/vr/ - Retro Games

Games (and gamers) haven't matured enough.
Gamers like anything with a large-scale, epic story but they're too stupid or uneducated to recognize a good piece of writing when they see it.
Really, it's the story itself that often gets praised rather than how the story is told when it should be the other way around.

Problem: nerds make video games. Nerds can't write.

>>472020
Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines was released in the year 2004. The Longest Journey was released in the US in the year 2000. These games fall past the cut off date of this board, and so are not /vr/ related so please discontinue discussing them.

Most people don't want to make or play games with good stories, and often the ones that do make you stop playing to get the story spoonfed to you.

There's probably only a handful of truly amazing videogame stories out there.

>>472131
god damn you're a faggot

Specifically, game writers these days have trouble with character interactions. It's different than just writing a poor story. For example, I think Mass Effect actually has a well-designed world, but then it's like they take the pieces and arrange them in an awkward fashion. The characters come off as stiff or contrived.

Subtlety has been lost. Characters immediately stick in your mind as caricatures. The easy way to put this is to say they're one-dimensional, but it's almost as if this is intentional; no attempt is made to give characters a myriad of traits or motivations. Manny Calavera and April Ryan are good characters because they aren't over-the-top, nothing is really handed to you, so you're given more of an opportunity to come to your own conclusions. At a glance, they just seem like normal people, which characters should be -- "normal people" are more complex than overly self-aware gamers give them credit for.

>>472152
I agree. If you look at great works of literature, almost every character will be multi-faceted. They have numerous qualities and traits that show at different times.
In video games they almost always fall under certain tropes with extremely predictable qualities, acting the same way in every situation.

And this isn't a problem inherent in vidya, I truly think video games can far surpass any other form of art and entertainment, but they haven't because few people grasp this aspect of story-telling and even fewer people can create it.

>>472131

I've never seen a person with a cock rammed as far up their ass as you.

>>472152

Absolutely agreed. You pretty much nailed it. There's no real interest to flesh out characters.

The question though is why, isn't it? Are video game writers untalented? Likely. Are gamers incapable and uninterested in processing subtlety? Even more likely. Is realizing believable characters and writing a witty script while paying attention not to disrupt the integrity of those characters and also marrying all of that with gameplay hard? It definitely is. Is doing all this for an audience of teenagers who just want to shoot bad guys a good idea? Absolutely not.

So what was so different back in the day? Maybe nothing really was. Maybe most people didn't even really get most of the humor in Monkey Island and Sam & Max and just played for the puzzles and pretty backgrounds. Even so -- an AAA commercial success in those days is less than what a game like Bastion makes today. Then I remember that Grim Fandango sold quite poorly and -- hm -- maybe nothing really changed at all. The industry just became bigger as more people became interested in video games (for a variety of reasons that are too big for a single post) and big studios started catering to bigger audiences. Exactly what happened with 4chan.

>>472909
The talent's still there if you look closely enough, but the remaining companies or groups that want to put out these more thoughtful games have been marginalized.

People like Tim Schafer, Chris Avellone or Ragnar Tornqvist have persisted because they came up at a time where their games were still viable, so when they try new projects, there's still a response because they have prior work that was well-regarded or has become as such over time. But when new people with their sort of intelligence try to get their foot in the door, they stand no chance because there's not a high enough demand for what they want to do.

Fortunately, one thing that bodes well for literate gaming is that it's easier than ever to develop a low-budget production and find a platform on which to sell it. And I'm going to be honest, I've found some gems as recently as this year (GoG is good for this). But the downside is that these games tend to be very brief, presumably because manufacturing a video game with 1-10 people's input is a daunting task, if cheap.

>>473080

You want to tell me you found something rivaling Mitsoda's wit in Bloodlines?

I find gaming in general is filled with humorless and even outright unintelligent people, both in development and the audience. Frankly, I don't even actively bother, so maybe something likable did crawl out of the underground.

Waking Mars was a recent surprise. Not because the writing was particularly mind shattering but because it served it's point, was understated and not actively bad. The game didn't try to be funny, dramatic or smart, the script was natural and the voice actors handled it with ease. I know it sounds like nothing much at all, but it's a rarity in video games.

>>473218
I haven't played Bloodlines, though I've played almost everything else on the above list, and no, I can't say I've found anything quite on that level, but I've found games that I more than just liked.

Wadjet Eye Games puts out good stuff. Derivative perhaps, but these guys do get it. Gemini Rue and Resonance (and Primordia which I didn't play, but it looks compelling) were thoughtful games that do well with a limited narrative. Another couple I've liked are Richard & Alice and the Cat Lady, the latter of which I actually finished a day ago. The former amounts to what is maybe just a visual novel in a pedestrian engine, but I found it moving; the latter was perhaps the most impressive game of the lot, though I may need to mull it over a while longer.

I didn't play Waking Mars, so I'm not sure how it stacks up against the other indie games in terms of this elegant simplicity.

>>473305

>Wadjet Eye Games

I've been meaning to check out their stuff for the longest time now but I keep putting it off and doing other things instead.

Do check out Waking Mars. The gameplay is not quite as deep or complex as I thought it would be but it's oddly addicting. The atmosphere is great too. Overall, damn good game.

This is all fine and well, but I just really want honest-to-good witty games like Grim Fandango and Bloodlines. Takes a special kind of person to write that kind of shit.

>>473375
>Waking Mars
>>473305
>>473218

Waking Mars is an extremely recent game. IT was released in 2012, just last year. As such this game is not really appropriate for discussion on /vr/. If you want to continue talking about the game, you can go to /v/, but otherwise limit your discussion to gmaes published in 1999 and earlier while you are on /vr/

>>473375
I will, thanks.

Even at 9, when I was seeing most games through a horribly obscured lens, I could tell Grim Fandango was special. That game was something else.

>>473392

Suck my cock.

>>473417

Whenever I think it's all nostalgia, I hit up youtube and check out a few scenes. I always get floored.

I know it's just a few more years until I finally forget the puzzles and get a relatively fresh playthrough. It's already been a decade since my last playthrough though and I can't forget anything.

>>472020
>>472020
Because the more user control you allow, the less likely it is to be able to keep a storyline tight. Pacing and characterization suffer in such an environment, as a general rule.

Also, to give gamers more value for their dollar, longer games like RPGs (which usually feature a sophisticated plot) stretch out the time in between story events with minor quests, optional missions, level grinding, and other such things.

Finally, even in the world of print publishing, most fiction writers aren't out to tell an objectively excellent story. Most are out to write what they enjoy reading, which means a lot of pulpy adventure and steamy romance, and relatively few books that marry critical examination of complex issues to an interesting plot. Video games are no different. If what you want is an exciting adventure storyline with larger-than-life villains, exotic settings, and a hero who won't be kept down, video game stories will generally suit you just fine.

Because no one is really pushing for more well-written games.
There's a false front of people interested in pushing politics or making games more like shitty movies (including the "interactive fiction" crowd) that are more bothered by "lazy writing" like damsels in distress (Grim Fandango's Meche says hi by the way) than looking for any sort of quality writing.

Point and clicks and RPGs aren't as big anymore either while the other genres are generally more focused on "cinematic"-shit and the wannabe writers generally don't like games to begin with or have no taste in writing to speak of.
Full voice acting is also a big obstacle in the way of good iterative writing.

>>473535
>critical examination of complex issues
Is in no way a measure of good writing.

>>472020

>thinks good writing sells

Most consumers want the hollywood crap, that's why there's EA and Activision doing their AAA titles. That's what the public considers "good writing".

And also there's the fact videogames are also suposed to be games, not interactive books with heavy task management mechanics. Not saying there's something wrong with that, but there's gotta be variety. Good writing requires lots and lots of text, and while you're reading, you're not playing.

>>473574
>opinions

I think the best fiction is fiction that is absorbing in its own right, but which reaches beyond itself to challenge readers to ponder big questions and complex issues without clear answers. That is my opinion. I guess your opinion is different. It doesn't change the overall point of what I wrote, which is that it's possible but very difficult to tell a high quality story in the medium of the video game for various reasons.

ITT: tl;dr

>>473614
You want something that's self-contained and abstract at the same time? Which is the more important between the larger picture and internal cohesion?

Is it just me or does story that is mostly explained THROUGH game is much better/much more engaging?
Case in point: Dark souls mostly tells its story through interaction with characters and stuff taken from said characters' bodies, but it really makes the world work.

Or Ikaruga which may not have much of a story, yet everything there works together like a well-oiled machine. Music, the one theme with different arrangements (and it gloriously loops back to arrange closest to "Ideal" in the last stage). Final boss with just a couple of lines... which then explodes and reveals Stone-like. A lot of this is "holy shit" factor, but damn, it works and it works better than myriads of cutscenes.

>>473535

Nobody's asking for critical examination of complex issues nor is that synonymous with good writing per se.

Just give clever people a pen. Grim Fandango does not revolve around any complex ideas. It's a story about a reluctant antihero on who finds himself in a quest for redemption. The narrative and even the setting itself supports that wholeheartedly, but unlike certain other stories, it's never pushed down your throat. The story establishes the idea of a "four year quest through the purgatory" right away and then circumstances align in a way that ends up being exactly that. That's incredibly powerful right there and yet it's so simple. It would end up cheesy and hamfisted under a less talented writer. The characterization is fantastic too and the characters established as comical archetypes like Lupe are never one-dimensional billboards saying "you should laugh now".

It's like someone said earlier in the thread -- how you tell the story is more important than the story itself. You don't need to beat the audience over the head or even communicate anything particularly heady, you just need that spark that makes your characters and their situations *alive*. If we could put down on paper the exact formula for this, a monkey would be able to do it. With that said, I'm pretty sure most AAA studios hire trained monkeys.

>Final Fantasy X not listed

>>473614
>but which reaches beyond itself to challenge readers to ponder big questions and complex issues without clear answers.
Personally I despise that view as it encourages lavishing complete hacks with praise simply because they bring up political points of view.
See Bioshock Infinite's hype machine for the result of exactly that sort of thinking.

>>473635
That said, Asura's wrath devs were more honest and just made a slightly-interactive movie. And a damn fine one.

>>473635
I hate to say this, but that sort of storytelling goes right over my head despite being the most straightforward way of showing the player what's going on.

If I didn't already know what Metroid was about, and then I played Super Metroid, it woudn't really occur to me what was going on with the game's story.

I'll happily take derivative works so long as they are well done and have decent dialogue.

>>473614

How about fiction that effectively reaches to a place that's not big or complex or even extraneous -- something very simple and dormant within everyone?

I find that best I've read/played/watched gives rise to something that's already there rather than necessarily introducing something new. Take The Positronic Man for example. At first glance, it seems like an exploration of something decidedly "out there" given the subject nature, but ends up making you examine things you already knew. Or rather, things you thought you already knew.

>>473659

I'm playing through Bioshock Infinite right now and it's pretty much exactly what I thought it would be. Entirely hamfisted, forced and yet strangely cynical. As if the writer was intentionally stooping down to the audience's level and intentionally choosing not to be subtle. It's condescending. The game is basically a big billboard so far. The fact that the themes explored are incredibly stale and likely chosen precisely to preach to the self-important choir doesn't help one bit.

It's like they took Bioshock and everything wrong with it and made it even worse.

I do prefer the Halo-esque gameplay to the wants-to-be-SS2-but-is-failing-miserably vibe of the original. They really fucked the pacing severely though, by forcing me to scavenge the battlefield like a hobo instead of making item pickups instantaneous like common sense would imply for a fast paced shooter. That's irrelevant to the topic at hand though and I don't want this to turn into a Bioshock thread.

Missing Silent Hill 2, which is easily the best written japanese game.

Maaaybe Xenogears.