/vr/ - Retro Games

Mighty undead hammerite > filthy mechanist peasents

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22ssSgNj-OY

Start playing fan missions

>>4628164
Which should I play today?

is thief a horror game?

>>4628220
Thief is a better horror game than actual horror games.

TFix changes the models. If you want the old models, you need to remove mesh.crf from the PATCHES folder.

>>4628745
I don't even have a mesh.crf in PATCHES but I still have the new models. I assume you mean the different guard versions? This is with TFix lite.

>>4628778
And for that matter I still have a problem with Lite and cutscenes. It seems that they'll work, but only if I don't have any FMs installed and if I comment out the fm line in cam_mod.ini (FM cutscenes naturally don't work at all).

>>4628778
>I assume you mean the different guard versions?
yes

>>4628275
Which is weird because in horror games you are a powerless weakling and your opposition always has an advantage over you. They know where you are and you don't know where they are. In Thief it's always the other way around.

>>4627628
Just finished deadly shadows and outside of the levels being a step down I kinda liked it. Climbing was nice, though I prefer rope and vine arrows.
>>4629728
One of the best horror games ever was Eternal Darkness because it had an amazing combat system and it's a shame bigger studios never ripped it off. I love the horror elements in thief. >>4628275
Shalebridge Cradle is a horrifying level.

What are your favorite music pieces from the franchise?
Although there are many memorable songs, I really like the music being played during the briefing to "Return to the Cathedral" mission:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLQLn8JVKeU

>>4630171
PUFFY.WAV

>>4630202
I agree, it's a really memorable jingle:
https://youtu.be/XaF4ssH05pM?t=2m44s

>>4629739
Best horror game is Call of Chtulul

>>4630171
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVK85rWhLDI&t=0s&index=6&list=PLE40827B90F4DED7B

>>4630271
Which one, Dark Corners of the Earth?

>>4629713
Any idea how to get them in lieu of a mesh.crf to remove?

>>4630289
yes

>>4628275

>>4630367
Thought it was a spider web at first.

>>4630372
i wish it was...

>>4630367
>>4630386
Um, sweetie, I think your UI is broken

>>4630395
I used the latest version tho..

>>4630395
It's not broken. That's how it's supposed to be.

>>4630397
>>4630386
>>4630367

are there any other missions like broadsword of sheol or brainchild? the only one I can think of that is somewhat similar is shadows of eidolon

>>4630494
I don't rly know.
By the way, have you people played any seasonal maps? When it comes to christmas i know United Bank of Auldale, HAPPY NEW YEAR MISTER LAMBERT!, A Winter Holiday and A Thief's Holiday 2004

>>4630494
What do you like about these particular FMs?

>>4630553
the tense and oppressive atmosphere, the feeling of being lost and isolated. They are pretty much the only type of fm I actually find scary

>>4630553
Grand scale but claustrophobic at the same time.

Is it even possible to ghost Thief Gold without doing any cheesy stuff? I'm halfway through the Thieves Guild mission and so far it has enjoyable, will it get autistically difficult later on?

>>4631494
good luck ghosting the fire elementals

>>4630365
Agree for first two hours. After that it becomes a mediocre shooter with good atmosphere.

>>4631494
Thieves Guild itself is already impossible to ghost because of the chef and the guy guarding the key. But fortunately there isn't that kind of bullshit in Mages Towers or Song of The Caverns. It's the vanilla missions that are going to be a pain in your ass.

>>4628024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8da7qkbDOY

is there anything more anti-fun than ghosting?

>>4632086
switch hunts in dark rooms.
backtracking through the entire level so you can repeat the switch hunt from the first rooms when you get stuck.
repeating said procedure for hours, while ghosting.

>>4632086
Well for example running through the entire level blackjacking every guard in advance so you can freely explore the entire level with zero challenge or excitement. It's especially bad if you do that the first time playing that mission, so your initial blind exploration is permanently ruined by your refusal to do it on the terms of stealth gameplay.

>>4632001
Magnficent.

>>4632130
Do you mean blackjacking opponents like the game was designed to so you can play comfy and discover every aspect of the level the designer put for players enjoyment? I love it.
Ghosting is on the speedrun level of retardation.

>>4632130
And one more thing, if FM has no blackjack, its all fine by me, because i know it was designed that way.

>>4632370
I think entirely bypassing the stealth aspect of a stealth game makes you miss the point of all those different areas of the level you're exploring, which were all designed first and foremost to be compatible with stealth gameplay. Kinda like playing Half-Life with the AI disabled so you don't have to do any of the combat that the levels were designed for. You just want to explore everything.

>>4632379
which does not happen. You need to go stealthy to avoid other enemies. You cant take them all out at once, so you sneak around. And remember thief 2 have enemies that blackjack does not work on. Thats what you use to balance stuff out when you're a map creator.

>>4632451
This
It's a matter of level design and not game mechanics. The blackjack is not a cheat and the developers intended players to use it.

>>4632470
Nobody was saying that using the blackjack is a cheat. The weapon exists because of the expert difficulty killing restriction. The argument was regarding which is more boring, going out of your way to avoid violence while also avoiding detection, or going out of your way to knock out everyone* so you can explore without anyone getting in your way. My argument is that the former leaves room for exploration without diminishing the stealth gameplay, whereas the latter leaves only the element of exploration and entirely eliminates stealth gameplay.
*running behind unaware enemies to blackjack them, forward-lean-blackjacking aware enemies while standing in the dark, or strafing behind attacking enemies in the dark to knock them out, all with little to no regard for any stealth whatsoever just so that you can have an empty level with no opposition

>>4631635
I disagree, athough giving you a gun makes it less frighting, there is a few times when you still feel alone, unsafe (not to mention that creepy 3rd person visony thing).

u r a taffer

>>4630367
I was prompted by your postings to play that mission. Goddamn it was weird and spooky as shit.
So are you supposed to be a robot and that's why it's so difficult to swim?

>>4627634
Can someone post the reversed version of this, where nuGarrett is the Virgin and old Garrett the Chad? I can't seem to find it

>>4633240
I got you, taffer

>>4632583
>Nobody was saying that using the blackjack is a cheat.
>Kinda like playing Half-Life with the AI disabled so you don't have to do any of the combat that the levels were designed for.

>>4633313
I think this might be the same weirdo who thinks that Garrett canonically wasn't detected by Karras in Soulforge because you're meant to assume he ghosts it.

>>4633248
Thanks mate

>>4627628
Deku Tree, is it thou?

>>4632583
Okay but "using the blackjack" != "using every trick possible to get an advantage on the AI and reduce the level of challenge to miniscule" and I think you know that.

>>4633313
>>4633561
Why is it so hard to understand that the discussion is comparing two gimmick playstyles and not universally criticizing the use of the blackjack? Are Sandman players so defensive that they can't help but think that all discussion related to the blackjack is a personal attack against them?
>>4633240
>>4633248
But that version is by chads for chads. People who actually think you're supposed to unironically root for the chad and praise its objectively superior qualities when the original meme is obviously not about that.

>>4632130
Then why is this tactic almost always required to beat any of the Fanmissions?

>>4632583
>The weapon exists because of the expert difficulty killing restriction.

It doesn't. That is by far not just why the weapon is in the game. First off, the Blackjack exists on the lower difficulties and has a utility that the sword doesn't: It incapacitates mortal enemies without making as much noise as killing them with a sword.

Also, most of the tactics you named like lean-forward blackjacking are entirely legitimate. Why else would they put the lean forward function into the game anyway? And wouldn't it make sense if in real life, a guard investigating some deep shadows getting unexpectedly bashed in the face by a blackjack would be knocked out cold the same as one who gets it in the back of the head? Those are just common sense, no-stupid-video-game-logic things you can do in the game.

My guess is that most people used the Blackjack fairly often, but not to excess. Imagine if you're playing this game for the first time in the 90s / early 00s, you'd rather avoid and sneak by some enemies instead of risking being detected and fucking up a blackjack attempt.

Now cue to our times where people would rather just savescum through every encounter while ghosting, or just savescum when they fuck up and get detected. Boring. It's a lack of self-discipline and a saving mechanic that is all too inviting to forego any discipline that breaks the game.

>>4634025
You don't need to Blackjack everyone right away you can just blackjack enough guards around particular room you want to loot, dump them in the shadows and then advance to other one, its better to play that way.

I know this is the wrong thread, but the general Looking Glass thread died and this is the most appropriate one since LGS and all
Anyone know why the fuck System Shock 1 looks like this when running at 640x400 or over on Windows 98 DOS mode?

>>4634028
>Why else would they put the lean forward function into the game anyway?
For the reason why people lean forward in real life. To look down from ledges. LGS designed games based on systems built upon sensible real world phenomena that would be useful in gameplay. Thief AI has short-range detection in pitch black darkness that lets them spot the player right in front of them, but it needs the body collider. The head collider is not enough to trigger it. It was deliberately designed to be less detectable because of the leaning beyond corners mechanic where you're supposed to expose less of your body. Players discovered that you could offset the head collider only and extend attack distance beyond the point-blank forward detection of AIs in total darkness and knock out NPCs from the front even when standing right in front of them. None of the literal functioning of this method makes real world sense. It's an exploit. Leaning forward was meant for offsetting your head to see beyond the location of where you're standing. Thief 2 introduced the door eavesdropping mechanic but it's meant more for sideways leaning even though it works with forward leaning too. Imagine what that looks like. Garrett leaning his forehead into a door to hear what's going on on the other side.
>>4634028
>you'd rather avoid and sneak by some enemies instead of risking being detected and fucking up a blackjack attempt.
Yes. This is the standard gameplay of most players. It's expected that most people do this. It is decidedly not a blackjacking spree to empty the level for free exploration.
>>4634028
>our times where people would rather just savescum through every encounter while ghosting
Yeah that is bullshit. If you insist on doing something whose odds of success are so low that you need to be able to constantly restart, you might as well just be cheating.

>>4634093
I disagree. I don't think it matters greatly whether you get hit in the head from in front or behind when you're tentatively searching a pitch black area for a potential intruder.

Think about this: You're still hitting someone *in the head* with a blunt instrument designed to incapacitate somone. They don't know where you're at and that's what makes it all the more of a shock when you suddenly get hit.

On the contrary, how guards react when you hit them with a blackjack in open combat doesn't really make sense either. They just taunt you and act as if you're hitting them with one of those stress-relief bats they have at couple's therapy. Hitting someone with a lead-shot filled leather instrument still causes serious damage, especially if you repeatedly hit them.


And my bottom line is this: Forward-lean-blackjacking is NOT a problem. This isn't what turns the stealth mechanics up on its head. What subverts it is to play without accepting consequences and savescumming. Just look at Thief 2. In that game a slew of things were added and improved that make the game way easier than before, such as an increased health bar, invisibility potions, camera eyes, slow-fall potions, and a reduction of enemies that have special incapacitation requirements like undead. Yet the core STEALTH gameplay isn't all that affected by those changes, even though it's made considerably easier.

>>4627634
FPBP

>>4636280
why didn't constantine just pay garrett and send him off? I realise they needed a human eye, but it shouldn't matter who it comes from. the readables in his mansion suggests that constantine can create gold, so he should be able to offer literally anyone in the city a ridiculously high sum of money for an eye.

attacking garrett was what caused constantine's downfall. had he handled it with more restraint and secrecy, he would have gotten away with it and succeeded with his plan.

>>4633921
I know it's somewhat against the spirit of the meme but "has to wear tap shoes to have any kind of challenge" is fucking funny

>>4629728
Something that TDP does very well is creating horror through its sense of scale and how the dangers you face evolve constantly. Even when your enemies' capabilities are unnatural, you can always find a way to deal with them, through stealth or by using your tools. The situations you're put in, though, makes it harder and harder to do so with the same efficiency. As things get spookier the player is asked to keep up the pace, I find it quite effective.

>>4636919
>attacking garrett was what caused constantine's downfall
It's not even that. They could've just taken Garrett's eye, killed him and then fucked off. Maybe he was the only real contact that Constantine had since he "kept to himself" (cause he didn't want to be found out). It's not like they needed Garrett for anything else.

Currently playing Thief Gold. and holy shit this game is fun. Just finished the cathedral? abandoned town and so far it was my favorite level.

Now I'm at some mage towers, too many guards and floors make it a bit confusing. But It's alright I guess, the earth tower was nice.

>My playstyle;
Knock everyone in the head and hide them at a dark corner, then jump around and steal everything. lol

Any advice for someone just starting the Their games? Necessary mods, advice, things like that?

The Sword of Drakul
Is this the beginning of the keyhunt? The lockpick can't be used most of the times. Besides starting off the mission with one lockpick, it also takes away your sword. How can you defend yourself? Especially when you piss off Vlademer. There is so much marble and the maximum amount of moss arrows you can get is four. While turtling is a useful technique, it shouldn't be mandatory to use it often.
Newmantling seems to break one puzzle, as the intention was to stack boxes to reach a certain chest. I saw the floating walking body glitch again, as seen before in Shadow of Lord Rothchest.
One thing I liked, is that the briefing mentions a couple of goals that aren't mentioned ingame: destroying many undead creatures and the hideous remains of poor Andrea. A decision up to the player without real consequence, other than conscience.

>>4637294
the game's amazing.
What difficulty you playing?

>>4637626
I'm a pussy and I play on normal :-/

>>4637294
>Knock everyone in the head and hide them at a dark corner, then jump around and steal everything. lol
Ah, a fellow taffer of taste, I see.

>>4637626
>>4638442
I actually like to sometimes boot up Normal and do a genocide run where I try to just massacre everyone like I'm Doomguy. I usually don't get very far...

>>4627634
keks

>>4638648
human form victoria was such a qt. I wish we had seen more of her.

what the fuck? did they seriously lock garrett into the office after freeing him?

>>4639484
Why didn't they carry him off with them? If they wanted to help him they should have gotten him out of there.

On Expert I think Garrett wants to look for info on what Constantine's up to, so maybe they thought he had work to do there. Still, could have spared him some healing potions. Maybe the prophecy demanded they couldn't help too much...

>>4640005
exactly, their guild doesn't want to change the balance of power, only see if anything goes wrong. its interesting from the thiefs guild how the prophecies always turn out true

>>4636919
>>4637293
I dunno why they didn't take it from one of the guards who they clearly transfigured into ape beasts anyway.

Which do you prefer?

>>4640392
>the guards who they clearly transfigured into ape beasts
I always assumed it was the other way around; that the ape beasts had assumed human form, like vic and constantine.

remember: there's nothing in TDP that suggests that ape beasts are stupid. they talk funny, but so do vic and constantine show their true forms.

>>4640826
Possible, but in-game text for The Sword seems to suggest otherwise. Constantine's notes about people falling victim to his private sanctum in the little big world seem like the biggest indicator, especially since the skeleton caught in the mouse trap is clearly a human one.

Is anyone else fascinated by all these texts?

I would unironically join this religion.

>>4641205
I would so I didn't have to worry about being subjected to righteous punishment.

>>4641205

The cutscenes add so much to the story/lore. I like the hammers for some reason, pagans are cool to.

>>4641205
definitely makes everything more memorable.
Even if they're basically out of context sentences

"Builds your
roofs of dead
wood.

Builds your
walls of
dead stone.

Builds your
dreams of
dead thoughts.

Comes
crying laughing
singing back to
life, takes what
you steal,

and pulls the
skins from
your dead
bones
shrieking."

>>4641218
Deadly Shadows was admittedly still pretty good for this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxsgNX9eErU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNWNSfwKNoA

>>4641205
I feel sorry for the Hammerites because their life lessons are mostly good and their goals, to literally build a better world, are righteous, but just like the big irl religions, they attribute all their grand accomplishments on their god and thus refuse to reward themselves for their hard work, and attribute all their failures on themselves and insist on being punished for them.

>>4637517
We've been through more frustrating experiences before, but this is quite the literal keyhunt. No exploration needed, go there, find out what to do next, go there and do it. Still, I don't dislike this line of thinking, when it's not exaggerated. Some sort of distant graphic adventure relative. I find it fascinating when it's well balanced, between a straighforward mission like this one and the dispersive kind.
At least this one was clear about what we had to find, and everything made enough sense: the captain hid the key in the tomb, and the key for the tomb is secured in his room. Every key is named, which is pretty nice. The only part that's not clear is where to find the second lockpick: a journal tells you about that place, the player can choose to investigate, but it doesn't sound interesting enough to be a priority. It's weird, since those guards stopped another taffer before Garrett, it could have been a good hook to write somewhere that they got his equipment, thus giving the player a reason to look for it.
I liked the crate part, it requires an investigation in the area you're in, a quick logical connection that isn't simply looking for a key to go forward. Sure, that particular key seemed out of place up there, but at least it was immediately clear that I needed to get there, as opposed to the second lockpick.
I agree on the turtling issue. It would have been better if the mission gave the player a few more options to choose from, especially with items (be it at the start of the mission or in the manor). I'm ok with playing non-offensively but it can be more interesting than this.
At the cost of appearing rough, the use of elements placed in unusual places made the manor quite original, surely different from most of the manors we've explored so far. They suffer from a samey look that is hard to avoid. For this one the author made a bold choice.
Zombies killed by the sword, even if not destroyed, don't get up. Interesting item.

>>4630171
The pacing and atmosphere of this level captivated me my first playthrough
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmYCyW1iKgI&index=13&list=PLE40827B90F4DED7B&t=0s

lel

I don't like the music in T2, to be honest. it feels like they moved away from the ambient industrial themes in favour of more orchestral stuff. which is ironic, since the world in T2 is supposed to be more industrial than that of T1

>>4641920
That's why Framed has the best ost in T2.

You're right about the orchestral stuff. Even if I do love the music for First City Bank and Trust.

speaking of music, does anyone know what exactly influenced the music for thief?

I remembered how much Fallout 1 and 2's OST aped Aphex Twin, so now I'm curious about other game soundtracks from around the same time.

>>4642014
For the beat oriented tracks, DJ Shadow was a stated influence. E.g. the main theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXl6D4oYIeg
In their interview with that MIT guy, Dan Thron and Terri Brosius said that David Lynch was a significant influence on the cutscenes, it wouldn't surprise me if Eraserhead's soundtrack was also a point of reference for the ambient sounds.

Are the Keepers based on any actual historic secret society or order?

>>4642040
The Bookhouse Boys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s60DKLo0tKY

>>4642014
Search for dark ambient or drone music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nvMim7X7tg

>>4642070
I was talking more along the lines of taking influences from specific artists/composers or suspiciously similar songs, not really talking about genres in general.

kind of like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsdMcNGf-hQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKyD6n2DHPU

>>4642075
Not music, but I know they got some inspiration from The Name of the Rose:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC9EG9Vh9CA

>>4642119
Damn, that's cool.
I'm getting some serious Keepers/Bonehoard vibes off this.
honestly, kind of reminds of those rounded rooms in Bafford's manor, that are raised by stairs, too.

Go play TDM.

>>4642040
The Illuminati

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrIhMlPbhqk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXl6D4oYIeg

I'm trying to remember a Hammerite verse. It's about a man begging for food, but only receiving a hammer and a chisel. At the end his hands are broken. How does the verse go and where is it from?

>>4643425
"The stone cannot know why the chisel cleaves it; the iron cannot know why the
fire scorches it. When thy life is cleft and scorched, when death and despair
leap at thee, beat not thy breast and curse thy evil fate, but thank the
Builder for the trials that shape thee."
-- The Hammer Book of Tenets


>>4641205

>>4643501
No, it was something else.

>>4642040
I'd say they're based on a hodgepodge of things, but the most striking resemblance they have is the Guardians in Plato's Republic.

> obsession with balance (stoicism)
> they lead the City (polis) with the interest of the City flourishing rather than just accruing more wealth (balance)

while the Guardian's aren't a secret society, and they're more of a collective, they have the same aim and the Keeper is a synonym of Guardian.

>>4641205
When we were kids, my friends and I would unironically quote a lot of the stuff from the briefings.

Good writing goes a long way, but sadly simple writing is more engaging for first time players and casual gamers.

Do people just find Soulforge's titanic size daunting? Because after I played it the first time, I didn't really understand the hate the level gets.
There's a reason it's the final mission in the game, it's supposed to be big and difficult.

>>4643764
Honestly I liked soulforge and thought it was a pretty good way to send the game off. Although, I had just come from playing SS2, so I was probably just happy that the game ended reasonably well without going horribly off the rails.
I feel like the ending level is usually not the high point of any game, at least not for the kind of games I like.

>>4643929
jeez, I know I can tell you that I liked Soulforge more than I like Body of the Many.

I love these games but my terrible sense of direction makes playing them such a pain in the ass.

>>4643959
use the compass

>>4643929
I adore sabotage at soulforge. Not only do I think it's a climactic challenge gameplay-wise and a dramatic finale for the story, but I'm so happy for all the Karras content we get. He's my favourite character from the series.

what's the sound file for the music that plays in the keeper library?
https://youtu.be/QL_Le3qZX0k?t=455

>>4643990
>>4643929
every time I see people talking about soulforge, they're complaining about
>the size and "convoluted" design
>the boring visual design
>the music (since it's unwavering throughout the entire level and reuses the music from Precious Cargo)
>it's a "fetch quest"
>too many bots
>not very exciting

>>4644021
protip: open that shit in dromed and look for it.
m07organ is the schema

>>4644028
I'll give it to them that the visual design is a bit dull. I get what they were going for with a bland, function-over-form factory layout, but it certainly isn't the prettiest level out of 1+2.

>>4643929
>>4643990
>>4644028
I like it more than the maw from 1.

>>4644364
Soulforge is the best final mission in the series. Thief 1 has a linear hallway, and Thief 3 has a reverse fetch-quest that takes place in the hub between missions that you've been through countless times already. But Thief 2 has a non-linear Thief-style level with multiple stages and objectives.

>>4643764
it's not the size or difficulty of it, just the fact that it's so fucking tedious to play. It's thieves guild squared

>>4643764
>>4644407
But that isn't true in the slightest. Everything is marked out and in plain sight for you to navigate.

You go to the planning bureau, get all the design documents for tools and weapons you need, as well as the signal beacon, and then you spend the first half of the mission building up equipment.

Since the map is very concise and lays out the machines neatly from A-E, you should have 0 problems navigating from point to point to build your mines, camera eyes, signal beacons and the like.

From there on out you go to the Northern Apsis, put the signal beacon in, and flick switches in the beacon towers. You take a look on the map, navigate to the most opportune tower you can find, sneak past the protection and activate the tower to signal B.

If you have ANY navigational skills and use the map, this level is easy to navigate. Thieves Guild on the other hand has no useful map that helps you along a lucidly designed machine assembly plant, because it's a serious of confusing as fuck sewers, houses and underground living quarters.

I honestly get the feeling that whenever people whine about Soulforge they're a bunch of underage plebeians who never used the map function before.

>>4644302
The level really could do with some prettier assets such as some radiant teal for robot fluids coming through translucent pipes and shit, or some other vibrant design, but my guess is that the sheer size of the level had to be compensated with lack of visually stimulating assets.

>>4644391
I whole-heartedly agree. Soulforge feels like a test to the shit of your sneaking abilites. Into the Maw of Chaos was the level I beat the quickest when I was a kid, which is not a compliment. Most levels took me like 8 hours at least to beat, first because of spoop and second because navigation and puzzle solving was also a problem. Soulforge felt much more like a final challenge of all your endurance, wit and sneaking ability.

>>4644427
The dullness in its visual impacts directly on the gameplay. I will concede that it never gets as bad as thieves guild, but most of the factory is composed of featureless corridors and huge empty rooms that make navigation more difficult than it needs to be even with a detailed map.

Sneaking is just not fun. Huge rooms with shoddy lighting (that's not only ugly but probably also bugged since I could be seen in places where lightgem was dark) and tons of robots and cameras don't make for very interesting gameplay. The cameras are way overused too; in order to sneak past them you have to move through the huge ass level at a glacial pace (and the objectives force you to backtrack constantly) and every time you get caught, groups of robots get spawned in at high alert levels, making stealth even more frustrating.

In addition to finding you way through an oversized, ugly level and trying to sneak past an army of robots, you are expected to be constantly backtracking in order to complete one of the main objectives. The mission overstay its welcome really fucking fast and I stopped taking it seriously after the first hour, not giving a shit if I tripped any alarms and abusing bots ai to have them blow themselves up against walls. And it is a fetch quest mission like return to the cathedral, except the latter is just so much better in every way.

>I whole-heartedly agree. Soulforge feels like a test to the shit of your sneaking abilites...
>it's LONG so it must be GUD
Soulforge is a boring, aimless and unfinished mess of a map that is only a test to the player's patience. Maw was not great but I'd take that level over soulforge any fucking day.

>>4644492
>you are expected to be constantly backtracking in order to complete one of the main objectives.
What the hell are you talking about? That describes Return to The Cathedral and the Murus bullshit, not Sabotage at Soulforge. What part of that mission "expects you to constantly backtrack"?

>>4641205
The hammers are pretty much catholic monks.

>>4644514
assembling the beacon

>>4644514
you're only required to explore each area once in RttC. the only place you keep coming back to is the central "hub" where murus is.

>>4627628
I started playing this game for the first time not too long ago. I am in the mission I gotta steal a dude's vase and get at least 1000 loot, but I am stuck in a shitty sewer and I can't find the thing to open the 47 door thing

>>4644492
>you are expected to be constantly backtracking in order to complete one of the main objectives.

Either you're navigating it like a retard or you don't know what backtracking means.Backtracking is when you have to walk all the way to the beginning of a linear level in order to do something that advances you at the end of the level. If you're not retarded you will do the following: Go to the planning bureau, get the signal beacon documents, and having plundered all the storages along the way, you make your way ONCE to all the relevant machines to assemble the quest item, insert it into the beacon receptacle and move on.

No backtracking involved. If you did that, you would have to call finding a key/switch for a door in Tomb Raider backtracking too, which it isn't. That's called puzzle solving.

By comparison, Thieves Guild may end you up having to ACTUALLY backtrack. If you end up inside the mansion with the vase first, but don't have the key, (because that level has ACTUAL bullshit convoluted level design), then you'll have to backtrack ALL the way back and get the key.

> it's LONG so it must be GUD

That is not what I said and you know, you strawmanning underage dingbat. I said that the level takes everything you learned in the game and cranks up the difficulty and scale to the maximum, making it a true test of what you learned in the game. Making it a final challenge. By comparison the Maw is just like a level ripped out of a walking simulator: Interesting visuals, zero challenge and extremely short.

> IT'S SHORT SO ITS BETTER LELELEL

That's what you act like.

>>4644572
>Either you're navigating it like a retard or you don't know what backtracking means.Backtracking is when you have to walk all the way to the beginning of a linear level in order to do something that advances you at the end of the level. If you're not retarded you will do the following: Go to the planning bureau, get the signal beacon documents, and having plundered all the storages along the way, you make your way ONCE to all the relevant machines to assemble the quest item, insert it into the beacon receptacle and move on.

One of the machines you need is literally in the starting area so by your own fucking definition you are backtracking

>>4644543
isn't that the case with soulforge? I don't remember having to go into any factory room more than once

>>4632593
Not gonna lie, the moment with the child made my jaw hang open because I didn't think you could do that in a game.

>>4644540
When you're taking stuff from point A and then taking that stuff to point B any route you wish, then C, then D etc. -how is that backtracking? Better yet, how is that constant backtracking? If I didn't know better I'd say that you're a Thi4f player who can't stand the idea of a level not being a strictly linear single passage filled with points of no return, since apparently visiting the same room twice to use two different machines is too much for you. You want cockrings? Well the Regulating Round you manufacture in Factory Bay D might be too big for you.

>>4644715
you are fucking retard

>>4644715
>accusing others of liking thiaf/cock rings
>after shitting on RttC
you're from /v/, aren't you?

What did the developers themselves have to say about Maw of Chaos and Soulforge?

>>4643425
http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/St._Edgar%27s_Eve:_In-game_text#HIforge1

>>4644892
Yes, that's the one.

>>4644776
I'm sure they probably acknowledged at some point that Maw was clearly designed to be a cool series of set pieces rather than a true final level.

>>4644726
No, you are a retard if you think that the design of Soulforge is fundamentally based on constant backtracking. It isn't. The entire mission is completely non-linear and most of the objectives can be completed in any order. I'd be very impressed if you could manage to actually argue against this. Especially considering that you seem to be retarded. "you are fucking retard" is what someone with mental deficiencies would type.
>>4644757
I didn't shit on RttC. Someone described Soulforge as constant backtracking when it isn't, and I pointed out that the description fits much better with RttC where Murus gives you fetch quests. That's the mission where you are being told to get a thing and then return to a place, then repeat that several times.

>>4645393
if you're suggesting that returning to a hub counts as backtracking, then I don't know what to say.

>>4645393
>I better point out that typo he made, that'll sure show him!

>>4645439
...Okay now it's official that you actually have no idea what you're talking about or what I'm talking about. I am precisely the person who is not defining something as backtracking in this discussion. I'm arguing against someone who is. Returning to Murus for another fetch quest is more like backtracking than zigzagging all across a level from one place to the next. In fact the latter cannot possibly count as that. Which is my entire point.
>>4645470
You do realize that when someone is acting like a moron it doesn't help their case if they also sound like one? Also it only counts as argumentum ad muh typos if you dismiss someone solely based on grammatical errors without any other justification. Your inability to reason and certain other coincidences lead me to believe that...
samefag:
>>4644726
>>4644757
&
>>4645439
>>4645470

>>4644583

It seems that you don't know what actual backtracking is if you call that backtracking. The way from the bureau to machine A takes less than 2 minutes to walk to, and you're moving to all the different assembly machines anyway so you're not really backtracking.

I really feel you should play a game like Metroid or the newer Castlevania games, where it's basically a backtrack fest of gaining an item at thend of one area and then going all the way back to the beginning to do something there and progress back somewhere else. Going past machine A to the bureau, then going to machines D, C and A, and then fucking off into the northern Apsis and progressing through different beacon towers is not backtracking. It simply isn't. You are just attaching a negative term to something that it isn't, and you really sound like someone who never had to play a game that actually tosses backtracking bullshit at you.

/v/eddit was a mistake

>>4636280
Does anyone have a list of the cut enemies?

>>4646324
There aren't really all that many of them. There's the serpent demon which is a humanoid snake with mantis-like pincer arms. You can see their heads hung on various walls. That grey thing with the four x-files flukeman teeth.
Then I don't know if it's an enemy per se, but one of the cut creatures was a mammalian eel, basically a really long-bodied water rodent, like an otter. A snake with buck teeth. You can decide for yourself whether that's creepy or adorable.
Then there's the spider demon, a female humanoid with shiny black skin that has red markings like a black widow, arms and legs with three digits, additional two sets of arms bringing the total number of limbs to 8, and a third eye in the middle of the face. The spider demon was eventually changed to the red spider beast, which uses the web and magic attacks that were originally designed for the humanoid demon. A version of the demon's body texture is used in some of the final spider creatures, complete with arm and leg textures of the humanoid form.
And the naked horrifying bug demon lady was visually redesigned to the bugbeast, and the two-headed ogre was cut entirely.

What I want to know is whether that original concept painting of the crayman still exists. The one that was never scanned into digital form to be uploaded, but only existed on paper on one of the walls of Looking Glass studios. You can see it on the documentary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5TMB4JVCOw

>>4646474
just a diligent brother keeping the dark spirits at bay

If zombies are trickster magic
and the trickster is dead
why are there still zombies?

>>4648003
Zombies aren't Trickster magic. Pagans detest necromancy.

>>4648003
Pagans are about the living things, not the dead things. Remember, The Eye is not a pagan artifact, but a keeper one. The Trickster didn't use it to destroy the Old Quarter, The Eye did that by itself. The Trickster in his research had simply found a way to incapacitate The Eye in order to forcefully extract its power.

>>4648618
>The Eye is not a pagan artifact, but a keeper one
[citation needed]

>>4648772
Deadly Shadows.

>>4648618
>>4648772
>>4648789
Convoluted and difficult to determine at best.

http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/The_Eye

http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Sentients

There is no clear origin for The Eye but it's highly likely that the Trickster was involved with it, as it does at one point refer to the trickster as 'master'.

https://youtu.be/_33NoJHE00A

T3 is clearly retconning part of T1, since the smith-in-exile's opinion seems to change, and I'm more inclined to go with the original idea from the better game. But it's up in the air, and there is no definite explanation.

>>4648978
>at one point refer to the trickster as 'master'.
It's an unused audio file for a reason. If the Eye had any allegiance to the Trickster, then the whole idea of Constantine having to use alchemy to incapacitate it makes no sense. Its only allegiance is to itself, and to the Failsafe. Whatever the Smith-in-Exile said is as you pointed out, an opinion. An uninformed opinion of a religious zealot, on an artifact whose entire history was deliberately erased by Gamall for her personal conspiracy. The glyphs are the most powerful magic in the world. More powerful than the Trickster, which is the reason why Constantine wanted to use The Eye. There's no doubt that it's a retcon by TDS, but it is a retcon by the original writers. I doubt LGS had planned for Gamall to be the antagonist, or for Caduca's translation in T2 "the brethren and betrayer" to refer to the little translator girl. I believe I heard in an interview that Ken Levine came up with Artemus' final words for TDP "beware the dawn of the Metal Age" and he said that it just sounded catchy and he had no idea what it means. Even Thief 2 is a retcon by that standard.

Too lazy to find a picture but in Garrett's apartment in Ambush! he has a couple of filled bookshelves. What do you think he reads?

>>4649023
Porn

>>4649023
-History of individuals and families to dig up dirt on targets and to find potential customers that would commission jobs against rivals
-History of famous precious treasures and how they changed hands throughout the years just in case they ended up in the possession of someone who it would be easy to steal from
-History of City architecture for important forgotten paths and weaknesses
-Scientific journals for maintenance and innovations in things that could help him in his job
-Other languages to help him investigate more things
-Various versions of one thing to cross-reference and find out the actual truth behind conflicting biased accounts

>>4649023
Maybe they're just for show.

>>4633225
I haven't thought about that. It's a very good point.

>>4630494
I've finished shadows of eidolon today. Pretty good. Short, but well executed.

>>4649038
How pretentious can you get?

>>4649023
they're probably old maps and ledgers

>>4649023
i would say he keeps the journals scrolls and books he finds along the way

>>4649213
Hopefully nothing incriminating. It would be embarrassing if he was found in the possession of Bafford's food shopping list signed by him or something.

>>4649023
probably mostly technical manuals. he doesn't seem like the /lit/ type.

>>4644564
Try swimming

>>4633248
It's amazing that people are insecure enough to make shit like this.

>>4649967
it's a meme you dip

>>4649967
Spoken like a true chad. Minus the elementary school level grammar mistakes and misspellings that is.

>>4633921
I though the whole point is that the virgin walk was its own discrete meme, while the chad stride was created to be as extremely and diametrically different as possible, to a humourous level

>>4637517
Speaking of almost forced turtling, what did you think of the hammer part of the Rose of Bantry? The church is well lit, you can't knock out the priest that faces the direction you're coming from and when you come back from the room with the hammer in it you can't use any item because you're carry the relic.
Like I may have said before, I don't mind when the player's liberty is taken away for a brief challenge: you can explore and sneak around, but can you do this specific task? The problem here is that the challenge seemed an incidental result of the mission's design choices.

>>4637517
I'd like to see keys used more, but it has to make sense contextually. a guard patrolling a locked section alone should always have the key there. if there's an entire team of guards there, the leader should have the key. the keys can be kept on their person, but also wherever they put their stuff, such as their barracks or offices.

key hunts should never be a menial task where you painstakingly search through every room. instead, the game should make you think like a thief. it should make you ask questions such as "which staff member is likely to have the key to this section?", and "if this staff member isn't present, who is he likely to entrust with the key?", etc.

many FMs already do this, but the problem is that they almost always have to ruin it by having readables explicitly tell you who has the key. and when there aren't readables to tell you about the locations of the keys. they tend to just be hidden in random locations, without mch thought to it.

>>4650572
That is exactly what it is. The virgin walk is an accurate though hyperbolized description that is mocking things that many low-fitness unconfident introverts can relate to. For better and for worse. Even if something is neutral or even positive you're supposed to say it's shit. The chad is the opposite, confidence and self-reliance extrapolated to its absurd extreme, to the point of absolute egocentric arrogance even at the expense of the entire environment around the individual, people included. And it's up to the viewer whether the chad is apathetic about his effect on his environment or oblivious to it due to being self-appointedly above all else. Most importantly you're supposed to describe as the absolute pinnacle of the human experience everything he does, even if it's absolutely retarded and/or destructive.

soo, back to Thief.
What was the longest FM you've encountered? I play the pretty new release (dec 2017) called, ironically A Short Night's Work, and I'm just pass 3h and it's still not over, expecting another 30 to 1h. Amazing fm by the way, scale of this map is just mind boggling.

>>4651153
Probably a part of Ruins of Originia before I resigned to using a guide.

>>4651153
no idea, but lord alan's factory is definitely in the top.

the size is simply breathtaking. granted, the author did "cheat" a bit by making segments that could as well have been small extremely large, but in the end, it did feel convincing. the architecture was also top tier, especially for the tower.

the use of the four digit ID numbers was also a genius move. it encouraged the player to actually stop and think about where a certain room or machine is, instead of just running around and searching everywhere.

>>4651153
The first time I played ominous bequest it took me almost 4 hours to complete. Also this >>4651167 particularly the first mission

I just finished Thief Gold for the first time, on Hard.
What a ride.
What an ending.

Now I've got Thief 2 to look forward to. I should also probably finish the second mission of Chalice of Souls as well, right?

>>4650896
nice to see someone gets it

>>4651261
Ominous bequest yeah, but it took me less than 3 hours to finish. I dont know what you did there for another hour.

zombie gibs are underrated

Started Thief 2 for the first time, is it supposed to look like this? I think Thief 1 was easier to navigate, and changing the gamma doesn't seem to change much.

Should I have installed the resource pack in tafferpatcher?

>>4652590
thief 2 is darker. they want to ecourage you to use the flares.

however, in that particular mission, I know for certain that changing the gamma DOES help.

>>4652595
okay the screenshot is darker than in game
But when I enter the door on the left, it's pitch black until I go left.

>>4652590
hm, i have gamma buttons set to + and - so i can quickly change it depending on situation. maybe you haven't changed gamma enough?
Or you just have it very bright in the room? I pref to play thief in the evening

>>4652247
>severed head bounces off his head
LIKE I GIVE A TAFF

>>4652247
>hit a zombie so hard it explodes
Is that Hammer actually doomguy?

>>4650612
At some point I'll decide to knock everyone out and/or make a run for it. Newdark seems to make the AI twitchier, or worse.
Did these FM authors in the early days know how to balance difficulty?

Boxes are such fickle things. Always have trouble positioning them.
>>4650624
As an encompassing question: can you logically deduce "x" from the facts you ought to encounter?

>>4643510
That's very interesting! thanks anon

Now this is happening in doors (Stop opening doors, indeed). It's like a portal, the other side is fine but then you can't see the hallway
How can I have a clear, nice, unfucked Thief 2? I just want to play

>>4653732
I have literally never had a problem with this game ever since it came out. With the singular exeption of the first cutscene's image freezing near the end, but that's a glitch that everyone had.

>>4653732
No idea, if you installed any mod/fix packs maybe try restarting the mission? Installing mods can bug out existing saves by duplicating some entities.
On another note, holy shit I forgot how bullshit Soulforge could be. Is it even possible to use the machine in factory E without being detected?
I got through it but I had to dodge cannonballs as I ran the fuck away, seems to be happening a lot on this level.

>>4652247
>doing an ironman run
>cragscleft
>zombie gibs hit me so hard I die

>>4653435
>Did these FM authors in the early days know how to balance difficulty?
More or less. We've seem them overdoing specific parts of their missions (tiles everywhere, small spaces filled with guards, big empty spaces), but luckily we have yet to find an almost unplayable FM - nothing that just rushing through certain parts doesn't solve. For now, it's like the personal touch of some of the early authors strays from the conventional path. In the rough way and not the innovative one yet, but there's time for that.

>>4653732
Hmm, what os you have? where you have thief 2 from?
With my gog version i install the game first, then go TafferPatcher_TMA_218_beta.exe
then go Thief2SoundFXEnhancement.exe
few setups in cam_ext.cfg like increasing fov, disabling vsync and setting fps limit to my refreshing rate + phys_freq 60

works like a dream on win 7

>>4654660
oh and i forgot, install it like picrel

>>4654660
>>4654661
If still the same shit, try changing
use_d3d_display to
;use_d3d_display
in cam_ext.cfg
this changes directx, not sure if can fix graphic glitches, but surely incraeses fps by ALOT on toasters

>>4654661
>Complete resource fix pack
What does this do?

>>4654660
Use Linux and WINE.

>feel like playing thief
>remember my monitor is glossy and can't see jack shit even in a dark room

>>4655018
CRTs are glossy as hell but I can always play Thief on mine in a dark room

>>4655057
well see with mine, the corners of the monitor show up as being really light in a dark room. makes it hard to play sometimes.

>>4654660
>>4654661
It works now, thank you very much!

Still have to get used to how dark the doors get, but nothing's glitching anymore

>>4655004
i'll be honest i have no idea, i think its also not mandatory. The bare minimum is patch 1.18, 1.25 and if you plan to play FMs, which you should, common scripts for fms

>>4655096
how dark? black still?
If you still have the time and power, try to install tafferpatcher without that resource fix pack. Maybe that is actually the problem

>>4655172
no, not black. They're just way darker than I remember in Thief 1, you can barely see them inside doorways until you're close enough to frob them if they're closed.
I've tried all the tafferpatcher combinations

>[blackjacks sleeping man]

>>4655324
and tosses him into the canal

>>4655326
I guess he's... sleeping with the fishes now

I gave up of this game on that Haunted Cathedral map, I couldn't find the keys and kept walking in circle

>>4655326

Help me /vr/ I can't get out from this Bonehoard chamber. My rope arrows don't seem to work

>>4656368
Are you sure you aren't accidentally using broadheads? Has happened to me multiple times.

>>4656368
Rope arrows are definitely the way out. In case you don't know, they bind to the 8 key by default and can only stick into soft surfaces like dirt and wood.

>>4656768
>>4657158
The rope is already hanging from the ceiling I just can't climb it. I took the gold from the face in the wall, maybe it has something to do with that?

>>4657169
How do you attach to ladders? Touch or jump?

>>4657173
There's an option in the game settings to choose, I think default is jump

>>4657208
I know, but maybe the trouble lies there?

>>4657208
I know, but maybe the trouble lies there?
What is it with the word 'you' that confuses people? I've experienced many times there's confusion between 'you' as in people in general and 'you' as in the addressed individual. What am I doing wrong?

>>4657173
Jump.

>>4657226
>What is it with the word 'you' that confuses people? I've experienced many times there's confusion between 'you' as in people in general and 'you' as in the addressed individual. What am I doing wrong?

If you want to be really explicit about it say "How does one..." instead of "How do you..."

E.g., How does one run Daggerfall in DOSBOX?

(Don't answer that, it's just an example)

>>4657158
Are you jumping into the rope? sometimes if the rope is too close to a wall it can get a bit difficult.

>>4657226
non-english language differentiate the two yous

t. croat

>>4657629
...and " t. [insert name here] " is a Finnish thing that this board has inexplicably adopted

>>4657629
I'm not a native speaker. Perhaps the lack of intonation doesn't help too.

So what are you people doing for the Thief: The Dark Project 20th Anniversary Contest?

>AAAAAAAAAHHHH THEY AIIIRRRRR

>WE'RE HUNGRRRYYYYY

What exactly is "chaotic" about spiders, mantis women, crayfish people and ape beasts?

>start A Night in Rocksbourg
>mfw fifteen minutes later

>>4658216
The Maw of Chaos is a manifestation of the forces of nature. It's not about some abstract concept of pure chaos, just nature unconstrained. Those monsters are just natural demons, like the Trickster himself.

>>4658636
>playing memebourg
you only have yourself to blame

I've been playing Dishonored 2 and I just noticed this. Apparently Terri Brosius wasn't just one of the writers.

>>4657759
Isn't it portuguese? T. Alberto barbossa?

>>4659171
nah "t." is basically regards in Finnish's letter writing.

>>4659171
No. It's basically what you write at the end of a letter or a message with your name.
In the end of a letter: "Regards, Anonymous".
In Finnish it's: "Terveisin, Anonymous"
And the short for that is: "t. Anonymous"

speaking of finns, how many well known FM authors are finnish? the only one I can think of at the moment is the one who made Returning a Favour.

The Thief games have such shitty AI.

>>4659228
the semi-alerted behaviour is pretty dumb (for some reason they turn deaf, allowing you to run up and bonk them even on tile floor).

however, the unalerted and the fully alert behaviour is pretty smart, especially for the time. they notice when things are out of place, they run for reinforcements and then lead them to where they last saw you, etc.

>>4657173
touch master race, jump is 100% pleb mode

>>4659228
Sure, but how do you improve it?
If I remember correctly, NamelessVoice had a script that allowed AI to create search parties.

>>4659238
>(for some reason they turn deaf, allowing you to run up and bonk them even on tile floor).
That has never happened to me in the last 20 years of playing. On a tile floor, taking one step behind a guard especially if he's already heard something, will make the guard instantly turn around to check out the noise. The only way to bonk the guard is if your one and only footstep that alerts the guard comes less than a second before you swing the blackjack. If it's any later, the guard is fully aware of your presence and is immune to blackjacking.
One of the stupid things about the AI is the badly balanced floor type footstep volumes. You can run right behind a guard on stone, but you can't take one sneaking crouched step on tile. There is no material between those two. You can keep running forever behind a guard on stone floor and his alert level will never go past level 1. Similarly, if a material is loud enough to alert a guard to level 2 alertness status from running footsteps, you can never walk slow enough on that material to not bring the guard to level 2 alertness status.
Actually... that's not strictly true. It's not a floor material, but the substance above it. Walking in shallow water can put a guard into level 1 alert status, but it takes running in shallow water to put a guard into level 2 alert status. All the other materials in the game are either so quiet that they can't raise suspicion or so loud that they always cause suspicion.

>>4659228
I was thinking about it playing a FM yesterday.
I think improving it too much would rly get rid of all the fun.
If AI would react to changes in the environment, like investigated open/closed doors that were closed/open before, switching back turned of lights etc. that would rly force the player to just blackjack the whole level.

On related note, I was a heavy blackjacker in the past. I'm still against saying that you SHOULD ghost levels, and that its the proper way to play. BUT.
I came up with sort of a middle ground that works wonders for me, and rly increased the fun i get from playing a level.
Idea is, i ghost when i can, but i blackjack when either the guy stands clearly on my way or when he or them, heavily restrict my actions.

>still fun from the challenge
>lack of frustration by forcing yourself to ghost
>lack of frustration from very slow progress due to trying to fit the pattern of the guards
>lack of frustration from design clearly not taking ghosting into account
>lack of frustration from not best placed rooms in dromed (these are the ones that take care of the sound, with badly placed room a guard can hear you where he shouldn't, sometimes getting on alert without you even realizing.)

This is the patrician way.

>>4659228
>crouching RIGHT in front of an alerted, searching guard.
>he's trying to walk forward, blocked off by your head at crotch-height
>"nothing there now"

Goddammit Benny.

>>4659651
I'm talking about when they go into search mode, with the special animation. at this point they can be blackjacked from behind, and as I said, they're deaf. feel free to try it out.

>taking one step behind a guard especially if he's already heard something, will make the guard instantly turn around
not the same behaviour. at this point, the guard still isn't searching for you.

>>4659737
Oh now I understand what you mean. The guard is in 2nd level alert and searching, facing away from you. They're not deaf. They can hear you and are reacting to it, but the search animation set has veeery slow turning animations. Only when they catch that first glimpse of you will they go into 3rd level alert and switch to attack animations. Very rarely during searching they will actually briefly go into a standard standing animation and then quickly turn around to resume search, but yeah usually they'll turn very slowly when reacting to additional aural stimuli. But they're not deaf.

>>4660065
they don't seem to react to sound, though. they just seem to meander around randomly, sometimes deciding to home in on the player for no reason, that is, even though he's hidden and quiet.

>>4660080
My guess is that LGS wanted to make it a bit less predictable and less manipulable so that players couldn't just steer alerted guards away from their hiding place by constanly shooting broadheads into another corner. It's probably something really simple in the programming, but meant to simulate "oh I'm not falling for that one taffer". In the last two decades from my experience they do hear things, but how they respond is not always consistent. Maybe there's like a queue of actions and a new noise stimulus doesn't immediately take first priority during a search.

>>4658842
This is pretty uncomfortable to play to be quite honest. I don't appreciate the Silent Hill music because I'm a big babby and the colour saturation is straight fucked. I'm lost in the beginning area and it's impossible to tell which NPCs will ignore you and which ones will hunt you down for miles. Do I have to draw a map for this? Are there really three of these? Is it trying to be deepest lore?

>>4659686
>>4659686
>Idea is, i ghost when i can, but i blackjack when either the guy stands clearly on my way or when he or them, heavily restrict my actions.
I'm a hardcore ghoster but even I will admit that this is the most sensible way to play the games. If there is a situation where the circumstances make it unlikely that you'd get through undetected and knocking out one guard means that it's very likely that you won't be detected, it's just common sense to even the odds. You should be able to finish a mission undetected without saving once, and it makes no sense to take outrageous risks by insisting on zero damage dealt.

>>4660425
2 and 3 are easier to navigate, but the colour scheme is still shit.

also, prepare for autistic key- and switchhunts in dark corners.

>>4659686
The most patrician way to play the game is to not savescum through every encounter. Consequences should matter. If you sneak like you can just reload if you fuck up there's no weight to the game.

Sneak past people as if your life depended on it, and come up with contingency plans when it goes wrong. Use flashbombs. Hit a guard with a blackjack. Run away and climb up on a rope arrow. Use the wide arsenal of tools the game gives you. Live a little.

The biggest complaint I have for ghosting is that it restricts you to use almost none of your arsenal. No blackjack, flashbombs, gas arrows, mines, gas mines, flash mines, frog beast eggs, noise arrows, all the good shit. I would ghost as a challenge once in a while, but to ONLY do that is to ruin the game for yourself.

>>4659686
I came to the same conclusion about AI, and I play basically the same way but while saving only at the beginning of missions (and quicksaving when it comes to platforming or rope arrows cause those can be bullshit)

>>4660991
>it restricts you to use almost none of your arsenal.
I get what you're saying but you know, if you were to ask the people of Looking Glass about it, they would not complain about it because one of the most important aspects of their design philosophy is that there should never be an officially recognized "right way". We're not talking about some mega-budget AAA experience where everything that is implemented into the game must be essential to the whole experience. With LGS immersive sims, you could have dozens different mechanics and tools that are never used, because they're supposed to be there for someone who might want to use them. Never using any of them is simply a choice, and implying that it diminishes the product in some way that there are a bunch of mechanics that are not utilized is entirely wrong. People who defend non-linearity, exploration and multiple endings based on meaningful choices always defend the idea of optional content out of the way that some, if not even most of the players would never encounter. Looking Glass was always about things that are there for those who are willing to seek them out, but it's never the right or wrong thing to do so, or not do so. Nothing in a Looking Glass game is there because it's supposed to be there for the player's convenience. It's there because it makes sense within the context of the world that has been established. You don't refuse to engange in some of the mechanics, you choose to do what you choose to do. The world doesn't revolve around you.

>>4660425
Third mission is amazing though, one of the best FM's out there.

there's already several emulation threads up lads

>>4661162
I didn't like it. Having to gather a million items to create keys to unlock those magic rooms got old really fucking fast and felt like a chore. It's not as bad as the other two, but I don't think it's a good mission all things considered.

>>4661165
Thief is DirectX, not Glide, ya 3dfx cuck

>>4660924
>>4661162
I'm gonna put my time into Sepulchre of the Sinistral instead.
I've heard it's scary.
I'm afraid of the dark in my own living room so I could fucking die playing this. Goodbye in advance.

>>4663049
The maze puzzle where you had to follow some obscure hints in a book and use your compass and get teleported to the start if you fuck up is pretty scary.

>>4661162
I dropped it halfway through because it was getting too ridiculous and wasn't fun to play. Just like the other ones.

>>4661062
The common argument doesn't run that way, and mind you, I never advocated to ban ghosting altogether. I like to ghost every now and then. It has become an obsession with a part of the fandom that has become unhealthy, though. When you watch someone doing their "ironman ghost" playthrough, all they're doing is savescumming every 5 seconds through every encounter. Just in order to achieve the arbitrarily imposed ghost objective. It ends up ruining the fun you used to have with the game, unless you do it well and take your time.

I'm not advocating for the absolute, objective no-other-way-to-play style of engaging with this game. I'm arguing to use what the developers put in there in order to have fun again. I don't have to use up every item in my arsenal to feel I've done it how the developers want it to, and I don't fall in front of my knees and worship the almighty god of LGS, but I do have fun with the game because they put all these toys and mechanics into the sandbox. Ghosting on the other hand is more akin to being in a sandbox full of diverse toys and refusing to pick up and play with any of them except a single handful of sand.

If anything, ghosting is what you describe as this restrictive "only one true way to do it" approach to playing the game. If you don't set this as your goal every time you play the game, you can engage in the game more creatively.

Just as an example: A few days ago I played Undercover while a friend was visiting, and just for shits and giggles we threw hammers into everyone until they died, and then cleared out the level. I've never played the level that way in like 10 years.

>>4663358
>If anything, ghosting is what you describe as this restrictive "only one true way to do it" approach to playing the game. If you don't set this as your goal every time you play the game, you can engage in the game more creatively.
>Just as an example: A few days ago I played Undercover while a friend was visiting, and just for shits and giggles we threw hammers into everyone until they died, and then cleared out the level. I've never played the level that way in like 10 years.
Nobody describes it as the one true way to play the game, and what you just described there is what everyone does and everyone should do. I've thrown hammers at Hammerites in Undercover too. The funniest part is that it doesn't give you a game over on Expert.
The part where you should realize that there's something wrong with your approach to the game is if you insist on ghosting missions where it doesn't even make sense. Like the Bonehoard. There's no reason why you should avoid being seen by zombies at all costs. Are they going to file a police report and describe you to a sketch artist? No. Does it matter if you kite a dozen of them into a single room and blow them all up? No, they're dead. In more specific cases, Kidnap has you assault a group and snatch their leader. There's no reason to avoid blackjacking anyone else in the mission because in the end they will know that an intruder was there. It's not like Thieves Guild where it makes sense to avoid confrontation to uphold the illusion that one gang stole things from another, or Framed where you are literally framing someone.

WHY THE FUCK WON'T MY CUTSCENES WORK JESUS FUCK

>>4664001
This is what always worked for me in the Windows XP days
1. Restart your computer
2. Do not touch any video playing application
3. Play game
4. Cutscenes work again

>>4658216
What's normal for the spider is chaos for the fly.

https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/MichelSabbagh/20170306/292983/Thief_tense_narrative_through_level_design_and_mechanics.php

https://techraptor.net/content/dark-narrative-lord-baffords-manor
Wasn't there an alternate/scrapped bearpits conversation? I don't mean the one made by an user from here.

Help me /vr/ I'm stuck!
I'm in the Lost City and I came across this, I guess it opens up a bridge to get to progress further?

Do I need a key for it, where do I find it? Do I need to go all the way back to the beginning and start searching every corner? Thanks

>>4666496
you didn't visit all places you passed by that are visible on the map

>>4666496
>>4666532
I fucked up. I managed to jump over without using the bridge, I got the fire talisman and now I can't jump back because the ledge is upward and I can't get acceleration :-(

I'm guessing I'm going to replay this level

>>4666554

>>4666554
If you're playing Gold there should be a way around.

>>4666554
If you're playing the TDP (aka not Gold) you can just bunnyhop over the lava to an alternate way out thats just outside the tower where the fire talisman was in.

>>4663380
>Nobody describes it as the one true way to play the game
There definitely are. If they don't outright say so, they'll at least say that it's the best way to play. I can't recall how many threads were just a debate about whether Garrett canonically ghosted through everything or not.

so..uh do you think Basso really let Garrett fuck his sister? Do you think she let Garrett fuck her?

>>4666673
From my understanding it's usually a misunderstanding. People think that ghosters actually argue that Garrett canonically never knocked out anyone when what ghosters probably argue for is that canonically the potential stealth mistakes that players are capable of making out of their own incompetence did not happen. ie. Every mission that can be finished without getting caught, Garrett finished without getting caught. Because it's a stealth game, not a zero harm game. But there's no reason to assume that he didn't knock out anyone. What we can pretty definitely say is that Garrett isn't a murderer. Afterall when Orland was trying to convince the keeper council that Garrett is no stranger to murder, all he could list were the two mandatory indirect murders of Karras and Constantine. There are priorities. Only a growly-voiced snake with a bandana is incompetent enough to get caught. Only an amateur has to resort to murder. And only an obsessive-compulsive self-destructive egomaniac would insist on never laying a finger on hostiles in any circumstances. It isn't even possible in many missions of TDP. Namely Thieves Guild and Escape.
>>4666752
Do you think BasSOY is the kind of person who has any business telling what his sister is or isn't allowed to do?

>>4667395
>What we can pretty definitely say is that Garrett isn't a murderer.

See, these are the kind of points that are easily disprovable.

Garret kills people in the beginning cutscenes of Thief 1 and 2. There's no way around that. Garrett is only a killer if the player doesn't kill people. Does Garrett canonically kill no one even if on Expert difficulty you throw hammers at full speed into all the hammerites in Undercover, leaving a devestated Hammerite sanctuary behind?

These are the kind of philosophical questions one has to ask.

On top of that, the Snake-bashing comment aside, Garrett himself gets caught in Deadly Shadows and stands trial. And furthermore, he's a known criminal with a Wanted posters hanging around. Garrett isn't a ghost, ghosting isn't the superior or only way to play. It's that simple.

>>4666752
we still don't know what relationship they had. for all we know, it might have been strictly professional.

knowing a lot about locks, it's no mystery why basso would be a thief's best friend. it would make sense if something similar was the case with his sister.

>>4668275
>ghosting isn't the superior or only way to play. It's that simple.
This is what I meant when I said that this discussion always ends up being a misunderstanding from one side. Not being detected is not ghosting. It's the primary result of successfully manipulating the main mechanic of the game. Ghosting is the combination of zero damage and lack of detection. And in these arguments the anti-ghosters nearly always end up fighting the strawman that their opposition is defending some sort of canon ghosting. Nobody says that Garrett doesn't use the blackjack. The first mission of Thief 2 forces you to use it 8 times.
And I think that the things that happen in the promotional videos are not canon. Mostly because you'd get a game over before pressing "New Game" because of killing. :^) If the intros are canon then Garrett can fall 123 meters and impact the ground at 177km/h without dying because in the Deadly Shadows intro he jumps and falls for 5 full seconds.

>>4668275
I disagree with your first point and have never considered those montages to necessarily reflect canonical events, but totally agree with your second point as Garrett is already known to law enforcement as of the second game and probably even the first.

>>4668303
You're falsely accusing me of strawmanning and you know it.

Ghosting incorporates not being detected, not knocking out anyone, and, in fact, not incapacitating anyone to achieve your goals. This is the common consensus on ghosting. And even if blackjacking is allowed per this ruleset, you have to discard the "zero damage" criteria. Would you say that I dealt you zero damage if I hit you across the skull with a leather object filled with leadshot on a dark night? Of course not. A blunt instrument is still a potentially very lethal weapon. You haven't even come up with a logically coherent position yet.

>>4668312

And on what basis do both of you discard the briefings as non-canon, pray? The calculation sounds like complete made-up horseshit since you can clearly see the camera panning down slowly from where he jumps, showing that the ledge is at best 3-5 metres from where he lands.

You're just discarding the intro sequences because they're detrimental to your position and you personally dislike them. Canon is what can be found in the official release of an intellectual property. All the briefings, cutscenes, levels and gameplay mechanics are canon to the game. It's as simple as that. If we took your arbitrary views seriously we might as well argue that the briefing to a mission isn't canon on some arbitrary, illogical basis.

This is something that every fandom should hear: What you personally "feel" is canon and is not, is absolutely, unequivocally, and irreparably irrelevant. If it said that Snape fucked Dumbledore in the Harry Potter books it would be so, even if it's just in the Prologue.

>>4668519
>Ghosting blabla...knocking out and incapacitating inexplicably differentiated...even if blackjacking is allowed per this ruleset...zero damage if I hit you across the skull...
I'm sorry but nothing about this entire response made any sense in the context of the argument and what has been said. And in the end you have the motherfucking gall to accuse someone else of lacking logical coherence. English is not my native language but it seems to be you who has a hard time communicating ideas in this instance.

If ghosting isn't hurting anybody and not being seen, then what do you call not hurting anybody and panic bunnyhopping away from danger?

>>4669235
That is Lytha Style. Lytha Juliana is a (German?) old-school Thief fan and she runs the Lytha's Thief collection website with lots of useful info about the games and individual missions. Her trademark playstyle is running around generally not caring about being detected as long as she deals and recieves no damage.

So I'm playing this deaths cold embrace fm right, I'm very impressed from all the scale and details, but...
why the fuck would you repeat levels.
Its like they learned nothing from the infamous t2 mask missions.
And i dont talk about city, city is kinda, i would say like a hub, you visit it from time to time, understandable. But that manor out of the city? I've been there already, looted whatever i could, now i have to go again and check same places again?
Maybe there is a twist to this mission i dont know yet, because i havent finished that mission yet, but it looks like the same place.
again.

>>4669739
One other things that doesn't help with the repeating city hub, is that paths you discover in the previous levels, are blocked in later ones.

>>4669739
One other thing that doesn't help with the repeating city hub, is that paths you discover in the previous levels, are blocked in later ones.

>>4668601
You were the one who accused me of logical fallacy, using an arbitrary and completely pants-on-head retarded calculation to prove your point on why you personally don't think the intro cutscenes are canon.

Keep on being a useless sophist.

>>4669235

I can't fathom why someone would argue that hitting people over the head with blunt instruments would be part of ghosting. When is the last time a ghost has done that? Last time I heard, they were hard to spot and phased through solid matter.

>>4669868
Firstly, you can't just arbitrarily dismiss a physics calculation to support your position. However it was done partially in jest. The intros to all the games are pre-release demonstrations of what the gameplay supports. I personally don't think they depict a specific job that Garrett did in the past. There's the "Thief's Tools" video where Garrett kills a hammerite by impaling him with a fire arrow even though there was no reason to break stealth with an explosion and a murder. Sounds more like something Garrett would look down upon based on his opinions regarding amateurs and murder.
Secondly I was talking about how you seem to have completely confused the argument by using incorrect terms and (probably unintentionally) misrepresenting the positions of your opponents. So I'll just list these here:
-Garrett avoids murder out of professionalism.
-Blackjacking is not murder.
-Ergo Garrett does not avoid blackjacking.
-Ghosting requires one to remain undetected without killing or knocking out any opponents.
-Blackjacking disqualifies you from ghosting.
-Ergo Garrett does not ghost his missions. There's no reason to assume that he would.

>>4654579
The Trickster's Return
:o

do you get any kind of magic in this game?

>>4670631
Just potions and holy water. Unless you count the elemental arrows as elemental magic.

What's with the keeper symbol by Bafford's (?) in the Bafford's Manor cutscene.

>>4672295
I dunno but that area doesn't even exist in any mission. The symbol is probably related to the keeper quote preceding the mission. It references the keepers saying that they would "watch him most carefully". There was a keeper spy in the shadows observing Garrett. There probably always was one, all the way until Constantine's betrayal in the beginning of Escape.

the keepers are huge fags

>>4670540
We've got a really high loot requirement, a really small burrick and another shot at the bad guy. I've got a bad feeling too but I'm in.

>>4669894
You keep accusing me of misrepresenting people's positions, which is simply not true. I restate and refute exactly what people say because there is no point in strawmanning. My post was reduced to

>Ghosting blabla...knocking out and incapacitating inexplicably differentiated...even if blackjacking is allowed per this ruleset...zero damage if I hit you across the skull...

and yet I stand accused here of treating people's arguments unfairly. It seems to me that you like to hide behind the strawman argument because you try to obfuscate the fact that it is your favourite act of sophistry.

I refuted your physics calculation because it was obviously completely made up. Garrett doesn't drop any farther than is absolutely possible to do so without getting falling damage in any of the games. On top of that: this is a video game. It has such a thing as creative freedom.

You need to learn how to construct a coherent argument as well, because you seem to change your arguments around from post to post to not sound wrong.

Let's adress these arguments:

> Garrett avoids murder out of professionalism
He only does so on the Expert difficulty setting in T1+2. That is 1/3 of the playthroughs for combatants, 2/3 for unarmed persons. We can clearly see him kill people when he is on a heist. You have only the inkling of a point here.

> Blackjacking is not murder
We had no disagreement over this one.

> Ergo Garrett does not avoid blackjacking

Again, no disagreement.

> Ghosting requires one to remain undetected without killing or knocking out any opponents

Yes, agreed.

>Blackjacking disqualifies you from ghosting

Yes.

>Ergo Garrett does not ghost his missions. There's no reason to assume that he would.

No. Garrett ghosts his missions when the player choses to do so. There are instances in which ghosting is not possible, and there are the intro videos in which he clearly, and canonically, kills people and knocks them out.

>>4672970
contd.

You base your argument that Garrett does not ghost off of a presumption that you fail to include in your argument, namely that only the Expert setting is canon. It's not - most people will have played somewhat lethally on Normal and Hard first. These included and prevalent difficulty settings in the games can't be ignored.

Then you just ignore player choice, i.e. interactivity, the most important aspect of any game. It's the players choice to ghost.

Now I've been associated with "anti-ghosters" in previous posts - for no reason whatsoever - but I defend their right to play that way. I am encouraging a more natural playstyle and not being so ideologically rigid about it being the only way to play it, which is quite often argued.

Now we've seemingly come to an agreement that ghosting isn't the one true canon way events transpired. Essentially what we've argued over is to what extent. I argue that player choice and difficulty settings are essential factors not to be ignored, while you tacitly only use the Expert setting as a standard of measure. Therefore I must ask whence the hostility, the unnecessary accusations? What we're arguing over is not some huge issue.

>>4673013
I didn't misrepresent you by shortening what you said using "blabla". I did it because nothing about it made any sense. Terms were mixed and used interchangeabley and the points you tried to make didn't come across. You have now corrected that, which I do appreciate so there's no need to dwell on that.
>I must ask whence the hostility
That is my question because it would seem that all of the 'hostility' has come from your side.
...and the physics calculation still stands because it's literally not made up. Regardless of how ridiculous it is to bring up in your opinion. I did the math. In the TDS intro Garrett falls for 5 seconds. A five second fall is absolutely lethal.
I would still argue that the variation of a mission with the most objectives is the canon. Most games do that. A sequel always assumes that the main character of the previous game did all the side content. Not just that but the missions don't just list objectives, they expand upon those objectives using Garrett's personal opinions. The game doesn't tell you that you can't kill people because that gives you a game over. Garrett tells you that you can't kill people because that's what amateurs do. Is the Normal difficulty Garrett a completely different person who doesn't hold those opinions? Also, since the keepers are always watching their most promising acolyte, why didn't Orland bring up the many murders of unsuspecting guards that Garrett had committed outside the player's control, in the intro videos for example?
Nothing is a huge issue in the end... but one piece of advice... If you don't want anons instantly dismissing all of your arguments off hand regardless of how sound they actually are, don't use "reddit spacing". I don't care but a lot of people do for some reason. One might think it's for the ease of reading. Little do they know it's the sign of wrongthinkers from the wrongboard.

I just beat Thief Gold. I think the only levels I weren't crazy about were the new ones. Thieves' Guild is way, way, WAY too fucking big - it feels like far and away the most sprawling map in the game. It doesn't help that I, like an anon mentioned earlier, actually made it to the vase without realizing that I needed the fucking key, so I had to restart.

Mages' Tower was a little too confusing, especially since, for some reason, the map didn't highlight when you were in the area where the water tower was, giving me a fuckload of confusion until I caught on (a glitch?).

Song in the Caverns, I'll admit, was actually fairly fun. I liked the conceit of a high-class robbery job on the opera house. I thought I was going to scrounge huge caverns a la bonehoard and wasn't looking forward to that, so when the switcharoo happened, I was pleasantly surprised.

Still, these three missions were probably inserted to add more thieving to Thief, but they lack the focus of the other missions.

Reading that the mages were added to Lost City is a little disappointing. I think I would have preferred non-human adversaries - especially since the Mages' presence wasn't explained ingame. It wasn't a big deal since there's only a small troupe of them at the ampitheater and the sarcophagus - which you don't even need to go to.

I'll be honest, by the time I got to the Maw, I was perfectly happy for a short, linear level leading up to the final 'boss'. The previous huge sprawling maze levels had fatigued me, and a change of pace kept things fresh and made the proceedings feel more climactic (waiting for old Tricksy to do his interpretive dance for 5 minutes was less climactic).

After a 1/3rd of the way through, posters on 4chan told me I ought to at least play on Hard, which I did. I liked some of the extra objectives, though discovering where they were was sometimes bullshit. I guess I'll do the same for Thief 2!

The orange orb is always done already when you get to the end of the maw
I'm guessing they couldn't think of a good rhyme for "orange"

>>4672295
That's Garrett's arrow stash, which he hid with keeper magic.

>>4673983
Uhhhh... Door... hinge?

>>4673983
Purple for putrid gameplay
Blue for bad musical abominations
Green for graphical farts of garlic
Yellow for piss poor lack of loyalty to source material
Orange for "Aren't you a fucking idiot"
and Red for high stress anger inducing masochism.

>>4673530
fuck the last three levels
I might've like the last level if the ones before didn't feel so out of place

>>4676936
WHEN

>>4676943
IT'S

>>4677002
DONE

>>4677023
BOY

>>4673530
Thief Gold is basically TDP+unfinished maps and assets.

>>4676936
This is too neo-gothic for Thief's aesthetics imo

>>4630171
man, I've never been to /vr/
seeing Thief OC like this after having the thief tag drowned out in nugarrett husbando shit on tumblr is pleasant

>>4641781
was gonna post this

>>4673983
that's amazing

She's a woman that really grabs your eye, don't you think?

>>4677474
Viktoria would have been a good recurring character if she didn't die in the second game.
Granted, the franchise pretty much died after the second game with her.

>>4677474
>>4677481
Did Garrett have feelings for ol' Victoria?

>>4677485
"I've always equated feelings with getting caught; they both get in the way of my money."

Maybe. Doesn't make much sense given how much of a turbo-bitch she was in Thief 1. But they seem to be on better terms by the sequel, lol.

>>4677501
What if it was like some kind of ironic foreshadowing? The first thing you hear Garrett say in Thief 2 are those words, and then there you are in the final level risking your taffer ass to catch up to Viktoria only to watch her die right before you, with Karras completely alerted to your intrusion.
Garrett got feelings and got caught.

>>4677515
There was the whole thing about a blood curse binding two enemies who hate each other together until they have finished what they've started. But I do like me some ironic foreshadowing.

>>4677481
Long time ago, when we didn't have any idea that Thief 4 would end up being shit, I liked the idea of Soulforge sitting abandoned, cordoned off by the Hammerites for heresy, and it would just be filled with rust except for one place. In the front hall a single sprout would have grown from the piles of rust, growing into another dryad. Not another Viktoria like what Groot did in GoTG but a different person, with her own personality. The name could be... What are some famous historical Victoria's with female offspring? "Alice" is too boring...

>>4630171
is this comic a hark ripoff?

>>4678097
seems like it
at least they're ripping off something good

Would he approve of DromEd? Is it an eloquently crafted tool that delighteth the Builder?

>>4678798
Nay, for it may plant vile greenery of the Trickster that burroweth its roots into thine foundations

>>4673983
Not true. If you get there fast enough you can see the whole ritual. At least that's what its like for me when I just sanic through the level on Normal.

>>4674012
That's not the place the arrow stashes are at in the level though.

>>4679352
>If you get there fast enough you can see the whole ritual.
Spaulding's voice lines for the orange "Borning" section of the ritual don't even exist in the game files. You can't get to the ritual to see the first part. It's impossible.

Why this happen

>>4672935
Two things I saw before. The corridor sealed of by wooden bars near the castle can also be seen in Gathering at the Bar. The self defense mechanism in the Inn can also be seen in The Living City. The innkeeper actually activates it and almost hurts an innocent woman! I expected a bit more from "The Smallest Burrick in The World". Certainly not a mission you can sneak.
Previously you talked about an inn being a neutral zone. A place where you can expect not to get put a knife to your throat. There seems to be an inconsistency between FMs. When you walk toward the Unlucky Hunter Inn, people get scared and guards attempt to kill you. In other FM's, let's take Lord Edmund Entertains for example, you can enter the Inn without any problem. It's not always made clear what you can do, what you can't and what you should assume. In this case, there's no notice about a curfew, wanted posters or a guard telling you to scram.

>>4680520
One part I found endearing was the Hammerite to your left when you spawn.

A simple executed trick, but it gives the impression the City is larger.

>>4680520
Inspired but flawed. Some new ideas and some good ones taken from TDP (like the water tunnels or the torch door). Even if some didn't work properly (like the innkeeper that shoots the arrow everytime he gets startled by something that happens outside) or were kinda useless (the burrick anti-theft system was great, but there was nothing to steal there), I appreciate how this FM had something to give at every turn, without going overboard. It has a lot of personality.
Its size and clean partition in three sections helped too. The first two are "circular", a simple way to give the player freedom while exploring them: don't like this side? Check the other one. I don't mind the linearity of the last one, it had its moments: the water tunnels part where you must avoid falling into a pit of monsters or the way you can end up in front of the bug beast if you're too hasty instead of behind it.
Problem is this linearity is what made the mission impossible to beat, at least for me. In the last part I went for the water elevator instead of the Eye since I couldn't fight or shake the haunts off me. After raiding the kitchen (greatest treasure I could have ever hoped to find) I got back there and found out that the gate that supposedly kept the haunts away from me now kept me away from the last haunt and of course the Eye. Turns out Constantine really hates the undead so he took care of the bony lad for me, but right after that the big mission climax turned into a staring contest between old rivals. The way the Trickster doesn't make any sound is really unsettling.
Nothing that an earlier save can't fix. Still, the gate-one way escape route combination is one leathal dead end.

>>4670540
>>4672935

Are you the guys that were going through them in order of release?

>>4680526
Hearing guards in buildings you can't get into also helps giving that impression. The city part of the mission had some nice touches like that or the haunted corner, and also an overabundance of locked doors.
Come to think of it, the automatic doors moment is what really surprised me, of all the things.

>>4680612
Yeah

>>4680619
Cool, which ones have you done so far?

>>4680668
List so far, some highs and lows but we've found some interesting stuff here and there. Saving Private Rye Anne is next.

>>4680701
I've been playing some of these too. Kind of funny how the readmes for like every one of these says "this is my first mission"

>>4680750
True, and it's also interesting to check which authors kept making FMs after their first. These early days of dromed say a lot about which elements of TDP stuck with the authors, where the ones introduced by the community originated and how the two things merged and evolved. In this sense, their second missions are almost more fascinating than the first ones.

>implying there's anything comfier than the obligatory early TG FM pub

Am I supposed to kill everything or sneak around them?
Once I get the eye, everyone is triggered and come right at me.
Doesn't help that I need to jump to get it, is it the landing noise or they know I stole the thing?

>>4680839
you're completely safe where that screenshot is taken. the wooden beams can be reached by the undead, but due to pathfinding issues they don't always manage to do it.

use this to your advantage. you can disappear into the shadows, wait for shit to calm down and slip out through the backdoor without using violence. or you can rain fiery/flashy death on the haunts from the safety above. if you play on expert, you're gonna have to kill them either way.

>>4680839
>>4680849
oh, also: fix your fucking gamma level.

the darkest point is supposed to be completely black, and the brightest one white.

>>4680852
>>4680849
Thanks anon. I'll try jumping back up and hiding.
I play on normal. I could kill them all but only if it was one on one.
>I boosted the gamma for posting, normally it;s in game its much darker :3

I'll post results in a few hours

>>4680849
Yes! got the eye, jumped back up and hid for like 2 minutes.
They eventually stopped searching for me. I even managed to kill all the skeletons, one by one, I lured them to a room and on the doorway I kept hitting them and they kept getting stunned. lol
Now I'm outside, and holy shit, this level has even more skeletons!

>>4680604
There's also a Keeper area/machine room near the Inn with a button that opens a grate in the City Aquarium. It's not necessary for completing the mission. No loot at all. Lockpick an unguarded door to explore a part of the scenery.
Do you want your locked doors frobbable, unfrobbable or just a texture with no doorknob?
>>4680831

>>4681582
just finished that one. the mug in the tavern was the one piece of loot that made me clear the mission.

anyone here played "the blue star"?

the architecture in that mission is so fucking great. it's faithful to the original game, and at the same time manages to feel fresh. it reminded me of just how well LGS pulled of the anachronisms in the architecture in original thief.

in T2, the architectural anachronism just meant medieval + random 19th century inspired steampunk bullshit. but in the original game, it was far more unique. the blue star really managed to capture that feel. I'm sad that the author doesn't seem to have made anything else.

for the gameplay, it's a bit too easy unless you ghost. I didn't find the required loot, but I don't consider that real difficulty. the big highlight of the mission was pic related; climbing down a rope arrow to snatch the well guarded jewel from its pedestal, without ever touching the ground. I wish this kind of thing was more common.

>>4681632
I did try it but all the textures seemed to be missing.

>>4681656
sounds weird. did you use some kind of hd pack?

>>4681667
No, it seems to be working now. I think I thought at the time that it was a T2 missions so I tried to play it with T2, which would explain it. Guess I know what I'm playing tonight.

>>4681667
>>4681692
That said I looked up a video to check what it's supposed to look like and christ, it's terrible what people will do to this poor game.

>>4681705
the worst thing is that the original textures were pretty much flawless, and completely consistent with the game's art direction.

I would be more okay with these HD mods if they could at least be faithful to the original in terms of colour and art direction, but no, they probably consider the original colour scheme a shortcoming beacuse it's not "realistic" enough.

>>4681632
No but I'll give it a try.

I find the lack of object-oriented missions disturbing. A good selection of FMs try to build a world and a story much more than just setting up an interesting level with a curious object to steal and adding some world building fluff on the side.

I'd love to see an FM about Garrett stealing the Gems of Sarnoth for example. That would be a good opportunity to establish the skill of a young Garrett. Missions like Bafford's, Down in the Bonehoard, The Haunted Cathedral. The Quintus Horn isn't some plot-driving object, it's a curious and rare item that you steal from a place ideal for Thief-based gameplay. There's Garrett, his tools, and a haunting mysterious item that blows it's melancholic melody in the halls of echoing repose. Good. Fucking. Shit. Why not more of this rather than a FM campaign that goes in way over its head with a story it won't be able to deliver?

>>4681705
Absolutely disgusting. What got me and any other Thief fan into the original games was the atmosphere that stems from the gritty, grainy and obscure visuals. Giving it some shiny HD polish while destroying any of that original charm really boggles the mind.

>>4681716
I think that HD and Thief art direction really stand opposed in some regard. Thief looked sub-par from graphics fidelity standpoint even its day, which for me just adds to the game.

>>4681582
Definitely no doorknob. A door may protect something important or just an empty room, but if it's there it means that I can open it somehow, that there's a space I can access behind it. No matter how labyrinthine a mission can be, the function of the elements that compose it must be clear. Don't give me a door if you don't want me to get there.
But it's a personal preference, and I understand that the texture door may not always work or look good. It's all about keeping things balanced by not putting too many locked doors in a mission, I suppose.
In this specific case I suspect that the author didn't consider using texture doors at all but some design choices, like the inn's attic, are weird either way. Maybe he made the building first and then decided which rooms to use?

>>4680852
>the brightest one white
where is the brightest point?

Thief is a CHOCOLATE game.

>>4681582
>Do you want your locked doors frobbable, unfrobbable or just a texture with no doorknob?
If there's no way to open it, I actually prefer no doorknob

>>4681927
>A good selection of FMs try to build a world and a story much more than just setting up an interesting level with a curious object to steal and adding some world building fluff on the side.
Well put

>>4682869
in your dreams

>use of rope arrows wus always contextual becus u could only use them on wood

>>4683975
The funny thing is that it's not even true, since ropes could attach to soil, vegetation and carpet too.

>>4684065
>ropes could attach to soil, vegetation and carpet

Who puts carpet on the ceiling?! ... oh, now that I think about it, probably Constantine.

On another note, any good FMs that anyone could recommend? I'm looking for ones that aren't puzzle or gimmick-heavy and just give me some comfy banks/mansions/graves to rob.

>>4680701
What did they do to Rye Anne?
>>4681632
Climbing down a rope arrow surely is a classic thief move. The sneaking was difficult enough. When a door is locked and you can't lockpick it, a key is always nearby and not too difficult to find. Although the solution to the attic key was a bit too obvious. Some of the loot is hidden in odd places. Why would you hide some coins under a bench?

>>4684148
>any good FMs
> good

There's not many in that category. Gems of Provenance II: Heart of Bohn was decent though.

system shock 2 is my favorite thief fan mission

>>4685541
>Gems of Provenance II: Heart of Bohn
huh?

>>4685550
I was thinking the other day how SHODAN and Karras are perfect for each other

I hope someone makes fanart of them one day

>hmm why is my sanctum suddenly covered with suspicious-looking patches of moss leading up to my pedestal?
>lol w/e fag BONESY WONESY ORANGE AND BLUE BRINGS ME BACK THE WORLDS ANEW

Is there anyone in the Thief world who was ever punk'd as hard as the Trickster?

>>4686314
>Thief world who was ever punk'd as hard as the Trickster?
garrett

>>4686314
Constantine may not realize what the moss patches on his ritual floor are, but he does attack and kill you if you're detected. In Soulforge you can build one and a half guiding beacons and bring them up to Karras' office window to show him exactly what you're planning to do and he still doesn't get it.

>>4686545
Karras couldn't win in a fight against garrett, though

This is a drawing done by the current director of the Kirby franchise, Shinya Kumazaki. It reminds me a lot of the robots in Thief 2.

>>4681619
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90551

>>4687286
>this was back in 2004
>nothing changed since

>>4687298
it's even worse now

>>4687286
That guy is from Finland? Wow, he's really articulate. Especially considering this was back in 2004.

Even the most uneducated school dropouts in Finland know English pretty well. Speaking of this country, the very first Thief FM I ever played was made by a Finnish dude and I picked that one by a complete accident. Circle of Strain was made by Markus 'Mokkis' Lappalainen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auld-cMl8oQ

>>4689393
>that arrow changing course in the air to hit a horizontally mobile target
Goddamnit I made the most thorough and objective Steam review of Thiaf that I possibly could and I'm still discovering more aspects of the game that are shittier than I could have ever imagined.

things ghosters/savescummers will never experience:
>getting caught by a guard
>running around him trying to land a blackjack blow in the hopes that it's dark enough to knock him out
>hurting him so bad that he runs for backup
>quickly leaving the scene and starting to explore another section of the map
>swiftly hugging a wall and holding your breath as an entire troupe of guards run past you on the way to where you were last seen

Is Tafferpatcher the only patch you need for running Thief 2 on Steam? The title screen looks stretched and blurry, and the HUD isn't as crisp as it was in Thief Gold.

Anybody else who knows about this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6tyGkbFRVY

>>4689401
Can you share where you see this?

>>4689523
>Ironman-ing Cragscleft on Expert
>Successfully undetected the whole way
>Completed all my objectives, just need to rescue Basso
>Get caught in one of the cell blocks while carrying him
>Alarm gets pulled
>Start running madly throughout the place with Basso's dead weight slowing me down
>Being chased by every Hammer and his brother in the compound
>Manage to unlock and open the door at one of the checkpoints with the cameras
>Jump in to the waterway at the back, barely escaping the Hammers

Looking back at them cursing me as they shook their fists, it was one of the best experiences I've had in these games.

>>4689590
The next shot from 0:34. The slow-motion arrow clearly curves left to hit the enemy in the head as he pulls his head backwards, to the left of where the player was originally aiming.

>>4689596
>Jump in to the waterway at the back, barely escaping the Hammers
>with Basso's dead weight slowing me down
RIP Basso :(

>>4689541
Should be.

>>4689614
basso is actually dead throughout the entire mission iirc. that's why he doesn't drown.

>>4684590
Kidnapped, apparently. Yet again, like in Sword of Drakul and maybe something else I've forgot (does Blood Flowers count?), FM Garrett is an occasional hero that does something good because the pay is good. Not necessarily the opposite of the assassin kind of Garrat we met in some of the earliest missions, he does that too because of the pay. He's some kind of factotum, a full fledged anti-hero. Different from the classic pure thief, but I'm fine with people experimenting with new possibilities.

>>4689739
Wait... you mean that it's actually a "corpse" not an "unconscious body" that is named "Basso" in the inventory? I didn't know that.

>>4689596
>Spend all that time making a beautiful montage of the Thief trilogy
>forget best boy

>>4690579

>>4690882
>current mode: dead

>>4690579
>>4690882
>>4690890

He had a quick recovery.

>>4689832
I'm wondering what the 'special' treatment entails.
At least this FM has some carpet.

>>4691560
With a guard on each carpet too. Their simple patrols nullify their number. Since in most cases they go back and forth in their own corridor, they're more like an inconvenience to isolate and take care of before exploring that zone.
The readables give this mission a personality that the mansion alone doesn't have. The little guards stories, Bruno's insights on the whole Garrett situation and his indirect threat to the player and most of all Rye's suicide note. The right mystery is sometimes better than the truth: having to wonder what could possibly lead Bruno's guests to kill themselves is worse than seeing the whole picture. At least in this case, where maybe there was no way to do justice to what the author had in mind.
Is the front door objective bugged? Maybe it clashes with the garden one, that stays there even when the escape route changes in expert. Or maybe it's just my luck, again.
The "don't kill" one surely doesn't work: if you kill someone instead of a game over you just complete the objective that asks you to not kill. Not even the game itself can catch this rule breaking rogue.
The note that replaced a classic briefing seems to me overly detailed. While I agree with you that some info on the FM's setting must be estabilished (and I liked how the other readables did it), it must be the right amout of information and told in the appropriate way.
Storage rooms for art are something I always liked since Bafford: a small detail that tells a lot about the lord of the house.
The fountain may be weird looking but sure as hell it's something I've never seen before. And it also exposes Bruno as a Trickster follower. Shady guy.

>>4691774
Maybe it was the word 'escapade' and the name Bruno that made me think he was caught slippin', but who knows. As you said, keep that sense of mystery. Go home feeling uneasy.
The readables really are the best part of this attempt at Dromed, as they breathe some life into this map. The scroll not only tries to set up a certain mood, but it also replaces the map by giving directions and points of interest. Like Cutty's map, some parts of the place are unknown ("The rest of the mansion I can only guess at"). For someone who is worried the letter was dry. With some editing here and there it could be turned into a heartfelt letter, but who wants to read a 5 page document right when they spawn? Tell it in a appropriate way, by dividing the information. Maybe add a mistake (FE: switch rooms), because something wasn't remembered correctly.
There is an updated version of the FM: http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71459&p=2361551&viewfull=1

What is the statue supposed to represent? The Trickster? A symbol?

>>4690882
Made just now

https://techraptor.net/content/these-dark-walls-speak-an-interview-with-thief-fan-mission-author-skacky

>>4692921
>The Black Parade, the expansion-sized campaign for Thief Gold that I once led but still closely follow
>follow

I'm glad that others appreciate switcheroos and Blackmail.

I found a bunch of Thief 2 pre-release Beta screenshots on my computer and put them all together. I've probably had these since 1999. Some completely unrecognizable architecture, unfinished levels, mechanists with swords, full bronze iron beast in the inventor's shop of the second mission and Truart alive engaging the player in combat.