/vr/ - Retro Games

>>4637076
That's not hardcore though, hardcore requires permanent consequences.

>>4637076
I agree thats retarded to complain about save scumming after all most games that has it was balanced around it.

It's discouraged if you're recording an LP of a game. If you're just playing it yourself, then it's ok.

>>4637076
If I die once in a game then I will never play it again.

>>4637106
The only way to play

I don't really consider it savescumming to reload after a legitimate death.

It's savescumming if you use it in order to avoid making game theory optimal decisions. For example, constantly reload to perform a dangerous task in an RPG that your character has a very low chance of pulling off, when you should clearly be either improving your character's skills in that area, or finding another way to achieve your goal entirely.

>>4637076
>where you have precognizance and an entire game's worth of time to prepare for?
sadly, we have to make decisions and assess risks in light of the fact that our actual real lives only have a finite amount of time available

I do it a lot in X-COM, mostly in TFTD because you can't survive very long without extensive saving and reloading. If something horribly fucks up, like half my squad getting grenaded, I reload and try a different strategy. It's mostly early game, by the time I have Ion Armor and other advanced equips, then save state abusing isn't necessary anymore.

I do it a lot in X-COM, mostly in TFTD because you can't survive very long without extensive saving and reloading. If something horribly fucks up, like half my squad getting grenaded, I reload and try a different strategy. It's mostly early game, by the time I have Ion Armor and other advanced equips, then save state abusing isn't necessary anymore. On the last run I did, I had four soldiers grenaded at the start of a mission including my commander because I somehow forgot to equip him with armor. I accepted the loss and didn't reload that time because I figured it was my own fault for forgetting to check armor properly before starting the mission. He got replaced as commander by another soldier who had better stats anyway and more kills.

>>4637106
kys

>>4637134
Well XCOM has bullshit statistics so playing those games without saves is for the clinically insane.

>>4637076
I always found it weird that this shot is all over the place, even though it's from February 1996, almost 10 months before the game's release.

>>4637106

Same. I'll snap the dvd to be sure, and make one cut in my arm with the shattered piece each time. The scar will be a reminder of my failure.

>>4637146

Nah, just the new ones. You can bounce back from severe failures in the old ones. I think iron-man is the best way to play the old ones, actually.

>>4637264
In the new ones give you a lot more tools to get around RNG though, which is why it hurts you so much more to lose guys than in the old XCOM. Once you understand the mechanics well its pretty unlikely that you'll really get fucked by things you couldn't have predicted on all but the highest difficulty.

It depends on the game.

I love savescumming in Fallout 1 and 2, but would think savescumming would ruin it in games like Resident Evil or Dead Rising.

>>4637076
Alright Mr intellectual When you play hardcore the entire game resets you can't predict anything.
You clearly have never even touched or been near a roguelike.

>>4637146
I can usually beat UFO Defense missions without savescumming but TFTD is a different story.

>>4637106
if u die in a game then you die irl

>>4637134
>>4637102
All the LPers do it even though they claim they don't. I've seen any number of X-COM LPs where the guy makes a remark to suggest that he savescummed a few times on some mission.

>>4637089
like breaking one of your bones every time you lose?

>>4638237
Permanent within the realm of the game wise-ass.

But feel free to break your own bones if you want.

>>4637076
This might actually be the stupidest thing I've ever read. Yes, having to restart from the beggining of the fucking game and wasting countless time on preparing for EVERY encounter is a tiny bit more difficult than reloading a save over and over until you clear one single obstacle. I mean holy fuck man are you seriously this retarded?

>>4637106
you sound like my retarded autistic former friend of mine named Nick from years ago

>>4637106
samefagging but kys for real, my mans

>>4637106
Permafail

>>4637076
This is a lot of effort for what amounts to really weak bait.

>>4637134
Got a low monthly rating? Lost seven guys on that last terror mission? Council of Funding Nations is pissed at you? A good Dreadnought raid cures everything that ails you. Particularly when it's a Dreadnought full of Gillmen.

Savescumming is childhood tier come on. Its ruined so many games for me when I didnt know better.

I just dont savescum for funmode or save restrict/ironman for the true challenge experience.

>>4637076
Because it allows for idiotic assumption of risk without appropriate consequences. Regardless of the game, if you get into a situation of

>if I attack the whatever, I've probably got about a 20% chance of winning and something really good happening, and an 80% of losing and it sucking
>Ehh, what the hell, let's try it, and if it goes bad, I'll load

Allows for the retaining of benefits if it goes well, but not the same likelihood of loss if it goes poorly. It's essentially cheating.

>>4637076
I don't know about rts games, but save scumming ruins roguelikes super fast and usually leads the people doing it to declare the whole genre is garbage.

>>4638395
>beating a boss with 10% health and no healing items is easier than beating it with full life and a full bag and all the gear that specifically counters all of its attacks

>>4638651
/v/ in /vr/ disguise detected

If the game provides easy access to quick loading and quick saving this means devs didn't do their homework on game balance and instead of being able to overcome any level in one go they expect players to get stuck on random parts and they can't help it. This is fine.

There's a special place in hell for save state scumming though

>>4638874
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt2uyDqbA-Q

>>4638865
>still thinking there was ever a difference
4chan snowflakes are the best

>>4638874
>games must be level based to be good

Never heard this word before... What is savescumming?

Like just saving your game in general or using like save states like a faggot?

>>4638979
level based games are great you pleb

>>4638980
it's constantly saving the game right before things are going to be bad so you can keep retrying the section with zero consequences, the save/load mechanisms encourage bad game design which in turn encourages savescumming

>>4638980
Maybe look up the term instead of asking to have it spoonfed to you like a fucking retard. lose extra points if you also have to look up spoonfed

>>4638997
>level based games are great you pleb

I didn't say otherwise

>>4639004
Lmao it's not even a common term faggot.

>>4638997
O I see.

Yeah that ruins fallout and elder scrolls imo

>>4637076
>Why do people hate save scumming so much when it's the most hardcore way to play?
I don't play games to be "hardcore", I play them to have fun. To me, constantly saving and reloading until I get whatever the perfect result is, is not fun.

>>4639014
How are you old enough to post here yet have never even heard the term? Holy shit man.

>>4639014
It’s pretty damn common newfag, did you only start gaming recently?

>>4639014
I don't think it applies to Fallout or TES, the games are much bigger in scope and require long term planning so it makes more sense to manage your saves.

Think stuff like Quake, when you try for 30 minutes to beat one section with 1 HP remaining instead of starting the stage from the beginning and doing a better job at keeping your health high

>>4639043
Homm 3 is another example.

>>4639043
>I don't think it applies to Fallout or TES, the games are much bigger in scope and require long term planning so it makes more sense to manage your saves.

Or like the other guy said, X-COM because of the numerous cheap bullshit the game does.

>>4638863
>>beating a boss with 10% health and no healing items is easier than beating it with full life and a full bag and all the gear that specifically counters all of its attacks
Yeah, because when you restart a game from the fucking beginning, you're guaranteed to encounter that same boss with full life and items, right? Pure autism. Restarting the game means you have to not only prepare yourself not only for one segment, but the ENTIRE game. On occasion you might find yourself in a position where it's basically impossible to proceed in a game because you don't have enough health/ammo/items to progress, but that's a rare occurrence which really has nothing to do with this argument. OP is basically saying that reloading a game at a particular point over and over until you beat it is somehow more hardcore than having to play through the whole fucking game until you beat that segment. That is beyond retarded.

>>4640818
>because when you restart a game from the fucking beginning, you're guaranteed to encounter that same boss with full life and items
>not improving as you play
How do you even manage to operate a keyboard?

>>4640967
>improving as you play means you are guaranteed to do better every time
Are you legitimately retarded?

>>4640967
this is the stupidest thing ive ever read but given that youre trying to argue that savestates are more hardcore than restarting a game from the beginning its no surprise that youd say some dumb shit like this. i guess nobody in sports ever gets injured because they always improve as they play right? lmao idiot

>>4637106
I do this but in RPGs and I quit as soon as a party member dies. It's why I've never finished FFIV

>>4638429
He's obviously joking you spastic.

>>4640973
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/improve

>>4641120
Nigger are you seriously too dense to understand the concept that "improving" at something doesn't guarantee that you'll always do it correctly? Please tell me you're just trolling and aren't really this retarded.

>>4641120
Not him but you saw the word guarantee, right? You learn more from losing than winning, and it's a game after all. What's the problem?

>>4641193
>What's the problem?
The problem is that he's a turbotard trying to defend savescumming, which has devolved into him pretending that every time you attempt something you're going to do it better at it the next time you attempt it. For the record, I don't think there's anything wrong with saving in games, but to assert that reloading saves is more hardcore than starting over is laughable, and asserting that restarting/practicing automatically means you will be more prepared for a particular obstacle is weaponized autism. If that were the case, there wouldn't be "worst speedrunner fail" videos on YT. The guy is just a retard.

>>4637134
xcom is one of the few games where savescumming is unacceptable. It's impossible to lose xcom. Taking losses, even losing an entire squad and the skyranger is part of the game. Absorb those losses and push through. Don't be a pussy.

>>4641161
https://www.google.com/search?q=improving

>>4641221
Okay you've convinced me you don't understand what practice is.

>>4642602
Okay, it's clear now that I'm dealing with someone that has a severe mental disorder so let's make this very simple. Let's say you're playing Quake, and you decide to do a no death run, right? So you play maybe 5 levels, you get to a difficult part with only a 100 shells, 50 nails, and 50 health. Then, I get raped by a Shambler and die, okay? Now your argument is, if I start over, I am GUARANTEED to have more than 100 shells, 50 nails, and 50 health, because "you improve as you play". That is a completely retarded argument. It implies that you will always do everything exactly the way you did it the first time and better than you did it the first time. By this logic, speedrunners would never fail, anyone who was good at anything would never fail because they always "improve". Do you understand why this is such a retarded argument?

Honestly, I realize you're probably trolling and just trying to get me flustered, but if not you are legitimately one of the stupidest people I've ever spoken to. Re-examine your argument and realize that you're only arguing to be "right" instead of being correct.

>>4642654
You are pulling the word guarantee out of the discussion and misusing it. No you are not guaranteed to have more items, that's not what he meant. It's that unless you were not trying at all, you personally are almost guaranteed to improve somewhat because that's what practice and learning is.

>>4642718
>You are pulling the word guarantee out of the discussion and misusing it.
No, you/he is simply ignoring it. Try actually reading the thread. From the beginning I said:
>because when you restart a game from the fucking beginning, you're guaranteed to encounter that same boss with full life and items, right?
To which he replied:
>not improving as you play
Thus implying that you must be guaranteed to do better every time just because you had more practice. My point still stands and he's still being a retard.

>>4642728
Yeah and I'm back to you clearly don't understand the process of practice and improvement and are obsessed with the word guarantee.

>>4642741
>that's not what he meant
>I'm back
Lmao caught samefagging red-handed. Imagine being so buttblasted that you have to invent people to agree with you. I bet you'll even try to say that last post wasn't you.

Okay then genius, explain to me how the process of "practice and improvement" works. Because as I see it, just because you practice doesn't mean you'll always do something better than you did it before. I literally said "yeah, because you're guaranteed to do better right", and you said ">not improving as you play", that's literally you saying that you ARE guaranteed to do better every time which is pure stupidity. Either admit that you misspoke and meant something different or accept that you are wrong. Any logical person examining your argument would say you were being fucking retarded.

>>4641678
>It's impossible to lose xcom

Unless one of those missions where on Turn 1, a random Blaster Bomb flies into the Skyranger and obliterates your entire squad.

pc games are all bad because of this
unless it's multiplayer
built-in savestates gaming no wonder the biggest neckbeards always love pc

>>4642750


This was my first reply
>>4641193
No I'm not going to spoonfeed you how to improve lol

>>4642758
>No I'm not going to spoonfeed you how to improve lol
Yeah because you don't have an argument and you fucked up you samefagging dipshit.

>>4642758
your first reply was an argument in anon's favor?

>>4637076
half the fun in diablo is from permadeath, anything else just trivializes the game

>>4638205
the yogscast playthroughs were all ironman and streamed live, no savescumming
on superhuman even

>>4642821
Was it UFO Defense on Superhuman or TFTD on Superhuman? The difficulty curve with the latter is quite a bit greater.

>>4642824
both
they failed a few times as well

>>4637106
based, enjoying the softcore gamer tears

>>4637268
>I love savescumming in Fallout 1 and 2
savescumming ruins RPGs retard.

>>4642845
>implying it doesn't ruin everything else
>plays doom
>saves
>open door
>dies
>reload
>open door
>20% health left
>nope.tga
>open door
>lures single enemy
>kills
>saves
>lures another
>kills
>save
truly masterrace

>>4642767
Lol

>>4642824
I watched some of Yeti's TFTD runs, but he used XComUtil to disable mind control. I would not do that myself. Savescumming I'm ok with, but not using hax like that.

>>4642850
yes you are correct it ruins everything but that retard claimed that it depends and somehow it fits in RPGs like Fallout more than action games

>>4637076
>Why do people hate save scumming so much
Why do people even give a fuck about how someone else chooses to play a game?

>>4642957
people who hardcored their way through a game dont want to be confused with people who savescummed through a game when they say "i beat x"
no one else cares

>>4642965
One one else cares about either of those people though. No one cares that mr hardcore doesn't like the eay mr casual played either. So the whole thing is a wash.

>>4637134
A lot of times it's like solving a puzzle.

>walk guy around a corner
>alien snipes him
>reload and think over a way we can get the bugger out of there

>>4637076
>Why do people hate save scumming so much?
bragging rights & e-peen stroking.

if you feel that you need to validate yourself to a buch of faceless people online that you'll never meet IRL that's more of a you problem.

>>4642986
And do you not understand how that's cheating?

>>4642754
You lose fewer guys in X-COM with an experienced squad. It's hard to do much with a bunch of rookies who can't aim for shit. On the other hand, the AI does intentionally target your officers--if an alien is presented with the choice between shooting a captain and a squaddie, he'll always take the former. This is kind of cheap, although it does create openings for lower ranking soldiers to ascend the ranks.

>>4643084
>And do you not understand how that's cheating?
That would be if you did something like >>4642884

>>4643090
Sure that's also cheating, but it doesn't make your cheating any better. You're breaking the game, which is fine. Just be honest at least.

Depends. Do you think it's cheating to land and immediately abort a Lobsterman trawler mission in April when your dudes only have Plastic Aqua Armor, or do you think you have to do the (hopeless) mission and go down fighting for honor and glory and all that.

>>4643117
Depends.
Starting a new game isn't cheating. Continuing with that game even if failure is inevitable isn't cheating. Save scumming over and over until you find what will let you win is cheating, but might also teach you more than the other two.

You can't save state abuse in Cydonia/T'leth anyway, it disables save games there and the whole thing has to be beaten in one sitting.

>>4643113
Not him but the X-COM games are pretty broken and cheaty to begin with.

>aliens always getting full visibility in the dead of the night

>>4643202
They're aliens...

>>4643204
I feel like both sides should probably have access to psionic vision if it's going to exist at all.

>>4643202
Don't aliens also get to cheat a bit with psionics?

>>4643309
AFAIK no, they follow the same psionic rules as the player.

>you have to see an enemy to be able to mind control him
>psionic strength weakens by 5 points every square further from the enemy

I've found this out the hard way too.

>disarm guys that are known psy weaklings and leave them in the back of the Skyranger
>move your good troops into the UFO
>as you get closer to the Sectoid leader, he's able to mind rip some soldier he couldn't get at when he was halfway across the map
>dude drops a grenade in the middle of your squad

>>4642884
Yeah that kind of eliminates the satisfaction you get from walking into a closet and gunning down the jackass in there who's been spending the entire mission panicking your troops.

>>4637076
it just turns reflex based problem solving to puzzle solving.

>>4643259
But... They're aliens.... Not humans

>>4638205
On one LP I saw, the guy raids a Sectoid base and without explicitly saying it, he implied that he'd done an earlier test run to find out what soldiers were psionically weak so he could prep beforehand and give the psy weaklings laser pistols (this is a common UFO Defense strategy--soldiers with laser pistols can't scratch anyone in Power Suits).

>>4637076
>The DevTeam has arranged an automatic and savage punishment for pudding farming. It's called pudding farming.

>>4643640
i always felt that it took a special kind of ego from a dev to get upset at someone enough to punish them for using cheats or exploits in a singleplayer game.

>>4638205
That makes sense though if your purpose for playing is to make a video.

That one anon deserves a proper response. He thinks starting from the beginning is harder because he's a bad player, and by that I mean winning or losing is a matter of chance, not skill. Anybody can win by save scumming if they get lucky, so starting from the beginning is more difficult because it's harder to get lucky over the entire course of a game. If you're a bad player.

Of course that just proves my point even more since reloading from a smaller period of time works against the cumulative luck factor (unless you're obviously gaming things by rewinding gambles to always get the best outcome), forcing you to improve your skills to get yourself out of a bad situation.

>>4638428
hi nick

>>4637076
>haw haw we PC gamers are WAY more skilled than console kiddies
>fuck this part's kinda hard...
>quicksave
>quickload
>quicksave
>quickload
>quicksave
>quickload
>quicksave
>quickload
>fuck yeah finally beat it, console kiddies btfo

>>4637076
It's more hardcore to commit to an on-the-fly decision and succeed than to just throw yourself against a wall in trial-and-error.

>>4645626
At least PC gamers can install the game, or set up the emulator, in the first place. The ability to savescum is the payoff of not being an absolute brainlet.

>>4644830
You make the same weak argument over and over

>>4637106
What a fucking casual. If I die in game I kill myself IRL

>>4637076
>mfw savescum save states.
Hear me out before you boil, I never savestate if there isn't a way to save beforehand. For example, if I get fucked during a bossrush, I start from scratch. If I can't save and it's two consecutive chapters then I start from the first one. Shit like that is unavoidable; if I can re do everything from scratch and is RNG proof, then I just reload the save state.

I'm an old man, and I don't have time to redo the last 30 minutes of whatever game I played from the previous savepoint. I can save scum, close the game, and pick it back up where I left off when I have the time. Haters gonna hate, but they are children with too much time on their hands.

why do you care how other people play their games, what's wrong with you?

>>4645912
B-b-b-but you can't do that! You have to practice so you can 1cc the game or you're not a TRUE GAMER!

>>4637106
>mfw self-imposed challenges are actually getting in the way of just having fun
>mfw trying to perma a game thats not suited for permadeath
>tfw saves feel like cheating

I blame past nethack addictions

>>4646315
Why would you put a self imposed challenge on yourself if it didn't make tge experience more fun? The point of permadeath being in roguelikes is to embrace it as part if the fun.

>>4646456
Once you start you can't go back without feeling let down.

>>4638180
One time I did a TFTD playthrough and somehow never got any Aquatoid terror missions, which means I never got a Calcinite corpse and thus never got melee weapons. Lobsterman battles were fucking Sisyphean.

>>4638180
One time I did a TFTD playthrough and somehow never got any terror missions or base defenses with Calcinites, which means I never got a Calcinite corpse and thus never got melee weapons. Lobsterman battles were fucking Sisyphean.

>>4637076
Who cares what someone else thinks of your playstyle?

>>4646885
So you automatically screw yourself over if you ever try a challenge then discover it's not fun?

>>4638267
>a shitty flash called "one chance" is the most hardcore game out there

>>4637076
I can't explain it. It feels good to savescum. Something about autism or OCD, but I've had this itch that won't go away when I play a game unless I research everything, spoil myself completely, and savescum as much as possible.

>>4648058
That just means you're more interested in learning about a game than playing it, which is great if it brings you joy.

>>4648061
Not him but thank you for validating my desire to savescum, I've been struggling to get into games like UFO because I feel bad for being bad, but I guess that was a self-imposed peer-pressure kinda thing.

I do indeed enjoy learning about things more than anything, in fact now I realize the only games I like are those in which you keep learning new things up to at least 75% of the game, and my favorites have you learning new stuff well beyond their completion.

*reloads when has 97 health instead of 100 after a section*

*reloads if used 17 bullets but could've used only 13*

>>4648350
This was me when I played Half-Life. The wasp gun saved me a lot of pain.

>>4648350
>>4648431
>On the hardest difficulty, Doom forces you to play ironman and deletes your save when you die
I love it when games force you to man up and overcome your childish obsessions to exchange them for real determinations

>>4638237
Omg! I do this!

The doctor said I need to take a break from super ghouls and ghosts.
I can't move my fingers anymore...

>>4648689
le haha xD

>>4648684
plating video games is childish however you do it.

>>4645802
So, you're a ghost?

>>4648692
you're really a little bitch if you let other people tell you shit like that

Cool, pic semi related..

>>4650652
Fucking hang yourself
https://derpibooru.org/1262100

>>4637106
I'm the same way. I also stop watching movies when I think the protagonist would have likely died.

>>4637106
This is actually how normies play games desu.

>>4637106
Must be a 12 yr old girl