/vr/ - Retro Games

>>4743383
Sometimes when we remember things it's through rose tinted glasses and we focus on the good rather than the bad.

Go start another game, and 5 hours in you'll remember why you don't want to slog through the whole thing again.

>>4743383

Do what I did, playthrough until Solaris develops a big ol' crack and falls...then realize the start of Squares mistakes.

Have you been playing the Xenoblade games - which actually are good - perhaps?

>>4743407

>We live in an era where people trash Gears but defend this garbage

>>4743412
More like some of us are now enlightened enough to realize that it - and to a lesser extent Xenosaga - was just Takahashi's personal, pretentious bout of pseudo-psychological nonsense, and finally he dropped all that just to make a fun game.

>>4743423
>are now enlightened

Shove off, newfag

>>4743441
I've been visiting /vr/ for 5 years now. That "ALL modern games are shit" mentality of yours is just toxic.

>>4743454
>toxic
>>>/reddit/

>>4743472
Ah, yes. >>>/reddit/
Truly, the last resort of a man without an argument.

>>4743423

That and the fact Saga, his wife tried killing herself after shit did not go according to plan.

>>4743484
What's the story on that? What plan?

>>4743493
He's probably referring to how Xenosaga was originally planned to be a six-game series, but II sucked and it got trimmed to a trilogy. I don't know what anon meant by that thing about his wife though.

>>4743498

She was fed up with him changing the story again and again. Op forgot to mention that her brother offed himself a month before her attempt. All togeather, no matter what, we are never going to see what they had in store for their so-called epic. Pity, the other cool thing would have been to see what they had planed for their idea of FF VII/VIII

>>4743526
Now that WOULD have been interesting, to see if Takahashi could have made 7 & 8's stories more of a mess than they already are.

>>4743484
>>4743498
Her attempt had nothing to do with Xenosaga

>>4743531

Did you notice the motif of the Aquavey region? The going idea was this. MC (Fei) was supposed to have been a cryogenically woken up solider with PTSD after 500 or so years. The remains of the Eldridge was to actually be a colony drop that he was part of in this fuck huge war that played out. They wanted to combine elements of FF, Gundam and Eva into the overall story.

>>4743561
The 90s were a hell of a drug, man.

>>4743579

The good with the bad...take for what we have now, fuck, help me find a way back!

>>4743393
There's a fast text cheat that makes it more fun.

Giant robots and kung fu have great draw, paired with nice art and music encourage a desire to return.

>>4746251

FINISH DISC 2!

>>4743396
The start of Squares' mistakes are as early as Norturne. Maybe even earlier.

>>4743383
Because Elly's as hot as a late 90s JRPG love interest can get

>>4743383
It's about as good a game as star wars is a good movie

>>4743383
Play Xenosaga instead, it's what Xenogears should have been.

>>4746709
So great and came out so long before you were born you can't even even. Got it.

>>4743383
Because you relate it to a better time in your life.

>>4743383
Go look for /m/ material.

>>4746656

Uh...yeah, yeah that does sound about right. There is even about 12-20 hrs cut from Disc 1 also.

>>4746691

Asuka rip off

>>4747113

No

because the characters and world are great but actually playing the game is a slog

>>4743383
semen demon

>>4748434
>Asuka rip off
you say that like its a bad thing. You a Rei fag?

>>4743383
>it's not a very good game

>>4743383
Alright lemme say my bit.

I really enjoyed this game and I really did enjoy the story when I first played it. As an adult, 15 years later, yeah it's pretentious as shit. The writing is bad and the setting is just OK. But I have a lot of fond memories of it and if you want to play a fun JRPG, it's got a ton of characters and a lot of variety. Even the story, which again I will describe as pretentious, is all over the place and you never get too mired down in any single story arc. The music also was very good and if you're able to give a pass to Chu-Chu and some of the other low brow shit, it's a good game. It's the Citizen Kane of 90's-00's RPGs.

>>4743383
The director had some serious ambition, which is something I feel like modern games tend to lack. The best things in life, whether it's films, games, art at large, or people are never the most polished ones, but the rough ones that have gained their own truly unique qualities through sheer effort. They may be scuffed up or have fallen flat on their face, but, by God, they at least had something they wanted to do and tried their damnedest.

Uniqueness is something that a lot of modern games lack, unfortunately, due to the sheer cost of making a game nowadays.

>>4749279
I'm this guy >>4749260

Thank you dude. I'm glad someone else other than me enjoyed it.

>>4749279
Agree. Even Yu Sukuki said in an interview (I believe about After Burner) that the best games have some rough edges. Today obssesion with thousands of balance patchs for fighting games and absolutely zero bugs is the antithesis of that.

>>4749260
There were two writers. The borderliner woman was the interesting one. The man was the pretentious one.

>>4749535
What do you mean borderliner? I have borderline personality disorder, is that what you're describing her as? The more I learn about this fucking diagnosis the less I like it.

>>4749538
She (Soraya Saga) sure seems like it.

>>4749541
Okay this is a little off topic but for my own curiosity, describe to me what you think an individual suffering from borderline personality disorder is generally like.

I'm not going to disagree, I got diagnosed about 2 years ago and I'm in a support group for that shit on NIMH and I've really been trying to come to terms with it.

If it's true she had it, I feel a little less bad about it. Just be honest what you think if someone walked up to you and admitted they had or you somehow knew already, I'm obviously not going to be offended.

>>4749571
Overwhelmingly clingy in regards to their current object (subject) of attachment, up to employing whatever means necessary in order to remain in hold of it/him/her. Separated from the current object/subject of attachment, feel incomplete and defective.

Fucking great (more like "as a fish in the water", completely natural) with artistry though. Acting (could be argued their entire life is one big role), writing (especially something akin to stream of consciousness, the less self-censorship, the better), improvising in general. Not sure how the artistic/improvising aspect meshes with the clingy/unstable one though.

That's how I currently imagine it anyway. Maybe I am entirely wrong.

>>4749612
Also, I think, originators and "fuellers" of pretty much all the underground/subcultural trends. That ties with the theme of self-expression I mentioned above.

>>4749464
The story is pretentious conceptually, but scene to scene the characters are all consistently written and enjoyable, with clear personalities and believable motivations. There are so many great, subtle details where characters behave appropriately. For example, Bart preferring a confrontational tone even when joking around, without devolving into a one-dimensional caricature (like say, Barrett from FF7). Then there's the scene where Fei and Citan both have appropriately different reactions to that painting of Sophia (Citan notices the style of the brush strokes while Fei's boner sees Elly). Even the villains all have distinct personalities, with competing goals, motivations, and perspectives that actually influence the progression of the story(Ramsus, Krelian, Miang, the Gazel Ministrty, Grahf, etc.)

The fact that the game mostly stays true to the characters and their development is what saves it-- although it's not without flaws in that regard either (eg Rico).

>>4749612
Pretty cool. I'd say that's accurate. Thanks for the input.

>>4749625
I agree completely. My favorite character was Citan w/ sword or Esmeralda though I didn't spend much time with her, her design was just nice. Best character in the game though was Miang. Gods she is m'lady.

>>4749687
Thank you for the feedback as well. If you don't mind my asking, how do you generally prefer to self-express (you can abstain from answering that question)?

>>4749464
I'm >>4749279

No problem. And it's interesting. This game was built up to such ridiculously high heights before I played it that nothing could ever measure up. (Not to mwntion that I was suffering from severe JRPG burnout at the time.) I almost wound up hating the game. Yet, I still like it. I never managed to beat it back when I played it initially, though I made it to the last dungeon. Unlike FF6 (the only other game that's ever been built up to such a level to me before), I actually intend to return to Xenogears here before long.

>>4749735
Difference is that FF6 can be beaten comfortably in 40 hours or less. Good luck doing that with Xenogears.

>>4749705
I do a lot of model kits, I build them and airbrush them. I also write a lot, fiction and nonfiction. It's usually horror themed because it's what I find most people can connect to. I recently wrote a story about a what-if instead of bitcoins running on graphics cards about humans who'd managed to not invent either the vacuum tube or the transistor and technology was largely frowned upon but was mysteriously gifted a book about how to grow flesh. They end up planting children in the dirt and using chemicals to grow them into twisted buildings of rib-cages or bridged built out of two mouths over rivers of blood since is fuel for the actual ground, furthermore they plant humans up to their hips in fields of thousands and run wires beneath fingernails, into tooth sockets and through the eyeballs to achieve the effect of a semiconductor. The story was mostly about a guy name Frank who's job it was to resolve server feedback on his uncle's farm so he puts on a rubber suit and uses a claw hammer to bust all their teeth out since mouth pieces cost too much and the farm would go under.

Growing up I used to collect and idolize things for no reason, sometimes I didn't even know why. The first time I idolized something was Baby Spice and I've never felt anything quite that intense. It sounds random, but believe me, I collected every magazine, book, calendar, music video.. I had a fucking shrine. For the longest time, I knew I was different in an uncool way but when I got this diagnosis, it was like 'oh.' Most people seem to have a REALLY bad opinion of us but it's incredibly difficult to find out you have it unless you are being 100% honest. I don't feel connected to anything, most people think I'm mysterious because I can go a week without talking to anyone, when the obvious truth is I'm more interested in anime and video games than the actual world or people.

It's nice sometimes but like most serious mental illness, it will fuck you into the dirt.

>>4747113
I first played Xenosaga expecting that fun little combo based combat system Xenogears had. I got generic crap instead. I didn't play any further after this realization.

Gimme that HA HA HA HA ONIONS HOOOOYAH

>>4749746
You know, I guess I'll just say it. It may seem random and it has probably nothing to do with you, but still, regardless, I'll say it.

I am not a borderliner, I am, was and well still to some extent am, a paranoid, delusional systems and such. I am, like, psychoanalyzing myself day and night for like more than two years straight, my own system, and I am more or less nearing the state to where I will be more or less content with how I have changed who I am.

Regardless, not the point.

Point is, one of the conclusions I have arrived to along the way, was that the brain doesn't have any capacity whatsoever to determine anything about what's that which I call "I" is. There is simply no way, however much you try to think about it in whatever way, whatever you think you know about that "I" really and truly concerns something else. That however doesn't cancel the basic fact that some of my actions feel like _I_ made them, they are conscious and spontaneous. And some don't feel that way, like, the could be called unconscious, reflexes or habits or whatever the fuck. In other words, there are things _I_ do, and there are things more like "done by me", these are radically different categories. The existence of one category doesn't cancel the existence of the other, they coexist.

Now, for those actions which are "done by me", unconscious, habitual ones, it's more or less always possible to find a cause, the consequence of which that action was. For every single such an action, its own cause. For those first ones, the only thing that can be said is that they originated from that whatever thing I happen to call "I". And that's it. Beyond that, it's a solid wall, you can scratch and wail all you want, you are not getting any more information about it however much you try.
(cont)

>>4749772
(cont-d)
What I am leading to is the freedom of will. You know, I don't have a slightest clue, whether I do happen to possess any freedom of will or not. Maybe I do. Maybe I don't. This is not the most pleasant thought there is, admittedly. But here is the thing. Whatever it is, I won't ever, and I mean, EVER, fucking know about it any more than I do now. Which is, once you set aside all the false flags and unrelated stuff, exactly zilch. In other words, I repeat, I don't know, whether I, that thing I call "I", HAPPENS, _HAPPEN_ to possess any kind of free will (whatever anyone says) or not, but, either way, nothing I do will ever get me even a step closer to that answer. That answer is simply behind that wall, and that's it, and that's all that could ever be said about it. Probably this comparison with a wall has also originated from somewhere completely unrelated too. I don't know whether what I call "I" is an object in causal webbing or not, whether "I", I, am truly spontaneous or not, etc. And it doesn't. fucking. bother. me. Because one conclusion I have reached during my psychoanalyzing myself for two+ years day and night was that it is FUCKING STUPID to bother over stuff that is UNKNOWABLE IN PRINCIPLE.

So, there, I've said it. Make of it what you will, if anything.

>>4749772
>>4749794

You sound pretty fucking crazy, but we all sound that way when we try to explain the things inside us with the terms we've created and verbiage that has developed internally for so long. Sounds like you are aware you have a problem and as a person who's only just not getting his shit under control, I'd recommend a therapist (next to free, free if you're broke; just google). Free places won't help you with meds but will help you figure out a diagnosis and from there you can see a psychiatrist and maybe get medicated to some degree. I'm on 4mg of xanax a day and I'm generally too laid back to get wound up into an anxiety attack.

Anyway, best of luck with your issues, no matter how in control you feel, you should see someone and put a finger on your diagnosis and really try to work on that, it'll make you happier as a person, like exercising.

>>4749794
In other words, the only thing I know, is that _I_ am PARTLY in control of my body, my actions and stuff. Sometimes to a greater extent, sometimes less so, doesn't matter, I always feel at least SOME extent of control. However, whether, at the same time, that same _I_ happens to be UNDER whatever kind of control. Well, I just don't know, I know that I will never know, and I am, like, whatever, I have other stuff to think about.

>>4749803
Are you the person I was talking to?

>>4743383
Coz the first disc is great, and it had the potential to be an absolute classic until the trainwreck of disc 2.

>>4749810
anon are you 14 because nobody cares about solipsism anymore

>>4749772
>>4749794
>>4749803
Oh dude just read all of Gurdijeff's books and you'll get it. You just need to read Gurdijeff.

>>4749815
Yes I am. Discord ID is
Deckard 薄荷
#6457

If you want to add me and shoot the shit.

>>4749891
Whatever. Thanks for the feedback once again.

>>4749810

>>4743480
>Says the shitposter that thinks Xenogears is shit while Xenosaga is good despite Xenogears being WAYYY more unique in terms of gameplay mechanics, story (at least the bits they didn't steal from Eva and Gundam), actual characters instead of garbage anime waifu bullshit (at least to an insulting degree like Japanese developers seem to be fond of today) and some semblance of actual character/art design

Even as a person that isn't fond of Xenogears at all and in fact I down right hate it at times, it's complete horseshit to say that Xenosaga is better. The problem with Xenogears is that it extends itself too much in terms of the story and other shit and ends up doing what the PSX FF games did where one disc is full of gameplay and another is basically all story.The edgy "Kill God" theme doesn't help either. That being said, it's a worthy attempt and I'll commend Square for trying it. Xenosaga is literally just a typical JRPG which is in denial that all the shit it has done has been done 20 years ago and better. I don't thing all "modern games are shit", but I do think you have objectively shit taste for thinking a directionless corporate cash grab disguised as a game is better than an extremely flawed gem of sorts.

>>4749961
Which part of Xenosaga are you talking about primarily?

>>4749967
he doesn't know, he's never played it

Xenogears is babby's first philosophy lesson, but it's unpretentious, so it's fine.

Disc 2 ehhhh has cool parts.

>>4749970
>philosophy lesson
It's only applying Jungian psychology mixed with gnostic Christian mythology to a story, it's not trying to teach anything

>>4749972
Nietzsche

>>4749961
Uhhh you weren't even properly following the chain of conversation. That anon was talking about Xenoblade, not Xenosaga.

>>4749978
Like I'm going to remember the name of a shitty Eva ripoff and the shit games it spawned

>>4749976
What about Nietzsche does the game allude to? Nietzsche's ideas directly influenced Jung so it'd be redundant mentioning him anyway
There were also Freudian terms thrown around, plus that Alinsky 'haves' and 'have nots', I'm not sure if that was a thing in the original Japanese or if the translators were left wing types

>>4749976
>>4749972
It's both. And yes, it's applying the principles in order to generate conflict for an interesting story, it's not preachy or didactic.

>>4750007
well it does have the typical jrpg friendship is magic deal

>>4750021

>>4750025
Ren & Stimpy are now as old as dirt.

>>4749810
dude seriously Gurdijeff wrote a book that's literally called "Life is Real Only Then, When 'I Am'" that's literally about what you're talking about

you don't have to read beelzebub but seriously read his other shit

>>4750030
they basically were dirt from the start, that shit is not for children

>>4749169

No, but it goes back even before Asuka, honestly.

>>4749535

Saga was going insane...Takahashi thought he was making the Japanese Dune. They both got fucked over in that first, the game that would become Xenogears was supposed to have been Chrono Trigger 2, then the project was changed to what could have been FF VIII, then got its own break. You basically have the premise of 3 games in one. No wonder its all over the place!

>>4749961
this but unironically

Storywise is not much worse or edgier than FFVII. I guess marketing does the difference.

>>4750678
Ehhh, it's like Sonic 1 vs Sonic 2. Sonic 2 is more polished, but it's basically the same.

>>4751376
False

>>4751401
Enlighten me.

>>4749625

DOST THOU DESIRE POWER?

I AM GRAHF, SEEKER OF POWER

>>4749970
>>4749972
It's pretty light on philosophy and I guess it is what will make people think it's pretentious: starting topics and having random namedropping without going deeper is bound to make some roll their eyes.

I just feel Xenogears is more like a loveletter to science-fiction: from the obvious mechs, Solaris or Onions; to that somewhat incestuous Fei/Elly/Myang relationship that is central to the stoy and reminds me a lot of Metropolis.

>>4750007
at one point with Billy's father it does convey a rather unsubtle message about religions and personal belief

>>4751445
>Onions
does it just filter every word with onions in it? even onions?

>>4751445
>Onions
Damn word filter and /pol/ obsession with this. I mean that 1973 movie with furnitures and Charlton Heston.

>>4751464
the one that just doesn't really have an ending?

>>4751468
because the guy just goes crazy cause he doesn't know what tofu is

>>4751468
I'm more with >>4751470 on this one and I find the harsh ending fits the film.
Anyway, in the game, it feels more like a wink at the SF fans rether than a real plot point. That's where Xenogears can divide: either you enjoy that kind of fan-service or think it's silly.

Mind you, it's a game I loved even though I didn't get half the references I can now. But the first time I played it, the story really drew me in and I always wanted to know what'll happen next.

>>4751445
>somewhat incestuous
Er, what?

>>4751785
Elly looks exactly like the space captains (admiral?) wife i.e. Fei's real dad

>>4751440
I forgive him being over the top because his theme is so great.

>>4743383
>it's not a very good game.

what did he mean by this?

>>4754459
That the game is very not good, what's so hard about that? And I thought Xeno fans were supposed to be smart.

What do people think of the battle system retrospectively?

I feel like it's garbage now, but I liked it when I was a kid, nor can I stand the design

the only think I really like now is the story

the game seemed better when I was younger

>>4754840
The story is great as babby's first 2deep4u anime story, but if you do any reading beyond English 1A level you see how shallow and derivative it is. Much like Kojima's games.

>>4743383
I squeezed the whistle so much to artwork of Elly in my gaming magazines. I also thought Xenogears was very well written. Because I was 13.

It always makes me wonder. Does whatshisface, the writer, literally have the mentality of a 13-year-old boy? Because he always writes like he's fucking 13.

>>4755154
the writer is a woman

>>4755028
can you give some examples of games that do truly have deep stories?

Just so I can get an example?

>>4755261
Not him, but I'd say Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together has a pretty solid and insightful story.

>>4756342
It's about as dry and depressing as any civil war can be.

I'd say Breath of Fire 4 is more meaningful than TO while being a lot less realistic. (but equally terrifying.) Lost Odyssey has a great story but not retro (and a pretty nice novel tucked into it.) Wild Arms ACF has a really good novel hidden in it as well but the actual game is written like trash. Vagrant Story has a bunch of layers and is a pretty great ride. Alundra has a pretty novel plot structure for a videogame where it sort of brings all these side characters into the spotlight as everyone's lives are wracked with tragedy and you track down this insidious deeply buried evil. Dark Law is one of my favorite RPGs on the SNES but it's hard to figure out how to play it to actually get to that meaty murder mystery adventure game type shit.

Azure Dreams has barely any plot to speak of, but there are 8 compact love stories some of which are lovingly translated.

I'll tell you that the Mother and Soulblazer trilogies are amazing and everyone who cares about games should play them, but some people really hate those games and it's kind of just asking for trouble to mention them.

>>4755202

Correction, a batshit crazy, bi-polar, high psychotic woman.

>>4756705
so, a woman

>>4756719

Basically. Visually, this game only had my attention for the sake of Future Past. Looking back at it, and the failure of disc 2, just can't give it the accolades I used to.

>>4756412
Fair enough I suppose. Thanks for the game recommendations though. I'll look into Vagrant Story, Alundra, BoF4 and Dark Law soon.

>>4755028

I'm pretty sure Kojima is celebrated not necessarily for the content of his stories (though Nuclear proliferation, genetics, memes , contextual censhorship and PMCs are pretty topical context) it's how much if the information is accessed. Every piece of equipment, boss and most areas have researched flavour text via codec calls that occur through player choice and are organic. Easter Eggs also become hidden plot points (Johnny in MGS3) MGS2 is amazing Speculative Fiction but that doesn't stop it from being convoluted and batshit at the same time. The player subversion Kojima uses is also pretty good.

Xenogears stands on the shoulders of giants and punches it a fists importantly at God.. and then budget ran out and we just heard about it.

>>4756793

Lol, no. Its a pretentious rip off from a husband and wife duo who were handed a load of hot garbage that failed as plots to two popular game franchises.

>>4756746
Half of it is the best game that ever could have been, and half of it is the worst game that we actually got.

Like you can tell Xenogears was gonna end on a cliffhanger and have a sequel, but they were just like "no this is the only game you're gonna get to make now. we can't afford this anymore"

they basically just changed their mind's about paying for the guy's dream

so if you work in japanese game design, never piss off your investors, they probably have ties to yakuza

>>4756839
>they probably have ties to yakuza

That was not the issue. The issue was Takahashi's plan was too big at the time, that and there is truth behind the game going through 2 major changes.

>>4756412
>It's about as dry and depressing as any civil war can be.
That's oversimplifying things IMO. All the other games you listed are very good in terms of both story and gameplay, but the thing with TO is that the story is focused and doesn't meander onto various tangents that messily get put together into a finale that leaves more questions than it answers and doesn't leave anything up for question, unlike Xenogears. It's a very simple story, but a the same time it makes you think about your choices because those have an effect on the story and hence the outcome of the war. It's certainly depressing, but I don't think it's dry in any capacity.

>>4747113
>weebcore space opera

no thanks

While most people praise Gears' writing and trash the combat, I think the combat has held up pretty well. The game has a cool world and a decent cast. Aside from the lack of sidequests I would say it has some of the better JRPG gameplay on PS1. But the writing is pretty bad, from retard Fei to the miserable prose to the overly complex plot. At least it pays off pretty well by the end. The Jungian and religious elements actually work well, and the reason I think people like Gears while still admitting to its flaws is because it had huge ambition for a game of its time. It's too bad Takahashi is a hack who can't properly plan a project and the Xeno games never got any better.

I love/d this game. Granted, I was 14 when it came out. Still loved it when I replayed it at 17. Provably would like it even today. But then I remember the slow text and disc 2. Would love to see a remake or at the very least fix to those issues (and adding Ramus as your last character as was originally envisioned) and would replay it in a heartbeat.