/vr/ - Retro Games

becus satrun an playstatin don have real 3d!

>no tony hawk
>no resident evil 2 or 3
>system seller was a game where you fly through rings on a 2D plane
>3D fighters that were still worse than Tekken 3
>a gimped version of Daytona USA
>no Squaresoft or Namco support
>got less Konami and Capcom games than the ps1
>shit versions of Tomb Raider and Wipeout

why was the saturn so much worse than the playstation, /vr/? I'd even wager the n64 was better

>>4628586
please ignore this bait

>>4628586
>even the n64 was better
Niggaplease the n64 is the best console period

>>4628586
>I'd even wager the n64 was better
Japanese Saturn library was unironically better tho

quake on saturn isn't a proper port it's just some other game that pretends to be quake

>>4628573
affine texture mapping, basically there's no floating point values, so if you want to set the vertx at a point between 1.0 and 2.0, it's gonna end up in 1.0 or 2.0 and never in between

as far as my understanding goes

>>4628586

bbbbut muh Japanese exclusives!!!! ;_;

>>4629008
Kill yourself you meme spouting faggot

>>4628625
>>4629008
Apart from a handful of exceptions, most of the Japanese exclusives are trash.

>>4628573
It's not even running on the Quake engine. The guys that did the port just made up their own engine and slapped Quake looking shit into it.

>>4628573
I don't know, why?

>>4628625
it's really cute that saturn fans try to poo on the n64, knowing full well they will always be in playstation's shadow

Saturn was a second rate playstation. This is the fact that the fanboys cannot stomach

>>4628643
That's PS1
Saturn uses quads instead of triangles and has some funky pixel thing going on

>>4629290
PS1 >>> J-Saturn >> N64 > W-Saturn

>>4628643
I like how your very technical explanation has nothing to do what is shown in the webm

>>4628606
The only correct answer.

It's called "perspective correct texture mapping" which apparently Saturn and playstation lack because it requires a division instruction per pixel, though some renderers would cheat a bit and only do a division every 8 pixels and then interpolate from there. This is why the SGI designed n64 was better.

>>4629432
well that's what causes the stretch effect in your webm

>>4629290
??? Saturn was an at-home proxy for the arcade.

>>4629583
Your post explains jittering vertices like in Playstation games for example, has nothing to do with weird perspectives in textures

>>4629602
I'd imagine the absence of floats could cause this, either way I don't know, it was just a guess.

>>4628573
>why does this distortion happen in saturn games?
poor programming, limited hardware abilities? i put it down to poor programming.

>>4628573
>apparently Saturn and playstation lack because..
because nothing. not all games suffered from this problem.

>This is why the SGI designed n64 was better.
nobody mentioned the n64.. but yeah, it wasn't better. they made up for it with poor draw distance and anti-aliasing hell using tiny little textures with fuck all colours. some perspective distortion is awful on the n64. have you ever played it before? it was released in the mid 90s, way before you were born. ;)

> WOW IT'S SURE SO MUCH BETTER
please. get out.

>>4628573
Kind of the same reason textures get bent along triangle edges on PS1.

The system doesn't really have the processing power to calculate texture alignments accurately, so it does some more simplistic calculations that will produce the right answer (or close to it) in most situations.

The saturn's solution to this is arguably better than the Playstation's was as the warping occurs less frequently and is even across the whole surface.

PS1 distorts along the triangle
Saturn distorts across the quad

>>4628640
>>4628643
>>4629027
>>4630105
This distortion happens in EVERY Polygonal saturn game, not just Quake. I’d post more webms but I’m phoneposting.

>>4630129
> EVERY
whatever.

>I’d post more webms but I’m phoneposting
i don't care.

>>4630165
Why did you respond then? Was it to show indifference to whore for upvotes? That’s not it works on this site, newfag

>>4630315
he's very cool and aloof

>>4629428
>PS1
nice shovelware, faggot, but where are the good games?

>>4630363
>where are the good games?
On the N64 of course.

>>4630364
N64 has no gaems

>>4628573
OP is a tremendous cocksucking faggot. This was obviously recorded in an emulator.

Footage of Quake on an actual, real Saturn shows none of these issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI0Q0VWOp3E

>>4630382
You're either really thick or extremely blind because I can see it, clear as day, in the video you posted.

>>4630382
You blind fuck piece of shit.

>>4630382
>Calls OP a tremendous cocksucking faggot
>While sucking cock this hard
Seriously kiddo. Go out and get some friends

>>4630415
I'm still fairly sure this is because of the absence of floating point calculations, probably deliberately because they slow down the Saturn or because it doesn't support it in VDP2.

>>4630423
I mean they can probably look alright in far distance because of the low resolution, but when you want that precise calculation when close you can see the glitch.

The Saturn version is an absolute abortion that never should have been made. Retarded control scheme, awful graphics, doesn't even run on the real Quake engine. The only port worth playing is the N64 version.

>>4630429
you what? Quake 64 is an awful, bland version of the game. N64 version somehow has less complex geometry then saturn version. at least saturn version has atmosphere. Controlwise the saturn works pretty well all things considered, can even use saturns 3d controller.

>>4628573
because textures are transformed without perspective. Only the cornerpoints of the triangle are moved on a 2d plane according to their 3d position relative to the camera. There is never real 3d like voxels would have. Even in modern games all 3d models are 2d sprites placed in a position relative to their 3d position on the flat camera 2d plane...

The difference to what modern graphic cards do is in modern "3d" transformations the pixels of the texture are distorted relative to the perspective making it look more 3d. Again this draws again a 2d sprite because monitors are 2d anyways.

But still voxels are still more 3d because every pixel on screen is rendered as a 3d position to the 2d position of the screen. And dont get me started on the possibilities for awesome physics if we had voxels and no shit polygons. Fuck nvidia, fuck radeon...

>>4630460
PS: If you dont understand do the following. Open a program like flash or photoshit. Place a rectangular photo on the stage. Cut it into two triangles (diagonal cut). Convert each triangle into a movieclip (flash). Set the transformation point for each triangle into one of the corners.
Now is where this starts what psx/saturn does:
You can now align this photo into any perspective grid. If you align it, ONLY USE SKEW, SCALE AND ROTATE, no other transform tool like perspective transform!. ONLY SKEW, SCALE and ROTATE.

If you now align the photo with some perspective lines you will see where the weird effect comes from.

Because flash is the best program, before adobe got it into its dirty claws, I made a quick video of what I just wrote.

>>4630382
in the past three days I've seen like ten posts along the lines of "fuck you you stupid fucking cocksucker fag". Are they literally all from you? What is your fixation on cocks?

>>4628986
>>4627067
>>4624746
>>4628813
>>4625829

anyways, here's some more distortion, and YES the triangular warping is present on real hardware too

>>4630717
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>4630441

Without getting into a Saturn vs. N64 pissing contest, the N64 version of quake is fantastic. I'd argue the more genuine level geometry and the fantastic Aubrey Hodges soundtrack mean Quake 64 has tons of atmosphere.

More importantly, the controls and physics run as smoothly as the PC version. I'm not saying the N64 version hasn't got downsides, but it's an excellent version of Quake.

The Saturn version is most impressive for pushing the limits of the Saturn. But, the ememy and player physics are all different which modifies the feel and the challenge. I'd love to play them side by side one day to get a real sense for it.

>>4630382
>have never seen a Saturn ever but keeps on posting

>>4630717
I JUST WANT MINE SUCKED OK?

It's not just affine mapping. It's that despite talk of quads vs. tris the Saturn hardware really is deforming sprites, not texture mapped quads.

First, information. Most hardware when drawing polygons can't draw outside the framebuffer or it can but you don't want it to. Long story short you want to make sure that all your pixels will land inside of the display buffer. Let's talk about triangles on the PS1 first so you understand the normal case. So what happens when you've got a triangle with 1 of the 3 points outside the display? You have to clip it at the edge boundary. This results in a quad. You calculate the two new points that intersect with the display edge, then split the resulting quad into 2 triangles, however you also need to calculate new UV coords for the texture map because you aren't drawing from the same point. This is easy, trust me, it's easy. So you pass the two new triangles to the display hardware, it draws "in the lines" and everything is cool.

So what's the problem with the Saturn?

The first problem is quads. When 1 point of 4 is off screen you will clip to the edge and get a 5 sided polygon. The saturn can't render that but you also can't trivially turn it into 2 quads. It's 1 quad and a tri, so you can either force another cut to get 6 points which you can render as two quads or you can try and render a degenerate quad where 2 points overlap. This gets compounded when multiple points go outside different edges of the screen, you get lots of degenerate quads to deal with.

Second problem is you aren't really rendering texture mapped quads, you are distorting sprites from a reasonably flexible sprite buffer. You don't really have UV coords, you've got tile offsets. So if your clipped points need a UV of (2,3) you can't actually translate that to a valid value. The easy fix is to just round to the nearest, this means the texture will appear to slide around the clipped area frame to frame.

>>4631950
As with all hardware limitations, they can be mitigated somewhat. All games will exhibit this flaw to some degree, but just as good PS1 programmers implemented dynamic tessellation to minimise affine mapping errors, good Saturn developers implemented clever polygons clipping to ensure that the UV coord errors were only contained in the smallest possible degenerate cases that should stay away from the action as much as possible.

>>4631956
>>4631950
the advantage of 3d was new ways to play games most people had not until then. Kinda like the wii and the new weird nintendo handheld I cant remember the name of...

Overall, the amount of good games goes don't to the amount of games because making games gets harder with each generation. So less people can make games of that caliber and less care can taken care of gameplay because of all the other new additional factors...

Welcome to modern progress!

>>4632417
>Overall, the amount of good games goes DOWN to the amount of games

>>4628573
It's not the Quake engine. That's a modified Powerslave engine.

>>4629602
Saturn doesn't have support for texture coordinates. The way it's calculated results in rounding errors and that's why the coordinates always seem to swim.

>>4632635
The way the hardware outputs pixels you need to feed it integers and it's always resulting in rounding errors. These consoles were designed for pixel graphics in mind, not 3d.

>>4632639
You can't fix it with code because it's hardware level feature.
The way NES worked it that it had all these pre-progr

>>4632417
>because making games gets harder with each generation

especially with APIs being standardized. and having ready complete game engines with ready asset editors

>>4632425
reading comprehension

>>4631950
noice

>>4632417
Ammount of good games is the same today.
The technical aspect of the gamemaking eased up a lot, so we get a lot of low-effort shit, and the corporations fell into the trap of safe reiteration. However all other aspects of gamemaking like design, sound etc. remained mostly the same, so while ammount of shit increased, ammount of good stuff did not, but now you have to search a bit harder to find the good stuff.

>>4632646
I am sorry dude, but superprobotector is on an equal level like witcher3 for me. People just don't make superprobotectors anymore. Undertale, risk of rain all games I would not recommend less than witcher3.
TripleA games are easier for marketing. But the amount of work to quality ratio never can keep up if you ask me.
As I said the only feature of new tech is that it spawns new ways to play games. But devs run into a dead end, by raising graphics instead of staying at a comfortable level and instead making the gameplay better.