/vr/ - Retro Games

>it’s a “babby doesn’t understand localizations” episode

What does he say?

>can't speak Japanese
>complains about the translation not being faithful to the original
???

Thank fuck the people who localize games aren't just pandering to fucking weebs like you who want every character to be called "Ken-sama"

>>4648272
"ビネガー ピ~ンチッ!!"
lit. "Vinegar Piiinch!"
Would translate it to "Vinegar's in trouble!", myself. "Pinchi" is used by japs to mean "a bad situation".
(Vinegar being his japanese name.)

>>4648289
That's just as colloquial as "in a pickle". Your translation is stripping the line of the tone.

Localisation is more than just 1:1 translation. Just play one of the cringey robotic "faithful retranslations" that people just as clueless as you make.

>>4648303
I'm unrelated to this thread, I just came in to answer the question.
"Vinegar's in a pickle" works fine for english speakers. I just would put "in trouble" for most uses of "ピンチ".

Except him referring to himself of the third person, and the lack of any other functions or particles gives the original like a sense of childishness.

And come on, if his original name is vinegar, then it's funny as hell to use the turn of phrase "in a pickle"

>>4648329
And that’s why no one will hire you to localise games

>>4648329
Or you could you know go with the literal "Vinegar's in a pinch."
People actually used to say pinch in that way. Its where the Japs got it from.

>>4648329
>"Vinegar's in a pickle"
yes, that's usually where you find it

>>4647594
I never understood the point of that side quest.
The monsters become friendly in 1000 AD, but so what? The items they sell are much weaker than whatever you have by now, there isn't any event that requires the monsters to be friendly, and they don't even affect the ending of the game.

Back then I thought I was still missing the second part of the quest, but no, that's about it.

Flea, Slash and Ozzie
Why you dislike rock'n'roll

>>4648289
thats actually not badd

VINEGAR PIIIIINCH!!!

You guys act like these games are literary masterpieces even in their original moon runes. You're really not missing any of that "deep" plot because of localization and engrish.

>>4649824
it's cringy as shit, especially since he would've said it like a dozen times throughout the game

>>4647594
>S-senpai...
>Mi-Miko-chan...
>Onii-sama...
>Minna...
>You’re all my... nakama!!!

>>4648284

>>4647594
>>4648289
>weeb learns entry level nip
>tries to show off his skills by nitpicking at a reasonable translation for not being word by word
cringe

the name ozzie is shit

>>4648289
clearly the name should be vinny

>>4649949
Vinegar, Mayonne, Soiso (soy sauce) -> Ozzie, Flea, Slash
They changed the theme of the names away from Toriyama-style food puns, big deal

>>4647606
>>4647606
>>4648284
>>4648757
>>4649829
>>4649841
>>4649860
>duhhhh hurrr every shit garbage translation is actually good you guys because it just doesn't matter vido games are shit lol

>>4649962
those aren't puns retard

hmm so should we name the characters in a children's game after

a. food items that everyone can recognize

or

b. some shitty rock musicians that date the game horribly

i wonder

>>4649972
you have a problem with Duff McWhalen?

>>4649972
All of those musicians are still well-known and active, aside from the one who had a hit reality series and is now too old and addled to play anymore.

>>4649974
>All of those musicians are still well-known
yeah maybe if you're a boomer

>>4649975
>everybody older than me is a boomer
Boomers didn't listen to GnR or RHCP. RHCP still have hits, somehow, and people still listen to GnR, somehow.

>>4649972
no one will be eating mayo/soy sauce in the future

>people not understanding how translation works

You can't translate everything literally like an autist. You need to conform to different linguistical and cultural norms, translation needs to be in tune with the language. I suggest reading some poetry, especially if you are bilingual. You will see how those were "localized" since ever. Tip: They aren't Keikaku tier translation, matter of fact majority of them uses completely different words but meaning, rhythm, composition remains the same.

>>4649963
>they changed the name of a character fucking ruined the whole game unplayable garbage fucking shit censorship not literal translation boycott square
>>>/cripplechan/

>>4650128
I never quite understood why they changed names around without rhyme or reason. Like changing Demon King to Magus actually makes sense, I can see why they had to change that but they had no real motive to change Marledia to Nadia, now her nickname doesn't even make sense in the English version.

>>4650138
How did it not make sense in the english version that "Marle" was just a fake name she gave people? You can argue that there wasn't a need to change it, I'll agree to that, whatever man. I just for the life of me can't understand how someone can be so passionate about something so trivial. Anytime someone bitches about translation fuckups in old games that I played my thoughts are
>oh, so that's what the JP version called it? neat.

>>4648809
>I never understood the point of that side quest.
To make the world a better place?

>>4649972
>Complaining about a reference to old music
>In a game from the 90s

Neck yourself asap. Do you also complain about the Beethoven in A Clockwork Orange?

>>4648809
You get Magus's best weapon.

>>4648765
This.
"In a pinch" was literally already an English expression and doesn't need to be translated and localized.
This board seems perfectly content to let Japanese video game writers try to teach native English speakers to use their own language incorrectly.
>hurr durr the japanese call them berutu skurolas because they scroll like belts

>>4650259
Marledia -> Marle

>>4650259

Apparently Woolsey was butthurt that they couldn't fit Masamune in Final Fantasy 6 due to space constraints so he stuck it into Chrono Trigger
I wonder what was the thought process for having changed Jaki to Janus and Sara to Schala for seemingly no reason.

>>4650259
Both sides are equally passionate about this subject since the fake localized travesty is the version they grew up and are most familiar with.
Anyway in case you are a turbo weeb and are interested here's the list of localization changes and fuck ups. I don't really like what they did to Frog for one thing.
https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Translation_Differences.html

>>4650370
>weapons in FF6 can have up to 12 characters in their names (MithrilKnife)
>could fit Murasame which is the exact same amount of letters
>couldn't fit Masamune so he took it out on Chrono Trigger

Wow the amount of autism in the thread of faggots who can't even Japanese, let alone understand how translating works. You are literally nitpicking over tiny tiny details that barely make a difference to the overall game. Either stop fucking bitching and learn Japanese or shut the fuck up and go away.

>>4650138
>without rhyme or reason
The rhyme and reason was localization. You grew up in a globalized culture and are used to seeing Japanese names. The people who translated these games thought the people playing them wouldn't be able to identify with Taiyou Kamakaze-sama as well as Jim, and that absolutely used to be true. These days, no one really cares and you've got more purism elitists who get triggered by a localization than you do people who see a foreign name and think, "Who the fuck is getting ruffied? Oh, it's Luffy?"

>>4649963
Translation != localization you fucking mongrel.

>>4650138
>change Marledia to Nadia
Isn't Nadia her real name in the original, too?
And I believe "Marledia" was shortened to "Marle" because of a character limit for names.

>>4650450
Well that is the thing. Localizations which radically change names are outdated.

>>4650508
>>4650374
>https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Translation_Differences.html
Oops, turns out not to be the case?

yo the issue is not whether or not things are localized. the issue how well they are localized. execution matters.

i'd also like to see some more humility from localization specialists. i don't think i can name a single profession with less self-reflection. and i admit it does make me trust in their work less.

>>4650542
I don't think there's anything more pathetic than whiny EOPs who think they know best about a subject they don't even have the slightest idea of.

>>4650579
why do you assume that? i'm a professional translator fluent in three languages, albeit not in japanese. i mean, i get it; discrediting me is an easy cop-out for you. you could also try engaging the argument as it is.

>>4650370
>I wonder what was the thought process for having changed Jaki to Janus and Sara to Schala for seemingly no reason.
"Janus" and "Schala" sound more exotic and refined. Jaki and Sara sound like they could be the names of your fat aunt's yorkshire terriers.

>>4650595
so why janus of all things instead of, let's say, jaqi or yaki?

>>4650602
Janus is the name of a god. Jaki/Jaqi sounds like your aunt from Nashville.

>>4650602
"Janus" is more of a Roman sounding name. I've never known the character as anything other than Janus but I think it fits fairly well for an arrogant kid in a position of influence in a fallen empire. It also is more similar to Magus.

>>4650579
>EOP
I know I should lurk moar, but I’m 12 and what is this?

>>4650579
also, why do people get so defensive when you point at the fact that quality matters for localization as well? localization isn't sacrosanct.

>>4650609
>>4650610
the original did not reference deities in regard to janus and schala, and certainly not roman ones which would be entirely out of place in this setting and world-building. why inject the localization script with these unsolicited references? do they really help bring the creators' vision across?

>>4650616
The reference to Roman mythology has nothing to with the game setting, I only mention the names etymology to give an idea as to why it might sound differently to one culture. If he were called "Alexander" it wouldn't be a reference to a historical figure, but the etymology of the name provides context for why it sounds different to another culture. Janus and Schala are just cool names that have different connotations to one locale than Jaki and Sara.

>>4650627
nah man i can't let you do that. janus and schala are introducing an entirely different refence framework, as do the magi. it's entirely unwarranted and totally random. nothing but injection on woolsey's part.

"just cool" isn't a great yardstick to measure quality in localization. "just cool" gives you unwarranted memes and ebonics in stuff now. are we really cool with that?

and you know what? this sort of criticism is fine. it's not EOP weeb elitism. professional localization specialists need to be able to deal with this level of criticism if they don't want to get called hacks.

>>4650585
If Japanese isn't one of your fluent languages, then don't talk about it.

>>4650642
you keep doing this, but why?

>>4650641
>amateur (a person with little to no knowledge of a certain field) thinks its okay to criticize experts (who have studied and learned experience in a field)

>>4650648
The exact reason I said above. You cannot build a house unless you have the knowledge to do it. If you don't have that knowledge you do not build a house. It's really simple.

>>4650653
but i'm not an amateur. i translate between german, italian, and croatian. legal correspondence, technical manuscripts, novels. i have experience and i know what i'm talking about, so i'd like to ask you to stop trying to discredit me and start engaging the actual content of the argument, if you can.

>>4648289
What the fuck, that's basically the same thing as the translation.

>>4650641
You can’t rely on the same connotations or perceptions in one language as you would in another. If you’re using names to evoke implied meanings, then you need to adapt them for the audience if you want the meaning to translate. An English-speaking audience isn’t going to know what Maou or Jaki mean, let alone their relation in meaning.

>>4650667
but what does magus and janus tell me, and is that somehow getting me close to what the japanese authors intended to achieve with 魔王 and ジャキ? because this is where you can pinpoint quality in localization. does "magus" evoke the same thing to our ears that "魔王" does to the japanese audience? if not, it's not a good localization. "just cool" just doesn't cut it.

i'll keep repeating myself because i really want to hammer this point home. it's not about dichotomy between conservative/literal translation and imaginative/liberal localization. there's no such dichotomy. this is not a culture war.

narrative texts (in the broader sense of the term) always and necessarily require localization. but localization can vary wildly in quality. you need the means to measure quality and hold it to standards. it should not be blasphemous to demand quality and criticize localization specialists.

getting all defensive about this because you think you're on the right side of an executive decision between two (entirely fictional) modes of transfering meaning from one language to another says more about yourself than anything else.

i would also add that this sort of discussion is incredibly insular and self-absorbed in the wider field of narrative and literature translation. it's incredible how far people stick their heads up their own asses over these matters.

>>4650698
Okay, so if you’re the expert here, then suggest some alternative names that carry the same connotations. If you’re second-guessing Woolsey here, you should have an improvement in mind.

>>4650662
You are talking about localizing a game from Japanese to English, about a game that was localized for the North American market specifically, at a time when that market had little to no knowledge of Japan or Japanese culture, and when there was no set standard of how to localize a game for that specific target audience, as if it were a culture-less, meaningless, static object created in a vacuum.

You say that you have experience translating novels, so you should know that. Localizing and translating things are very different; when you are localizing something you are changing content so that it makes more sense and feels natural to the native speaker of that language; things relating to the target culture will take precedence over that of the original. The ultimate goal is to make it sound as if it were written by a person native to the target culture. Translating something like a technical or legal document is not the same; these are indeed things that are cultureless and therefore void of cultural differences or implications.

But I digress, as I said localizing and translating are not the same thing, and if you have had experience working with Japanese (language and culture) and target language and culture X, even in a pure translating context, then you would have the authority to make a reputable argument as to why X was done instead of Y. Instead of considering the language/culture difference you are saying "Why didn't the just directly translate the words into English" or "This word does not mean the same as the Japanese word".

>>4650698
I like how you criticize others for "thinking you are on the right side" but you are talking down to other people as if you are on the right side. Get your own head out of you own ass, as you put it, before running around accusing others of doing the same.

>>4650709
Seriously I don't know why they just didn't name him Satan.

>>4650731
>Seriously I don't know why they just didn't name him Satan.
I can think of one big reason, and it starts with N.

>>4649973
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XnKNOyCFlE

>>4650709
Just for the sake of Devil's advocate, here are some justifications for the names that are used in the original N. American localization.

Melchior, Belthasar, Gaspar - the 3 Gurus / the 3 Wise Men (Bosch, Gash and Hash, do these sound like names of Gurus?)
Janus - the two faced Roman God of gates, doorways and duality
Magus- keeping with the biblical names, literally means a sorcerer, since this is his main form of attack, as well as giving him something that actually sounds like a name and not just "wizard" or "sorcerer" or "magician"
Period dialect - it keeps steady with not only Western ideas of how people talked in different periods, but also with the different dialects used by the cave people in the past and by robots in the future.

>>4650735
Shhh we don't say the N word around here. I was being sarcastic, and I know why, but in light of that you have several names that are obvious biblical references mentioned above. Oh Nintendo and their inconsistency in following their rules.

>>4650735
>and it starts with N
Nancy-boys?

>>4649976
Rock sucks, perhaps it was still something in the 90's.
But anyone who listens to it in 2018 should be gassed.

>>4650731
>Localizing and translating things are very different; when you are localizing something you are changing content so that it makes more sense and feels natural to the native speaker of that language; things relating to the target culture will take precedence over that of the original. The ultimate goal is to make it sound as if it were written by a person native to the target culture. Translating something like a technical or legal document is not the same; these are indeed things that are cultureless and therefore void of cultural differences or implications.
i know, see >>4650698
>it's not about dichotomy between conservative/literal translation and imaginative/liberal localization. there's no such dichotomy.
>narrative texts (in the broader sense of the term) always and necessarily require localization.

you keep arguing that localization is necessary. i'm not denying it's necessary. i acknowledge, confirm, and affirm the fact that localization is necessary.

this is a phantom debate, really. the actual point is not about if things get localized, but how they get localized. the if of things is an easily winnable debate -- of course things need to be localized. the how is harder to win (by design), so for some reason people default back to the if. it gets a bit tiresome.

>>4649972
I don't care a bit about rock musicians but they're a far better inspiration for names than fucking condiments. The reference isn't the point of the name dumbass. It's just a name.

>>4650821
I never said that it necessary. Must be confusing me with the other guy. You cleared up what I was trying to say in your second post, which I didn't see until I posted my reply.

>>4651083
They could have named them Ketchup, Mustard and left Mayonnaise because those are pretty much the American equivalents to Soy Sauce, Vinegar (Mirin), and Mayo in Japan.

>>4650374
>fake localized travesty
I grew up with the original FFIV(2us) translation which is an actual travesty. I love the original Engrish but of course it could be improved. If you call the nitpicks in the original CT translation a "travesty" you're fucked in the head.

>>4649963

>>4651116
>I grew up with the original FFIV(2us) translation which is an actual travesty.

Shut up, you spoony bard!

>>4648329
The amusing thing is that "Vinegar's in a pickle" is far more of an amusing pun than what Woolsey came up with.

>>4650698
>does "magus" evoke the same thing to our ears that "魔王" does to the japanese audience?
魔王 can evoke both the idea of a powerful sorcerer and a demon king. Magus is fine if they want to emphasize the magic aspect, especially if they want something that can also function as a name AND fit into the 5 character limit they had to work with.

>>4649975
>>4649972
They were still relevant names in 1995 when the game was released in the US. Why are you annoyed that a retro video game is referencing retro music? I mean Guns 'n' Roses have kind of always sucked but I don't think that's really the issue here.