially the second half when you have to fight all those flying fortresses.

>>4925121
Consolefags hate options, and they convince themselves that having less options makes the game better. Just get in a debate about 30FPS with one of these creatures, their delusional defense mechanism is out of this world.

>>4925135
>has CRPG mechanics
>not a crpg

>>4925134
>punishment for being defeated
Not as important as allowing the player to save when they want to.
The only genre that can get away with this is horror games since they have an emphasis on player survival bringing fear into your heart.
You can't do that with checkpoint system without slogging your way back to whatever point you previously on before that checkpoint.. If you say wanted to use poison on that guard up ahead but it doesn't work out and you want to go back and just stab him instead with the check point system you'll have to go back to your previous checkpoint before you can actually attempt that.

>>4925132
>>4925135
It's a boss-rush oriented game for the most part. Boss fights are the absolute last aspect that Western games are known for. I'm sorry you're a brainlet who only pays attention to the visuals and nothing else.

>>4925142
It has rpg mechanics. Not CRPG mechanics. Can you pickpocket, open up doors, and forage, and create food on the fly in darksouls?

>>4925139
Save scumming gets rid of any challenge the game may give you.
>b-but's it's optional
Any game can be hard if you use self-imposed rules.

>>4925142
Genre definitions change. A CRPG used to mean any game that follows the tradition of Wizardry, but that fundamentally changed in the mid-90s. Nowada
ys, the tradition that defines a cRPG is basically Fallout 1. Choice and consequence, multiple viable builds, freedom to explore, meaningful dialogue options - these are what everyone expects in a cRPG, yet they barely even existed in early blobbers.

>>4925150
>it's a boss rush oriented game
It's not.
>Then cherry picks with some of the worse western bosses you can possibly find and shit meant for fucking dribbling retarded jocks to play.
Come on man.

>>4925154
>Save scumming is bad
>Don't fucking use it.
>Oh but now your purposely gimping yourself.
No one should care if the faggot wants to save scum. It's like getting upset people are using cheats to beat a game they find hard. So what? Let them play the game they want to play it.

>>4925147
>Not as important as allowing the player to save when they want to.
How does it make the game better for you?

>>4925162
It gives me freedom to fucking save you consolecuck. Giving the player options to do whatever is better then not fucking giving them the option.

>>4925159
>It's not.

It is. The whole pointing is beating a boss and then getting to the next one.

It's extremely rare for Western games to be focused around fighting bosses or have a single good boss fight in them.

>>4925161
The reality is that you and other players are simply too dumb to know what you want. That's why game designers are needed to begin with. If people knew what they wanted their job would just be to throw in a bunch of mechanics and content in a sandbox then let players find their own fun

>>4925139
>that having less options makes the game better
No, having an actual game design makes the game better. Letting players replaying any tiny part of the game without any restrictions is just a weak defeatist shit on the part of incompetent devs who can't do any better.

>>4925165
>It's extremely rare for Western games to be focused around fighting bosses
And that's a good thing. Most bosses in japanese games play all the same. You dodge their attacks until they show their weakspot. Then you hit them once and then you have to dodge again. After exactly three hits they die. That's fucking boring.

>>4925161
>It's like getting upset people are using cheats
False equivalence. Cheats are not part of a game. Manual saves are, therefore the player is supposed to use them. A good game must require the player to use all in-game tools in order to win AND manage to have a healthy amount of challenge.

>>4925173
>You don't know what you want consumer. Your too dumb to know what you want.

>>4925180
>cheats are not apart of the game.
What?
>to use all in game tools.
Upset the ones that have builds, weapons, etc that ruin all amount of challenge to begin with.

>>4925180
Why should a game be challenging?

>>4925164
Even if the options provided make your game too easy and boring? Games are supposed to have "rules", I don't see how giving your player the option to fuck with them makes your game better. Admit it, manual saving is poor design.

>>4925194
Even without save states, manual saving, or whatever some games literally are fucking broken and can be given no real challenge what so ever if you abuse certain aspects of it.
Even the almighty god hand can be destroyed if you understand the ai patterns and figure out what's the most optimal way to handle whatever crowd your given.

>>4925190
>What?
Don't pretend you didn't understand. By definition cheats are things the player isn't supposed to be using. If the player were supposed to use cheats they wouldn't be cheats, they would simply be game mechanics.
>Upset the ones that have builds, weapons, etc that ruin all amount of challenge to begin with.
What?

>>4925179
>hurr i'm simplifying things in a dumb way to sound smart

>>4925128
There are no action games that let you save anywhere while still having tough encounters. The only things resembling this are either games that reset enemy health and such after you load, effectively making saves into checkpoints, or games where you can trap yourself in an unwinnable scenario based on previous choices.

>>4925204
>There are no action games that let you save anywhere while still having tough encounters.
Pic related. Also blood and shadow warrior want to rip you a new one.
>The only things resembling this are either games that reset enemy health and such after you load, effectively making saves into checkpoints, or games where you can trap yourself in an unwinnable scenario based on previous choices.
That's what happens when you fucking save your game and then load your game m8. You would know this if you played any game that allowed you to fucking do this.

>>4925193
Because games are largely about winning or losing (unless you consider things like VN's as game, which I personally consider them their own media). If there's no challenge whatsoever then it's impossible to lose. Note that I'm not saying that every game should be super hard.

>>4925198
>cheat's arn't things the players are suppose to be using.
Save scumming isn't either. No game is designed around you savescumming but people still do it to purposely brake and ruin the games challenge.
>What?
In many many many many games you can easily brake the system via doing things your not suppose to like for example selling items in many games can get out of hand if they give you more cash then you spent buying them. The player can easily abuse that.

>>4925209
Nope they are all extremely easy thanks to the saves, Blood can be cleared by throwing dynamite around corners after learning enemy positions or just crouching and getting lucky with the AI. I deliberately had to limit myself to restarting levels if I die and then later playing a whole episode in one go to make the game challenging. You can't compare a save anywhere run of Blood to even easy games like Megaman because it's nowhere near as hard

The best way to deal with save scumming on PC is limiting the number of times you can save per level like pic related.

>>4925204
That's why action games are not RPGs, you fucking mongoloid. ARCADE TAILORED LEVEL DESIGN IS NOT AN ASPECT OF CRPGs. The whole goddamn point of the genre is giving the player a shitload of options and allowing him to screw up as well as game the system. If I'm playing Morrowind and rush to an OP item in the first 10 minutes, that's my fucking business. If I start Fallout with a weak-ass idiot who can't hold a gun, that's also my damn prerogative. The game allows me to do crazy shit as well as create a stupid unviable character. Making stupid ideas viable through exploits is one of the biggest enjoyments in these kinda games.

Fuck, it's like some people can't comprehend that games can exist without being "balanced" like a Castlevania level or some shit.

>>4925226
The post chain was talking about action rpg's, learn to read

>>4925228
He's clearly saying that every game needs to be balanced for checkpoints and designed like a classic platformer. It's the same guy who's been making the same points in every thread about RPGs, his arguments are always the same.

>>4925220
Next your going to say kazio mario is easy because you can abuse savestates. Difficulty is not magicly removed because you abuse a system. Cheating and abusing systems will make the game a walk in the park.

>>4925234
Don't think so since he made sure to point out that he was talking about action games in his greentext anime girl post and it was in the context of Severance, probably a different anon.

>>4925239
You can't use savestates in kaizo mario if you play it on a real console like you're supposed to.

>>4925245
No one fucking plays kaizo mario first time without save states. Even then you have to practice a fuck ton to be able to pull off half of that shit first go. Even then your inevitably going to fuck up.

>>4925256
How about you get gud instead? It's not as hard as 1CCing most arcarde games.

>>4925239
It does disappear for the most part, challenge isn't something inherent, most of it comes from tests of consistency. Kaizo mario and its ilk are actually interesting examples because they show that in order to keep any sort of difficulty when you have an overabudance of checkpoints or free saving is to make games about executing linear challenges with pixel precision, anything else becomes either trivial or purely knowledge based.

>>4925218
>Save scumming isn't either
Said who? It's an option the game gives you. It's as valid as using an item.
>In many many many many games you can easily brake the system
Well, that's just poor design. Two wrongs don't make a right.
>via doing things your not suppose
The player is supposed to be using the games' systems, even if they are breakable. You're trying to make "abusing the game mechanics" equivalent to "modifying the games' mechanics (cheating)" by claiming that the player isn't supposed to use both.

>>4925239
>>4925256
Uhh, it's the emulator that has a save state, not the game. Using save states in emulators is cheating because the original game wasn't intended to be played in that way.

>>4925267
Again, you show that you're clueless about western RPGs. If you remove the ability to "break the system", you'd barely have a game. JRPGs are designed with kid gloves so breaking them is considered a flaw ; most cRPGs give you the option to break shit and live with the consequences.

>>4925272
Kaizo mario literally was meant to be played on an emulator with savestates.

>>4920217
On a retro board, how can you even ask this question.

>>4925295
There have been decent retro CRPGs too like Might and Magic 3-5 and the SSI Goldbox games.

>>4925267
>Said who? It's an option the game gives you. It's as valid as using an item.
It's there to give you the freedom to save wherever you want whenever you want and experiment. Not make every decision and consequence meaningless.
>Well, that's just poor design. Two wrongs don't make a right.
I don't know a single game that has perfect design that doesn't allow you to brake it some way some how. It's impossible anon human ingenuity allows shit like that to happen no matter how well design any game is.
>The player is supposed to be using the games' systems, even if they are breakable.
Your not suppose to exploit glitches, errors, or anything that makes the challenge null.

>>4925116
>Redo the same 10-second loop until by randumb chance the planets align and lets your shitty ass pass
>Thinks having to learn to do things consistently is less challenging

git gud

>>4925285
>Again, you show that you're clueless about western RPGs.
I didn't claim anything about WRPGs or JRPGs, are you stupid? I was talking about manual saving, regardless of the genre of the game that uses it.
>If you remove the ability to "break the system", you'd barely have a game.
You're now using a different definition of "breakable system" than your previous post. You were using it as an equivalent for "system that makes the game too easy due to being poor designed", now you're using it as an equivalent for "system that gives the player freedom".
You're either dishonest or simply can't manage to use terms with consistency.

>>4925120
The genre was never good

>>4925301
Fallout, Baldur's Gate and Torment are retro. They are often considered the peak era of cRPGs. SNES/PS1 is often considered the peak for jrpgs. I have my own opinions but the debate about which kind of design you like more is legitimate. You can also think they're different enough that enjoying both at different moods is fine too, but insults and butthurt are more fun.

>>4925310
>Your not suppose to exploit glitches, errors, or anything that makes the challenge null.
I'd say that glitches and the like are regular game mechanics, even if the developer didn't intend them to be in the game.

When I want my tastes to be challenged by Americans who obviously grew up worshipping Chrono Trigger and FF7, I remain on /vr/. When I want to be challenged by PC elitists who worship blobbers and Troika/Obsidian, I go to RPGCodex. None of them really align with my favorite type of games, but the debates are always amusing.

>>4925320
>peak era of CRPGs
>worst combat system of all time shared by the three games

>>4925173
>>4925204
>>4925220
>>4925228
>>4925240
>>4925260
Why were these posts deleted?

>>4925373
Lol, Fallout's combat is superior to every muh classic jrpg.

What are some legitimately good JRPGs? I haven't explored the genre that much, since I'm more of a WRPG fan, Fallout 1 & 2, Baldur's Gate, VtMB, Witcher 1, Gothic 2, Deus Ex, etc.

I enjoyed the original Final Fantasy quite a bit, but the second one seemed way more boring to me. I'd like something with more interesting characters though, and preferably one where I don't want to punch the MC in the face.

>>4925436
Play the saga series. Probably one of the best Jrpg out there. I like FFVI story.

>>4925425
>wait 3 minutes until every NPC on the map makes his move while printing a hilarious dad joke on the screen

>>4925156
>A CRPG used to mean any game that follows the tradition of Wizardry, but that fundamentally changed in the mid-90s. Nowada
>ys, the tradition that defines a cRPG is basically Fallout 1. Choice and consequence, multiple viable builds, freedom to explore, meaningful dialogue options - these are what everyone expects in a cRPG, yet they barely even existed in early blobbers.
that is not what crpg means

>>4925445
It seems a bit like a kitchen sink setting, is that something that you notice or is it done well? I really dislike it when games just throw in stuff that seems "cool" without regard for internal consistency.

>>4925436

Skies of Arcadia is pretty light-hearted with good characterization, and an interesting world.

It's a good place to start because it has every single jRPG stereotype thrown into it except for the emo characters (well, actually one of the main bad guys is emo, but that's why he's a bad guy, so you fight him)

>>4925475
I don't want to play a game full of stereotypes however. If someone was new to WRPGs I wouldn't recommend a game about Arthurian fantasy mixed with Tolkien, for the same reason.

>>4925482

First of all, I would, because it's representative of the genre.

Second of all, Skies is waaaay more jRPG shit blended together than two sources like in your example. It is literally every example of fun jRPG nonsense thrown out as casually as possible with none of the retarded belts and zipper emo bullshit that quickly dominated jRPGs after that.

>>4925436
>What are some legitimately good JRPGs?
I am autism-tier WRPGfag and these are the JRPGs that have appealed to me:
>Uncharted Waters 2
>all the first person crawlers From Soft made
>brigandine is okay
...And that's pretty much it, which is really saying something considered I've played all the JRPGs that usually get regurgitated around here.
>>4925445
>Play the saga series
Those games are legitimately terrible.

>>4925468
That's a very common thing in JRPG anon, but I believe saga and Ys won't bother you too much.

>>4925468
>I really dislike it when games just throw in stuff that seems "cool"
Like the random sci-fi elements in the Wizardry, Ultima and Might&Magic games?

>>4925524
>random
>integral to the story and setting

>>4925515

From Software's games aren't jRPGs. They're ARPGs, which predate jRPGs. jRPGs are descended from FF and DQ.

>>4925543
JRPGs are Japanese RPGs, retard.

>>4925524
Yes

>>4925498
Skies is a bad game to start with because one, its a bad game, and two, it references RPG tropes which can't be fully appreciated without having knowledge of the genre. It's like telling someone new to comics to start with Planetary.

If I was going to recommend a WRPG I would recommend Fallout 1, because it's simple, can be beaten in 4 hours, and is a good introductory course to WRPG mechanics while still maintaining a high level of quality. And also, once you git gud at WRPGs you can go play Wasteland and realize how much better than Fallout it is. Now what is the JRPG version of that?

>>4925545

Nope, they're games made in the image of FF and DQ. Games like King's Field are not informed by Final Fantasy, it's informed by other ARPGs made at about that time.

>>4925543
>From Software's games aren't jRPGs.
well i guess that's why they don't suck

>>4925436
Give Earthbound a try, it eschews the weeby fantasy crap of the standard JRPG

>>4925556
>they're games made in the image of FF and DQ
so they're just a retarded mish-mash of wizardry 1-3 and ultima 1-3 dumbed down and remade over and over, gotcha

>>4925553

Not only is it a good game, but there is nothing in Skies that is difficult to understand. It's a bit funny that you think anything in the game is esoteric. Skies is literally the pop culture tour de force of jRPGs. It's representative of jRPGs for reasons.

>>4925559
>Give Earthbound a try, it eschews the weeby fantasy crap of the standard JRPG
yeah, but it does quirky crap instead which is even worse

>>4925564

It's fine if you think that, but don't call King's Field a jRPG.

>>4925543
>>4925556
>IDZ NOD A JABANESE ROLE PLEYIN GAEM IF IDS NOD TURD BASED

>>4920232
the way how i see it is that with wrpgs you know what the main story is but you also make your story along the way. who you encounter and help you is completely up to you and the experiences youll have are entirely unique. it's almost like those choose your adventure type of books.there is no character development because youre self-inserting into the character, hence why you have more robust character dialogue options to choose from and even get to create unique builds with said character to fir your playstyle. jrpgs are like glorified animes, and thats not a bad thing. but you can tell one allows you to craft a more gratifying adventure.

you can see jrpgs are inspired by wrpgs but by the end of the day theyre all set in stone

>>4925571
King's Field is most definitely Japanese RPG, or JRPG.

>>4925565
>but there is nothing in Skies that is difficult to understand
that's not what i said
>Skies is literally the pop culture tour de force
that's literally what i just said

>>4925571
>It's fine if you think that
It's not about what I think. That is what they factually are if we are to go by your definition. If this is the case, we should cease all discussion of JRPGs indefinitely because they will always be so terrible that not a single one is worth discussing.

>>4925579

Not the definition of a jRPG.

Names aren't definitions, and anyone can make a jRPG, Japanese dev or no. jRPG as a genre is defined and informed by FF and DQ. It's very likely that something like King's Field would exist if FF and DQ didn't. It's very unlikely that Chrono Trigger would exist if those games didn't.

>>4925590

Again, it's fine if you think that, but don't call King's Field a jRPG.

>>4925543
>jRPGs are descended from FF and DQ
But Uncharted Waters and Brigandine are JRPGs even though they have nothing to do with those games? Okay lol

>>4925606

I've actually never played either of those. They don't look like jRPGs, you're right, but since I've never played them I'm just ignoring that.

>>4925553
Dragon Quest V. Simple hero's journey story, classic JRPG mechanics, choose your waifu, have kids who then join your party, train monsters as allies.

>>4925565
Skies is a shit game and it's not a representative of the genre at all. Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, specifically DQ are the representatives of JRPGs as a whole.

>>4925602
>Not the definition of a jRPG

There's no official definition. Stop talking out of your ass. Anyone is free to interpret the term as they want. You're pretty much saying the majority of Japanese RPGs these days aren't JRPGs anymore since they stopped following the archaic turn based shit long ago.

>>4925570
it's supposed to be a parody of the genre, the weird shit is far more tolerable to me

>>4925610
>I've actually never played either of those.
Well, you have a small frame of reference and your taste is shit, then. Keep your opinions to yourself. You don't know what a JRPG is, kiddo.

>>4925617
>There's no official definition.

Yes there is, when someone wants a jRPG, they're asking for something like Final Fantasy or directly related.

>Anyone is free to interpret the term as they want.
Wrong, language and labels specifically are not yours to interpret, they explicitly exist so that a speaker can say them and unequivocally explain a class of something that he's talking about to a group, meaning it is strictly the group's definition.

>You're pretty much saying the majority of Japanese RPGs these days aren't JRPGs anymore since they stopped following the archaic turn based shit long ago.
Also wrong, genres can evolve, but jRPGs actually haven't evolved much. For instance adding live movement mechanics means very little when you still specifically build the game so that hand-eye coordination and reactions aren't required, just like jRPGs in the 80s did. What's important is that modern jRPGs do in fact trace their gameplay conventions back to FF and DQ. People who like the genre want those conventions when they ask for that genre.

>>4925602
>Not the definition of a jRPG.
According to whom?

>>4925650
Final Fantasy doesn't have the archaic turn based combat system since 12 years ago. Is it not a JRPG series anymore?

>>4925650
>Wrong, language and labels specifically are not yours to interpret
Well they are not yours either. Is Ys series 'informed by' FF or DQ?

I hate those debates because everyone assumes all WRPG's are like Fallout (like if half of the genre wasn't repetitive blobbers and diablo-clones), and all JRPG's are like FFVII (because anything that's not like FFVII it can't be a JRPG). It's like seeing two kids who had played like four games in all his life throwing shit at each other.

Meanwhile you could see people like Chris Avellone praising Chrono Trigger as one of his favourite games ever.

>>4925672

Who says turn based is necessary for a jRPG? I just said jRPGs can evolve, the fact that it took 11 games (the MMOs don't count) to make a change usually means it's not a genre defying change.

What is crucial is that FFXII can't really exist without earlier jRPGs. It's too complex of a game with too many mechanics to have been made on a first try.

>>4925674
I'd say early Ys is its own thing. You know there were games with jumping around the same time as Pitfall, right? Pitfall is still the game that defined platformers for the most part.

>>4920217
this op pic amuses me because blue JRPG guy looks exactly how I used to draw as a kid

>>4925696
>people like Chris Avellone

>>4925650
>>There's no official definition.
>Yes there is
But then the debate could be settled by posting it.
Oh, but would you look at that. You neglected to do that. However, I am sure you can rectify that mistake.
And you will also easily be able to name the authority that phrased the "official definition".

>>4925713
If you played his games this picture is redundant.

>>4925698
Ys is a staple ARPG though, point of the picture is that it doesn't stop people calling it an JRPG, because it also you know a Japanese RPG.

>>4925720

The official definition is the definition in use by the people saying it, and when they do that they are asking for games in the image of FF and DQ. They are not asking for King's Field. Furthermore, trying to define jRPGs as "RPGs made in Japan" is stupid because an identical game can be made outside of Japan (this is already happening with cell phone games).

Because you don't understand that name != definition is not an excuse to try to redefine what jRPGs are, you're just misusing a label. If the name of the genre was an actual definition then just any game is just whatever genre you care to put it in, because virtually every game has puzzles, any game with a timer and an end point is racing game, etc.

>>4925723

>>4925737
Reminder that RPG is just an arbitrary sub-genre of strategy and the term JRPG is meaningless. People just use it to insulate themselves from criticism because those games wouldn't hold up very well when compared to the rest of the strategy genre.

>>4925737
>The official definition is the definition in use by the people saying it

Which goes against what YOU are saying, because plenty of people consider ARPG series like Ys and Kingdom Hearts JRPGs.

>>4925737
>The official definition is the definition in use by the people saying it
And how does that lead to one unique unambiguous definition?
>Because you don't understand that name != definition is not an excuse to try to redefine what jRPGs are, you're just misusing a label.
No anon, I just think the word "official" does not mean what you think it means. Whatever business you had with that other anon about the actual meaning of JRPG, it's not my business and you were talking to somebody else before.

>>4925739
Why can't Japanese games be this tasteful?

>>4925750

KH feels more like its based on games like the Tales series, which is itself a blending of ARPG and jRPG. It might actually be possible to consider it both, or just always consider it a blend.

Ys being called a jRPG is like calling any Zelda other than Zelda 2 a jRPG. It's a misnomer.

>>4925739
>chris acknowledging the false dichotomy of democrat/republican and the only way to fix America is by going full natsoc

based

>>4925774
>WRPGfags are fascists
makes sense

>>4925737
>>4925770
Think a little why do people put the "J" and "W" there. It's to distinguish themselves regionally, not based on genre. Japanese ARPGs are still pretty distinct from Western ARPGs. Secret of Mana isn't anything like Diablo. You could still use "JRPG" and "WRPG" for them based on those grounds

>>4925774
sieg heil my brudda

i'm ready to gas some kikes and faggots and niggers

With WRPGs, I spend every second playing them wishing I was just playing a tabletop RPG instead.

BY THE NINE DIVINES STAY ON THE ROAD
EUURGGGHHHH

>>4920263
but morrowind is on computer

>>4925696
>Meanwhile you could see people like Chris Avellone praising Chrono Trigger as one of his favourite games ever.

I don't know who that is but it sounds like he has shit taste if Chrono Trigger is his favorite game of all time. It's not a bad game, but it's certainly not the best of all time.

>>4927058
I agree, it was just an example of how a WRPG developer can enjoy JRPG while fans just throw shit at each other for decades.

>>4920263
Honestly I haven't used the term "CRPG" in a long time, and really only ever used it during the 90s to distinguish JRPGs from WRPGs during a time when the vast majority of JRPGs were on consoles and the vast majority of WRPGs were on PC.

>>4923010
How come every one of these games looks shitty? How come western developers never learned to make games look good?

>>4927630
>How come every one of these games looks shitty?
yeah why cant they be aesthetic like japan, thats what really matters in a game

>>4927630
The worlds of WRPGs all look generic and uninspired. You have to admit it. JRPG settings look more unique and visually appealing.

>>4927954
Meant to quote: >>4927821

>>4927954
While I don't care for JRPGs beyond Mother I will agree that they have far more interesting settings than most WRPGs

>>4927954
You have to turn your brain off to stop thinking about certain aspects of jrpg like why are there faggots with bows and swords running around when guns exist?

>>4927630
None of those games have bad aesthetics. All of them look good just with a different style from the average JRPG.

>>4928003
Not really. People were still using swords and shit when guns were first invented. I can just rationalize the bladed weapons being very advanced as well and guns not outclassing them completely.

>muh turn based FF-style combat is bad
>it's too easy and grindy
>meanwhile, WRPGfags will defend the gameplay of pic related and hail it as the best game ever

Not saying it's a bad game, but the gameplay is absolutely terrible. Made me wish there was an option to just skip combat and get to the reading since it's not too far off from being a VN.

>>4928071
Well honestly who the fuck plays any of these games for the gameplay? At their absolute best they are just strategy games for dummies who can't into strategy and prefer watching stats grow instead

>>4928003
>why are there faggots with bows and swords running around when guns exist?

Yeah, how silly.

>>4928071
This was inspired by FFVII according to the developers.

>Made me wish there was an option to just skip combat

But there is, there's only three obligatory combats in the whole game, and one is the zombie at the beginning.

>>4928106
Being able to walk by things isn't really obvious, especially if you've played other IE games where enemies will chase you to the ends of the region.

>>4928109
You don't even need to move the whole party, you can go with Anna to the end of any level and basically skip anything you don't want to deal with.

>>4927954
JRPGs all just seem to have a fairy tale aesthetic to me. Its like if a little kid tried to imagine something they thought was really cool and an adult drew it for them.

>>4928106
>This was inspired by FFVII according to the developers.
No, just the attack cutscenes. Did you just google the game and not actually play it?

>>4928093
What are SRPGs

>>4928007
>None of those games have bad aesthetics.

When people say CRPGs they almost invariably mean a small number of late 90s hits like Fallout, TES and BG. Conveniently forgetting a shitton of earlier Western RPGs like Gold Box games or early M&Ms that are even more simplistic and grindy than DQ clones. And for every BG and Fallout I can name a JRPG that breaks the standard mold.

Funny how JRPG fans have to answer for every crappy DQ clone while CRPG people get to conveniently ignore mountains of D&D shovelware.

>>4928406
>Conveniently forgetting a shitton of earlier Western RPGs like Gold Box games or early M&Ms that are even more simplistic and grindy than DQ clones
Or ya know...
>Wasteland
>Ultima 4 and 5
>Wizardry 6 and 7
>Dark Sun: Shattered Lands
>Dungeon Master
>Darklands
>Betrayal At Krondor
>Realms of Arkania 1 and 2

All pre-95. And every single one of these is better than any JRPG. There are NO good JRPGs. You just don't understand how bad they are.

>>4928484
>There are NO good JRPGs. You just don't understand how bad they are.
Your a retard

>>4928484
>And every single one of these is better than any JRPG
Nice opinion.

wrpgs are generally really fucking boring, even moreso than jrpgs which is an accomplishment in an of itself

>>4928534
>Nice opinion.
But its not an opinion. RPGs are a sub-genre of strategy, a genre that relies on decision making to implement gameplay, something we can easily measure the complexity of, and every single JRPG falls way short. We can objectively say that there are no JRPGs with good RPG gameplay.

>>4928501
It's okay, make yourself some warm tea with honey and think it over.

>>4928098
M8 most Jrpg don't take place in that era and honestly guns from that era were extremely inaccurate and we were slowly but surely changing our weaponry when we notice gunpowder was 10x lethal than swords and bows.

>>4928019
>People were still using swords and shit when guns were first invented
The gunpowder weaponry slowly but slowly became the norm noticing that the deadliness, training, and effectiveness of that weapon could not be matched by swords and shit.
>I can just rationalize the bladed weapons being very advanced as well and guns not outclassing them completely
This type of mentality would get you laughed off /k/ let alone historians for obvious reason i'm not going to go into.

>>4925120
>I think the golden age of crpg's has long since passed.
There's a bunch of super autistic niche developers that will keep them alive for decades to come. (sure as shit not larian, fuck those guys) JRPGs on the other hand are all becoming gachashit at an alarming rate.

>>4928546
>a genre that relies on decision making to implement gameplay
So what you are saying is that there is a shitton of good JRPGs, FFV, SMT and the entire SaGa series to begin with. Unless you're using some epic sophistry about how only D&D derivatives can be RPGs in which case you can fuck off.

>>4928741
>So what you are saying is that there is a shitton of good JRPGs, FFV, SMT and the entire SaGa series to begin with
Those games do not have good decision making, though.

>>4920217
western rpgs are infodump-filled poorly-written-tolkien-fanfiction labyrinthine-ui clusterfucks by and large. jrpgs tend towards more concise writing and the UI was basically designed from the beginning to be streamlined from the western equivalents.

>>4921101
>name one
dragon force

>>4921361
final fantasy games date themselves hard. dragon quest is a much more timeless series to get into imo. best ones are 3, 5, 7, and 8. out of that bunch i'd say play 5. also active time battle sucks.

>>4921552
pales in comparison to gunparade march's complexity

playing a wrpg feels like doing my taxes.

>>4928378
Strategy games for dummies, with needless progression systems dumbing down the strategy aspect

>>4928821
>too dumb to figure out simple UI or simply read the manual
Yeah I can see why you would prefer JRPG's

all rpgs are for dummies.interactive story books.

harry potter for ps2 is the best rpg

>>4928546
JRPGs aren't just about gameplay. They're experiences. Sorry you have shit taste

>>4929053
So like Gone Home and Uncharted? Wonderful.

>>4929059
>gone home
Never heard of it
>uncharted
Story seemed somewhat interesting to me but I don't like third person cover-based shooters so I dropped it

>>4929064
You should check out Gone Home it'll be right up your alley. It's very gay and light on gameplay. I can understand how Uncharted is a bit too skill based for you though.

>>4929067
>this meme again
You're really not doing yourself any favors

>>4929069
Which meme? You're already admitting that you don't play for gameplay so what other conclusion am I meant to draw from your post?

>>4928741
They are all simplistic with pre combat planning being the only aspect that matters because the have no combat depth. SMT only gets any points because it forces you to switch your party constantly, otherwise the mechanics would be too shallow due to being easily broken.

>>4929078
>they have no combat depth
Like, in comparison to Fallout, lol?

>>4929084
Yes actually, even AP management is less braindead than repeating a simple debuff-attack-heal loop in a JRPG. But that's besides the point, Fallout has a lot of depth elsewhere, it's not a game about combat but a game about nonlinear exploration. JRPG's are extremely linear and shallow on that end too, there are 80's WRPG's which are more advanced.

>>4929087
Yes actually, even AP management is less braindead than repeating a simple debuff-attack-heal loop in a JRPG
You're fucking delusional.

>it's not a game about combat but a game about nonlinear exploration
>walking around and reading is a gameplay
Might as well read a VN.

>>4929093
>Might as well read a VN.
That's rich coming from a JRPG loving queer. Remind me when's the last time the games let you skip almost all dialogue in the game?

>>4929102
Fallout is definitely more VN-like game than majority of JRPGs, what's your problem?

>>4929106
Good job avoiding the question retard, Fallout lets you avoid virtually all dialogue in the game if you wish and focus purely on gameplay. JRPG's force you to sit through their dull teen soap operas no matter what. Also funnily enough those dialogues are below VN tier because they give you no agency what so ever

There are 2 kinds of JRPG players

You have the ones that sincerely enjoy grinding stats and drops for hours on end like dull drooling drones. There is something legitimately wrong with these people, they're also usually NEETs with far too much free time on their hands which they don't value.

Then you have the JRPG players who are ashamed of playing a brain dead genre designed for the first group and the japanese, yet are a bit too thick for wrpg's and actual strategy games. So they advocate no grinding, challenge runs and other shit and act like those who don't do it are "not playing the games right". Many that fall into this group eventually leave the genre to play something better, realizing its flaws.

In comparison WRPG fans are much more sane and knowledgeable about their games, in addition to JRPG's actually as >>4925637 points out

>>4929093
>walking around and reading is gameplay

It's so obvious you're a fucking consolefag, holy shit. Ever played a point'n'click adventure in your life? Nothing wrong with games that lack combat, some people like that stuff.

>>4929120
>So they advocate no grinding, challenge runs and other shit and act like those who don't do it are "not playing the games right"
Reminds me of those mentally ill who play shumps for 1cc.

>>4929121
>point'n'click adventure
VNs are pretty much the same shit, only without a garbage "gameplay" on the side most of the time.
The point is some retards hail one of those (Fallout) as the best RPG and simultaneously shit on games with actually decent design. (FFV, SaGa)

>>4929165
Notice how you removed SMT from the equation because you got btfo already

>>4929161
The latter group isn't the one that's mentally ill. They suffer from cognitive dissonance and irrational attachment to the genre, but they aren't lost causes like the first group

>>4925126
>nothing in common with Western games beyond having a medieval fantasy setting

It's far more WRPG like than most JRPGs though. If anything Dark Souls comes closest to being an ideal hybrid between western and eastern approaches to gameplay.

You make meaningful choices at character creation and beyond, which can significantly influence your playthrough, but at the same time you aren't forced into a given role or playstyle because of this and can deliberately choose to change your equipment and stats once you get your bearings if you regret anything.

You can make meaningful choices, including being able to kill virtually any NPC, but at the same time because there are no 'filler' NPCs everyone is meaningful and there's hence no need for the shitty morality systems that WRPGs typically have since the consequences of killing someone are far more unique and natural.

>>4929176
There is no need for a morality system because the game doesn't have a proper world in it, just a series of tiny, arcadey, lifeless levels sloppily connected to one another by the game changing the lighting

>>4920234
based autist

>>4929169
>Everyone who replies to me is the same person
Fallout fans are redditors, who would have guessed?

>>4929186
>proper world
The one where you can simulate being intimate with a man and reload when your attempts of seducing him go wrong?

>>4929205
My bad, you just all seem so alike due to having woefully underdeveloped tastes. But you can knock FF5 out too because the game lacks any tactics during combat, it's literally just getthe right abilities and win the game

>>4929209
If that's what you weebs like then sure

>>4929214
>pretending that it's not an exlusive WRPG feature

>>4929213
>underdeveloped tastes
Says the fan of Fallout lmao.

It's amazing just how egotistical people are here about a genre.

Fans of western made rpgs players being armchair philosophers who somehow think they understand the world by playing their games while fans of Japanese rpgs often eat up the most troupe ridden bland games just because of cardboard characters while anything remotely nontypical is forgotten.

The obvious answer is that like most genres most of both western and eastern rpgs are shit. The communities come down to pretentious fucks who don't allow fun or normalfags in denial because the the thing tbey eat up is anime.

>>4929217
>what is Final Fantasy 7

>>4929220
This desu

>>4929165
No, they're not the same shit, you huge retard. Tell me how The Secret of Monkey Island or Gabriel Knight is totally like a VN, please. Point and clicks involve doing detective work and exploring the locations, and dialogues are absolutely part of the gameplay since they give you clues.

And theyre also great games, not that a tasteless plebeian weeb could acknowledge it.

>>4929176
>You can make meaningful choices, including being able to kill virtually any NPC, but at the same time because there are no 'filler' NPCs everyone is meaningful and there's hence no need for the shitty morality systems that WRPGs typically have since the consequences of killing someone are far more unique and natural.

The morality system is there mostly for flavor. In some WRPGs, you can still can kill NPCs (that are part of the story) as a good guy and suffer meaningful consequences (e.g. missing info on what to do next, losing important services, etc.)

>>4929248
This is true, you will suffer the same consequences in any WRPG as you do in DS and more. JRPGfags should play more games

>>4929227
Not to mention Western point-and-click adventures don't need to resort to fan service to keep players interested.

>>4920462
There are still plenty of modern wrpg’s that aren’t doing that. Skyrim, nufallout and the like are barely rpg’s as is.

>>4929176
>It's far more WRPG like than most JRPGs though
But it's far more like other Japanese-style games that aren't RPGs than WRPGs, though. (Zelda, Castlevania, Metroid, Bushido Blade, etc)

>>4920498
I mean I know this isn't what you're talking about, but Octopath has theiving/iterrogation/seduction mechanics outaide of battle.

They're pretty damn simple though

>>4921383
If you're looking for story/characters/atmosphere Tactics is fucking incredible

>>4928595
>when we notice gunpowder was 10x lethal than swords and bows.

But it wasn't, it took centuries to be like that. Guns were adopted because any idiot could use a gun after a week of practice, while bows or swords needed to be mastered.

>>4929848
That's also true but doesn't discount my point in the slightest. The game does employ many things that are far more common in WRPGs than JRPGs.

>>4929176
>>4929848
Dark Souls is a Japanese Action RPG. Just like Tales, Kingdom Hearts, Monster Hunter, Dragon's Dogma, Xenoblade, etc. Nothing western about it at all. The core part of the game (boss fights) is very Japanese. Western games are never focused around fighting bosses.

jarpigs

>>4930049
Your down playing the significance of weaponry. It flat out was more effective at removing infantry then pretty much any weaponry since. In combat range always beats experience, reflexes, etc.

>>4930343
Not to mention that it's an actual video game that doesn't incorporate such an anti-game retardation like saving anywhere you want feature - something that the West can't avoid to use because of the lack of discipline in game design.

>>4930443
Why is saving freely "anti-game"?

>>4930176
What things.

>>4930529
The only real common aspects is the character creator and being able to kill NPCs, but those aren't really major things. The setting/visuals might look like generic medieval WRPG shit at the surface, but it's actually pretty unique when you take a closer look, akin to most JRPG settings.

>>4930452
Because it allows 'winning' without actually getting any better by simply retrying things without any restrictions, and kills any risk and reward mechanics. Imagine yourself a game of chess where you can redo any losing move, how's that fun?

>>4930557
This is why I hate PC speedruns, they allow you to F5/F8 during runs whenever you fuck up a hard trick.

>>4930557
Chess is a mp game. You can't quick save or reload in mp. In a singleplayer game the player should be allowed to redo any action IF he wants to. If he doesn't then that's his prerogative. You shouldn't limit the players choice via cutting out something that's integral to the enjoyment of many.

>>4928759
All of then have good decision making that impacts gameplay unless only multiple dialogue options and killing NPCs amount to decision making (even if that barely changes the outcomes, like in most WRPGs)

>>4930725
>Chess is a mp game

You can play vs an AI which is the same thing. In single player games it's you vs an AI.

>In a singleplayer game the player should be allowed to redo any action IF he wants to

Instantly and at any time? You can't say that doesn't remove any kind of challenge the game might've had.

>>4931016
>You can play vs AI
In which case many many many cpu matches you can undo certain moves and most engines even allow it. It doesn't really matter because you can of course never use the undo button if you don't want to.
>Instantly and any time? You can't say that remove any kind of challenge the game might've had.
If you abuse that power of course it will remove the challenge. It doesn't matter anyways because most games don't run on a life system and most games will just send you back to the last checkpoint.
Which can range from the last loading zone to fucking half the level back. Which just makes you have to play more for losing which isn't much of a punishment to begin with. It's just more tedious. Checkpoints don't make the game suddenly harder it just means you have to play more of it.
If you died to a pit down below you in all likely hoods won't fall for it again unless you have learning disabilities. The only difference is now you have to play all the way back to the last checkpoint.

>>4930443
Not unique to Japanese games and not always a bad feature. Games like M&M don't allow you save anywhere except at inns. Wizardry's forced saving at every step neutralizes the benefit of save scumming.

Dark Souls is touted as some super difficult game, but it allows you to save scum. Permadeath is something JRPGs avoid because they don't know how to design games that are challenging and playable without save scumming.

>>4931419
>Not unique to Japanese games
Yeah, for every 1000 savescumming Western games there's 1 Japanese that does that. It's very important fact that changes everything!

>Dark Souls is touted as some super difficult game, but it allows you to save scum.
Are you retarded? It uses a checkpoint system.

>they don't know how to design games that are challenging and playable without save scumming.
Is it basically a NO U? Majority of JRPGs use a checkpoint system, while WRPVNs allows you to save anywhere you want, games with permadeatrh are in minority on both sides and aren't related to this discussion at all.

>JRPGs
>WRPGs

You goddamn morons aren't even using the correct terms, they should be called Console RPGs (CRPGs) and Computer RPGs (CRPGs) respectively. Also anyone can clearly see that CRPGS are far superior compared to CRPGs.

>>4929220
You realize Japan making Wiz 1-3 over and over is proof that they suck shit, right? Wiz didn't even get good until 6.

>>4930725
>In a singleplayer game the player should be allowed to redo any action IF he wants to.
I knew PCfats hate real games, but holy shit!

>>4931646
BRB playing the CRPG Legion Saga 2.

>>4931702
What gets me is that they don't even seem to understand the basic issue. If a game has specific checkpoints, then that means that there are well defined sections that are designed to be completed in one go. Without this, there's no well defined challenge at all and you're basically playing pretend by not abusing the fuck out of quicksave at every opportunity and holding back. It's like saying "you don't have to use healing items all the time", in which case, when am I 'supposed' to use them?

>>4931819
>reading a book
>it's not divided into chapters
>what the fuck, I have to decide for myself when to stop reading
>fucking unbalanced bullshit

>>4931048
This is how I know you savescum the shit out of everything, the concepts of consistency and execution are alien to you because you de-emphasize if not outright remove them from your play by spamming saves and reloading

>>4931838
Congrats you've found a comparison that does not work on a single level, quite an achievement since even food analogies have SOME validity to them

>>4931627

Restarting from a checkpoint is still save scumming. Checkpoints were created due to hardware and design limitations of consoles (saving is slow). Often times the check points are in convenient places, like right before a boss battle. You basically get unlimited retries. Computer JRPGs allow you to save at any point.

>>4931916
Just restarting from a checkpoint isn't save scumming even if it's convenient, restarting at a checkpoint to get good rng or something is but it either comes at a great cost of repeating chunks of the game thus is disincentivized or it's the result of bad design. How and why checkpoints were created is also irrelevant not sure why you're even bringing that up unless you think that them being influenced by hardware limitations makes them invalid or bad in any way

>>4931843
I don't. I use to as a child but now I rarley save unless I want to shut off a game. Which is convenient since if I were playing a game from a checkpoint i'd have to fucking start from the last checkpoint instead of just being able to save when I want to meaning I can exit that game leave the house for a bit come back and start playing again.
People also use it as a means to practice certain techniques and parts of a game in speedrunning or whatever without having to go back to the last checkpoint.
It's never fun to be under the whim of a developer that might intentionally start putting checkpoints further across from one another or just be too lazy to balance the amount of checkpoints there are from the last one. Just so then idiots who savescum all the time have a "Challenge".

>>4931646
>CRPGS are far superior compared to CRPGs

I don't understand.

>>4931819
>If a game has specific checkpoints, then that means that there are well defined sections that are designed to be completed in one go.
Upset games with checkpoints that literally are hours away from one another.
>Without this, there's no well defined challenge at all.
Alot of games with checkpoints have sporadic checkpoint areas throughout the entirety of the campaign. Meaning that the devs usually either are poor at balancing when YOU get to save your game.
Again dieing isn't much of a consequence anyways one just means that you have to replay that area again and honestly you shouldn't make the same mistakes again whether you had a checkpoint 2 seconds ago or 5 minutes ago.
The player challenge always comes down to learning from there mistakes and trying again not for having to start over again from the last time the devs saved your game.
> basically playing pretend by not abusing the fuck out of quicksave at every opportunity and holding back.
I don't abuse glitches and other ai problems all the time to give myself a challenge. Many bosses in japanese and western game have some sort of problem that you can abuse. Hell a lot of levels can be abused using sed cheat. It's a mechanic designed to allow the player to control when he saves or not. Most people who play through decently challenged games don't save scum every 5 seconds and sometimes save there game infrequently.
Alot of games have checkpoints and the ability to save whenever however where ever since hell in case you forgot to save were still not going to make you leg from all the way back to an hour of playtime.
Hell I oppose alot of challenges on myself when I play arcade games via just limiting myself from 3cc or 1cc if i'm really good at that game.
>It's like saying "you don't have to use healing items all the time", in which case, when am I 'supposed' to use them?
That's a terrible fucking anology. Should be obvious why. I'm running out of characters so i'll let you think this through.

>>4932357
I can sympathize with this pov to an extent and it does make sense from the perspective of a single player however as any kind of design standard it's short sighted and makes the assumption that both players and developers will share your view which isn't true. Players are not only stupid but they're also incredibly lazy which is why for example the idea of balancing singleplayer games is important as players will go with degenerate strategies at the expense of their own fun and thus it's the duty of the developers to ensue that these things are minimized. But let's say you don't care about other players and only your own fun, the problem here is that games that allow for constant saving will be designed around constant saving, making low or no saving playstyles needlessly tedious and/or unfair (such as with extreme RNG), along with limiting developer options if they want to make a challenging game as the challenge will have to come entirely from moment-to-moment gameplay. The good thing is that games developed around checkpoints or lack thereof can eventually be played with free saving thanks to save states, removing any associated flaws.

>>4930557

In a properly skill-based game, retrying is just a form of practice. Denying the player the ability to practice a section is just an unfair limitation.

>>4932597
Your a good man and I must say I enjoy having convo with you on this anonymous board. I wish I can buy you some drinks.
I have that your stance is respectable one but you gotta understand that most players will most definitely do shit the devs would never see coming. Take ultima online for example. The devs created an eocology system to make players want to kill carnivore more and herbivorous less. They unfortunately were to hind sighted to not know that instead the players literally will kill everything and anything that was an animal. They wern't expecting this and they even encouraged players to attack the carnivores.
It's not the devs responsibilities to make sure the players are not exploiting something. It's going to happen no matter what you do. In single player experience most devs will make the game tailored for whatever the player wants it to be. If the player wants to have an easy time whats stopping him from just turning on easy and breezing through the game?
Now if the player wants a real challenge he can always crank the difficulty up and in some cases devs install systems to make the game more challenging like an iron man mode and fan pokemon games having nuzlocke mode on the start.
Giving the player options and features is always more important then giving him a challenging experience because honestly if the player wants challenge they'll always oppose a challenge themselves. Like beating the game with only white mages or only using 1 stacks in HOMM 3 with 7 impossible opponents.

>>4932628
>In a properly skill-based game, retrying is just a form of practice.
Games that require such a practice don't have save system at all, though.

>>4932657
This. Saving at all is for casuals.

>>4932657
>>4932672
Simpleminded binary-thinking fools.

>>4932630
Players will look for and usually find cheese no matter what especially in games that aim to be complex, however that is not a reason to throw balance out the window. It very much is and always has been the dev's responsibility to minimize such things, that's what makes up the bulk of game design. Otherwise you're entering "make your own fun" territory, where games become closer to toys - collections of mechanics with no cohesion. You can turn difficulty up and do self imposed challenges, but these only go so far. You said you like getting 1cc's, but try doing something equivalent in a modern action game and you'll start noticing the problems with this mentality. A game lasting several hours might have been good on your normal playthrough, but repeating 5 hour runs in one go will get tiresome very quickly. Cutscenes will become annoying, so will load times, so will downtime. A lack of things such as scoring systems will make easy segments boring as there will be no reason to optimize or take risks. An overabundance of exploits will heavily encourage you to play in a safe manner especially combined with the length. There are just so many things that can get in the way of such a playstyle that I can't list them all. Games need a focus which includes an expected playstyle the players are "forced" into either with clear cut rewards/punishment in the form of death/winning or more subtle incentives. Players who like self-imposed challenge runs are rare to begin with, and everyone has very different limits of how arbitrary a challenge can be before they feel like it's a waste of time even if it's challenging.

>>4920217
cRPGs.

JRPGs are shit. Dark Souls is not a JRPG. "JRPG" has long since stopped meaning "Japanese-made RPG" to become "Japanese-style RPG", denoting games like Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, and more.

Dark Souls doesn't fit into this. Nothing FromSoftware makes does, really, which is why their games are so good: they are Japanese-made RPGs with none of the shit that is usually found in Japanese-made RPGs.

An easy way to spot a JRPG is awful writing, stereotypical characters, stupid plots, and a lot of anime tropes.