/vr/ - Retro Games

Worse than even LCD

Your two best options are either a recent, modern tv or a CRT if you really really want the original experience.

>>4883592
Newer plasmas, especially the late panasonics shit all over modern LCD's.
Firstly image quality is 10 times better, especially colours. Secondly the contrast is far higher and the black levels are much deeper. Thirdly viewing angles are superior. Fourthly they don't suffer the godawful motion blur that LCD's have. Fifth they handle upscaling of lower res content much better.
They still suffer the usual input lag problems unfortunately.
As for a 2006 model PDP.... man i dunno......

>>4883610
Hmm, good to know. The picture looks better to me than lcd, but I'd expect that usual input lag.

I found that the actual model is a KDE-42XS955, looks like it was produced 2005 unfortunately. I was told it was originally very expensive but that probably doesn't mean anything regarding quality.

>>4883592
Try it out and let us know. The image quality will probably be pretty good but some plasmas have really bad input lag for older signals.

I'm a dedicated plasma user for my big screens but my buddy's (much more expensive and smaller) OLED is more precise with equal or better color space and no ghosting. The only place the plasma beats it is actual brightness /intensity and plasma is much heavier and runs hotter. Plasma does indeed shit all over LCD though I can't hardly stand to look at LCD anymore

>>4883592
>What is /vr/'s verdict on plasma televisions?
They don't sell new ones in my country.

>>4883694
No country does. It's a dead tech but nice late model ones in particular are still pretty popular with some people, although OLED is finally coming into its own to fill the niche.

>>4883592
nu/vr/'s verdict is that we should have a thread every day asking this same question. The real /vr/s opinion is that this is a bad idea, like using plasmas for games designed for CRTs.

>>4885893
My plasma offers near integer scaling from 15khz sources with minimal lag (1.5 frames) and the non-square pixels are quite pleasing to my eyes, certainly far better than the average LCD.

>>4886910
>better than the average LCD
So worse than any decent LCD

>>4883610

I own highest plasma model Samsung ever released (with lowest input lag of all Samsung plasma TVs) and my 43" lcd Samsung shits all over it when it comes to gaming. Input lat is more than twice longer in plasma, don't know about other brands, but my Samsung is not suitable even for modern, less precise games. I couldn't play retro games on it (pixel-perfect jumps are really hard). That being said image quality is GREAT.

>>4887006
I'm not aware of any LCDs, average or otherwise, with non-square pixels.

Poor choice of words I guess but yeah, I'd happily put my PDP-428XD up against any LCD or OLED for displaying unscaled SD sources.

>>4887014
>what is game mode

>>4883630
In my experience it's the other way around. The input lag is less, but it's picture quality is lacking. Well, not as bad as the shittiest LCDs but not as good as the decent ones.

There's motion blur, there's color banding (contouring), black levels are junk, there's temporal burn in.

A decent LCD will be better, but I imagine it's harder to find a plasma as shitty as the worst LCDs (minus older one withs hard burn in problems). They'd otherwise be "more consistent usable" but never as good as the good LCDs.

Neither technology is all that good though. With the current trend of technology getting fucking worse and failing so often it's hard to imagine getting to the point where we'll ever get another honestly good display tech again.

my Panasonic viera has zero lag. disable all image processing effects and dont let the tv scale the image.

>>4883602
this

>>4887169
Yes, a very poor choice of words. Non-square pixels with "near integer" scaling is shit. Don't even know what you mean by "unscaled SD sources" when your devices of choice will scale them. It's like you think spewing meme words makes your shit magically good.

>>4886910
>1.5 frames
Is that even possible from an unscaled old signal on a plasma?

>>4888045
>zero lag
Is it a Panasonic Viera CRT? Plasmas have lag.

>>4887175

Yeah, just checked, my plasma in game mode has only 97 ms of input lag while my lcd has 27 ms. Any more great ideas gramps?

>>4888576

Nevermind, checked another few websites and they all say 57 ms for Samsung f8500. Still 30 ms more than my lcd.

>>4888576
>>4888589
>worst namefag proven wrong yet again

Who wa shock?

>>4888206
>Non-square pixels with "near integer" scaling is shit.
Is it? Looks fine to me.
>Don't even know what you mean by "unscaled SD sources" when your devices of choice will scale them.
I mean not using a Framemeister or OSSC or similar. The pic I posted was RGB SCART straight into the back of the telly.
>>4888236
>Is that even possible from an unscaled old signal on a plasma?
I may well be reading this wrong but it certainly seems that way. Pioneer image processing is pretty decent.

>>4888236
my th-42pz77u has no input lag. none. this thing is from 2008, maybe newer models lag but this does not. I have been gaming on this thing for ten years. I went directly to this thing from 20 years of using crts. I'd notice. I also did a ton of reasearch before buying it and remember extensive tests being done on avforum confirming the lack of lag before buying it.

>>4889317
That look more like 2-to-2-and-a-half frames, which is more in line with what you'd expect from plasma.

>>4889370
>none
Look man I'm not trying to be mean here but your display has lag. Probably around 2 frames. The fact you don't notice it is a blessing.

>>4889317
>Looks fine to me
And a distorted, stretched display looks fine to others. Congrats. Your standards are less low than theirs.
>The pic I posted was RGB SCART straight into the back of the telly which then scaled it
Cool story

>>4889632
>Cool story
Let me know when you find a fixed pixel display over 5" with native 240p resolution. Until then we'll just have to make do with (minimal) internal scaling.

Btw it cost less than 1/5 the price of a Framememeister. Even my two KRP-500s were less than 1/2 what that thing costs, though understandably those are not as well suited to retro gaming. Unbeatable for 1080p though.

>>4883602
>600mhz
>worse than lcd

>>4883592
I use a scart converter to component on a Panasonic plasma. I don't notice much lag.

If you watch HD broadcast TV or blu-ray movies then its god tier color and viewing angle.

>>4883592
Best non crt you could get up until oled were a thing. They look great but putt off the heat of a space heater, don't use them in small rooms in the summer unless you have a good air conditioner.

>>4889708
compare vs the price of a GBS-8200, since that's the sort of scaling method and features you're getting.

>>4890738
That demonstates how fucking retarded you are. Firstly it's 600Hz and that's for the "sub-field drive" which is a fancy way for marketing to note that the field simply "refreshes" the pixel 10 times per frame. That doesn't mean the pixel response time is 1/10th of 60hz, because it's nowhere near that. Plasmas have considerable motion blurring that is on par with LCDs. Also, just because an LCD manufacturer lists a low pixel response doesn't mean that's actually what the display does, it can be g2g or black/white and they can vary greatly depending on transition levels and they'll often choose the lowest one they can to list rather than the maximum one should ever get is what would benefit the consumer. Sometimes they don't even properly list those numbers at all.

Listing specs of any modern LCD or Plasma is basically useless for describing anything about the displays. There's simply no standards for the specifications being followed nor will there ever be because it's not in any manufacturers interest to do so. Consumers not having any valid information and comparison means you literally just have to randomly roll the dice on the specs or compare them in person yourself and have to do the legwork for calibration. There are very few review sites that will actually do the lions share of actually pulling the actual performance data from displays. The biggest one being tftcentral which doesn't do most models but at least gives definitive data.

>>4889708
>he owns not just three plasmas, but three high-end Pioneers

Kudos on the Kuros, man. I could never find one for sub-1100 so I ended up sticking with a shitty HD CRT and eventually going OLED. It's nice to hear opinions on these screens since I skipped over the tech entirely.

>>4889708
>we'll just have to make do
>we
No. "we" won't.

>>4891781
Thanks anon. They're definitely worth seeking out and honestly even 1100 (insert currency here) would be worth paying for a well looked after example.

I knew there wasn't much point in settling for crappy displays so had to bide my time until the ones I wanted showed up at a price I could afford. The 428 is a bedroom set (I don't really use it for gaming much anymore) and the two KRPs (one "A" model with the separate media box and one "M" pure monitor) are in the two main reception rooms downstairs. SD gaming is taken care of by a PVM-2950QM, 27" Profeel, KX-14CP1 and sometimes one of my BVM-20F1s, if I can be bothered to dig one out of storage and set it up. It's nice to have options and I was lucky to have acquired them all cheaply over the past couple of years.

>>4892237
Lighten up anon, it's an expression. The English language has many subtle nuances which don't always translate well in an online conversation.

>>4892301
>By bullshit was called out, anon. The BTFO hipster has many not so subtle ways of trying to deflect from it's failure.
FTFYK

4892426
Nice try, troll

I do wonder exactly what drives your evident frustration though.

>>4892434
Young dumb broke hipster kids drive my evident frustration

4893454
Oh, then why are you taking it out on a 38 year old aerospace quality inspector homeowning father of two who likes to be careful with his spending?

>>4888589
>>4889116
>27ms lag is "shitting all over" 57ms
It's a small price (essentially none) to pay for the dynamic advantage of plasma. LCD is flat and ugly.

>>4892301
Eh with the advent of OLED I wouldn't pay more than 400 USD for a high-end plasma myself, and certainly not anywhere close to a grand. I wouldn't want one for gaming but wouldn't mind having one for television and movies in the living room.

>>4893939
>57ms is acceptable
For classic JRPGs and some modern games, but for old school action titles I wouldn't recommend it.

>>4883602

Bullshit. My Panasonic plasma is faster with analog inputs than any LCD I've seen. Oh, and the de-interlacing is fucking PERFECT.
I laugh at people who have to buy a FrameMeister or some other bullshit to do what is built-in to my set.

>>4893980
If we're recommending, I hope you'd recommend a CRT for no lag. If you're going for minimal lag you're already doing it wrong. When you use a digital display you're saying you're willing to sacrifice some amount of responsiveness for the advantages of HD-type screens which I hope in your case for whatever reason is weight since in all other categories plasma "shits all over" LCD. LCD is a middle-of-the-road, cheap, meh display technology.

>>4893980
Doesn't OLED still have issues with blue pixels fading twice as fast as red and green ones? Not sure I've trust it after having owned many smartphones which faded to yellow over a couple of years.

Maybe that's why everyone has abandoned building panels except for Lucky Goldstar.

>>4895037
Of course a CRT is king when it comes to lag. However, there are many reasons why someone might want to game on a modern display and none of them mean a person can't also try to minimize lag. Playing on a modern display and not wanting a shitton of lag is not somehow mutually exclusive. LG B7A OLED + OSSC is around 21ms. The lowest plasma display lag number I've seen is 27ms, which really isn't bad. And having all the legacy hook ups and sweet deinterlacing is great. But 57ms is going to make some older action games more difficult. Not unplayable, but more difficult. I'm not a big LCD fan either, which is why I used CRT and HD CRT until I went to OLED this year. However, there are some new LCDs that are a marked improvement and the tech has come a long way.

>>4895090
OLED has come a ways as well. I have had no problems with my display as of yet, but I haven't had it for a long time. My impression was that the panels are exceedingly hard to build, with a low success rate. Other suppliers are starting to emerge, but Lucky Goldstar is still top dog, selling their panels to big names like Sony.

>>4895090
>Doesn't OLED still have issues with blue pixels fading twice as fast as red and green ones? Not sure I've trust it after having owned many smartphones which faded to yellow over a couple of years.
LG OLEDs do not work like this.

>>4883592
I have owned the gamut of ALL the fancy CRTs over the years. NEC, Sony, Mitsubishi, Wells Gardner, Sanwa, Nanao, etc, etc, etc. Too many to count, really. And seen hundreds and hundreds more.

As of today in 2018 I am no longer planning on buying any more CRTs in my lifetime. I am through with them. I am getting pretty well through with the 80s and 90s as far as /vr/ goes.

But what I am excited about finally dipping into? Plasma.

>>4895308
>>4895326
I heard that the only way to solve it was to make the blue cells twice as large as the other colours then under-drive them as a last resort to extend their life.

Personally I think the technology is doomed to be a stopgap. Focus should be on developing scanning laser systems which would eliminate the whole fixed-pixel problem and act more like a CRT. SED/FED was pretty much a dead end too.

>>4895380
Start buying up 8th to 10th gen Pioneers and Panasonics. I too have a cache of the finest CRTs ever made and won't be letting them go any time soon but I wouldn't ditch my PDPs either.

>>4895406
It's funny that you have opinions about the viability of a technology that you don't even have a basic understanding of. LG OLED TVs don't use colored OLEDs. The OLEDs are all white, with a color filter over them. All the OLEDs degrade at the same rate.

The main thing holding back the adoption of this massively superior technology is people like you spreading FUD based on a phone you used 5 years ago.

>>4895415
>massively superior technology
>fixed-pixel array

Okay

>>4895421
Show me a single sign of life of the development of any sort of non-fixed-pixel display technology that has any hope of being ready for mass production within the next quarter-century.

Besides, it doesn't even matter. Once pixel density gets high enough, the disadvantages of fixed-pixels are irrelevant. The problem will be brute-forced away before anybody develops your imaginary laser scanning display.

>"The Perfect Black now gives you a portal into that world as opposed to a display of that world… with the LG OLED TV.”

>“It's the Perfect Black. And the infinite contrast you get just makes everything pop off the screen. It's incredible.”

>“With HDR, for me it all comes down to the power of light and how to control it. How black is the black and how pure is the white? new content as it rolls out HDR is a good feature to talk about, but should be lower down in the order of appearance.”

Really makes you smell the glove

>>4895428
What a depressingly Luddite outlook.

Do you not look upon DLP's microscopic mirrors literally grown on silicon in wonder? Does the very stuff of the Sun captured in every tiny PDP cell not excite you? Are you not amazed that 8k images could be generated on 5" monochrome CRTs 30 years ago?

OLED is throwaway crap just like TFT before it. Wake up and smell the Kimchi.

>>4895308
Well yeah OLED is really the future and I think that the reason a lot of plasmas have higher delay than gaming LCDs is just that they're generally older

>>4895308
I'm concerned about the organic parts of the OLED degrading and the looking really grey.

I'm waiting to see the evolution or if I get an alternative display.

>>4887014
That's because you got a fucking samsung plasma, not a panasonic.

My Panasonic Viera GT25 had a measured input lag of 12-13ms (using OSSC's input lag measurement mod).

It also does proper 240p (even does Neo Geo fucked up 238p at 58hz), and has EVERY input you'd want except s-video (including VGA, which accepts SCART to VGA signal adaptation)

The tier list is:
CRTs (the king)
Good OLED (with hybrid scanlines, it's the closest to a real CRT)
HDCRTs (shares tier with good OLED)
Good Plasma
Bad OLED
Good LCD
Bad LCD
Bad Plasma
CRT Projector
DLP
Rear Projection TV
LCD Projectors

>>4895549

I thought Plasmas take a full frame due to how they refresh. 12-13 ms seems a little fast.

>>4895467
You're a fucking retard.

>>4895549
So what model tvs are good oleds

>>4895661
LG oleds 2016 and later with current firmware.
2 months ago, I would have said 2017 and later, but they just patched a color problem on the 2016 models and fixed HDR game mode.

>>4895639
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/167-plasma-flat-panel-displays/1166196-official-plasma-input-lag-thread.html

They tested it at 15MS using the laptop/plasma dual screen timer.
I tested mine using the OSSC hooked up to a photo diode, where the OSSC generates a white box that triggers a button push when it shows on screen.
It's FAR more accurate.
http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?title=OSSC_latency_tester

>>4893878
Because when a tard is wrong a tard is wrong. Regardless of who they are or who they LARP as.

>>4895839
>when a tard is wrong
Heh

We should probably get the discussion back onto plasmas now.

>>4894046
>I laugh at people
I don't think you've laughed in years.

>>4896343

Au contraire. I haven't been able to stop laughing since Trump took office.

>>4883592
saw this same post on crtgaming :)

>>4896267
"We" are discussing the reasons plasma is shit and pointing out the fallacies of the only mentally challenged kid ITT who can't see those. But nice try at deflecting flail kid.

Any experience with Hitachi/Fujitsu ALiS panels? The tech looks interesting and certainly overcame some of the big shortcomings of early plasma displays but do they hold up in any way or best avoided?

>>4895681
what about sony's a8f and a1e, they use lg panels