/vr/ - Retro Games

>>4804424
>Is the average person too dumb to enjoy the feeling of freedom you get in these games?
freedom means you can do silly things that the devs didn't intend, which ruins the immersion.

all games should be standardised movies where everyone gets the same experiences.

>>4804424
Actually, yes. I don't have a source for this because it's ancient knowledge for me, but I've heard from many places over the years that the average person will get paralyzed by too many choices. This is why the United States boiled down to a two-party system—people like choosing "red" or "blue."

>>4804441
Perhaps the popularization of gaming as a hobby ruined these type of games? Desperately trying to break even on a game made for everyone seems to be the new norm and it makes me sad.

>>4804443
Imagine being too dumb to realize that a plethora of choices = more replay value.

The human race was a mistake.

>>4804424
>Immersive
>Sacescumming simulators

>>4804445
maybe you missed the whole "ableist cuphead" spectacle (you're lucky if you did).

basically, it's unfair if different players get different experiences from the same product. games should be completely streamlined, and impossible to lose at.

>>4804453
>"ableist cuphead"

My god, I just looked that up. It seems like 4chan parody. If this is real life we are all doomed as a species. You sure this isn't just an epic troll that's been latched onto by the "gaming media"?

>>4804453
>>4804465

God I hate people. It's almost like there are different games for people who value different things in their games.

Lets try to be positive. ITT post your favorite immersive sim and why its your favorite.

Deus Ex is my favorite and its the mix of the aesthetic and the fact that I can become a sneak god and break into anywhere. The idea of a Neo from the Matrix looking guy sneaking around at night with sunglasses and a trench coat is too funny to not enjoy.

>>4804453
>games should be completely streamlined, and impossible to lose at.
You mean, even more than they are now? How much more can games be dumbed down at this point?

I don't know exactly what an "immersive sim" is supposed to be, but I'm in the middle of a Morrowind playthrough and enjoy roleplaying as an Altmer Atronach mage with rooms full of books, scrolls and alchemical equipment. Armor is for subhumans.

>>4804492
>I don't know exactly what an "immersive sim" is supposed to be

>first person
>open-endedness (may or may not be open world)
>more objects with actual function, less backdrops
>many ways of interacting with the world

for me, the best is Thief. total freedom of movement: several movement speeds, ability to lean in any direction, ability to climb reachable ledges (completely non-contextual), ability to attach climbable ropes to any wooden surface (also non-contextual). the levels are huge and open ended, with several ways to approach each situation.

>>4804504
You're forgetting about the savescumming. That alone kills any possible "immersion" these have IMO, I'm more immersed when focused on an actual hard game

>>4804492
This seems to be a pretty good summery.
https://www.giantbomb.com/immersive-sim/3015-5700/

I know it might not be retro, but I really enjoyed Dishonored. The Lovecraftian themes made the steam punk stuff not welding-goggles-on-top-hat cringy and it took the freedom of movement from Thief and jacked it up by adding Blink and Possession powers.

>>4804509
>>4804452

>brainlets who have no self control

It's not my fault you cant resist pressing F9.

>>4804452
>>4804509

Oh no I have to load my game. Surely this is the game designers fault.

>>4804514
No, these games are designed with that crap in mind. I tried playing Deus Ex without saving at all, but it's long as shit for that and you have to play in a very restrictive way, you can't try anything in fear of dying.

>>4804518
I also dont think they're designed to never save your game either though.

Moderation in all things.

>>4804516

>>4804521

>>4804520
>Moderation
So yeah, the games are built for savescumming. I hate that lazy piece of shit design appealing to turbocasuals. You guys complain but these games are way closer to modern games than you think, they just have more option to play with.
An actual game sets a challenge and you get immersed in that while you focus, these sims are just playgrounds. If that's what immerses you, fine, but don't start with the "games are too much for dumb people" because they have a built-in save state feature as the only save feature, guess what casuals will do. It's just that casuals will play the ones with the nicest graphics (newer sims)

>>4804527
>because they have a built-in save state feature as the only save feature

So you'd prefer all games have a checkpoint system like the one from Final Fantasy? Or are you suggesting a checkpoint in between every level? You seem to think that loading a save once is scumming, but people who really wanted to save scum would do it whatever type of save system the game had.
The problem isnt saving or loading the game, its the save scumming mindset. And that's really up to the individual person I feel. You're not wrong in your dislike for save scumming but I dont think that developers are to blame. They may be complicit by allowing quick saves/quick loads, but I dont think they design their games around it.

>>4804541
No, these savescummy (by this I mean games without checkpoints) sim games can exist, I just hate this almighty attitude when in the end these games are not about the challenge at all.

>>4804545
You're right about them not being about the challenge, I'll give you that. Anyone who boasts about beating an immersive sim because it was SO HARD GUIZ deserves to be lynched. If I want hard gameplay, I'd play something else. I think the elitist mindset comes from the ability to really settle into a world and know much more about it than someone who just plays through it without paying much attention. The same way people feel superior to tourists coming and fucking about in their city or whatever.

>>4804548
Exactly. These games appeal to the average player even now, it's just that they gravitate more towards the newer, prettier ones. And it's true they've become more streamlined to access a wider audience. But it's essentially this.
If they remade Deus Ex with pretty graphics and no changes it'd be very popular, the game even has memes and you know how that helps now with the kids. This can't be said for many other styles of games.

>why doesn't anyone care about three extremely popular and well-received series?
this meme is dumb

>>4804552
Indeed, wanting these to become even more popular is a monkey paw

>>4804521
>We'll boil his niggers

What did he mean by this?

>saving is for modern casuals
Clearly these people have never played computer games, freely saving and loading was a thing since late 80s dos games, it was a cool feature that consoles couldn't support. It's kind of ridiculous to expect the same philosophy in level design as a 2D platformer though, core PC genres like FPS/strategy/RPG are made with different expectations. I can't really imagine games like Deus Ex without being able to screw around and experiment before loading. It's not a Castlevania game, maybe it's less hardcore but it's a totally different experience.

I do enjoy pistolstarts in Doom/Quake for instance, where I avoid any saving at all, but those have a clear separation between levels unlike later first person games.

>>4804561
I only played on a computer for 3 or more years before touching a console and I still find the "lol let the player save anytime so we don't have to care about anything" approach terrible for actually challenging and interesting games. If you're into 0 challenge sandboxes then OK, but this seems closer to modern casuals to me.
This may be me, I've grown very weary of game design that strays too far from arcade design over the years, have a hard time enjoying this other stuff anymore at all.

>>4804562
Those games are about exploring worlds, building characters and trying out different approaches. That usually comes at the expence of balance, admittedly, but I still enjoy them. Daggerfall is unbalanced as fuck but it's more immersive to me than just about anything today. Open-world is kind of a buzzword now but most games just aren't good at it, the streamlining goes too far. I'm guessing people like OP just appreciate a lot of things from 90s PC game design that is lost nowadays, nothing wrong with that.

>>4804570
>>4804562
I guess it really does boil down to what you're looking to get out of playing a video game. A challange or a narrative (either created by yourself or more linear).

>>4804573
Indeed, I'm not engaged at all with interactive narratives. But that's fine, I just have an issue with this attitude of calling these games "too hard for the masses to get" when they're a hair away from that.

>>4804580
There's more to challenge that just mechanical challenge.

>>4804472
and that's only the tip of the iceberg on why socialism will never work and always leads to totalitarianism

>>4804504
it doesn't have to be first person, does it? The first Witcher game was immersive simish.

>>4804602
Indeed, but these games are not really hard to figure out at all, or at least in most cases.

>>4804617
Except modern economic calculation with computers would be even more efficient at coordinating enterprises than a free market. Socialism in the past had some sucesses but it never reached beyond the level of state-administered quotas and yearly planning, that's very faulty. Nowadays if we wanted to we could coordinate production on a daily level, just have a single guy in an enterprise post inputs and outputs.
Read Cockshott.

>>4804631
Cool, but wrong board

>>4804424
I mean, these games were popular when they came out. They are great, but why would people keep playing the same games for 20 years?

>>4804617
>>>/pol/

>>4804631
>>>/leftypol/

>>4804623
Give a hypothetical modern gen Z gamer a hard arcade game like Contra and he'll get stuck because he lacks skill, give him a game like Fallout or SysShock and he'll get stuck because he doesn't know where to go and what to do without map markers and a floating quest log. There's a ton of horror stories out there about casuals "not getting" classic RPGs. They're both hard for the masses, just in different ways.

>>4804643
I'd say that's not the issue, it's that people getting now into games don't go back to try these, or tht newer games don't follow in the steps of the freedom or complexity of these.
In other mediums, older stuff is usually more respected. With games it' merely seen as a fad.

>>4804640
You're right, I just get triggered since I read economic theory.

How about we talk about game economies in immersive RPGs? I like how Morrowind has many items which nobody can afford at their full price (except a weird talking mudcrab and a daedric spawn). It makes sense to me, and selling your wares becomes another aspect of the game instead of unloading every single legendary set on your billionare village smith. The economy was broken in many other ways, though, but at least it's something. I don't know any other game besides Mount&Blade which really gets into the supply/demand business where you can actually affect prices in faraway towns by blocking trade routes, for instance, or hoarding every piece of grain.

>>4804648
Fair point. Cuphead only needed to be pretty, not so hard and have a bit of progress system stuff to be successful. Same with these, Fallout only needed FPS elements and streamlining to be mainstream now.
It's just that for us these few alterations detract too much from the actual appeal of these

>>4804658
>progress system
is this a new meme?

>>4804663
No, just a quick way to say the game features unlockable stuff or permanent rewards, which is something that goes against arcade design but gets a lot of people addicted to games. If you know a better term, I'll use that

>>4804516
More like I can retry any tiny part of a "game" as much as I want without any restrictions. Surely it's the fault of no talented muh immersion gaijin shitdev.

>>4804631
That's a very large hypothetical there and smacks more of 'WE'VE WORKED THE PROBLEMS OUT THIS TIME', but even supposing you have: that's all fine and dandy until someone goes 'Actually, I don't want that. I want to do something else.' and the planned economy is disrupted. What do you do then? Accept the disruption, ruining your efficiency and providing a competition to your centrally planned economy which will, in time, push you out of the market or crack down?

>>4804669
Or you can just not savescum. Fucking hell, if someone told me two decades ago that instant saves are a bad feature that ruins muh arcade authenticity I'd laugh in their faces. Literally everyone coming from console games thought it's a great and revolutionary feature at the time. Reddit elitists are fucked in the head

>>4804690
The issue is that this approach doesn't work with all games and turns these into something else entirely. Yeah, you don't have to savescum, but you're not expected to never save either. You're always going to end up saving and loading to some extent. The game's balance is fucked up, and so the experience becomes more that of a sandbox of no consequences.
These are not arcade games indeed, though some of us feel this approach of save anywhere can lead to lazy game design

>>4804690
>Or you can just design the game by yourself
Also, the fact that underages are easily impressed by nogamey trash with illusion of freedom doesn't mean anything. It's fun though, that 20 years later you're still a fucking immersion toddler who can't grasp the basics of game design.

>Reddit
le pc gaming masterrace?

>>4804714
Funny you say that as you post a game that arcadefags hate.

>>4804714
Dude, arcade shooters are my favorite games but you're making us fans of those look like pathetic manchildren to the point this seems like falseflag.
If you pay attention, they've already conceded these are not well balanced games and are not enjoyed for for their tight design or challenge. It's a different type of video game. I personally don't find much joy in them, but hey.

>>4804716
Not him but that's the most jerked off shooter by /vg/ weeb kids. Not a bad game by any means, it's actually good unlike 2hu, just saying.
Anyway, the appeal to these is very different. It's like complaining that a visual novel is not challenging. Duh, they are mainly reading.

>>4804653
> I read economic theory.

You want a medal now, Che?

>>4804424
The early ones weren't done nearly as well as the newer ones, and they're too confusing for brainlet/gritlet retro gamers who play only variations of the same platformer and JRPG.

>>4804453
>one nobody posted a opinion and some delicate gamer babies got triggered

>>4804562
>I still find the "lol let the player save anytime so we don't have to care about anything" approach terrible for actually challenging and interesting games.

I personally still find it more rewarding. If you try to play a game like Thief (especially the first few times), you can only "savescum" so much.

Say you need go past a few Hammerites in an area with stone or metal flooring (everyone here probably knows the level), generally it takes the LESS time to have a save at the start of the segment, then studying the guard patterns and moving forward while taking the environment into account, as opposed to savescumming after every few feet or guard you get past. In the latter case you'll be making more mistakes because you don't prepare for the situation, you just hope to succeed in a VERY short term goal of "getting past this one guard" or "getting to the next shadow" before saving. You're more prone to mistakes as well, saving a few milliseconds before a guard automatically notices you - ruining your save - possibly putting you back several minutes to your previous save.

Contrary to console games of the time (or any games with checkpoints), after a failure state, you were often sent back from 2 up to 10 minutes of gameplay, even more if there was an integral cutscene or if the game was loading from disc (PlayStation/PC). Doing this several times (depending on your skill level and the challenge of the situation), you could be forced to waste half an hour on a segment in a game, massively reducing the amount of fun you're having.

To me, beating a segment like this after 30-45 minutes of playing is not a "aww yiss I got it!" moment, but rather a "fucking hell I'm glad this piece of shit segment is over", which makes me appreciate the game much less. The same section with quicksaves, would've been much more satisfying due to the entire lack of infuriating repetitiveness.

Inability to save doesn't make a game more challenging, it makes it more tedious and serves to pad out playtime.

No-save systems are also completely untenable for games where stages last more than a few minutes, or genres like RPGs, strategies or adventure games. The arcade elitism in this thread is astounding, especially considering how save features and adventure games are quite a bit older than Deus Ex. Somehow 80s arcades are more retro than Zork.

>>4804424
>old shool
>immersive sim

>>4806075
I agree with you about these genres, but I also think classic platformers or shmups would be ruined with the ability to save. I like my Megaman, Castlevania etc. to be just as they are, even adding unlimited lives would kind of ruin the balance IMO. Challenging checkpoints are the reason those games work so well. But as you say, it's untenable to make that design stick in an open world game, or even a continuous shooter without level barriers.

>>4804424
Two of those series had new releases within the last three years and the other has two widely praised spiritual sequels that are considered among the best of modern gaming.
The fuck are you talking about?

>>4806075
I guess playing F5-F9 imbecilic trash really thins one's brain. Nobody was talking about having no saves at all, retard. And there's nothing special about the genres you mentioned* that prevents them having checkpoints or any other limited save system that doesn't turn your game in experience for mouth breathers.
*Besides adventures of course, for most of those interactive picture books it doesn't matter at all and they could function just the same with a simple save on exit.

>>4806220
You're a fucking idiot. How would checkpoints even work in Deus Ex? The levels are huge and can take a couple of hours to complete if you explore everything, and the way you approach the objectives is often non-linear. The only way you could introduce checkpoints without breaking the game is a limit on the amount of saves you can make, like in Hitman. That could be good as an optional difficulty setting, at least.
But it's pretty much pointless, the challenge of games like this is self-inflicted (like doing a non-lethal playthrough or avoiding certain skills) or based on detective work and puzzles. Expecting the player to regulate their own experience makes the most sense and is what computer gaming was always focused on.

Honestly, you just sound like someone who needs everything controlled by the programmers to enjoy a game. Do you need a dom daddy to get through the day in your real life?

I love when /vr/ autists defend technical limitations that nobody at the time wanted as revelations. This isn't quite as bad as the guy who was defending loading screens as immersive and authentic some time ago, but still pretty hilarious.

Backtracking levels you've already beaten every time you die isn't challenging, in most cases it's just tedious. Maybe roguelikes are an exception, where it's different every time. If I'm stuck somewhere I'm stuck, whether I can load a save from 5 minutes earlier or have to backtrack through 3 levels I've already beaten.

>>4806248
At map transitions and in tunnels/doorways leading to enemy base type areas when the map transitions would be too far apart. I just replayed the whole game and you could do it pretty easily, it would discourage voluntary backtracking though though which is, or at least the option for which is, a big part of what makes Deus Ex the game it is.

also just generally I usually can appreciate the passion and aggression people bring here but you all need to fucking chill in this thread

>>4806248
At map transitions and in tunnels/doorways leading to enemy base type areas when the map transitions would be too far apart. I just replayed the whole game and you could do it pretty easily, it would discourage voluntary backtracking though which is, or at least the option for which is, a big part of what makes Deus Ex the game it is.

also just generally I usually can appreciate the passion and aggression people bring here but you all need to fucking chill in this thread

Savestates as the only save mechanism in a long game absolutely nullify any challenge that doesn't come from figuring put puzzles or where to go. It 100% trivializes everything else the game has to offer as a game mechanically and not some artsy fartsy crap.
These games could always send you back to a designated point after dying with no need to reload and without them needing to be linear, and leave the savestate feature to enter / exit the game. But it's both easier for them to not care at all about figuring out where to put these points and also casual audiences love savescumming, so it's a win-win.
Also, repeating parts of a game you like because you died shouldn't be an issue if you actually like playing the game. The issue is that a lot of these are very badly designed and their players just force their way through them via savescumming for muh plot, of course they wouldn't want to repeat the same part if all they want is to get to the next plot point, or keep their progress. Challenge is not something they've grown to like.

>>4806352
chow yun fat thumbs up.gif

>>4806352
Then don't savescum, nobody is forcing you to. You probably type iddqd and idkfa immediately when starting up Doom then complain about it being too easy and casualized. That's the beauty of PC games, they let you define the rules for yourself. And no, backtracking is rarely fun.

>>4806365
>Then don't savescum, nobody is forcing you to.
Again, I tried playing through Deus Ex without ever saving. It becomes extremely tedious and limiting.
Then you'll say "just save from time to time". Again, the line is blurry, this is savescumming for me.
I enjoy Doom more because I can start every level from scratch and it's reasonable to beat them without ever saving. I still find it less than stellar due to not as good design (stuff like hitscan is just retarded, I like playing games without ever being touched at all)

>>4806370
try thief. it's fully viable to only save in the beginning of the missions.

>>4806405
Couldn't the same be said about stuff like Deus Ex?

>>4804424
>too dumb to enjoy
Yep. Same with JRPGs, metroidvanias, shmups, etc. Any genre or game you enjoy makes you smarter than everyone not playing it.

The most common reason I see people dislike these games is because they either aren't PC gamers and find the keyboard intimidating, or they enjoy simple pick-up-and-go games. It's never been because they're "too dumb to enjoy the feeling of freedom" and you sound like a cunt for assuming superiority based on gaming preferences.

>>4806407
thief is completely level based. the missions can be pretty huge, but experience will help you clear them faster. there's no freeroam element with accompanying backtracking like there is in deus ex.

>>4806418
>find the keyboard intimidating
This sounds like being dumb lol
I agree on with the rest but wtf

>>4806370
>Again, I tried playing through Deus Ex without ever saving.

That is nothing short of fucking ridiculous, it's like you demonstrated to yourself why saving works the way it does in games out of this tradition in the most direct possible way. The action elements of Deus Ex are all about the weird shit you can do, like dropping a tnt crate off a walkway or getting a karkian to kill enemy soldiers for you, or even just using an explosive to take out multiple enemies. It's not about keeping you at full engagement of your mechanical skill as a player the entire time like arcade type games or Doom, it's more about resource management and exploration/finding ways to avoid combat like the killphrases, environmental kills, or just sneaking by.

I can think of an enemy encounter in it where there's a door and then two guards standing at the end of a hallway, and I just opened it and shot both of them in the head with the pistol perfectly, after that I saved, I did that perfect and should just continue on if I fuck up on the next enemies. I did, if I remember right. I actually also have had my enjoyment of replaying it diminished by forgetting to save and having to replay sections, especially when I get a shittier result and waste ammo when before I got clean kills.

Walking down a path hearing synth music and getting a radio message is something you're meant to experience once or twice maximum, otherwise they completely lose their meaning and basically directly tell you you're playing a game where when you run across this line it plays this audio recording made by an actor, cause it's not real. A game telling a story this way is fundamentally a different experience from taking out the same 4 imps again, and I'll point out even Doom has a small number of areas that are just a room with some spooky shit or empty hallway meant to build atmosphere..

>>4806509
>you're playing a game
That's what I'm doing, yes. Not a problem with that. Fuck this pretentious garbage

>>4804527
>I don't know what 'moderation' means and I'm too edgy for a vocabulary!
Show me a wargame without save feature, you pretentious cocklet.

>>4806567
This moderation crap is just a mess, just means the game isn't balanced at all, has no rules.

>>4806365
>game
>let you define the rules for yourself
The absolute state of PCtards. Saying that PC games aren't really games and being proud of that.

>>4806608
Exactly what I meant here >>4806606

>>4806534
What that means is, if you were watching a movie and would rewind random scenes and saw the same dialog and locations over and over, it would probably take you out of the experience and pretty much ruin the movie. Pure action like you get in Doom or a 2D spaceshooter or something is very different and stands up to repetition much better than an actor reading a line or walking through music and scenery. Plus, if you're truly incompetent you can quicksave all you want, you're not getting through a game like Thief especially without at least plotting out a route through the level. All of the "challenge" in games like this is derived from observing some enemies, figuring out the most efficient or amusing way to destroy or evade them. If you've already killed them all 5 times and then died a second later you'll be having exactly zero fun as you do it again.

If you want to try some ridiculous jump or suicidal tactic, just save and go ahead. Or you can roleplay and play super safe and realistic, sealing in your perfection save by save. The games allow you such a variety of approaches having checkpoints wouldn't work. Like, in Deus Ex if you wanted a checkpoint before you go in to deal with the terrorists who have the subway station wired with bombs and hostages, there are multiple ways you can even just physically approach that on the map let alone the different ways you can try (or not try) to save the hostages, just having a the save set on walking past a certain point would be unnecessarily limiting. In Thief it's normal to spend time scouting out the easily accessible areas and getting a feel for the guards, trying to plan a route deeper in to the target, if you had checkpoints it'd be so easy to trip one in a fashion that made the mission harder to complete in an unrealistic way while you were doing this. It's more about cracking the level than millisecond to millisecond skill.

>>4806671
Except games aren't movies, why compare mediums. Oh wait, game are more like movies to you, aren't they?
It's fun to DO fun stuff repeatedly (to some extent), less so with passive media.
At least you concede these games are badly designed and are enjoyed by superfluous stuff

>>4806685
The only reason someone would be this insistent on limiting the types of experience you can get from a game is diagnosable autism, or desire to argue disingenuously online with in practice is more or less the same thing

If you truly have difficulty enjoying any aspect of a game besides absolutely pure mechanical skill there are other genres that cater to that much better than narrative heavy single player FPS, which yeah, do have some things in common with movies. And I explained at length why save-anywhere is also beneficial if not necessary for purely mechanical reasons. It's not a 2D jap shmup originally meant to run on quarters. Repetition and memorization is pointless when both you and the enemies can and will run anywhere and will do different things each time.

If you think it makes it too easy, do a test. Get someone who truly sucks at videogames to play one of the Thief games. Make sure to point out the quicksave key and encourage them to use it as much as they want. They won't get past the second level.

>>4806608
Arcadefags proving they're ADHD children who need daddy to hold their hand in everything instead of setting their own boundaries like reasonable adults.

>>4806685
If you think it is fun to perform repetitive tasks, you have unironic autism.

Also, how is quicksaving different from credit feeding?

>>4806716
Except your approach to games is what single player games on home systems are right now with few exceptions, just slightly adjusted to be more streamlined. But OK, no need to keep insisting, we just have different tastes.

>>4806718
It's the difference between a soccer match and people just kicking the ball around. The latter can be fun, but it can't match the first, and the difference is that the first has some set rules.
Funny how you accuse people of being ADHD while also making fun of those who want to replay the same game. Doesn't make much sense.
>>4806720
Actually, not much. They're both ways to practice.

>>4806723
No they aren't, fully linear "run through movie setpieces" games like are popular on consoles today work extremely well with and often use checkpoint saves. Games like Deus Ex and Thief, and later Stalker, all attempt to simulate a location you're free to move through however you like. This design is highly distinct from a single path where exciting things happen as you progress along, where there's no depth to the offscreen activity and everything is hand placed to spring out when you run by. When you can place everything by hand and strictly limit the players path you have a better chance of achieving the MOST PERFECT ULTIMATE CHALLENGE so maybe you would enjoy these console shooters more in theory at least.

Trying to simulate a realistic space and behavior is less reliable and can produce silly outcomes but more often it does work, making it feel like a real space and real people, adding to the drama and feeling, which yes these games are very much about and if you feel like that's not an acceptable thing to try to get out of a game idk what to tell you besides play something else.

Complaining that Deus Ex doesn't provide the deepest and tightest mechanical challenge you've ever experienced is like bitching that a 2D shump doesn't have complex enough character development, and you look at least as stupid, arguably stupider than someone seriously trying to argue that when you act like it's some kind of macho thing to not use saves. Come join me in CSGO if you want that experience from a shooter, don't complain that a game with tens of hours of dramatic dialog recorded for it allows players a little leeway with where they want to continue from after a death.

>>4806770
So open world games isn't a huge meme now. Okay

>>4806775
deus ex isnt open world, it's open level
has good level design

>>4806775
How much complex simulation of NPC actions do you think there is in GTA? All of the missions in games like that are very much "run through the universal studios ride, here comes the part with the fire", not simulated enemy bases.

>reading a book
>it has no chapters
>have to regulate when I pause in my reading instead of having checkpoints
Fucking UNBALANCED BULLSHIT

>>4806782
>has good level design
>complex simulation
Wasn't your argument that the game doesn't have good game design because it's not trying to be a good game mechanically?
>>4806784
Now that's a dumb strawman

>>4806794
that was my first post in this thread

>>4806798
Then plenty of Deus Ex's game design is mere fluff since the game is built with only a quicksave feature

>>4806814
Would you be able to deal with a narrative-heavy game if it had checkpoint saves? It would be an objectively worse experience to have to hear the same dialog over and over, ruining it.

>>4806843
>Would you be able to deal with a narrative-heavy game
No, I seek game mechanics from games and narratives in other mediums. Narrative driven games are just bad/mediocre games + bad/mediocre narratives, they don't mix well.

>>4806794
It's trying to be a different kind of game mechanically, this is something else you can do with your computer besides a pure test of reaction speed and knowledge, which is something that you'll have a much deeper experience with in multiplayer anyway.

>>4806849
I don't know what kind of standards you have but if the acting, writing and overall plots of games like Deus Ex and Thief are not satisfactory for you I think they must be very high.

>>4806724
So if credit feeding and quicksaves are pretty much the same thing, then your arcade games aren't any better than the games you're trying to argue against. After all you can just credit feed at any time, removing any semblance of challenge.

>but you aren't supposed to play that way
Yeah that is the point we all are making.

>>4806862
Not that high. These are just pretty generic. And the fact that they come with a game I don't enjoy to fluff it out makes it even less appealing.

this thread is why we need a containment board for shmupfags

>>4806867
You actually probably should quicksave all the time to avoid repeating content. I stand fully by what I said earlier in the thread about a truly shit incompetent player not being able to clear the second level of either Thief game no matter how many times they save.

>>4806871
What do you consider quality fiction? Name a book or movie you think it genuinely worthwhile art

>>4806867
Yeah, it's different.
You can decide to play with one coin and the game is not only built around that, it's a very clear rule. You don't even need to think about it when playing.
"Quicksave in moderation" doesn't mean anything, it's blurry and just leads to savescumming, just less often. Anyway, this will go nowhere since I don't like your games nor you like arcades so...

Unlimited savescumming is a total cop-out on the developer's part. If you have no idea how to balance the punishment for death, why not leave it up to the player? It's not too different from giving the player a super overpowered weapon which you don't NEED to use. But it's there, and there's NO REASON why you SHOULDN'T use it, instead of being turned into a worthwhile game mechanic.

So the difficulty of these games becomes largely reliant on self-restriction, despite the presence of difficulty modes and the likes. However, leaving that kind of stuff up to the player tends to create wildly disparate experiences. One guy claims a game is totally easy because he saved every five seconds, whereas another guy only saved at the start of each level and said it was pretty hard. But because it's never explained in-game how often you're supposed to save, people think savescumming entails a perfectly valid way to play the game, ruining any semblance of the intended challenge and experience. If people want to play the game on an equivalent of being able to save every 10 seconds, they should be playing on Easy. You then end up having to talk to people who claim they beat a game and think they're hot shit for winning through cheesing.

This is why I'm a proponent of manual savepoints as seen in Marathon, short of disabling quicksaves entirely in favor of only saving at the start of each level. For RPGs quicksaving is fine for the overworld but less so for dungeons. It's up to the developer to regulate difficulty and the punishment for death, leaving it up to the player is the very definition of a cop-out.

>>4806890
>2hushit
I'm embarassed of agreeing with you

>>4806896
You post on 4chan yet only this is what embarrasses you?

>>4806905
Who said that's the only thing

>>4806890
>It's not too different from giving the player a super overpowered weapon which you don't NEED to use

this is also in Deus Ex, lol

>>4806935
Well, most people agree (or at least know subconsciously) that the difficulty curve in the Deus Ex jumps off the cliff around Hong Kong.

>>4806884
I like arcades, I'm just not an autistic faggot about them. 1cc is not the rule, it's a self-imposed challenge. It's also pretty clear in most games with on-demand saves when the game progresses and it is prudent to save. Your distinction is fully subjective.

Also the Thief guy is correct. A casual won't beat a hard level even if he quicksaves a lot or feeds 99 credits. They'll likely give up quickly anyway. It's not nearly as much of a crutch as you claim. I wouldn't get any close to winning an Olympic gold even if I could rewind time every time I failed.

>>4806890
So if there are cheat codes or exploits that let you skip hard parts of the game you would use them, and then complain about game design being too casualized. The option is there - why not use it? Why not choose the easiest difficulty, enter debug mode and just clip through every obstacle? It's in the game after all?

>>4806935
Best game cuz muh immershun amirite guise unlike those modern gayms for dumb casuls

>>4806947
I think I've covered pretty well why dying and having to repeat content is bad for immersion

>>4806945
>A casual won't beat a hard level even if he feeds 99 credits.
Yeah... plenty of games don't even send you back, you win no matter what you do. It's even easier than savescumming, you don't even have to try. But apparently not wanting 0 challenge (which is as easy as "one coin", and games are built around that, score resets when continuing) is self-imposed.
Anyway, this is pointless. Deus Ex GOAT, best game design

>>4806945
>cheat codes
Even the biggest retard realizes that cheat codes are, by fucking definition, cheating, and that beating the game with cheat code does not give you any bragging rights. You beat the game, but you did so without learning the mechanics or how you're actually supposed to play the game because you turned god mode on anyways, completely ruining the intended challenge and experience.

The difference between cheats and exploits is that the player KNOWS(/has to know) what cheat codes imply, whereas exploits are more of a gray area. Cheat codes are for fun diversions, not for seriously beating the game unless you decide to concede or just have enough of the game's bullshit. Cheat codes are clearly different from in-game mechanics which completely upset the game balance, and whose purpose isn't made clear by the developers. There's this game called Celeste where the developers added an Assist Mode for people who didn't care for the challenge, but also added a message on top of it saying that enabling it is definitely not how the game is supposed to be played. Making it very clear HOW the game is supposed to be played and doing so through game mechanics or developer messages goes a long way to solve people abusing abusable mechanics without realizing they're abusing it.

>>4806958
Playing for score and 1cc'ing is self-imposed by definition since you can freely complete the game or loop by credit feeding every time. If you had no choice to continue at all it would be "by design"

>>4806972
You're right. Deus Ex >>>> arcades

>>4806958
There is nothing challenging about sitting through dialog or walking across the map to get into position, which are two things that you're going to be repeating over and over the fuck again if you try to play one of these games without saving. This is really different from death affecting a numerical score. You can try to abuse saves by just jamming the key constantly I guess, every time you get in cover or something but try doing this and see if you don't do worse and take longer to beat shit. Exploration and planning is a big part of the gameplay and these things are good exactly once, once you know where shit is there's no reason to have to run through the level again and/or wait in stealth for patrols to pass. Have any of you ever played Hitman Codename 47?

>>4804424
>Is the average person too dumb to enjoy the feeling of freedom you get in these games?
Open word games are hugely popular (eg. Bethesda shit), they're just really shitty because of how casualized they are.

>>4806993
Thief and Deus Ex are traditional level based games, not open world at all.

>>4806991
And this is why Deus Ex is the GOAT, fuck those simple games, you only move and shoot or punch, right guys

>>4806996
idk how you're interpreting that from my response

>>4807000
I'm not, just saying
Also, funny how if you say "this is one of the best games ever" and it's an RPG or Zelda, this place takes you seriously.
But if it's anything else, like an arcade, you're assumed to be a troll. Because these are clearly objectively clearly inferior games, right.
Whatever, I'l stop

Fer not friends, Prey moon DLC is on the horizon, followed by System Shock remake (devs seem to have gotten their shit together and are back to a faithful remake), followed by an actual System Shock 3

At least one of the above should be decent (hopefully)

>>4807008
also I forgot Underworld Ascendant, it's also supposed to be out this year, and is developed by based System Shock 1 devs

Please ignore me >>4807007
and focus on this please >>4807008
Thank you, enjoy your thread (and board), buds

>>4807007
It's a little odd to even want to compare them. What if there was a super technical shump with branching paths and long dialog heavy cutscenes

I don't think it would be popular

>>4807007
also if someone said they consider a zelda the best game ever I would think they were pretty much a retard

>>4807021
>>4807026
Just ignore me. I feel bad for having derailed this too much. I guess game discussion isn't for me, my tastes are too narrow at this point.

>>4804465
check out IGN plays Doom

>>4807051
wait I mean Polygon

>>4806995
Yeah no shit. My point was that freedom of exploration is very popular right now.

>>4804424
Numerous devs have mentioned that it's just too expensive to make stuff that most users will never see. All those games sold well compared to modern indies and anything from small game dev corps. Just not well enough to make up for the cost/time.

>>4806890
I find nothing wrong with self-regulation, although a hybrid system like you described depending on the game makes a lot of sense to me.
What I tried the last time I played Thief Gold was saving at every objective completion. I played on hard, so there weren't as many objectives as extreme, but I found that was a little restrictive during larger missions with fewer objectives, especially when an objective is something like "steal this extra thing" and doing so completes the loot requirement objective. Eventually, I got to a point where I would save before I anticipated a tricky to pull off part, then reload if it didn't go well.
At one point in the haunted city mission, I saved when I got the loot requirement and played about 10 minutes until I got to this section where I could jump or I could shoot a rope arrow into the ledge I was standing on and climb down it. Because Newdark still isn't perfect, I missed the rope arrow 3 out of 5 times until I said fuck it and saved after a successful rope arrow attempt. I see nothing really "wrong" in saving this way.

>>4807589
Should probably mention that jumping would take away all but one shield of health and missing the rope arrow means getting off the ledge and on the rope arrow.

>>4807379
Hate to reply to a tripfag but I think that's just a result of pumping millions of dollars into unnecessarily giant dev teams to make unnecessarily detailed graphics.
This is a problem with literally any product market and can't really be solved, but I think that if the industry barely iterated on Doom 3's level of graphics quality, we would have immensely cheaper and better games. Plus, come on, we thought Doom 3 was about as realistic as you could get barring the human faces back then, now we think that about the graphics in Uncharted 4, and in 10 years we'll think that about VR Cunt Wars. If AAA publishers coordinated to cool their fucking jets once in a while like Nintendo constantly does, even more amazing games could be made.

>>4807618
We've been struggling with the graphics problem pretty much since right after after Deus Ex and Thief came out, remember the sequels for them that came out at the very start of the nonretro era that both had shoebox size levels? I've actually really come to miss the days of sheer walls and painted on textures because it seems like every step up in computer power we get is just used to render the pipes and control panels and other stupid shit you're running past in that much more detail and the actual maps have stayed shitty, tiny, and simple

You do have exceptions throughout the industry, like GTA IV's map was the same size as the map in San Andreas, except actually filled with shit instead of 70% forests and mountains, but in FPSRPGs seem to have fared worse. Idk about any actual measurements but bioshock felt tiny. I haven't played the game they're coincidentally calling Thief that has nothing to do with the classic series but that looks worst of all. Even Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines, a finalist for best game ever full stop imo, had tiny maps. There are people who won't play games unless every piece of trash in the corners is fully realized and physical.

I didn't know there was a name for this genre. I've been calling them "System Shock-likes" for years, I think that describes them pretty well. It fits on games such as Thief and Deus Ex, though now that I think about it only System Shock, Thief, and Deus Ex area games that play like this. Alien: Isolation reminded me of System Shock, but it's obviously little bit more simplified.

>>4804487
Deus Ex is the best. Awesome music, unintentionally hilarious main character, cheesy voice acting, memorable quotes, and overall the ways you can explore the levels and find something new every single time. I'm currently on my third playthrough, this time with GMDX and it's so good. When you finally get to upgrade to full augmentations and get your dragon's tooth sword, you're unstoppable death machine.

>tfw no gf to co-op system shock 2 with

>>4808216
Thief is kind of apart despite have similar roots and philosophy, a lot of the stuff you have to say about Deus Ex and System Shock about items and skills being useless or conversely capable of making enemies that shouldn't be trivial doesn't apply in the slightest to Thief. The player has far less freedom of course, even less in the recommended experience of playing on expert, but they're able to demand a lot more skill and effort put into working out the map because they've determined at least the type of approach you'll take, stealthy. The player's vulnerability is the main thing that separates it. Optional stealth is fun but when you can just annihilate everyone if you're caught it's usually not something I have a ton of patience for

>>4808219
JC is just that deadpan you can't tell when he's being sarcastic. "Does that mean I don't get the job"

Currently tackling Thief 2.

I really like how refined the maps feel compared to Thief 1. Maybe it's just that I actually know how to play Thief in general at this point as compared to my first experiences trying to navigate and learn the systems.

I kind of hope more missions have the knock out limit in place in the future, definitely forces the player to be generally sneakier which is good.

best genre

Nice thread. That anon arguing about how we should approach Deux Ex and Thief is based.

>>4806935
>a super overpowered weapon which you don't NEED to use
What gun is this?

>>4804424
>>4804441
>>4804445
I think the ultimate irony is that the Dues Ex series was killed by Square in order to better make more cinematic, linear interactive movies. For all of HR and MD's faults, they were still true to Deus Ex as best as they could be, even sucker punching the player in ways that other games of the era wouldn't dare to. I wonder if we'll ever get another aRPG tying to tackle that type of gameplay.