/vr/ - Retro Games

>Literally impossible without a guide!"

The manual is a guide, it tells you what to do. It is a factual statement. You are the one with autism

i really miss it when the manual was an integral part of the game's experience.

>>4749374
It gives hints. It doesn't spell it out for you. Next to the whistle, it says "use it and it'll amaze you with what it can do" and next to the picture of a lake, it says "fairies will give Link a whole new supply of life, but these aren't the only secrets to be found"
A guide would say "play the whistle at the lake without a fairy to reveal a staircase."
One is a hint, and one outright tells you. Telling you requires no thought. Hints are like puzzle pieces, and its up to YOU to put them together.
They're not the same.

The attract mode can be missed.

Thread done.

>>4749438
This is a stretch. I always waited on the title screen as a kid, either to hear the title theme play out, or to see what would happen if I waited. I did this on literally every game I played, even when I was only 5 years old. Even now, when I play a new game, I wait to see what will happen.
Besides, it occurs after 8 seconds of idle time. You mean to tell me that you never once set the controller down for 8 seconds on the title screen? To go to the restroom? To answer a phone? To go turn off the lights? That's hard for me to believe.

>>4749363
What about digital copies of the game that have very barebones digital manuals?

>>4749458
That's not how the game was intended to be played. Download a PDF or something.

>>4749459
Apparently it is, they're selling it like that.

You don't need the manual to figure this game out, Christ. I first played this game as a rental and someone had stolen the map. Had no troubles at all except that I didn't wind up finding Level-2 until after I'd beaten Level-3 and Level-4. (The map that came with the manual shows how to get to Level-2.)

Also, Level-7 is supposed to be hard to find. Though you do get an in-game hint "There are secrets where fairies don't live"

>>4749462
This. You get a digital manual of the game when you buy Legend of Zelda on Virtual Console.

>>4749593
Those digital manuals are trash, they don't give you nearly as many of the valuable hints that the real manual has, nor does it have the partial map... And you can't even use it simultaneously while playing the game, you have to go into the home menu

That being said, you absolutely don't need the manual for the game. It just enhances the experience. I wish I would have had one my first time playing.

Really your best bet is to download a PDF of the original manual. The NES Classic has a QR code that takes you to a place to download the manual. Hopefully this is an indicator that their future iteration of the Virtual Console, assuming they're not axing it, will come with more faithful manuals.

>>4749374
Thw manual isn't a guide you fucking rube. It's there to give you the basics of gameplay.

/vr/ has been overrun with kids trying to peddle an alternate reality where no one ever actually played games, just read Nintendo Power. It's fucking bizarre.

>>4749709
Forgive them, but it's all that they have ever known. It's basically the reality they're living now, except substitute reading gaming magazines with watching obnoxious people play the games on youtube.

>>4749709
>/vr/ has been overrun with kids trying to peddle an alternate reality where no one ever actually played games
...or had friends. They act like no one ever talked to each other about videogames or watched each other play before gamefaqs and youtube.

>>4749731
>Forgive them, but it's all that they have ever known.
Sure, I forgive it. Just wish they'd keep their bullshit opinions and revisionism to themselves, though. Would be much easier to forgive if there was nothing to forgive in the first place.

>>4749382
Same. When I was a kid i had some games with manuals the size of a novel and I always looked forward to writing that stuff when I grew up and became a famous game designer.

Well, I did that second part but now the industry sucks and everything is terrible and nobody would notice if you put that much love into a project anyway

>>4749610
This. Nintendo fucked up by not having thr proper manual be downloaded along with the virtual console version. The VC manual tells you how to save and use controls and really nothing else. The manual isn’t necessary to beat the game but it sure helps, and was clearly a part of the original experience or package or whatever.

I love a lot of their games but nintendo is pretty fucking incompetent about the little things a lot of the time. How hard would it really have been to have included scans of the booklets with VC games?

Why do people complain about crypticness in old games? You have the internet, it doesn't matter. You know that old games were difficult so they would take 20 hours to complete instead of 20 minutes, right?

Many of us never had the manuals. We'd either rent the games or get them at yard sales without the box.

A map would have been really helpful. I did eventually beat the game years later as an older teen though.

>>4750831

young gamers are extremely stupid and expect to have everything spoonfed to them. that's why modern games have big blinking arrows telling you where to go and what to do at all times.

However, there is something to be said for your point, that the games were intentionally designed to take a really long time to beat, because back then there weren't millions of games to choose from online that you could instantly download, instead you had to buy a $50 cartridge for each game you wanted to play, so you had to try to get the most out of it.

It's actually very common for older games to integrate the manual into the gameplay experience, although it was an uncommon practice for console games, it was very very common for computer games in the 80's, where you MUST have the manual in order to beat the game, which was often done as a way of preventing piracy, rather than for gameplay reasons

>>4750861
Pic very related

>>4750194
Lol

>>4749382
This. Not only did it allow for depth of mechanics, but it also was a great way of investing you and immersing you in the setting and the game universe before you even installed the game.

>>4750965
Buying a new game and reading the manual on the car ride home was always exciting. Then one day they stopped being manuals and were just safety pamphlets. I still opened the boxes every time, just in case, but there was only emptiness.

>>4750972
Yeah. I remember it just happening gradually over time. I'd open the box, read the manual, but more and more details would be gone; plot shrank to just a blurb, enemies left, as did weapons, in game fluff vanished, tips and tricks left, and the controls themsleves vanished and vanished, until one day I opened the box, saw how small the manual was and all I got was a three pamphlet that said Epilepsy and pirate warnings.

>>4750914
Even more related, since this is an actual real thing and not a mockup.

God damn, it's a fucking game for a reason. Heaven forbid you actually have to think and use your brain. Beat this game with help from my old ass grandpa when I was like 7. If you young faggots think a game like this is impossible without a guide showing you every little thing to do just go fucking kill yourself.

>>4749453
I tried to beat LoZ few years ago and I never saw that attract mode or knew I need the manual.

>actually had this crudely photocopied and glued together on couple of A4 sheets because dad didn't allow writing on the original
only years later I realized why he did that. thanks dad. that aside, this thing really helped for playing the game.

>>4751017
Jesus Christ.

>>4751048
Its an 80s game man, you're always expected to have the manual with only a few exceptions.
Game manuals back in the day had tons of game information that they often could't fit in to the game's limited space.
If you're playing an old RPG or adventure game, always, ALWAYS try to find a copy of the manual online. Most shit has been scanned in to PDFs anymore.

>>4751049

>>4751048
The fuck is "Attract mode"

>>4751090
>>4751049

These have the most valuable tips in the game on them, like it's one thing knowing where to go and all that, that's nice, but telling the player what to kill specifically for certain item drops is really helpful, when I played without the manual and I needed rupees or bombs, I would just kill everything and pray because I didn't know certain enemies were more likely to drop certain items.

I feel like another important tip they should have added was that there are no secrets in areas where there are dungeons or caves already visible, and there are never more than two secrets in an area. I didn't come to this conclusion until I started drawing maps.

>>4751471
>I feel like another important tip they should have added was that there are no secrets in areas where there are dungeons or caves already visible, and there are never more than two secrets in an area. I didn't come to this conclusion until I started drawing maps.

why the fuck would they need to tell you either of those things? if your that lazy you might as well just watch a youtube video of someone else playing the game

>>4751458
Attract Mode is the gameplay demonstration etc which plays when you leave a game on the title screen for a while.
It's derived from the practice in arcade games, including pinball machines etc before video game cabinets, to attract players' attention. Console games continued the practice partly because it's a convention, and partly because it's (still) useful for store displays.

Hope that helps. Welcome to /vr/ by the way, I hope you've been enjoying your first day.

It's not impossible you just have to use trial and error a lot, hell that's what I did for the second play through where everything changes. You just have to love the game and be dedicated. Now if you want to talk about obscure shit you have to do to progress play an old point and clicker from 80's/90's some of that shit is impossible without knowing what to do

>>4752865
>point and clicker from 80's/90's

>>4749363
It's basically essential to read the manual for every RPG released before 1993. So many people think pic related is shit because they never do.

>>4751957
Fuck you.

>>4749363
>please look up the manual for details
What did Link mean by this?

>>4754561
>dead forced meme that was never funny to begin with
>le epic "what did he mean by this" maymay fresh out of /v/
you have to go back

>>4754582
You don't wanna fuck with me nigga
I'm a big tough guy irl
Come say that shit to my face pussy nigga

>>4749390
so, it guides you with hints. sounds like a guide
>>4749709
so, it guides you with the basics of gameplay. sounds like a guide

The manual includes a step by step guide up to the first dungeon, a strong hint to where the second dungeon is, and a map. Very helpful but it doesn't give you any reason to believe burning every bush is a sane thing to do (or even that burning *any* bush does anything, it's not like there's any feedback when you try to burn one).

>>4751589
Not him but fuck off, this game and others make patterns and breaks them. I never expected an old man room to contain a bombable wall, those rooms are (for the most part) treated as rewards or secrets in and of themselves. Then the game breaks that pattern.

If there were two secrets in one room and he’d said that he wasn’t expecting that, you’d be insulting him for making assumptions that the game never really hints at.

It is something that should’ve been in the manual. Knowing there’s only one secret per screen just saves a ton of time.

>>4756606
What you're describing is kind of dumb, since the old man tells you to bomb the wall, but there are legit examples of the game breaking established patterns. The last dungeon has two dungeon items when every other dungeon in the game only has one and one of them is downright essential to complete the game. That's cheap. You could easily grab the red ring, miss the silver arrows, and be unable to defeat Ganon at the end.

The game is still shit and one of the worst zelda games ever.

>>4756617
It's literally one of the best in the franchise. It's EASILY in my top 3, if not my absolute favorite.

>>4756619
>It's literally one of the best in the franchise

KEK

All of the later games improved every single mechanic in LoZ my a huge mile. ALTTP is better in every regard, so is LA and most of the 2D zeldas.

The game is decent, but there are too many flaws that the sequels later fixed.

>>4756623
>too many flaws
Such as?

>>4756628
Clunky attack
Boring dungeons and "puzzles"
Barren overworld
Shops that rip your rupee's off because of obnoxious trial and error early-NES era gameplay
Later dungeons become unnecessary long and every room is a borefast to go through
Bullshit enemies later on and because of your shitty 1 dimensional slice, killing them is harder than it should be

>>4756632
>Clunky attack
This probably the only fair point you've made, but its really not the hard to get used to.
>Boring dungeons and "puzzles"
Boring is subjective.
>Barren overworld
Literally has a secret on almost every screen.
>Shops that rip your rupee's off because of obnoxious trial and error early-NES era gameplay
Don't play them? Nobody is forcing you to gamble.
>Later dungeons become unnecessary long and every room is a borefast to go through
Totally subjective. I love the later dungeons.
>Bullshit enemies later on and because of your shitty 1 dimensional slice, killing them is harder than it should be
You need to git gud. None of the enemies in this game are "bullshit" or unfair. They're just difficult.

>>4756616
Level-8 has two items as well, the book and the key.

>>4756606
You can still prioritize. If you think you've observed a pattern, you can use that knowledge until you're completely stuck, then you double-check your assumptions.

>>4749363
You’re right. But, the first time I beat this game, did it without the manual or a guide. It was super rewarding, and I’m glad I did.

It’s also why I will never trust people who claim it’s too hard.

>>4756637
It's not even clunky really. He's wrong on that point too. The delays are all balanced with the other weapons and equipment. You can throw the boomerang and shoot the arrow with no delays.

>>4756623
>ALTTP is better in every regard,
I love ALTTP so I hate doing this, but I have to object.

ALTTP is more linear and less clever about the non-linearity it does have.
ALTTP's secrets tend to be less satisfying to discover, excepting the fact that ALTTP does have cooler items.
ALTTP is much less challenging, even before you consider blatantly overpowered shit like full-screen damage attacks including one that usually leads to full magic recovery once you have the hammer. Then there's the ability to carry more bombs and arrows than you'll ever need, especially since the game so rarely requires that you spend to bombs to check for a secret. The dungeons are all numbered and labeled on the map for you, taking away the sense of adventure and discovery.
ALTTP has the fucking shovel minigame. I'd rather burn a hundred bushes in Z1 than replay that god damn waste of time a dozen times trying to get the piece of heart. Now, when I replay ALTTP, I try once or twice and if I don't get the PoH, I just leave and never come back.

Of course there's a lot ALTTP does better. The quasi-3D environment is great, it has more depth in gameplay mechanics which facilitates more items, more elaborate puzzles, and more sophisticated and subtle details that add a lot of the experience. ALTTP is a fantastic game and deserves the praise it gets, but is not "superior in every way" to the original.

>>4756713
I just wanted to tell you this is a good post.

>>4756713
>ALTTP is much less challenging
Are we talking about the same zelda 1 where ganon (the final boss) dies after just 1 light arrow?
You have the nerve to call that more difficult than ALTTP?
Are you clinically retarded?

how were you even supposed to find lassic?
impossible without a guide.

>>4756847
One instance does not negate everything else listed.

>>4754582
do you know de wey

>>4756847
>the final boss
>at the end of a grueling, massive, labyrinthine dungeon full of monsters that steal your shield, beam spamming wizrobes, numerous high HP sub bosses, doors that open if you don't kill everything, and only two health potions at best
>and the boss is invisible and still needs to be attacked with the sword (and only the sword, not the sword beams) repeatedly before the killing blow is done

>vs the ganon who lets you retreat, fill up your FOUR potion bottles with all the healing you could ever need, restore all your health to full, and can save right before you fight him

>>4756945
Thanks for proving my point, ALTTP has a better final boss fight that's more challenging.

>>4757119
The only challenge is not falling off the edge which isn't even a death but a "ha ha we wasted your time".

>>4749363
>PLAY THE FUCKING MANUAL GAYS
>most of us didnt have the manuals even in rentals
>most of the time the manuals didnt told you well certain thing, like T&C Surf Design.
>all those Konami manuals who had jack shit to do with the already LOLsy localization

I never read a manual other than for cool character descriptions. Part of the fun of videogames was just playing them and figuring out shit for yourself. Tutorials also made people soft.

>>4751017
There is nothing special about this screenshot. Every RPG has screens like that - map, party info, combat info, map, quest journal - it's just here they're all on-screen at once. It's inefficient use of screen real estate since you will only look at each of these screens once per five minutes or something, if anything.

You're trying to make a big deal out of something that is not a big deal.

>>4756606
>Knowing there’s only one secret per screen just saves a ton of time.

"just having the entire game spoonfed to me so i don't have to think or explore or do any actual gameplay saves a lot of time bro. so obvious."

>>4749363
manuals are so comfy

>>4749734
Pretty much how we learned every secret, somebody at school found something and you found something else, and this process grew exponentially. I didn't even know what Nintendo Power was as a kid, it was all stuff people told me at school, sometimes even before a game came out.

>>4756637
>>4756632
>Bullshit enemies later on
Somebody got fucked by wizzrobes, lol.

I think games should stand on their own without required outside materials.

>>4760685
I mean, they can, that's an option, sure. And modern games that require wikis are a plague.

But integrating physical materials is an equally valid option. Nobody ever said the experience can't extend beyond the screen.

Back in the golden age of feelies, games came with extra shit and it was fucking dope. A game might have a big map you could unfold and actually be useful while playing, or a reproduction of some in-game item you could hold and fiddle with, or whatever. Heart Of Darkness came with 3D glasses, Starsiege came with a giant lore book and an art book that gave you a tonne of background information on the universe, and TFX had a huge flight manual full of weapons specs and shit.
Now, all that stuff is really cool and not really required (although some of the feelies were used as copy protection, like the letter in Zork which is an in-game item which you can't read in-game but has important information, and good luck playing a flight simulator without reading the manual), but there's no rule saying you couldn't meaningfully integrate a book or whatever with a game and have it add to the experience. There's probably good examples which aren't coming to mind.

>>4761038
The letter in Startropics and the psuedo-copy protection/fourth wall fuckery of Meryl's codec in Metal Gear Solid.

The 3D labyrinth sections of Golgo 13 and the Mafat Conspiracy are pretty tricky to navigate without the map in the manual

>>4756713
Thank you. You've covered basically everything I wanted to say.

But to continue one I love the fact that LoZ is still the one game in the series where going out of you way to get the best equipment is extremely worthwhile. This goes under
"ALTTP's secrets tend to be less satisfying to discover", but I have to point out that it's true that not only are the items gained more useful due to the difficulty, but the quests you do to get them are at least as clever as anything LttP offers.

>>4756578
well the picture a few posts up shows the manual explicitly telling you to burn bushes with the candle to find secrets so i don't believe you

>>4756847
I'm >>4756713. ALTTP has better bosses, no question about it. LoZ's bosses were great by 80s standards but haven't held up well. ALTTP had moments (the Palace of Darkness boss used to give me trouble) but LoZ is still the more consistently challenging game.