/vr/ - Retro Games

Macs really aren't gaming machines unless you like eduware.

>>4889204
So you're looking for one physical book that has everything you need to collect/mod/code for a decode of systems you know little about? No.

>>4889204
No. I could spoonfeed you but I won't.

>>4889275
yes

>>4889263
I like eduware

>>4889343
Spoonfeed me a physical book or spoonfeed me the information yourself?

>>4889263
pretty much this, I can't tell you how many apple computers i saw with the oregon trail on them in schools

>>4890105
>>4889263
what about Apple systems?

>>4890105
I used to play dark castle on my apple 2. Now i own it on genesis, i fucking love that game!

>>4889204
I have many, many PDFs for this shit. Mostly software related, but some hardware too. Let me upload them for you.

>>4890279
Actually, now that I'm poking through them, I have more hardware related books than I thought. I'll have a link for anyone interested in ~11 minutes.

13 books/manuals on classic Mac hardware and software. Also a bunch of software that was bundled with two of the books. Enjoy.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1fcbjyy1lPPmQG01xRivGLAfeNmrE-TaG?usp=sharing

>>4890350
>>4890287
>>4890279
Thanks a ton anon!! That is perfect!! Appreciate it

>>4890793
You got it dude, I hunted down that stuff, mainly the 128/512k service manual to do some diagnostics when I got a Fat Mac on craigslist a few years ago. Can't remember where I found it all, but I figured I should pass on the knowledge.

Classic Macintosh is so fucking patrician. I'm so thankful that my parents were Apple nerds.

>>4890887
My mom was a 2nd grade teacher, I remember her coming home with a school-provided Mac Classic to develop lesson plans over the summer. First computer I ever used, and I'm still a Macfag to this day. Classic Mac OS is the fucking jam though.

>>4890904
My man. My first home PC experience was with a Color Classic.

>>4890924
What a radical first computer experience. A restored, upgraded Color Classic is still one of my holy grails. My (significantly) older brother brought some friends home from college when I was a kid, and one of them brought their Color Classic with a bunch of Simpsons sound effects and silly 'of the time' system extensions; totally blew my mind.

>>4890936
Yeah, you have no idea how much I wish my parents had held onto our old Macs. Lost to the sand of time I'm afraid.

>>4890952
Sad, but they probably would have died of capacitor failure at this point. My Classic II was temporarily brought back to life by running the mobo through the dishwasher, but I'm sure it didn't last (it's in storage at the moment). That said, now that G4 Mac minis can run OS 9, I should be able to run pretty much everything I want to on one of those, and they're pretty reliable.

>>4891012
>now that G4 Mac minis can run OS 9,

What?
Is this some new fan patch?

>>4891012
now that G4 Mac minis can run OS 9,

What? Is this a new fan patch?

>>4893121
>>4893138
Yeah, that's exactly what it is. My G4 mini is in storage a few states away, so I haven't had a chance to try it yet, but it seems to be a game changer.

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4365.msg30502.html#msg30502

>>4889263
but they could play dig dug

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTxiy3wJ4_g

>>4893469
I always wanted a Compact Mac with an Apple II card. Something about playing Maniac Mansion on a Compact Mac would make my day.

>>4889204
If 80s and 90s material as scanned PDFs works for you, you need to check out http://vintageapple.org/

>314 general interest Mac books
>158 books about Mac programming
>258 issues of MacWorld
>134 issues of MacUser

>>4894509
oh shit I didn't know they had MacWorld scans. thanks anon.

Don't know about answer to OP, but games I played on Mac Plus during the 80s:

F-16 Falcon (Spectrum Holobyte)
NFL Challenge (XOR Software)
>Hardball!
(The dos version of this game was in the movie "The Princess Bride")
>Some other MLB coaching simulator game
I can't remember the name of it, but had real teams from the era and also classic teams like the 1927 Yankees. It also had voice.
>Daleks

I think all of these games are available for other platforms, though, in color (Mac Plus was B&W).

>>4894826
>Some other MLB coaching simulator game
Microleague Baseball

Sports seem to be the least popular genre here but I played a lot of them when I was a kid.

>>4893469
That's not a real native mode game.

>>4895092
>>4894826
>>4889263
I know that the Mac had certain inherently superior ports, like Doom and X-Wing ran in native 640x480, which was awe-inspiring when you were accustomed to 320x200 DOS graphics

>>4894919
>Sports seem to be the least popular genre here but
It's too normie and this board only cares about JRPGs anyway.

>>4891012
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g7ZiaM_66Y

good resource (along with a schematic) for an se/30 recap

>>4895192
Can we please have one thread where some buttblasted faggot doesn't bring up JRPGs?

>>4896236
no

>>4896236
Dont mind him it's a just dumb redditor who came here in summer 2016 and think he's hot shit posting oldass reaction pics like >>4896385 or the same spongebob and southpark shit. He's so buttblasted about anything coming from japan it's hilarous.

>>4889204
>mod
Why though?

>>4896614

>>4896685
Like a clockwork

>>4896695
>Like a hufag

>>4889204
If yer into Macs, here's what you need.

Find Own Linzmeyer's Mac Bathroom Reader, or anything else he wrote. It's as close as you will get to info on every Mac, though it leaves out a lot.

Get a Mac in the Classic form factor and get it running. A Mac 128k is ideal, but rare. 512k is good too but also rare. Mac Plus is meh. Go for a Mac SE if you can, SE/30 really. They can have ethernet cards put in them and can run Mac OS 6.

Collectibles: Original Mac 128k, Mac TV, 30th Anniversary Mac, Power Mac clones, rare Performas (that's a whole ball of wax, generally ignore Performas), Atari ST's and Amiga's with Mac adapters, the Lisa, and prototypes. Prototype Macs have flat shiny plastic with no texture, and usually have a sticker on the bottom saying it's Apple property.

All clones will probably be worth something some day, but for now, the Macs from before 1990 are what's worth $$, and the older they are the more they are worth.

Also look for Apple stuff, like shirts, games, boxed copies of software, accessories, etc. Some of those things are worth money too.

Also, keep an eye out for a Pipin.

>>4894826
A lot of these are now playable in the browser at archive.org

https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_mac

I actually have an SE running System 5. It's interesting to fire up SimCity and Daleks on it on occasion.

The Apple II CFFA is supposed to work on Macs if you don't want to use floppy disks, although it's not cheap.

>>4897210
Yeah it does. It's great!

>>4897210
It's hard to find 3.5" DD disks in decent condition anymore.

>>4897210
There's probably also some CF adapter for hard disk storage.

>>4897106
A Mac 128 would be nearly useless. The SE is best although some software designed for the earliest Macs won't work; you need a Plus for that.

>>4897221
>>4897210
>>4897201

This is what you want: https://www.bigmessowires.com/floppy-emu/

Dood who makes it is awesome as fuck. Check out his Big Mess of Wires.

Toaster Macs are a bit of a problem if the CRT has gone bad because they have no connection for an external monitor.

>>4897265
Can't you replace it with another 9" tube?

>>4897263
I actually got lucky, this one has a SCSI HDD that is solid as a rock even after all these years. The disk in the drive actually came with it, and is for keeping the disk drive protected when you transport it. What I would love to do is get A/UX running on it (I have the images to write to floppy, of which I have a full box of actual working reformatted Mac disks), but I would need to upgrade it to 4MB, which requires some soldering. I can do it, but I am also tempted to leave it as it is just because of the vintage. I certainly don't want to wipe this OS off the disk, and installing A/UX requires you to repartition the disk into multiple parts like very old versions of Linux did for things like primary OS, swap, etc.

>>4897359
Not to mention the whole point of that would be to get the ethernet adapter so I could SSH into my other Macs here, just for shits and giggles, and maybe some text based browsing.

>>4897362
There is an HTTP server too! Ran one on an SE in the 2000's/

>>4897381
>There is an HTTP server too!
That would be...interesting, to say the least. Would be fun to hand code a static webpage for that, again, mostly for giggles.

>>4897382
Stopped collecting and sold everything off like a decade ago due to space... Old photos here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/vonguard/albums/72057594115394279

This is the SE running HTTPd whenCode Red was going around. It was basically monopolizing the time of those Windows IIS machines that were spreading the virus...

I just got a sweet deal on some SE's.

One has a floppy drive (Superdrive) that is not reading floppies. Does any one know if I can replace busted hardware pieces in the drive with ones from a standard IBM floppy? ( I would assume so, but they arent directly interchangeable.

Also I have to discharge the Monitor which is sketching me out. Ive done it on a imac before, but it just freaks me out

>>4897456
The drives in pretty much all Macs are Sony SCSI auto inject drives, so no, not really. You really need a direct replaceemnt.

>>4897456

>>4897210

>>4897417
>when Code Red was going around. It was basically monopolizing the time of those Windows IIS machines that were spreading the virus...

That is a noble purpose man, akin to modern day SMTP/HTTPS Honeypots for modern malware.

>>4897517

I mainly mean like the gears and such, the mechanical action stuff., not the circuitry.

There are some good games but Macs never were a gaming machine and still aren't.

>>4897527
It's always possible but its unlikely to match the OEM drive.

>>4897201
What's GQ II? I can't think of anything from the era with those initials.

>>4898609
Grail Quest II, which seems to be Zork but with an Arthurian legend bent, and obviously graphics. I also have Dark Castle, MLB II (which I can’t play because it asks for codes from the manual) and some game called Moebius that causes the system to bomb when you load it- it has it’s own System Folder that is 160,768 bytes in the folder it is in, so it likely has to be written to a floppy and booted directly into the game.

>>4899109
Oh! Also, Macs Headroom, a Desk Accessory with a two frame animation of his stuttering effect from the show.

>>4889263
What are you smoking? There are plenty of /vr/ games for Mac, some even exclusive.
You probably never owned a higher end 68k machine.

>>4899109
A World Builder game... I remember that shit, used to make all kinds of garbage in it as a kid.
Anyone play the Ray's Maze series?

>>4899126

>>4899126
There were no Mac-exclusive games, and no games that ran better on a Mac than a PC.

>>4899165
>There were no Mac-exclusive games

There was a lot of free/shareware, but A-list titles were seldom if ever Mac exclusives. Apple never really did intend them as a gaming machine aside from educational titles.

>>4890350
>>4894509
I remember reading part of one of these books once, and it had a section about easter eggs that said a certain version of MS Word would correct "matter" to some hyphenated garbage
Tried to track down that book years later but I could never figure out which one it was

>>4899175
I remember a Word easter egg (at least in the Win95 version) that would correct something like "Bill Clinton should be impeached" to "I'll drink to that!"

Apple have always kept a very strict level of control over the Mac line and provided a rigid set of programming guidelines to software devs to ensure everything works on every machine. Despite all their silly TV ads about Big Brother, they're really the most Orwellian company of all.

>>4899175
>>4899180
Answered my own stupid question through sheer dumb luck, just grabbed a few PDFs and started searching
Maybe some of these will work for people with emulators

I love how Applefaggots beat off to their overpriced monochrome shitboxes with beeper sound while Amiga users had VGA graphics and stereo sound.

>>4899165
>what is Marathon Trilogy
Only Marathon 2 had a Windows port.

>>4897517
>The drives in pretty much all Macs are Sony SCSI auto inject drives

Only 680x0 machines had the auto inject drives. The PowerPC line used a different manual inject drive.

>>4899161
IIgs was outdated by the 90's with no upgrade paths.
I own a IIgs you silly-willy.

>>4899220
>Being a fanboy about a single machine
Lame.

Also:
>Amiga users had VGA graphics
You're a dum-dum.

>>4899239
That’s not true. It was a different drive but it auto injected. I had a long line of PPC Macs.

>>4899236
Doom clones were a dime a dozen in the 90s. None of them were special.

>>4899239
>>4899264
Apparently the PPC machines couldn't access 800k disks as reliably as the 680x0 machines.

>>4899250
That Centris 650 was the last 68k Mac I had before I finally upgraded to a PPC 6100/60 in 1998. I had the Apple Adjustable Keyboard with it, and I really wish I had hung onto it, was the last keyboard Apple made with Alps switches, plus The Plague used one in Hackers.

>>4899282
I wouldn’t be surprised. by that point they were using 1.44MB drives of a later revision to the ones uses in 68k machines.

>>4899220
The Mac line wasn't primarily for gaming though.

>>4899267
>/vr/
>retro games
>hates old video games
Yeah, no.

>>4899287
That's nice, sucks you don't have it anymore.
This one has a Quadra motherboard though.

Mac games are more like the kind of stuff you'd find on Windows 3.x. Mostly hacky shareware titles and kiddie edu games.

>>4899331
>t. never played games on a mac
Why do people speak out of their ass?
I'd agree if we are talking only about games made for monochrome 68000 machines.

>>4899352
This is a retro game board, so obviously when we talk about Macs, we're primarily talking about that era, not OS X shit.

>>4899368
But *that* era was only from the early 80's to late 80's.
/vr/ also includes the 90's.

>>4899374
PPC came out mid-90s and the two lines overlapped for a bit.

>>4899387
Why did Apple give up on the 680x0?

>>4899396
Motorola stopped investing any significant money into them.

As for the PPC -> Intel switch, it was mostly cost reasons and the lack of a low powered PPC chip for laptops.

>>4899387
You're forgetting that in terms of software support, a lot of games and developer supported m68k for years after the PPC Macintoshes came out.
Proper Macintosh 68k games range from late 80's to late 90's.

>>4899396
Motorola acknowledged the limitations of the CISC based m68k and developed the PowerISA together with IBM.
Both CPU development (as did the machines) overlap for a while.

That's why 6502 based machines like the Apple II did not have a future either. Technology was progressing so rapidly, chips and ISAs like that would run up against walls that where still efficient and newer and more modern alternatives just became a better idea. Hence we have so many jumps from different ISAs, like m68k to PPC to Intel.

Like x86 these days exists only as a virtual ISA that's run on proprietary RISC based CPUs. The switch happened around the same time when m68k hit a wall and PPC came out.
Intel and Microsoft just forced the ISA through to remain dominant and legacy compatible on the market. That's what x86 sucks so much (these days at least).

>>4899439
So how come we can't get rid of x86 which has a far more limiting and brain-damaged architecture than the 680x0?

For some reason, WDC still makes new 65C02s and 65816s.

>>4889204
There are 120,000 Mac models so it's a huge spaghetti mess to get into.

>>4899472
>For some reason
Not surprising at all, it's used as a microcontroller in embedded applications.

>>4899307
At one point I ended up with all the 68k Macs from an entire district (for nothing)- from SE/30’s all the way through to the last 68k machines. Maybe 200+ computers, some them like the Quadra 950’s made for awesome Marathon II machines. Literally had to rent a 30 rolloff dumpster when I moved across country to flush all that stuff (had long since moved to G4/the first G5 units)- some of it I regret not keeping.

>>4899439
EV Nova (2002) officially required a G3 but still ran on the same 68040 engine as its predecessors, I always wondered what it would look like running on, say, a Quadra 840

>>4899689
I would expect it would just take forever to calculate the turns, unless they migrated some of that stuff to PPC code, which would explain needing a G3 even though the engine is an evolution of the 68k code

PPC assembly language is very strange if you're not used to it and absolutely nothing like Intel or Motorola coding.

>>4899656
>At one point I ended up with all the 68k Macs from an entire district (for nothing)- from SE/30’s all the way through to the last 68k machines. Maybe 200+ computers, some them like the Quadra 950’s made for awesome Marathon II machines. Literally had to rent a 30 rolloff dumpster when I moved across country to flush all that stuf
Why don't you sell the lot on Ebay instead of trashing it?

>>4899996
>unless they migrated some of that stuff to PPC code, which would explain needing a G3 even though the engine is an evolution of the 68k code
It was purely a speed issue since EVN will boot and run in a 68040 emulator, the only hard limits are you need Mac OS 8.1 and 128MB of RAM.

That said there aren't many 68K machines that could reach 128MB and an emulated machine on a modern PC is an order of magnitude faster than a contemporary one would have been.

>>4900031
it's not terribly important with macs. most shit for them is written using C or C++ anyway.

>>4900031
>a bi-endian RISC ISA has different ASM than a little and big endian CISC ISAs
who knew

>>4900054
If you're doing graphics blit stuff or writing device drivers, you probably will use some assembly language.

>>4890350
There were some things Apple never documented including how to initialize the hardware on power up.

>>4900034
This was in 2005, I was moving to Floroda for college, needed to sell the house. No time.

>>4900054
Actually back then it was Pascal for a damn long time.

Apple were obsessed with Logo and Pascal and promoted them for many years.

>>4900075
It gets a little funky because most 680x0 coding will use relative jumps rather than absolute ones since most common 680x0 machines like the Mac and Amiga require the code to be relocatable, but you can only jump 32k forward or backward because unsigned 16-bit values are used by relative jump instructions on the 680x0.

Of course on the Mega Drive, you don't have to worry about relocatable code and can use all the absolute jumps you want.

>>4900245
Big deal, it's no different on Windows coding. You have to use relative jumps to ensure code can be relocatable.

>>4900245
>It gets a little funky because most 680x0 coding will use relative jumps rather than absolute ones since most common 680x0 machines like the Mac and Amiga
Mac yes, Amiga only if you're writing programs that run from within Workbench (usually utilities and application software). Most Amiga games just auto boot from a floppy and monopolize all system resources so there's no need to worry about having relocatable code.

>>4900261
32-bit executables use paged memory so you can very much use absolute jumps. 64-bit has flat memory like pre-OS X Macs; in that case jumps do have to be relative.

The overall hardware and architecture of Macs didn't change that much until the Intel switch at which point they basically became PCs. Late PPC machines are closer to a modern day Mac in that older interfaces like SCSI and ADB had disappeared, although any PPC machine is still able to run at least some 680x0 software. Generally speaking, a given piece of Mac software should be compatible with any machine that matches the stated system requirements while on a PC you could never be entirely sure.

Pre-Intel Macs have only flat memory and no memory protection and OS 6 is the last version that's 100% compatible with software designed for the original Mac 128/512, but at least some monochrome-era stuff will still run on System 7.

>>4900753
True but there were a lot of hardware and OS changes from model to model. Apple did however try to ensure that developers strictly used the APIs to ensure maximum compatibility.

>>4900753
I think CD-era 680x0 stuff should run up to the very last PPC machines made, although floppy disk stuff won't.

>>4900753
Didn't they drop SCSI because it was too expensive compared to IDE?

>>4900764
>>4900753
The phrase used for anything that will definitely run on 68k or PPC is "fat binary"

>>4900753
It's basically a PC but with Apple's customized OS ROMs instead of the PC ROM BIOS and a few proprietary bits like Firewire ports.

Can anyone identify this model? Is it worth $50

Do any of these seem good for their respective prices?

>>4899165
>No games that ran better on mac than a PC
Nigga, you never played the mac versions of the maxis sim games. Games like those were just overall better on Mac with actual music, sounds and graphics that didn't look like absolute garbage. Also the mac has a bunch of pretty neat exclusive shareware and freeware.

>>4899267
>Shit talking Marathon
Get off this board right now.

>>4890212
HOOF HOOF HOOF HOOF EEeee...

>>4900849
Nope.

>>4900849
SE's are always good. That all-in-one Performa is garbage, avoid. The tower is crap too. 6500's are total dog shit, with a 603 shit box processor.

>>4900849
Oh, you know what though? that all-in-one Performa does have a MacPro keyboard. it's probably reaaaally clicky, and ADB keyboards are harder and harder to find these days.....

Maybe it's worth it just for the keyboard.

>>4901832
>That all-in-one Performa is garbage, avoid
They were mostly fleet computers for schools.

>>4900031
http://www.ds.ewi.tudelft.nl/vakken/in1006/instruction-set/

Enjoy.

>After releasing a total of sixty-four different models, Apple retired the Performa brand in early 1997, shortly after release of the Power Macintosh 5500, 6500, 8500 and 9600. The end of Performa at Apple coincided with both a period of significant financial turmoil due in part to low sales of Performa machines, and the return of Steve Jobs to the company.

>>4900849
These all in one machines always seemed like a terrible idea to me. You couldn't use the thing if the CRT goes bad and it also makes the computer really difficult and dangerous to take apart for repairs/adding/removing hardware.

>>4900849
>>4901867
Those things were junk and symbolized poor, bankrupt, dying mid-90s Apple right before Jobs came back.

The Performa line was when Apple tried to sell mass market machines at big box retailers instead at authorized dealers as they'd traditionally done. Unfortunately they couldn't compete with PCs for price, cheap, readily available peripherals, or software.

Macs had the advantage over PCs in resolution for a while because they had 640x480 while most PC games still used 320x200. Unfortunately this may have been one reason why Macs didn't get many cross-ports--the graphics had to be completely redesigned.

Take something like X-COM. This would be extremely difficult to adapt to a Mac because all the load/save game and other game control features would need to be set up as menus.

>>4901917
Macs until OS X had concurrent multitasking. This was not very conductive to gaming.

>>4901875
I think their assumption was that only authorized Apple repair centers would be doing that stuff.

>>4901832
>SE's are always good
Beware, they used barrel batteries which can leak.

>>4901835
It's not, you can get AEK / AEK II's for $20-30 on eBay and they're the best boards Apple ever made. You'll pay more for the Griffin iMate ADB-USB converter, but you can build them with a teensy now for a few bucks.

>>4901875
Toaster Macs had a 9" monochrome tube. This was commonly used by a lot of things especially security monitors so a replacement wouldn't be that hard to find if you needed it.

>>4901832
>1990
>Motorola 68000 @ 7.8 MHz
Yikes!

>>4902996
The SE came out in 87 though.

>>4899242
>IIgs was outdated by the 90's with no upgrade paths.
which was deliberate, since despite the advantages the IIgs had, Apple didn't want it cutting into Mac sales

>>4889204
There is one if don't mind reading French. The special Macintosh 30th Anniversary issue of iCreate. 178 pages and pretty well in depth also.

>>4903462
No, not the marketing way out outdated, but by the architecture itself.
Of course Apple wanted to get rid of it anyways.

>>4903462
Steve Jobs mistreated the IIgs team so bad and ended up gimping it into a 2mhz toaster, despite all the other stuff going for it, and on top of that wanted the Mac to be monochrome and all in one, before he left the company. After that, they made the Macintosh II which wasn't an all in one, and could display in color.

Power mac 5500/225 (Old pic)
I upgraded the cd-rom to a 24X and replaced the battery.
It's currently running OS 8.6.

Runs Tomb Raider smooth as butter.
I also run Pro-pinball: Big race U.S.A. at a relatively hi-res (hi-res for 1997)
I got the Mac classic port of Star Wars (the wire frame arcade one) to work but it gets buggy with the joystick and works better with the mouse.

>>4903824
>but by the architecture itself.
No more than any other 16bit micro. That sumbitch was also easily moddable and upgradable.

>>4906014
>No more than any other 16bit micro.
Exactly, that's why architectures where swapped so often. The 65816 was a hack job on the 6502, it had no future.
Just like m68k was discontinued after the '060 as it just wasn't viable to upgrade.

The II line would have had to find a new CPU to use also, probably m68k. So why not go straight up to Macintosh instead?
Hardware specific chipsets where a dead end.

The only reason we still have x86 that's compatible with 8086 is because it's a massive legacy hack job that shouldn't even exist and the modern CPUs running the code have nothing specific in common with it's older counterparts anymore.

Modern x86 chips are just a RISC architecture that executes x86 code through an emulation layer just as the PPC used one to execute 680x0 code.

>>4906368
wew
like it hasn't been said before
>>4899439
>Like x86 these days exists only as a virtual ISA that's run on proprietary RISC based CPUs. The switch happened around the same time when m68k hit a wall and PPC came out.
>Intel and Microsoft just forced the ISA through to remain dominant and legacy compatible on the market. That's what x86 sucks so much (these days at least).

it's far more low level though, unlike PPC emulating 680x0 code
the ISA decoder/encoder is on the chip level and not software level

>>4906246
>So why not go straight up to Macintosh instead?
Because it wasn't "up." Everything else about it was garbage. Not to mention the 65816 outperformed the 68000 at the same clock in ALL operations, by up to a factor or four in some like accessing memory, and a factor of 15 when dealing with interrupts. With a Transwarp GS to take over for the gimped CPU the IIgs remained performance-competitive with the Mac up until they switched to PowerPC, which meant the architecture changed at that point anyway.

>>4899203
Matter is a legitimate archaic term for purulent discharge. Like in the Beatles lyric "Yellow matter custard dripping from a dead dog's eye."

>>4901921
>concurrent multitasking
The word you want here is "cooperative." It means one program can monopolize the CPU... which, if all you're doing is playing a game, is not such a bad idea.

>>4907967
You're missing the point entirely. They would have needed to switch from the 65816 to Motorola way sooner than Motorola to PowerPC to stay remotely competitive.
Transwarp GS was not even close to '030 or '040 levels of performance or even a higher clock speed '020. Sure it was faster clock by clock than a vanilla 68000.
In the end it doesn't matter that they switched from the II line a few years earlier, unless you're a hardcore II fanboy and maybe missed out on one or two successors to the IIgs that could have been. Sure the early Macintoshes where far behind the IIgs at first in terms of pretty colors, sound and raw CPU throughput, nobody said they weren't. But I can even understand Jobs, he never wanted any of his computers to be gaming machines, the crispy monochrome high res Macintosh was a good idea for him for text related work over the IIgs.

If you say things like the 65816 would have been market competitive (specially over the m68k) to the mid-90's when they switched over to PPC, you're making yourself sound really dumb about the topic.

>>4908483
>he never wanted any of his computers to be gaming machines
Jobs wasn't opposed to games on principle, he just thought dedicated gaming hardware was frivolous and that if you wanted to write games, you should do it on the existing hardware Apple gave you; they weren't going to provide any special features to benefit gamers.

>>4908597
Just as I said, he never wanted the computers to be exclusive gaming machines.
If he wanted them to be gaming machines also, he would have gotten every engineer in the company to make the Macintosh a machine capable for high end sound and graphics at the time.
He was imparcial, not opposed.

A lot of Apple engineers resented that the IIgs was twice the computer the Mac was and for a lower price. The only area the Mac had an advantage in was raw CPU speed. The first Mac model that outperformed the IIgs was the Mac II and it cost like $8000.

>>4908606
>The first Mac model that outperformed the IIgs was the Mac II and it cost like $8000
The bugger could use like 128MB of RAM in 1987.

>>4908606
>The only area the Mac had an advantage in was raw CPU speed.
Why do you people keep on memeing about that? Do you just look at >>4899161 and assume it's true?
No, the 65816 was far more efficient than the vanilla 68000 used in the low and early Macintoshes. Even when not accounting for the deliberate gimping of the 65816 in the IIgs.
Obviously blown out of the water by the m68k though a few years later with MOS delivering no upgrade path for the architecture.

Even the SNES which didn't have as gimped of a CPU as the IIgs ran at a painfully slow clip compared to the Mega Drive.

>>4907967
>>4908619
>Not to mention the 65816 outperformed the 68000 at the same clock in ALL operations,
>The 65816 was far more efficient than the vanilla 68000
What you're not saying there is that the 65816 has way simpler instructions, less data registers and less address registers. It takes much more 65816 instructions to do the same things you'd do with a 68000 CPU.
>>4908428
>The word you want here is "cooperative."
Except that "concurrent" has alway been the word used to define this kind of multitasking.

>>4908624
>What you're not saying there is that the 65816 has way simpler instructions, less data registers and less address registers. It takes much more 65816 instructions to do the same things you'd do with a 68000 CPU.
It's like the 6502 compared against the Z80. Z80s were much preferred for business software because the instruction set was more powerful, it had 16-bit registers, and it took fewer instructions to accomplish something.

>>4908619
>with MOS delivering no upgrade path for the architecture
The 65816 was WDC; MOS had nothing to do with it. WDC still sells new ones in a modernized CMOS design.

>>4908626
More than just more powerful instructions, the 68000 with it's eight multipurpose 32bit registers is way more flexible, it allow you to work with the registers all you want while the 65816 with it's single (yes only one) non-index 16bit register (which is in fact made up of two 8bit registers) waste it's time moving data from and to memory.

As I understand, the 65816s could be clocked up to 16Mhz. No idea why Apple gimped it like that.

>>4908650
Faster clock speeds would necessitate faster and thus more expensive RAM. In the case of the SNES, they might have needed to cap it at 4Mhz to work with the GPU.

>>4908617
Cripes, imagine how long that would take to count the RAM on power up.

>>4908624
>Except that "concurrent" has alway been the word used to define this kind of multitasking.
Buddy do you have the first clue what you're talking about? Multitasking is inherently concurrent, because it's one type of concurrency (there are others). Cooperative multitasking is the specific kind used on early Mac systems (and in old Windows versions, too) that has embarrassing weaknesses.

Concurrent multitasking is when all processes get an equal amount of CPU time. Preemptive prioritizes some processes over others. Mac OSes from 3 to 9 (the earliest Mac OSes were only single tasking) were cooperative. Windows since 95 is preemptive, and Amiga master race had preemptive multitasking in 1985.

>>4908693
Macs didn't do that, fortunately. At least not in the same manner an IBM compatible would.

>>4908693
It doesn't. Apple have never had RAM POSTs on any of their machines all the way back to the Apple II. Since modern PCs don't have them anymore either, Apple were ahead of the curve.

>>4908715
>>4908718
Wrong.

For example:
https://www.thinkclassic.org/viewtopic.php?id=616

All my 68k Macintosh that are upgraded to the brim take a minute or two after the startup chime before they even output video, that's because they are checking memory. It's pretty much instant when there's no more than a few MB of memory though.

>>4908772
Huh, thanks for the correction. Guess I've never had more than 4MB in a 68k machine.

>>4908718
>Since modern PCs don't have them anymore either
They actually do, it's pretty much instant though

I've never found PC POSTs that effective anyway in detecting faulty RAM. I had a 386 once with a stuck bit that the POST missed. It was in the first 32k where the BIOS equipment byte was located because it thought I didn't have a joystick port present, even though I did. The thing otherwise worked fine except games would act like there was no joystick.

>>4908718
RAM failures are relatively common on Apple IIs because Apple used a lot of shitty brands like Micron back then; early Macs also often had these in them. Also the II/II+ had triple voltage chips which get hot and are especially sensitive to a bad PSU because of the very specific power up sequence they need.

Once you got to the 256kx1 chips like the 41256, the reliability of DRAM improved a lot. Amiga 500s used these and RAM failures in Amigas seem to be very rare.

>>4908718
You're confused. It was parity RAM that Apple never bothered with.

>>4908790
It's no memtest but it's pretty good at finding bad bits.

>>4908641
MOS had given up on the 65XX and WDC had nothing much else to do than add resigers and use different fabrication method to higher the clock speed. It was a dead in the the water chip only successful past the 8-bit days in embedded computing.

>>4908820
It passed the POST as I said, but would freeze randomly with Parity Check errors while I was working. I went to the BIOS and turned the parity check off so this would stop happening.

I eventually upgraded the RAM so that got rid of the bad stick. I think it was a 256k SIMM like what you'd find in a Mac Plus--probably 256kx1 chips.

>>4908648
The IBM PC probably saved the 8086 from an early demise because everyone was fapping to the Z8000 and 68000 at the start of the 80s and the 8086 was kind of treated as a joke.

>>4908829
>MOS had given up on the 65XX

Commodore had lost most of their engineering talent by the mid-80s--remember that the Amiga was designed by outside people and they just purchased it.

>>4908850
Amiga went to Commodore themselves, just like they tried with Atari and made even a bigger mess.
Commodore purchasing Amiga was a marketing tactic to save Amiga.

Amiga is the successor to the 8-bit Atari line while Atari ST is a Amiga knockoff made by some of the same people who designed the Commodore 64.

>>4908803
>>4908830
That's odd because 41256s are one bit per chip. If you had a stuck bit in one of the chips on the stick, it would affect that bit in _all_ memory locations. You would start noticing errors all over the place.

>>4908858
I dunno either. The computer worked fine with the exception of not detecting the joystick, and the problem stopped as soon as I upgraded the RAM with different sticks. I should have had errors in more than just one memory location, but I didn't. I'm at a loss to explain it.

>>4908834
Actually no the 8086 was used in plenty of non-IBM compatible computers in the 80s. The IBM PC might be the most well-known machine that made use of it, but there were other computers like the Micral 9020 and 9050 from Bull, the PC-98 and APC series from NEC, the FMR series from Fujitsu. Really, the 8086 wasn't frowned upon at all.

>>4908869
Does not change the fact that 8086 was kind of a joke at it's time compared to the competition.
Just because marketing made it profitable to use as a CPU for several companies for their computers instead just the IBM PC does not change that fact.

x86 has been frowned upon always, specially after it left the 386 line of chips that it should have died together with.
Intel even wanted to trash it at one point but couldn't because keeping the Wintel legacy was more profitable than actually making more efficient chips.

>>4908907
Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft.

>>4908896
>Does not change the fact that 8086 was kind of a joke at it's time compared to the competition.
Didn't say it was actually any better than competition, I said it wasn't the ugly duckling of 16bit CPUs like >>4908834 claimed.
Funnily enough of all the architectures mentioned the IBM PC was the weakest thanks to it's use of the 8088 and 8bit bus.
>>4908907
>x86 has been frowned upon always, specially after it left the 386 line of chips that it should have died together with.
That sentence makes no sense.

>>4908896
I'm not kidding. The 68000 was the sexy chip everyone wanted to have back then, but it was too expensive for consumer machines until the mid-80s.

>>4908919
IBM*

>>4908924
>That sentence makes no sense.
x86 chips of the early days where okay.
x86 after 386 became a dumb marketing gimmick only existing because it was more profitable to feed the dead horse instead of getting a new one.

The 8086 is mostly just a Z80 that can use 1MB of memory instead of 64k, it's not a true next generation chip like the 68000 was.

>>4906450
>it's far more low level though, unlike PPC emulating 680x0 code
>the ISA decoder/encoder is on the chip level and not software level
Well come on, we're talking 20 years ago. It wasn't possible to have on-chip emulation in the 90s.

>>4908962
>Well come on, we're talking 20 years ago. It wasn't possible to have on-chip emulation in the 90s.
What do you think P6 is?
Also, it's not emulation, it's decompiling one big CISC instruction many little RISC ones.
Mac's with PPC running 680x0 code was the OS running software emulation.

>Starting with Pentium Pro (P6 microarchitecture), Intel redesigned it's microprocessors and used internal RISC core under the old CISC instructions.
>Micro-ops Fusion of certain sub-instructions mediated by decoding units. x86 commands can result in fewer RISC micro-operations and thus require fewer processor cycles to complete.

Mac OSes 7-9 were a horrible hack job and I don't miss them at all.

>>4909019
Actually OS 8-9 where. System 7 was not.
It became a horrible hackjob thanks to all the dumb shit integrated from Copland in OS 8. Not to mention mandatory PPC support.

Did Macs in the 90s exist outside of schools at all? I remember going to computer shows with my dad as a kid and never ever seeing a single Mac or anything at all except PC stuff.

>>4909101
Yes

OS 8 sucked but a huge number of upgrade copies were sold because Mac user groups urged everyone to buy it and help struggling Apple get back on their feet. Pirate groups even refused to carry OS 8 because "Apple needs our support".

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?62806-Power-Macintosh-6100-with-Bad-Ram

The 6100s were well known pieces of shit.

>>4909134
There where plenty of uther shit Macintoshes, specially from the time Jobs was gone.
Only good ones in my book are high end m68k models (i.e. Quadra) and late PPC (non /vr/ though, but G4, G5).

>>4909134
From what I gather, his RAM was ok, but the tester program had issues. The issue seems to have been more in the 6100 using multifunction cables to save space.

>>4909281
>Only good ones in my book are high end m68k models (i.e. Quadra)
For a price.

>Apple in charge of trying to compete in the Unix workstation market with machines that had no memory protection and concurrent multitasking

>>4909292
Yes and Jobs thankfully put a stop to this retardation.

>>4909101
>Did Macs in the 90s exist outside of schools at all?
Artfags had them because they believed Apple's slick marketing that Macs enabled you to produce better art.

>>4909303
If you were doing desktop publishing they really did at the time. They were best for music production too, though you could also do MIDI work on an Atari on the cheap.

I think by the time SVGA was standard on PCs, most of the Mac's advantage for desktop publishing had disappeared. In the 80s, it would have meant something.

>>4909287
Of course for a price. But these days that's pretty irrelevant when the low end models can even cost more because our hipster culture.

>>4909292
The machines had memory protection, any m68k machine with a MMU did. The OS didn't.
That's why Apple tried with A/UX.

Are you the same retard? >>/g/thread/S66598290#p66598892

It would be hard to find a Quadra anyway since they were never all that common compared to consumer models like the Performa 5200.

>>4909313
I think the post-Jobs death price spike is starting to quiet down. PPC stuff is cheap as ever, and 68k stuff is either dead due to bad caps, or coming down in price. I'm still hoping the BMOW finishes his Mac Plus FPGA clone, that would be perfect.

>>4909319
>and 68k stuff is either dead due to bad caps
Caps can be replaced; the real killer are machines that had barrel batteries that can leak and destroy the motherboard.

>>4909316
I don't think Apple ever bothered including the MMU on any Mac (certainly not on any consumer models). It would have been pointless anyway when the OS couldn't use it.

>>4909101
>>4909303
As a European, I come across 90's Macintoshes quite often for what it's worth. They weren't used in schools here, but probably in offices and by private individuals.

>>4909318
Not really. The case is swapped for a Centris one, the board is a 33MHz Quadra.

>>4909326
That's where you're wrong. Because by default anything with a '030 or '040 had a MMU.
Plus several '020 machines had a socketed MMU.

You do realize you also need a MMU to take advantage of virtual memory, something that was part os System/MacOS

Don't make assumptions for the sake of just making a dumb argument.

>>4909327
In the US they've been a staple school machine since the LC arrived in the early 90s to replace the Apple II line for the educational market. Aside from schools, the primary Mac markets were desktop publishing (until PCs caught up in the mid-90s) and some multimedia stuff. Apple's near-demise in 1996 had a lot to do with PCs now being able to do most of the tasks that were once their exclusive domain.

>>4909334
They had too many models many of which only had minor differences from each other. Post-1996 Apple is more about slick marketing than any actual technical advantage over PCs.

>>4909326
>(certainly not on any consumer models)
All their shit was consumer. Any person with a wallet could walk into a store and boy one with easy, unlike buying actual non-consumer gear like SGI or IBM at the time.

>>4909326
>(certainly not on any consumer models)
All their shit was consumer. Any person with a wallet full of money could walk into a store and buy one with easy, unlike buying actual non-consumer gear like SGI or IBM at the time.

>>4909342
That was exactly why it was stupid to try and compete with SGI. The architecture of the Macs wasn't originally designed for workstation/server use, it was a home/office computer.

A/UX was still a hack that piggybacked on top of the Mac OS to run; it wasn't a true standalone OS anyway.

>>4909347
>The architecture of the Macs wasn't originally designed for workstation/server use
As in the Macintosh system design on the architecture of the Macintoshes of the time? Because m68k in itself was used in plenty of actual workstations at the time.

>>4909351
It needed Mac OS to start, you could run A/UX without any Mac OS code running once it booted. Everything from the kernel to drivers ran on the actual hardware.
You probably mean the Finder mode where it starts up a Mac OS desktop alongside A/UX for Mac OS compatibility. You don't need it, you can run a pure X desktop too.
In the Mac OS Finder mode, Mac OS is actually using A/UX drivers over a compatibility layer (hence why things like TCP/IP control panel don't work for example) instead of A/UX using Mac OS drivers.

>>4909360
The OS wasn't suitable for it. But even there, the hardware lacked all the advanced features one would find in an SGI workstation.

>>4909372
I'm not disagreeing on that, it was better than the average Wintel crap at the time but obviously nowhere close to high end workstations.

>>4909372
Ditto requiring expensive, proprietary Apple peripherals.

Apple tried and failed all through the 90s to replace the Mac OS so they finally just went fuck it and bought a Unix kernel to modify.

>>4909409
Jobs comes up with a line of computers.
Apple fires Jobs.
Jobs continued his dream.
Apple was lost without Jobs.
Apple acquires NeXT with Jobs.
Things go back the way they should be.

>>4909454
And the cycle repeats but this time no jobs

>>4909585
>Things will never go back the way the should be.
Fuck.

is there a Mac in the same league as the SE/30 ? 68k CPU, 32bits architecture and up to 128MB (unofficial, Apple said 68MB max but still)(yes, that's megabytes).

For 1989 it was SAVAGE!

>>4911036
Not really, it's fairly unique. The Classic II is very similar, but gimped in the RAM department. The LC II is similar in a pizza box form factor, basically a non-compact Classic II. The LC III bumps up the clock speed.

>>4911064
Thanks. I just got one for music making (my regular SE was too slow for long midi files) and I wondered if the SE/30 existed with a color screen. Well I think I will keep this one and pimp it with a grayscale graphic card whenever I'll have the chance/money to do that

>>4911091
Awesome, I used to use a Mac MIDIMAN interface for doing MIDI work with my Classic II. The Classic I was a total dog and couldn't cut it. You've got things like the Color Classic I & II if you want more power in that form-factor and a color screen, but they are highly sought after and way more expensive than the monochrome models.

>>4911036
In the same league, you mean same form factor? Because yes, latter m68k high end Macintoshes had better options and specs.

>>4911036
Macintosh Color Classic.
Also has the most mods for any compact Macintosh.

>>4911091
>SE/30 existed with a color screen.
With an external monitor.

>>4911126
Interesting. Mine got an external card for accommodating an external lcd that would have been put on top of an overhead projector. I don't know whether this interface could convey colors so I can hack an adapter to an external LCD (I don't think so since the electronics are pretty simple on the extension card so I think it just taps on the monochrome video signal)

>>4909454
More like Jobs fucks up Apple IIgs team to make the Mac look better, gets fired for being a huge fuck, Macintosh actually improves with Jobs out of the picture as they actually do all the things that jobs never wanted it to do, like have Mac II be in a case (not an all in one) and have color, but doesn't sell that well, so they get jobs back, suddenly they sell better but return to horrendous and retarded hardware decisions that get worse and worse as years go by, yet the brainlet mac consumers still think they're smart designs.
Sure OSX was a major improvement, but hardware side was at best "interesting, neat, but over priced", to "Luxary paper weight" at worst

>>4911603
>le apple II fanboy
get over it

>>4911350
I meant extension card, not external card

Is there a guide to buying Apple IIs? I have been meaning to get one and am considering a IIe.

>>4911631
>>le appel II fanboy
Not him but Jobs was a huge cunt no matter what. He purposely came up with a crippled computer line that didn't get any better until he left apple (he wasn't officially fired, just put in the worst place possible so he would quit on his own). With him staying at apple the macintosh line would've stopped with the 1st one. All that Jobs' dick sucking post clearly show how little you know about his negative efect on apple. Hell, it's him who turned it into the little gay shit company that it is now when he came back.

I wish I was smart enough when I was little to understand the specifics of my first apple in 1994 or 1993. We eventually got an Imac and the old mac was wasting away in storage. I didnt realize how nostalgic I was for the old thing until I saw a random video with a clip of someone interacting with the old apple interface like in this thread. The parts I really want are all the old educational software we had on it. I've gone through lists of every single educational game ever released for mac and I can't find them.

Yea or nay?

System 7.6 is probably the best OS that Apple ever made. Perfect in every way possible.
Hey, would anyone know if there was a way to "emulate" an AppleTalk connection, like using ?Basilisk or an actual Mac on modern internet?

I've heard anecdotes about Steve Wozniak at a school playing Marathon with kids. Would've been like passing around a USB stick with Halo on it.

>>4912406
Fuck, if you plannon working on em why not. Save em from the dump!

>>4912249
Cunt or not, he ran a successful company.
People want shit? Can't fault for them wanting shit.
Jobs was a great marketing guy.

>With him staying at apple the macintosh line would've stopped with the 1st one.
What do you even mean? Why would have it stopped if it didn't stop with him being throw out?

I love late 68k Machine, they have nothing to do with Jobs, made 10 years after he was already gone, how am I a Jobs dick sucking poster now? I just dislike tech illiterate faggots who look at a 8-bit guy video or two and/or had Apple II's in school as a kid and now religiously defend them without knowing the endgame for the line would have been pretty much the same with or without Jobs.

>>4912326
Can you name or describe any? Maybe we can help you find them.

>>4912689
>Cunt or not, he ran a successful company.
And almost ran it into the ground with his mid-late 80s fuckery. He matured after creating NeXt.
>Jobs was a great marketing guy.
Yeah so great apple had to almost double the price of the original macintosh to make up for the marketing costs. His campain was pretty much as good as the Amiga 1000's -- big enough to make people buy his computer at first but not to stop the sales from dropping quickly afterwards
>What do you even mean? Why would have it stopped if it didn't stop with him being throw out?
It's pretty obvious, he was opposed to any decision that would've made the macintosh become actually usable. He was sent away because keeping him in a position of power was harmful to the macintosh line.
>I just dislike tech illiterate faggots who look at a 8-bit guy video or two and/or had Apple II's in school as a kid and now religiously defend them without knowing the endgame for the line would have been pretty much the same with or without Jobs.
I don't care about the apple II line. The only apple machines I own are pre-jobs come-back powermacs, and most of the other machines I won aren't something "tech illiterate faggots" would own.

>>4912406

fuck yes. it'll be fun, and if you clean them up you can flip them for at least 40$ each non-working. Also as other anon said, save them from the dump.

>>4912406
I'd say $20 each is nice but they're a bit of a gamble - ask if they turn on.

>>4913273
>and if you clean them up you can flip them for at least 40$ each non-working
Since when is /vr/ reseller scum general?

>>4913337
since when is /vr/ irritating freetard general?

>>4913337

So buying defunct consoles in bulk, putting work into them, then reselling them at a price reflecting the value you added is being "reseller scum" babycakes?

So you just buy direct from the manufacturer or youre just an ass-mad hypocrite?

>>4913559
The term "flip" is just cancerous.

>>4913559
>So buying defunct consoles in bulk, putting work into them, then reselling them at a price reflecting the value you added is being "reseller scum" babycakes?
Except that cleaning broken shit instead of trying to service it is hardly "putting work into it", and doubling the price of some dead computer because it's cleaner now IS reseller scum behavior.
>>4913416
Ever since resellers and their behavior have been frowned upon here, which mean since the very begining.

>>4912723
One was some game where you explore an airport and do random tasks. I completely forget what any task was other than one part where the plane mechanic was supposed to look like superman. Also depending on how many tasks you completed you could unlock paper airplane instructions

Also one ocean explorer game. You didn't have a character or anything, you just went from one part of the ocean to the other getting deeper and deeper as you clicked on things to tell you what they were. Near the end its completely black and you have a flashlight to illuminate all the scary deep fish before moving on and ending the tour. It was hardly a "game" it was more of an interactive virtual tour of the ocean. I feel like there was more too it than that but I can't remember.

>>4913337
If you're getting a haul of goods or have an extra copy of some game, you might as well pretty them up and sell them off, instead of them just taking up space

>>4912983
>I don't care about the apple II line
Then what are you doing on /vr/?

>>4915404
>the only thing you can care about when being on /vr/ is the apple II

>>4897106
>Pipin

dafuq did apple really get in to the home console game?!? wonder how much they are now

>>4893501
would play maniac mansion all night. just watched a play thru and it was intense

>>4915636
The pipins are stupidly expensive from what I heard, but there's literally no reason to get one. All the games suck horribly, and the only one worth while is probably the Marathon Collection, but you can just get an old mac for much cheaper and burn yourself a copy of the trilogy on Mac which has been free for quite a while

>>4911603
>More like Jobs fucks up Apple IIgs team to make the Mac look better, gets fired for being a huge fuck

How far could the IIgs have gone ad Jobs not crippled it?

Could it have kept the apple II line going a few more years?

>>4917279
Outside of processor speed, it was superior to the Mac in the fact that it had color graphics and better sound processing. Of course Jobs pretty much forced it into a sub toaster 2mhz

According to Steve Wozniak, Apple "never really supported the Apple II for the business market". As soon as Visicalc blew up, they decided to develop the Apple /// rather than upgrade or expand the Apple II. Then they pushed the Lisa and Mac. Although third party memory expansions up to 512k as well as hard disks existed, Apple never supported them. They also never tried to offer higher capacity floppy disks (at least not until 3.5" drives years later).

>>4917279
>Could it have kept the apple II line going a few more years?
Not at all. The apple II line ended in 1992, by that time most macintosh models still being sold had at least a 68020, even in lower-end models, while the WDC65816, being already inferior to the 68000, never got any evolution.
As already stated earlier, the 6502 architecture was in a dead end.

>>4917632
But were there many great games for the GS?

I know that there were a few things that could make the GS faster, but were there any great titles for it.

I loved the Apple line.

>>4917678
these were stupid mistakes?

Why didn't they just make more powerful Apples?

>>4918623
Before the Mac had games, yeah, there were quite a lot of games for the IIgs, like Zany golf, Life and Death, Lemmings, Tetris, Tas Times in Tone Town, Another World, etc. All in color and had sound and were much superior to the versions on Mac at the time.

>>4918625
Steve Jobs never liked the Apple II and he encouraged others at Apple to not like it. His vision was a world of turnkey appliance computers that had no or almost no expansion capabilities where you just plugged it in and turned on the power. He thought a computer should be like a refrigerator or a microwave. After Visicalc got popular and caused Apple II sales to shoot through the roof, a lot of people started buying them just to run that particular program.

Jobs once said "People don't care about CPUs, instruction sets, or expansion slots. When they're buying a computer, they're actually buying Visicalc. They're buying an experience."

While we're talking about old Macs some people here may be interested in folklore.org, it details personal accounts from people who were involved in the development of the original Mac hardware and operating system

Reminder that the fastest Apple Macintosh is an Amiga

>>4918837
Also more of Job's retardation at work.

>case fan?
>nope it would make the computer too loud

When engineers protested that 128k of memory was too puny and they needed at least 512k, Saint Steve argued "We can put out a 512k model at some later date and if the user wants the additional memory, he can pay the extra money for the 512k Mac."

The Mac was only supposed to have 17 address lines on the system board, just enough for 128k, but some of the engineers doing the board layout snuck on two additional lines while Jobs wasn't looking, which then allowed the system to be surreptitiously expanded to 512k.

>>4889204
For software try the inside Macintosh book, I think you can get it as a PDFs from Macintoshrepository

>>4897268
I did it with my Mac se/30
You just have to take the yoke off the old tube and put it on the new one

>>4900878
Marathon is hot garbage.

>writing in the February 1984 Byte Magazine, Jerry Pournelle complained about the Mac's lack of memory, numerous OS bugs, software, and limited storage capabilities, although he said it was definitely a ton of fun to play with.

>>4918842
It's really not, there have alway been macintosh models faster than the amiga models available at their time.

>>4918842
reminder that the worst mac ever made is still more useful than an amiga

>>4919548
This is b8.