/vr/ - Retro Games

>>4650970
>crt crisis
Unless someone goes around getting and destroying every crt that exists they will be around for a long time.

>>4650970
CRT Monitors and emulators
Even shitty ones can do 1080i, are much higher quality than any tv, they are dirt cheap and can look like any pvmeme with the proper shader.

>>4650970
Pay out the ass for pvms and learn how to refurb them.

>>4650970
>What's to be done about the CRT crisis?
What crisis? Don't listen to the idiots over at VentureBeat. "We talked to one company doing arcade repair, and they lost their supplier, so now there's only 30 arcade CRT monitors LEFT!" You can find Makvision CRTs and even still find old Wells Gardner CRTs. Quit reading poorly researched articles that get parroted by all the media sites, or at least check the facts first.

>>4650970
Just hoard as many tvs and monitors as you can. pic relate my current build.

120+hz 2k+ resolution LCD monitor with shaders is fine. Honestly, it'll save you a lot of headache over trying to work with analog with modern computer hardware since nothing natively outputs analog video signals these days. If you really want to use an actual arcade CRT monitor, expect to pay a premium, that's just how it is.

Don't know if you've ever seen a QLED monitor in person, but they look amazing. If the prices ever go down I'll probably retire my Wii/CRT emulation setup and swap to that.

>>4651473

Makvision is low quality dogshit. You may get lucky and get some good years out of them, but they will shit the bed eventually. If you're really lucky you might be able to fix it when it does, and if not you can send out the chassis for repair, but even then I've gotten calls saying it's basically not worth doing the repairs.

WG rode on their good reputation for almost 20 years, and released a top of absolutely shitty monitors. Pretty much everything from the U series on is pretty dodgy. They made some good stuff previously, but a lot of those tubes are getting pretty worn out, so I wouldn't buy one sight unseen.

As far as that article goes, the company they talked to clearly didn't have a competent monitor repair guy.

>>4652248
That's a great looking build anon. It appears to look like a cabaret Atari cab. What are you going to put in there?

>>4653541
Thanks man, yeah I was aiming towards that cabaret style but I got some dimensions wrong so it looks a bit like a coffin, not sure what game to put in it, id rather set it up as one game than gazillion in 1 tho

>>4652248
>Just hoard as many tvs and monitors as you can
Yeah, just buy up all the good shit and shove it in your basement where the next young man who wants to get into this hobby can never find it.

There is no crisis. There are still millions of CRTs out there.

>having to pay for CRTs

Im doing THEM a favor.

Finally a 17'' managed to get to me without being broken by the courier, this was the third try.

Now I need 3 more to feel safe in case this one breaks.

>>4654514
Well its either that or people take them to the tip.

>>4654578
I think maybe in 10-15 years the supply of working CRTs will diminish enough that there's sizable demand to restart production. But I don't think it's an issue now.

>>4655045
>restart production
Never ever.

>>4655150
>>4655045
Don't they still sell the things in China or someshit like that?

>>4655161
Yes they do still make new ones, actually LG even still has CRT TVs, but they don't sell them in First World countries.

>>4655045
Retro gaming nerds will never be enough of a "sizable demand" to restart a whole dead industry that doesn't fulfill any other need.

>>4655196
>>4655150
I could swear I've seen this exact same poster in a couple other CRT threads. It's always a guy arguing that it's impossible to produce new CRTs and nobody but retro gamers buys them.

>>4655208
Yeah, we have some dedicated shitposters around here. Did you see where some guy spammed a shitton of unrelated pictures all over the board sometime last night? And a few deleted threads that were "JP devs superior to Western devs!". Why people waste their time being retarded, I'll never know.

>>4655181
I've also seen some chinese companies selling replacement CRT tubes. Shipping would probably not be cheap, but there's still new stock being made.

Too bad any chink CRTs would be probably poor quality compared to a late model Trinitron.

Should I look for s-video CRTs over composite? What are the differences between video inputs?

CRTs are dead, never coming back... what would inevitably happen is LCD displays will finally break the input lag baririer to th point it will reach 0 and finally be possible to play old games just fine on them.

>>4655235
>LCD displays will finally break the input lag baririer to th point it will reach 0 and finally be possible to play old games just fine on them.
Not happening either. Were rapidly reaching the point that all analogue inputs are being phased out so you won't be able to hook them up directly at all, regardless of lag issues.

Couple that to the EOL status of the mememeister and no word of a replacement and you fuckers better start worrying or embrace emulation lol.

I flat out gave up on CRTs and invested in a very low latency 4:3 lcd panel. I know it's not the same by any means, but I use to work in an arcade as a tech and I never want to repair another CRT in my lifetime. I fucking hate working on the things even if I still enjoy the picture they produce.

>>4655235
Judging from the TVs I saw at Best Buy last week, motion lag has not been gotten down to CRT levels of good by any stretch.

>>4655230
S-Video has two separate signals for luma and chroma (brightness and color, basically), while composite combines (i.e., composites) all the components into one signal.

>>4655045
They still make crts

>>4655448

>>4655448
>>4655450
>Discontinued Product

>>4655448
I think they're sold in India or something.

>>4655425
So s-video is cleaner I assume? Any difference in refresh rate or does that vary from model to model without regard to video input?

>>4652279
that's all well and good if your monitor supports a maximum refresh rate that high but that does not mean that you can plug any old console/arcade board into it and get a decent picture (or any picture at all for that matter). if they can't operate at below 60hz then they're utterly fucking useless.

>it'll save you a lot of headache over trying to work with analog with modern computer hardware since nothing natively outputs analog video signals these days

top fucking kek. you obviously have ZERO CLUE about what you're talking about.

> welcome to /vr/
> pretend experts are everywhere!

>>4655509
>Any difference in refresh rate or does that vary from model to model without regard to video input?
This question doesn't even make sense. No, that has nothing to do with S-video. It's just a different way of feeding the video signal to the TV. Higher fidelity because you split the video information into two wires, instead of one.

>>4655181
>Yes they do still make new ones, actually LG even still has CRT TVs, but they don't sell them in First World countries.
i refuse to believe you

>>4655479
If that's old stock from the 2000s, why does it have a modern-looking shiny black case instead of a 2000s silvery one?

>>4655667
Please use proper spelling and caps. Only people from Third World countries and 10 year olds type like that.

>>4655196
>Retro gaming nerds will never be enough of a "sizable demand" to restart a whole dead industry that doesn't fulfill any other need

Motion quality. Believe me when I say, when it comes to things like watching sports, CRTs are much missed,

im getting a replacement crt for my pop'n music cabinet today since the old one got necked being returned after the dude didn't touch it for four months :^)

>>4650970
why don't you people just stop buying CRTs and emulate instead?

We don't need CRTs forever, we just need a way to output an analog source fed into a digital input without any delay. We've already reached the point where a high resolution (4K) and a well made scanline filter can replicate the look of a CRT if that's your thing, and OLED's have have practically perfect black levels. The only thing missing is image rendering speed

And as someone who has three PVMs and an arcade monitor, honestly I'll be glad to see them go. CRTs have some advantages but a shit ton of drawbacks. I've spent dozens of hours trying to get the geometry on a 29" set right and it's just flat out impossible. That plus minor convergence issues, needed purity adjustments from just -rotating- the fucking set to face a different direction, and the white noise generated from just having the set on make CRTs kind of shitty. Once I can emulate the look without the added input lag from digital displays, I don't think I'd bother looking back

>>4655801
>Believe me when I say, when it comes to things like watching sports, CRTs are much missed
Well, there was plasma. No one wanted those either. I personally love plasma and view it as the rightful successor to the CRT throne. Sadly, it wasn't meant to be.

>>4655853
Plasma is better than an LCD, the problem is that they couldn't be made smaller than 32" and still aren't as good as a CRT for motion because they're sample and hold.

>>4655816
>We don't need CRTs forever
No but we did at least need them until flat panels could be brought up to the same level of motion quality, color quality, and whatnot, and the option to buy one was removed from us a good 15 years prematurely.

>>4650970
there's still one or two shops doing picture tube rebuilding.
i've only ever seen it done to monochrome tubes though.

>>4655903
>the option to buy one was removed from us a good 15 years prematurely
There are still hundreds of millions of CRTs in the world though, which you can still buy (or more likely, pick up for free off the side of the road). You just can't get a "new" CRT as easily, but who cares.

>>4655908
And there's a good reason for that--monochrome tubes are just a flat face with a continuous phosphor coating. You scrape it off, apply new phosphor, and reseal the tube. That's obviously quite impossible to pull off with a color CRT.

>>4655908
There was a guy Hawk Picture Tubes who retired some years ago...but he was kind of a douchebag--he would only repair certain 50s-60s TVs and nothing made in the solid state era.

If I had a car and a basement I’d start hoarding up on trinitrons. There’s old people out there who didn’t use them much and took care of them very well. Also they usually give them away on Craigslist for free if you can pick them up.

Tubes will be around for a long time, but finding good quality brands with inputs will be a lot harder in the future.

sometime in the near future finding a CRT in good condition with good inputs will be extremely hard. One way to combat this is to do RGB mods on CRTs.

To the average user crts don't matter. They are just an obsolete video device that takes up a lot of room, awkward to move, and cost money to dispose of (which most crts aren't geting recycled but hoarded since no one knows how to recycle them properly).

It wouldn't surprise me in decades from now if people start paying money for common consumer crts (not even high end). I've seen the same shit with old guitar amps and many other stuff.

Just let them go. Nothing lasts forever.

>>4655816
Say what you will but I love the bulky archaic irradiated pieces of frustration. Even if digital inputs eliminate their latency, even if we get scanline filters in a hundred different flavors, even if the colors of newer monitors start to match up so close a difference is imperceptible, I'll still miss CRTs whenever they go and I'll lament when they die. I'll miss tearing them open, fucking around with them, degaussing them, the static, the curved screens and blurred edges and intense glare. LCDs and OLEDs might eventually become "good enough" for practical usage but it still won't be the same.

>>4656069
>finding good quality brands with inputs will be a lot harder in the future.
In the near-to-medium term future, we will probably see more RGB mods for TVs and more emphasis on good tubes over good inputs as a result. Most of the surviving CRTs are from the 90s and 2000s, and most of those had built-in OSD menus (which is how most of the easy RGB mods are done). There are probably at least ten times as many surviving CRTs in North America that have internal RGB for menus as there are CRTs with built-in RGB inputs or even YPbPr. Not counting VGA monitors that can't do 15khz.

>>4656069
>To the average user crts don't matter.
I wonder if the Super Smash Bros obsessives (who also flock to CRTs) are a larger or a smaller group than retro enthusiasts who seek out CRTs.

I have a question about input lag. I have a higher end 144hz LCD monitor. Clicking on things feels instantaneous. Now I know 60hz HDTV's with buttloads of image processing are going to have tons of input lag, but how wide is the difference between a CRT and my PC monitor?

>>4656141
This might be the same thing you were trying to say, but just to be clear, the refresh rate is not the sole source of input lag. You could refresh 200 times a second and still have significant latency between the input vs what is shown on the screen. Clicking on things on a normal 60hz monitor feels "instantaneous" too. I believe "input lag" exists because some people are able to demonstrate a significant decrease in performance on games they are usually expert at, when playing on certain displays. Why don't you try it with a challenging game you are usually pretty good at, and see if the lag is significant enough to cause you to play poorly? If it doesn't make any difference, why worry about it?

>>4656176

Right. I guess I'm just wondering how much of a -physical- difference there is between displaying the results of an input on a CRT, and displaying the results on a 'gaming' monitor (taking out other sources of lag like wireless controllers and innate emulator delay). Basically trying to figure out when a difference of less than a frame becomes feasible

I dunno. My Samsung 40" 4K using HDR outputs one hell of an awesome image, black levels included.
It's not like my 20" trinitron. Both look awesome in their own way. Arcade games played on the 4K look goddamn incredible. I don't miss scanlines there.

I'll tell you fags this much. All my current options are infinitely better than what I grew up with, so I cannot be mad.

>>4656208
You don't belong here.

About a year ago, I got interested in maybe buying an old Mortal Kombat arcade machine and fixing it up. I watched a few videos on youtube of people renovating old machines and this one guy had like a dozen CRTs in his garage and was bitching about how someone who also renovates cabinets was in a bidding war with him for a specific monitor. I noped the fuck out and thought, fuck it, it's not worth it dealing with these hoarding mother fuckers.

>>4656216
People need to face the facts. Your consoles and cartridges and CRTs are electronics. They don't last forever.
So it's best to learn to appreciate the strengths of modern displays. One day that's all you will have.

>>4656217
What monitor was so unobtainable that they were fighting over it? Just shell out for a PVM at that point, it'll suit any purpose you could have for it

>>4656106

I think they will run out of good condition gamecube controllers before crts.

>>4656235
CRTs are free and easily available though so it's a piece of piss to get one.

>>4656302
And in 10 years?
20 years?
Even now, in certain places, finding a good CRT can be either difficult, or expensive. There's no point in playing on someone's old ass Aiwa w/ composite hookups. I was lucky enough to not toss my trinitron 11 years ago when I got my first flatscreen.

>>4656313

As said before, >>4655045

>>4656326
But then they'll be purely a luxury item, sold at prices to people who willingly pay $200 for a game cart. You have to remember who commands prices in retro games. It's people with more money(from their boomer parents) than they know what to do with.

>>4656191
Look up the response time or latency of a fast gaming monitor and convert that number to frames.

>>4656380
You used to have to pay a couple hundred for a higher end CRT TV. Ask yourself if you would still be willing to pay $400 for one because that would be the only way to keep production of new ones viable and profitable.

>>4656292
Controllers can more easily be replaced in the future.

>>4656410
>Ask yourself if you would still be willing to pay $400 for one
Nope.

>>4650970
Theres got to be a way to make cheap tvs that can mimic console resolution. Why does everything have to be 1080p or 4k?

>>4656456

The issue is that CRTs don't run on fixed pixels like modern displays. They have a vertical 'line' count (which could be equivalently measured in pixels), but the horizontal resolution is pretty dynamic. They can stretch and contort an image horizontally without having to worry about filling up a specific amount of square pixels. This means a lot of games for say, the NES, which outputs at 256x244 (An 8:7 ratio), were designed around knowing a CRT would just stretch the image to a 4:3 aspect ratio, inteionally design the assets to be squished so they'd stretch out and look right

The problem is digital displays have fixed pixels. You can't just stretch a pixel to a 1.5:1 ratio. This is why there's always some sort of compromise when displaying these games on digital sets, whether it be the original 8:7 ration, or introducing scrolling shimmer because the 'pixels' aren't all the same size

I hope that made any sort of sense

>>4656492
Analog vs. digital has been a cunt for decades now.
The two hate each other more than Candlejack and 4chan posts made abou

>>4656410
>$400
Plop a zero on the end and you're getting in the ballpark.

that's of course assuming the worldwide cabal of environmental lobbyists suddenly deregulated the myriad hazardous substances essential for their production ;-)

>>4654813
If you know it's immediately going to the dump then take it. But that dusty old presentation monitor sitting in the back of your university physics lab's store room? If you've already got a couple of decent CRTs then you need to leave that one for the next generation.

This is something the arcade guys messed up on. People filled their basements with cabinets that were doing just fine sitting the back of old pool rooms and laudromats. Then life caught up with them and they had to make room. When they couldn't even give the cabs away on craigslist they sent them to the dump or burned them.

>>4656410
>You used to have to pay a couple hundred for a higher end CRT TV.
Super high end CRTs used to be in the 20k range.

>>4655789
Old stock tubes + cheaply modernised case.

>>4656410
Definitely not possible to make new CRTs of any decent quality for $400 in the sort of volume that'd be possible just selling to vidya nerds.

Wei-ya harness + Philips tube so hard

>>4656792
>Wei-ya harness
Absolute garbage, now. You're better off RGB-hacking a consumer TV. Far, far better off.

>>4656792

When you see Wei-ya, say oh-no!

>>4656693
>>4655208
>nobody but vidya nerds would buy the things
If I keep repeating the meme enough times, it will come true.jpg

>>4655895
Plasmas never had especially impressive response either, their advantage has always been image quality and color. There is hope on the horizon for ending the LCD scourge at least, OLED seems to fulfill the bizarre modern requirements that concern how the TV looks when it's off and has perfect blacks and good response

>>4657070
Yes but you also have to remember that they gave up on plasma by the end of the 2000s--the technology didn't get a chance to improve. If they'd kept making them, they could have gotten better.

Black frame insertion in theory would solve the motion issue, it should also allow the use of NES Zappers since they work by detecting flicker.

>>4657058
Well, who else would buy them? Most people seem content with LCD for watching movies, TV, and playing more recent video games.

>>4657074
The fastest plasma was/is on the same level as the best LCD HDTVs though. I still want one but they don't have that advantage like CRTs and OLEDs. OLEDs should, that is, apparently some people were disappointed with the performance of the new LG ones which are effectively all current OLEDs you can buy seeing how they're the only one making panels that size

>>4657096
>more recent video games
Entire genres like (especially) fighters have become nearly unfeasible because the TVs are too slow.

I think the inability to make plasmas under 32" was the real killer for them. The pixels are physically too big for a smaller-sized display.

>>4657108
I'd file fighting game fanatics under "vidya nerds." Most of the pro leagues are using low-latency gaming monitors now anyway.

>>4657110
They'd have still been too expensive next to LCDs if they managed to get the size down somehow. People shopping for 32" sets care even less about image quality. Combine that with the shitty bright environment of most electronics sales floors and plasma is still a tough sell to the uninformed. I really hate the way things go sometimes

>>4657108
So many FPSes since the late 2000s and nary a light gun to play them with.

>>4657170
>Combine that with the shitty bright environment of most electronics sales floors and plasma is still a tough sell to the uninformed

I can't speak for most people but I sure as hell do remember seeing NFL games being run on the TVs at a Wal-Mart (I'm pretty sure this was in 2009-ish?) and seeing how much nicer the plasma looked in comparison to the washed out colors and ghosting on the LCDs there.

>>4657203
While true, sample and hold blur is _still_ a problem with plasma and it's not something you can really overcome due to the nature of how plasma panels work. On an LCD, the display and illumination mechanisms are separate so you can do tricks like black frame insertion to get around it.

>>4650970
I don’t think there’s a crisis, nowadays you can get something called a Framemaster which upscales the 240p of your console to the 1080p of the lcd tv. There’s some good My Life In Gaming videos that discuss this, search for RGB master classes. They also have special filters included to make it look like an old CLT tv, pretty cool

>>4657227
>I don’t think there’s a crisis, nowadays you can get something called a Framemaster which
Sup, marketer.

>>4656550
We had a Proscan 27" from 1994 and I'm fairly sure it was in the $400 or range.

>>4657290
>shadow mask garbage

>>4656492
You can easily do 8:7 pixels if you have more than 8 times as much horizontal resolution and 7 times as much vertical resolution. This starts to get close to the "how much resolution would you need to make a convincing CRT filter" line of thinking though. If every original pixel out of the 256x244 is rendered as an 80x70 (or whatever) block of screen pixels (or whatever), you can make the screen look like any type of CRT you want (you have enough res to simulate aperture grille, shadow mask, whatever). You just need a screen with about ten times as much resolution as TVs have right now.

>>4657078
Still won't help Zappers. They find the vertical position of the target by counting lines as they are drawn. Even if black frame insertion gives you flicker that can be detected by the light gun, you still don't have the timing information to figure out where the gun was pointing (LCD screens aren't drawn one line at a time). That's why LCD-compatible light gun mods involve hooking the gun up directly to something like the VGA output of a Dreamcast: rather than optically detecting the flash and comparing the timing to lines drawn on the screen, they get the timing directly from the sync of the video output.

>>4657326
You're getting some things mixed up here. The NES Zapper works by having the game put up a white box for maximum brightness and the strobing from it is detected by the IR sensor in the gun. A lot of light guns however work by intercepting the CRT electron beam as it moves down the screen, so it's physically impossible to get them to work on anything other than a CRT.

>>4657326
>LCD screens aren't drawn one line at a time
Actually they are, the panels are refreshed from top to bottom same as a CRT, but LCD pixels hold their state as long as power is applied, so there's no flicker.

>>4657332
>The NES Zapper works by having the game put up a white box for maximum brightness and the strobing from it is detected by the IR sensor in the gun.
Right and what about when there are multiple boxes on screen? How does Duck Hunt know which of the two ducks you shot? It's by timing, isn't it?

>>4657342
>the panels are refreshed from top to bottom
I didn't know that, but if it's true, how come I can't see it with a camera the way you can see the scanning frequency on a CRT monitor? I just tested it with a high speed camera, and I can only detect blank bands clearly with a shutter speed of 1/1000 sec or faster. On a CRT computer monitor, you see a big fat band (width corresponding to the blanking time) with 1/60 sec shutter speed. To me that suggests the LCD is scanning much faster and blanking for a much smaller amount of time.

>>4657326
>using the video signal sync pulses to time the gun
Why did it never occur to me that this was possible?

>>4657351
>Right and what about when there are multiple boxes on screen? How does Duck Hunt know which of the two ducks you shot? It's by timing, isn't it?

It probably uses the PPU scanline counters. I don't think the gun itself can detect the position of the boxes.

>>4655208
>>4657058
Are you just gonna moan about it or do you have an argument? Who the fuck else wants old ass TVs? >>4655801 mentioned sports which is the first I've heard of it, and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the amount of sports fanatics autistic enough to both notice the degraded motion clarity and be unable to live with it is also not enough to create enough demand to resurrect obsolete technology.

>>4657359
My understanding (which may be wrong) is that the gun just knows when it sees the flash. When it sees the flash, it sends a signal to the console, and the console knows which box it was telling the PPU to draw at the moment it received the "flash" signal. But the fact that different parts of the screen are drawn at different times is the key to the way it knows which box it saw.

>>4657352
It's pretty cool, I think you can actually buy this one now
http://www.thedreamcastjunkyard.co.uk/2016/11/lightconn-wireless-dreamcast-gun-that.html

>>4655791
are you fucking serious

>>4657367
I'm not part of this argument, but Asian college students who play SSBM and no other console games are also into CRTs.

>>4657374
Your reaction doesn't speak well of you either. What's the big deal man? Look around, everyone else is doing it.

I have a 42" Bravia from 2010 and when you watch sports, you can see the smear trails. Admittedly this TV is 8 years old and it's possible they've improved since.

>>4657351
>>4657359
For multiple targets in Duck Hunt it flashes each one successively on different frames. Doesn't do timing within a frame.

>>4657973
Why doesn't it work on anything but CRTs then?

>>4658014
Because it still needs to see the flash within the correct frame, modern TVs often have more than a whole frame lag. If you hooked it up to something really low latency like OSSC + one of the nice BenQ LCDs that people like for smash it should work for Duck Hunt.

>>4656313
no point in playing on a crap tv with composite? how about zero lag, looks like it did back in the day. I have never in my life had a problem with composite. RF sucks, composite is fine.

>>4658057
>composite is fine
Hahahaha fuck no it's not.

>>4658060
Im sick of you fucking video quality elitists faggots
Go suck your own dick somewhere else

>>4658034
I am very surprised to hear that, but with my limited understanding it sounds like it could work. Yet, I've never heard of anybody being able to play lightgun games for any console on any kind of non-CRT display, without extensive modification to read the video signal like that dreamcast lightgun mod I posted above.
Is what you describe different from how lightguns (other than the Zapper) for arcade systems and other consoles work? Or do you think an LCD monitor with less than 16 ms latency (or however low it needs to be, if less than that) would work with most lightguns?

I'm incredulous since I have always understood it to be taken as simple fact that lightguns are designed around CRT principles and will only ever work (in their original forms) with typical CRTs.
On some further research, I found this page which pretty much answers my questions: https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/808947-arcade-light-guns-with-a-super-low-latency-lcd/
>Most light guns don't work the way the Nintendo Zapper does. The Zapper uses simple flashing squares on screen and a photo diode. However most light guns since then use a more advanced method called 'Cathode Ray Timing'.
>In this case the light gun has access to the sync signal of the display, allowing it to know when the CRT's electron gun will start scanning across the screen
>This actually allows the Cathode Ray Timing guns to do real time tracking, much like a mouse. There is literally no way to build an LCD that would allow for a Cathode Ray Timing gun to work.
>If you're wondering why most light gun games in the arcade or at home still 'flash' it's to increase the brightness to ensure the gun more reliably sees it's position since it can get 'lost' in darker spaces even though it's tracking at all times.

So I guess the Zapper is actually completely different from the type of gun I was thinking about, and it's simple enough that it could potentially work with an LCD that is both fast and bright enough.

>>4658184
>There is literally no way to build an LCD that would allow for a Cathode Ray Timing gun to work.
Maybe not, but it sounds like you could do it with an (implausibly large) LED persistence-of-vision display that scans at the same horizontal and vertical rate as NTSC.

>>4658184
It would only work with the very simple system the Zapper uses, regular light guns couldn't work on LCD. May be possible with an OLED/micro LED/plasma if it were possible to drive it in a non standard way that emulates the 15kHz horizontal refresh, but it'd be very tricky to do in a way that still gets decent brightness, and there's not enough market for that to be a viable product.

>>4658203
>if it were possible to drive it in a non standard way that emulates the 15kHz horizontal refresh, but it'd be very tricky to do in a way that still gets decent brightness, and there's not enough market for that to be a viable product.
Sounds like a cool project for a clever hacker, though. If it's theoretically possible but hasn't been done before, it's ripe for someone to figure out soon enough.

Personally I think some distraught gamers should really check out what modern TVs are doing. I bought a Sony 900e last weekend and it gets as bright as my PVM, the blacks are rich and motion smearing or ghosting is barely visible at all. Some autist fags will probably harp on how it has 30ms whatever motion lag but I’m not Keanu in the Matrix, I don’t perceive any of that. All I’m saying is I used to hate LCDs for years but they’ve come a long way.

Guys just get a Framesmaster it’s not that hard

>>4657351
If that clown was right LCD panels wouldn't need a backlight, for one. Don't bother with him.

>>4658698
Refreshing from top to bottom != illuminated from top to bottom.

>>4657351
>>the panels are refreshed from top to bottom
>I didn't know that, but if it's true, how come I can't see it with a camera the way you can see the scanning frequency on a CRT monitor?

There's a few videos out there that show it. A CRT is refreshing at the same speed as the incoming signal, an LCD panel waits until it gets the whole frame then switches all the pixel top to bottom at a very high speed. You need a proper high speed camera to see it.

Search youtube for high speed LCD refresh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCHgmCxGEzY

>>4657313

It’s not that you can’t multiply 256x224 by some factor, the issue is that some games were designed to have that 256x224 stretched to 320x240. That’s a completely different ratio, and where a crt can stretch that image without thiit amy issue, the reliance of fixed pixels in modern displays makes it not so simple

high refresh QLED displays will save retro gaming

>>4658917
While you can't get a nice integer ratio, on a 4K display a 4:3 image is 2880x2160, so some back of the napkin calculations make that (horizontally) a 11.25x scale.

So every pixel is stretched to 11 pixels wide with every 4 pixel gets an extra 1 @ 12. And if you REALLY HONESTLY TRULY CAN see the shimmer during scrolling. Then if you can bilinear filter it and with 10 solid colour pixels + 2 softened for every 1 incoming then it's still going to be sharper than a CRT, even a PVM.

Of course if you don't WANT super sharp output but rather it to look as close to a CRT as possible then that's a wildly different problem. Maybe we can talk again at 8k TVs.

just like emulate a crt in vr

>Just use filters bro
>Like get a framemaster bro
>I mean LCDs aren't even that bad have you seen....
Are all of these people shills from reddit or what? Fuck off

>>4658917
Sure, and if you multiply by a different factor, e.g. make every 1x1 source pixel into a block of 8x7 pixels on the display, which makes the image 8 times wider and 7 times taller, you cause the image to appear stretched.

>>4658989
just emulate a vagina on to your penis nerd :^JJ

>>4659003
>shills
>actually calling things reddit
I think it is you who needs to go back.

>>4658989
Too late.

Why don't LCDs have S-video ports? I'd say that's one of the most annoying thing about playing retro consoles on LCDs, it's just composite and usually component (my mom's 4k TV has component at least), screwing over consoles that never got component support.

>>4661273
S-Video was never widely used.

>>4655208
>>4655196
MOTHER FUCKER THERE'S A COMPANY IN TEXAS THAT STILL MAKES DELORIANS.
DELORIANS.
A FUCKING MEME CAR.
Even if it's only 300 a year it just takes one enthusiast to open up a small shop.

>>4656693
>Definitely not possible to make new CRTs of any decent quality for $400 in the sort of volume that'd be possible just selling to vidya nerds.
Adjust for inflation based on Early 80s prices with todays tech. A "Big screen" would be 1200-1400 with all the bells and whistles. It would weigh 200+ pounds and there would be a global market for a dozen a month. Smaller models would move faster. If analogue can sell a SNES cart reader/emulator for the price the are, I can't see why a real deal TV would be useful.

I think the reasons are more nefarious however. They didn't stop making CRTs because they were inferior. They did it for Power. If they are predicting the end of the world by GPU usage, imagine if we all had GDM-Fw900 or better type of electric hogs. The power grid of most "civilized" nations would have collapsed.

How civil is a society that cannot have CRTs?

Old style ones could be remade and be costly, but be quite dependable. There was a company recently that was still making them for museums, and they were 3 sizes & stackable. High quality stuff with absurd price tags. My backup HDD crashed 2 days ago, so I can't find about that company. they did sell their monitors customized by request. Id love to find out.

>>4661510
>THERE'S A COMPANY IN TEXAS THAT STILL MAKES DELORIANS
They haven't made anything yet. Production was supposed to start last year.

>>4661557
>They haven't made anything yet. Production was supposed to start last year.
They are a glorified restoration company working with new and approved frames. The are the spirit of, but not new cars.

>>4661510
They don't "make" anything as far as I'm aware, just selling off the stock of original parts they purchased wholesale.

>>4661554
Modern CRTS would be much smaller just using the tech we already have.

>>4661564
Samsung and Philips already did that. The tubes were shit.

Unless you're saying the laws of physics somehow recently changed.

>>4661564
CRTs are fixed, dead-end tech. You can't really make them smaller without significant compromises.

>>4661805
>CRTs are fixed, dead-end tech. You can't really make them smaller without significant compromises.
They may be dead end, but they are exceptional in the areas of viewing. I know that this is not /vr/ but, imagine 4k true 120hz crts. The industry may be quite different.

LCDs are like dogshit. The only person brave enough to look at it is the owner.

The limit is size, and that is the ONLY advantage that LCDs have over CRT.

I have a really good "last" example of 480i CRT with Composite, component and Svideo. It looks great. I wish that this technology continued

>>4661895
>imagine 4k true 120hz crts
This is possible right now with the use of projectors. It would be tricky to set up, but it could be done.

>>4662368
Only if you count stacking multiple projectors. There are no CRT projectors that can get anywhere near 4K 120Hz, that would need 270kHz horizontal refresh, 1.2GHz signal bandwidth.

4K 60Hz interlaced is possible on high end ones though, and would look pretty sweet.

>>4650970
>CRT crisis
Pic related.
CRTs aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

>>4661895
>LCDs are like dogshit.
Why are you using LCD monitors from 2004?

I think it's mainly dumping restrictions that are getting in the way of producing new CRTs.

>>4663939
>Why are you using LCD monitors from 2004?
Where do you see an LCD?

>>4661273
Probably cost reasons. Composite and component use standard RCA jacks, not the weird S-video DIN plug. And LCD TVs used to have S-video at one time but it disappeared after the 2000s.

>>4661578
>Samsung and Philips already did that. The tubes were shit.
Well, they gave up without giving the technology much chance to mature...

This guy on craigslist in my area is selling a 27" Trinitron with s-video for a measly 40 bucks and I was lucky enough to send him an inquiry within hours of his listing, too good to be true

>>4663949
Dumping restrictions, size, weight, cost to manufacture and demand.

>>4650970
Scrapping CRT TVs is more expensive than the material they're made of.
>>4650974 has the right of it.

>>4652248
My brother's garbage has like 30+ CRT TVs for Melee tournaments.

>>4661895
>and that is the ONLY advantage that LCDs have over CRT.
Safer.

>>4664696
>and demand
Why do you think there's no demand for them, Anon-kun?

>>4664381
Nah, it was a stopgap solution to capture the MUH FLAT TEEVEE poorfags who couldn't stretch to a Plasma or LCD.

The laws of physics forbade its success and always will, technology advances or not.

>>4663176
I was talking about stacking.
>4K 60Hz interlaced is possible on high end ones though,
Link to example? I studied their specs and concluded the same but found no one who had actually done it.

>>4650970
Educate yourself and the "crisis" instantly disappears. Magic!

>>4650970
What crisis are you talking about? There's still this taiwanese manufacturer that make CRT monitors :
http://www.weiya.com.tw
They mislabel 15kHz, 24kHz and 31kHz monitors as CGA, EGA and VGA, but they still have quite a few CRT models to offer.
The only crisis there is is dumb resellers selling worn-out production monitors for prices they pulled from their ass.

>>4665316
China also makes new CRTs still but they're not very good quality compared to the 2000s Trinitrons that autists jerk off to.

>>4665323
>they're not very good quality compared to the 2000s Trinitrons that autists jerk off to.
They're crappy tube bare none.
Also
>being mad about people liking good quality tubes

>>4665323
2000s Trinitrons are shitty too, no true autist would waste his precious bodily fluids on one.

Get one from before Sony's patents expired and they consequently had to scrabble for market share.

>>4665353
>>4665323
Most consumer TVs you had games connected to back then were crap anyway. How many of you had some shitty Korean TV with RF only?

>>4665353
Alas, it appears to be the only sauce of newly manufactured CRTs remaining.

>>4666062
We had a nice 27" sony TV at home when I was a kid. It also had Péritel.
>>4666069
No, look up earlier, I posted a link to a taiwanese CRT manufacturer's website.

>>4666062
My household used to have a B&O. Never did I realize how fortunate I was compared to many children and teenagers who had to use the cheapest TVs imaginable until it broke and it has become harder to find a new 'high class' tube. Sure, it might still be cheaper than when they were brand new but good luck transporting one without a vehicle to put it in, not to mention how goddamn heavy those things are to lug around.