/vr/ - Retro Games

Whenever I go back to play the classic Sonics, I'm transported back in time, when Sonic Adventure didn't exist, when the internet wasn't mainstream, when "fandom" wasn't a word I knew.
So, to me, no, fans can't ruin my own memories and experiences with Sonic.

I never cared for Sonic, always thought that he was Bart Simpson in a fursuit and that his games were average at best, but I'll be damned if Chris Chan and Richard Kuta didn't make me not to want to play these games even more.

>>4827871
nostalgia hits me so hard when i hear green hill zone's theme.
nothing can ruin that.

>>4827871
Sanic

>>4827858
i agree to a point: sonic fans made the recent version released on steam.. and it's fucking garbage. im sure as fuck glad sonic weeaboos didn't have anything to do with the earliest versions, before the franchise was ruined by sega themselves. but if you're looking for someone to blame: blame sega for their disastrous ideas for sonic games.

>>4827885
mariotehplumber is even worse, he's cwc with Tourette's on crack

Sonic fans saved the franchise last year. Imagine no Mania but Forces still comes out, lol. Ridiculous.

>>4827916
that dude is a troll, CWC and Kuta are the real deal

>>4827858
>two pupils in one eyeball

>>4827858

A Sonic fanboy made ports which are considered the best version of three of the original games, and also worked on Sonic Mania. The game is rather good.

>>4827957
His Sonic CD remake lacks the timer reset mechanic though.

>>4827871
Boom.

there is no article. i mean god.

>>4827961

True, but it's barely a sacrifice when the vast majority of the rest of the game is improved; the widescreen and special stages especially.

>>4827858
why don't you talk about video games you faggot

>>4827858
Done.
No amount of 4chan contrarianism of YouTube bandwagoning can make this anything but a success story.

If I were to say what really knee-capped Sonic as a franchise, I'd say it's a large mix of things and factors:
- Sega being TOO ambitious and trying to expand 3d gameplay before they perfected Sonic's movement and the environments his movement works in.
- The failure of the Dreamcast sending them in to a scrambling state to do whatever they could to stay afloat
- Sonic Team just being tired of making Sonic and needing to take more "breaks". There should have been more Billy Hatchers and such, while Sonic was being tuned and perfected, but that couldn't happen since Sonic was the workhorse and needed to bring in the dough.

I can only guess as I'm not a game designer, just a random consumer, but it just seemed like at some point, Sega was just throwing things against the wall to see what worked, and that caused more problems than what they could imagine. Even Sonic Mania can be seen as another extension of this: Seeing if a set of super dedicated fans could make their dream game profitable. In this sense, SonicRetro is a miracle land, and are more valuable than the drama hounds who use the Sonic fanbase as ripe pickings for lulz.

>>4827907
>i agree to a point: sonic fans made the recent version released on steam.. and it's fucking garbage.
Those aren't the Taxman ports, those are emulations. The Taxman ports aren't on Steam, they're on mobile.

>>4827871
You're referring to stuff that actually happened and exists no matter what though

What if I don't like the Sonic games but I enjoy the community and the meme culture surrounding it?

>>4828136
Yeah, but because later things came to be, it doesn't negate the good times I had (and still have) in times prior to these things happening or existing.

It's a Japanese franchise that no Japanese person gives a fuck about. Really weird stuff.

>>4828136
How does that affect how we feel about Sonic though?

Sega and Sonic Team ruined Sonic, lack of focus and communication, not making a 32-bit release because a Sonic game just had to show off the system and Xtreme would have likely turned out to be like Sonic CD but unfun so everyone lost interest.

Honestly the franchise should have ended with the first Adventure game with only the occasional "come back" and spin off (unleashed would have been MUCH better received this way), SA2 is to blame for everything that went wrong with the fanbase after all and it really didn't do much except being either too linear in fast levels or too open in hunting ones.

Sonic fans are awful, obviously, but the switch to 3D ruined Sonic.

>>4827907
If you're talking about Mania you're either trolling or certifiably insane. It's great.

>>4828173
isn't zelda in a similar position to that?

>>4828198
that sounds like Metroid.

Nope, it was Sega that did that.
They couldn't pick with a direction and stick with it. You could argue that this is a result of a faction of the fanbases complaining, but Sega didn't have to try to please everybody. They should have stuck to their guns and just improved what they were familiar with instead of stumbling into new directions and fumbling back into old directions that they forgot how to do right.

>>4828189
I could be wrong but most of the insane furfags that we (correctly) associate with the sonic fanbase showed up or at least became most prominent after the adventure games where you had a dramatic story and normally proportioned human characters. I'm sure there were some fetishists who managed to beat off to the original games but they definitely had less to go on back then

>>4828207
Anon...

>>4828207
So is it a possible case of a story destroying what would have been otherwise a serviceable and possibly good set of games by creating a fanbase which influenced the developers to cater to said fanbase rather than focusing on the mechanical elements and refining those?

>>4828213
Those didn't had an influence on the development of the games though, there's a reason that game where sally appears was cancelled, other ones made in America like Spinball at least had more universal appeal and they knew it.

>>4828238
Point thoroughly missed, way to sink it.

Rick and Morty fans ruined Rick and Morty. Invader Zim fans ruined Invader Zim. Undertale fans ruined Undertale.

>>4828256
You can enjoy all of the things you listed without interacting with fans.

I know this because I like all 3.

>>4828259

No. The moment there is a cringy fandom, the work is ruined forever.

I dunno, I enjoyed Sonic adventure 2. That game was a huge part of my childhood, and I would still enjoy if they brought the Chao stuff back. Haven't liked a single game since Sonic adventure 2 though.

>>4828268
> That feel when I like Smash Bros and Smash likes but I'm not allowed to be positive about it because anon is eternally butt blasted about Melee players.
> That feel when I like SHMUPs but can only like certain ones because SHMUP fans can get super elitist.
> That feel when I like Kemono Friends but hate lolicons and the type of faggots who shitpost using cute girls and ruin boards for everyone.

>>4828187
>adventure
>not Jam

>>4828198
Not at all.
Punch-Out is the one that japanese don't even know exist.

>>4828283
>That feel when I like SHMUPs but can only like certain ones because SHMUP fans can get super elitist.
I make most of the threads here (including the general up right now) and I'm not like that. Unfortunately, a couple of /vg/ fuckers have to always come and ruin the fun.

>>4827858

'merica ruined sonic in the first place, the retarded fans came after

>>4828329
> Not liking SatAM continuity
> Not liking Robotnik

>>4827858
fans wanted to see sonic with a gun, so instead of telling them to fuck off they made shadow the hedgehog.
I also think fans could've helped by not buying the shittier 3D games.

>>4827885
>>4827907
holding the super-autists against sonic is unfair. Chris-Chan also liked pokemon and yugioh, nobody gives them shit.

>>4827858
No, Sega ruined Sonic.

>>4827858
No. Sega did. Sonic fans aren't the ones making the shitty sonic games anon.

>>4828357
>fans wanted to see sonic with a gun
I can't speak for all the fans, but what I wanted was Adventure 3. And instead I got 2006.

>>4828349
>not being a faggot

Your point?

>>4828319
>>4828205
Dunno about you but I always hear about how Zelda is as popular in Japan as FE is in the US, mostly due to it being too Tolkienish and not being turn based

>I can't like a game because I spend too much time trying to talk to people on the internet instead of playing the game
I don't really spend time trying to talk with you /vr/, /vg/ or /v/ retards on the internet, and I'd disable YouTube comments with some extension again if I felt like it. I don't have a life outside the computer, but I sure as hell wouldn't waste my time communicating with or looking for the community for an extended amount of time when I can actually play a game and ignore you.

Sonic was fairly shit to begin with. No one mentions the Master System or GameGear titles for this reason, but Sanictards refuse to admit it.

Although, this is a good reason to dig around a systems' unspoken-by-/vr/ titles and modern freeware, for if you find something you like, there's almost no one talking about it.

>>4828136
Who gives a god damn fuck?

I have no idea where the Sonic franchise went after S&K and honestly, I don't give a shit. 3-D games scare me.

It's the sonic fans who made the actually good ports of the sonic games and sonic mania. So sonic fans saved sonic, tbqh

>>4828550
Well I heard Breath of the Wild sold well in Japan, as did Ocarina of Time. They aren't unpopular, just not as popular as they are in the US. I would say more popular than Fire Emblem is in the US.

>>4829082
> Sonic was fairly shit to begin with. No one mentions the Master System or GameGear titles for this reason, but Sanictards refuse to admit it.
Sonic on the Mega Drive/Genesis predates Sonic on the Master System/GameGear. I'm not sure what you're aiming to prove, but the only thing I see is that you don't know how to look up dates.

That said: I don't see much talk about handheld stuff in general. There's rarely even talk about stuff like Donkey Kong GB, which is an excellent game, or even Super Mario Land 2. If it's not Pokemon or Zelda, it may as well not exist, it seems.

>>4829092
...Reality, namely.

>>4829506
You forgot Wario Land, I rarely ever hear anybody talk about those when it comes to portable games

>>4832127
that's because most of the userbase of this board are:
> born after 2000
> clueless cunts whos only experience with gaming is via popular games they see via what their favourite e-begging, cock sucking attention whoring youtubers are playing.
> compulsive liars, mostly american (surprise surprise).

>>4828526
06 was basically adventure 3, they just didn't finish it.

I unironically enjoy it, but I appreciate it more like a film that's so bad it's good.

>>4827858
Sonic ruined himself by existing, that's his crime, it's also his punishment

>>4827858
Counterpoint: The work exists outside of it's fans and it's your choice to ignore them or not.

Just play sonic games if you like them.
If your discomfort with the other people who like the same thing you like makes you not like that thing, maybe you weren't really into it to begin with.

>>4828349
American Robotnik is trash. Its decapitation is merely an fatlord sedentary enraged that shows to be lazy all the time, which is quite different to the japanese Robotnik, not to mention the fact he has no lens for some reason and wrong clothes.

And let's not forget the awfulness, that is american Sonic, where even the headquarters of SEGA localized on Japan completely disapproved the redesign.

I'm really glad Adventure was responsible for finally maintaining a worldwide representation of Sonic that respects the visions and the hard work of Yuji Naka and Naoto Oshima.

>>4832487
Obviously this. I think /vr/ in general just has a huge grudge against Sonic, even for his Genesis games for some reason.

>>4832635
> American Sonic is shit
> Implying your first game wasn't Sonic Adventure

>>4828254
I knew about the archie comics interpretation of sanic while I was writing that first post but didn't mention it because he's right, it wasn't the focus of anything and even back then was considered a kind of separate from the continuity in the games. I'm sure there were some furries who were super into it but they weren't the face of the community yet

>>4832648
Sonic Adventure WAS my first game, and you would think I would prefer american Sonic since he correlates more to modern Sonic in means of personality than classic Sonic.

Guess what: I don't. I may think SATAM was a good show, but I can't call it the perfect cartoon, and even say it's better than Sonic OVA.

>>4827858
Those fanfricks with their adventure fantasies.

>>4827858
>people talking about sonic games after S&K
u wot

>>4832635
I honestly think AoStH Robotnik has one thing perfectly inline with original JP Eggman, his ego. AoStH Robotnik thinks he's the greatest thing on Mobius, and that anyone with half a brain would be overjoyed to live in a world ruled by him. Then there's all his garish, self-promoting weapons and fortresses, not dissimilar from Eggmanland or Eggman Empire. Milton Knight did an interview where he describes Robotnik as "incredibly excited about the fact that he exists". I think that fits Eggman to a T.

Its entirely Sonic Team's fault over twenty years ago.

>No real Sonic game on the Saturn
>No good Sonic game on the Dreamcast

After 1995 Sega continuously screwed up and thats it.

>>4827858
The Sanic and Ugandan Knuckles shit are for losers to obsess over. It doesn't change the fact that Sonic The Hedgehog on Genesis is one of the best games ever made. It is the definitive 16-bit title. If you have favorited ANY of the Sonic games made in 3d, then yes you are retarded and you're not a real Sonic fan.

>>4833163
>If you have favorited ANY of the Sonic games made in 3d, then yes you are retarded and you're not a real Sonic fan.
Fuck you Heroes is great, and while I may think the rest of Sonic's 3D games are shit it is stupid and frankly immature to say that anyone who enjoys them is "not a real fan."

The fans didn't make bad games, Sega did. A lot of other franchises also have cringy fanfiction and fanart without being "ruined" by it.
Sonic just feels like it's been on life support for the past 20 years, like it's being forced to still exist. It feels like it was a product of its time, as opposed to Mario who feels more timeless.

>>4833697
>It feels like it was a product of its time
Do you mean the games or the character of Sonic? If the latter then I have to agree, the "WHOA '90'S ATTITUDE" shit feels pretty dated

>>4828283
>TREASURE? MORE LIKE "PLEASURE THEY STOPPED MAKING GAMES"

Blaming the community instead of people who actually control the franchise is a very strange phenomenon. I'm not sure if it's just ignorance or extreme attachment to corporations that provokes a defensive mechanism - it reminds me of Disney fans who think eternal copyrighting is completely okay and that other people are to blame for the severe damage to the public good and creativity such acts will result in.
People who like Sonic are in no way responsible for the shitty games that Sonic Team puts out, and the bad decisions they continue to make. The most baffling thing about it, for me, is that they'll figure out how to make Sonic's movement and controls work in one game, then completely disregard it in the next one. They seem to have no concept of improving on previous design and want to start from scratch every time. As long as this continues, it won't matter if e.g. Generations is a good game if we just get more shit afterwards.

>>4835109
The demand is very important, since it impacts how later games are made. In a long running franchise, if a fanbase turns to shit then the product does so as well to adapt to them.

sanac ruined sonic

>>4833730
That was only marketing in the west. His creators imagined him as a "cute" character.

>>4827885
>always thought that he was Bart Simpson in a fursuit
So you knew what a fursuit was when Sonic was first released?

>>4827916
Dude imagine if Mario was in real life he would be such a druggie lol

>>4832139
> You will only see 1 Magi-Nation thread in a 5 year period.
Stings a little. Must be way worse for Game Gear and NeoGeo Pocket bros.

>>4828514
Reminder that they made several other attempts at killer apps post-Genesis like NiGHTS and JSR, but Sonic just proved to be too popular among their fanbase, so the others were flushed out. I can’t tell if I should be mad at Sega for pushing the classic trilogy too aggressively, or at the fans for not wanting change.

>>4833163
So you don’t even like 2, CD and 3? I’m starting to have doubts over whether YOU’RE a Sonic fan.

>>4833678
It’s obvious 90z kid b8 m8. Either that, or Sammy’s old enough to post here.

>>4836969
I phrased that wrong, really should've said "Bart Simpson as ananthropomorphic animal"

I don't think they ruined Sonic, but rather the community. The first two games will always be fun to me, but it's no use trying to start a conversation about them or Sonic in general. But, at least to me, it's the same thing for everything else even remotely popular.

The only people I REALLY enjoy talking to about video games are those dad kind of guys who are all much older than me. They're always really euphoric and nice about it, like "Oh man, yeah, sure I remember that! Still love it, well, except for the water stages, haha!". Wish I knew more dads

inb4 blue arms

>>4839971
Sonic's design is the least of his problems desu

>>4835109

Look up some Iizuka interviews for the answers and to give yourself an aneurysm. The reason this keeps happening is the lead director of Sonic Team is dead-set on making a Sonic game that "appeals to everyone". He isn't interested in the core fanbase and if the sales aren't red hot right out of the gate, he hits the reset button and tries something else. It's been happening for well over a decade and it literally just happened again with Sumo Digital's SEGA Racing series becoming a Sonic-only Mario Kart clone.

>>4840037
>"appeals to everyone"
I fucking hate this. Not the mindset of normies, but how companies see them as sheep that’ll buy the most basic shit possible. It’s a miracle Sonic Mania came into existence, and it’ll be a bigger one if future fans are competent and passionate enough to make tribute games to the other eras.
*sitcom laugh track

>>4827871
Fpbp
Zeph, is that you?

>>4827858
Sega ruined Sonic.
Proof: It is a historical fact that Sega ruined not just Sonic, but its whole fucking console business that used to be #2 in the industry (and easily #1 in some regions of the world).

>>4828127
>Sega being TOO ambitious
Two years after SM64 is not ambitious at all, let alone "too" ambitious.
No, Sega just had bad designers and/or producers that thought shovelware would sell on brand name alone.

Don’t forget the Furries as well

>>4828014
>mfw I seen the full image of this crop before
What is it about a blue hedgehog and his friends that attract so much degeneracy?

No. Sonic Team ruined Sonic.

You only have to look at the cinematic sequences in Sonic 3 / S&K to see the taking-itself-way-too-seriously tone that Sonic Adventure solidified was already beginning to develop even in the genesis days, and you only have to look at Chaotix to see that the trend of adding unnecessary and weirdly-designed characters to the cast was already in motion a the better part of a decade before you heard the word 'fandom'.

Sonic Team ruined Sonic, they dropped the ball, and if you look, you can see that they started fumbling way sooner than people noticed.

>>4836943
did you see that early manga with Sonic in a rock band and shit
Sonic always had 'tude. He's still supposed to be cute, but Sonic from the early days got more and more attitude, and that was coming out of Sonic Team themselves.
by S3&K, Sonic is straight up a shonen protag

>>4841115

The ultimate irony is Mania's reception proved normies just wanted to play a fun, retro-style Sonic game all along. Some dude that recreated the Sonic engine for fun ended up making the game Iizuka had been shooting for since Heroes while nobody but hardcore autists will touch Sonic Team's games anymore. He just doesn't have a single clue, I have no idea why he's still director.

Both Sega and the vocal toxic part of the fan base ruined Sonic

I remember sometime around the release of heroes sega doing an online questionary to make a spin off with a secondary character.
Shadow won by a landslide, and that was the moment everything we t wrong.
Both the devs and the fans took a wrong turn.
I voted for him as well, believing it was an easier task rather then doing a Knuckles full 3d game, and so they could polish the speed levels from adventure a little more.
Boy I was wrong, now 3d sonic and most of the younger fans are a lost cause.

>>4844091
You only have to look at the cinematic sequences in S3&K to see that you're an idiot. And look at Sonic CD and Sonic 2, to notice that the trend of adding new characters was there all the way in the beginning. It's almost as if the mere existence of story and Sonic's friends is irrelevant, and it's what you do with them that counts.
>>4835109
It's bizarre, you can look at the sequence of terrible game releases as a story of Sonic Team listening to the fans, and constantly getting it wrong anyway. They either take the wrong lesson from it, or fuck up unrelated things. I'm pretty sure people who wanted a Shadow game didn't want Shadow the Hedgehog, with its janky shooting, stupid win conditions, idiotic story, and forcing you to play the same stages over and over.
Or Sonic 06, which was basically Sonic Adventure 3, except they ruined everything about it by not finishing it and having a story that required Sonic to romance a human girl.
Or Sonic Unleashed, where they took the "too many friends" criticism too far and so turned Sonic into a werehog. Hey, you're playing as Sonic the whole time right, that's what fans wanted, right?
Or Sonic Generations, where the solution was to play as two Sonics, so this way you can get the day stages everyone asked for, and classic 2d Sonic again, and always play as Sonic. Too bad there was all that filler and the styles were getting old.
Here comes Sonic Lost World to change it up! Oops, it wasn't well done mechanically, so people say it's TOO different.
The problem is Sonic Team doesn't look like they're interested in Sonic. Without any passion they keep fucking it up forever.

>>4844091
>Shadow the Hedgehog onward sucks!
It has the same tone as the first couple 3D games
>Alright, Sonic Adventure onward sucks!
Half of it’s pretty much 3&K translated into 3D
>Fine, Sonic 1 is the only good game
Labyrinth Zone exists.
>...fuck it, Sonic Was Never Good
It’s very easy to connect the dots across the series’ timeline and notice that there were seeds plotting Sonic’s doom from day one. That’s simply because it was a franchise that only needed to exist for 3 or 4 years creativity-wise, but eventually became Sega’s Spongebob.

>>4827907
Mania?
Mania was perfect. I fuckin hate Sonic and only like the classics but Mania was like a 9/10.

>>4827871
This tbqh. Nothing can ruin Sonic for me, not Deviantart, not Sonic Boom, not anything. Sonic occupies this prestine space in my brain, when life was simple and you came back home from school to fire up that Genesis and gaze in awe are the sensory explosion that was Green Hill Zone. It's like a childhood friend.

>>4827858
Mania.

In gr 10? 11? I used to come home from high school and smoke weed laced with pcp and play 1, 2, 3, 3 and k and that will never ever go away. Kinda gave up on actually playing games after high school but my life hasn't really improved in the last 20 years So i still come to read these threads. Wtf am i doing

>>4828259
It works. I do this. Problem solved for me.

>>4827858
I blame Penders.

Ruined how? Like, devs appealing to Sonic fans ruined the series? Maybe, but pretty much every series from that era that still exists today has been ruined so it's hard to prove that it's Sonic fans specifically that ruined Sonic.

>>4828127
I don't think there's a better fan game sucess story then this. Now all sega need to do is keep pumping this shit out and I'll be happy. They can stop making sonic games today and I'll be satisfied because there are so many goat fangames for me to contend with. It be like asking for another goat doom map there's just a see of good shit for gaymers to play so there's no reason to ask for more.

>>4827858
I love how they haven’t yet.

I'm going to be contrarian and say that Sonic fans are the best thing about Sonic and the best video game fanbase. Unlike a lot of fans, Sonic fans create stuff instead of mindlessly consuming; not just furry porn and donut steel characters (which are hilarious in their own way) but funny comics, memes, and games that are actually fucking good. What do Final Fantasy fans do with their time other than buy and complain about shit while having pretentious opinions about scenario writing and game design innovation?

>>4832652
The problem with this thinking is it assumes that the 90's Sonic fanbase actually played Sonic games.

A good joke you could make about the 90's fanbases is that Sega fans would never admit to playing Sonic games, while Sonic fans would never admit that they didn't. There will always be a big divide between Sonic fans and retro Sega fans for this reason.

>>4840037
It makes sense, appealing to everyone is basically what Sonic is supposed to be good at. The problem is that Sonic Adventure style games aren't very good and their experimental games are even worse. This is why I think they should stop making Sonic games and start making Blaze games.

Why are Sonic the Fighters 3D models so fucking good?

Gonna get some massive heat for this but I think the Sonic Twitter is one of the many reasons for Sonic being considered a joke now. Sonic is just a big meme now and while it's been that way for a long time, I don't really approve of Sega actually embracing it. They don't seem to have much in the way of self-respect anymore when it comes to Sonic.

>>4850326
So, with Ray joining the exclusive "Appeared In At Least Two Games" club this next Month, who's the new most obscure Sonic character?

>>4851674
Mecha Sanic.

Not to be confused with his shittier cousin, Metal Sanic.

>>4850326
The flat colors works from the technical limitations pretty well

>>4829506
>Sonic 1 gets released
>Shitty portable titles ensue
>Sonic 2 gets released
>Shitty portables ensue
>Pic related is when the main series started getting worse

>>4847338
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Can't argue with that, OP. Amerifats ruined NES for me and sometimes when I look at my SNES I think
>fucking burgers