/vr/ - Retro Games

>>4609425
So what you're saying is modern game design is worse.

>>4609427
Huh? Is there a reading comprehension problem here, or are you saying that having to kill yourself cause you failed to manage your items good game design? No game should require you to kill yourself. It is a fundamentally weird and clumsy idea

>>4609425
You made a threat to complain about a single room. The amount of pettiness and bitchiness this takes is mind-boggling.

>>4609440
Wow, really? I've played so many games with this issue. Megaman 3 has a jet section with a similar issue. Goldeneye 64 is ripe with "whoops, out of ammo, time to kill myself." You can't defend this, and you haven't, so suck this big pee pee. I brought a game and a section I just played as a quick example out of my memory and I've beaten the game several times, it's not just me bitching and it doesn't make it any less annoying or more acceptable

Fuck all of you autists, seriously, you never have any of the same opinions I do and it's getting really annoying

>>4609446
Git gud.

>>4609446
In the time it takes for you to make this shitty thread you could have probably made several attempts on that room. You made a thread complaining about a minor problem present in a handiful of rooms in handful of games: probably because you recently got your ass-kicked in one of those rooms and decided to use /vr/ as your own vomitorium.

>>4609446
Try the us version, it's easier. That or just youtube a walkthrough, because you have to do this level in a specific manner. I agree, its hugely agitating.

>>4609446
>fuck up in a game
>get punished for it
Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

>>4609456
>>4609454
I JUST BEAT THE GAME THIS MORNING AND THIS WAS MY SECOND RUN TODAY I WENT AT IT AGAIN AND I'VE BEAT IT LIKE 10 TIMES TOTAL REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE LEARN TO FUCKING REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAD


IT'S

FUCKING

BAD

GAME

DESIGN

YOU

RETARDS

I made the thread cause it's something that's annoyed me for years in games and this recent Megaman 2 session (which, again, I've beaten multiple times, you fucking imbeciles) was the catalyst. If that's difficult for you to understand, you are a true degenerate

>>4609470
I agree, you should be killed immediately, but you shouldn't have to kill yourself. That's stupid

>>4609471
Please seek professional help.

>>4609471
it's a puzzle boss and the only time in the game where "shoot it till it dies" doesn't work. is your idea of "good game design" that you can beat everything on your first try without having to learn anything or pay attention?

>>4609473
I know I should

>>4609476
If you put it that way, it makes a lot of sense. Many puzzle games, such as adventures of Lola, featured screens where you could get stuck and your only option was to kill yourself and start over.

>>4609476
No, my idea is that you should be killed immediately if you have no opportunities to win anymore, instead of having to jump into a pit on purpose or jump in front of a bullet. It takes immersion completely out of the equation also

>old game
>i'm not good at it
Defend this.

>>4609483
That's ridiculous. There are zillions of games where you may as well just quit because it's pointless to continue. How is that a flaw?. The only time it's a flaw is if you can get yourself into a saved position where you might have to start the entire section or even game again, like Body Harvest or some survival horrors. Noone ever complains about seeing a game going south and having to restart dumbass.

>>4609425
In the case of Mega Man, it was probably just due to memory limitations since the Famicom had only 2k of WRAM.

>>4609446
>Goldeneye 64 is ripe with "whoops, out of ammo, time to kill myself."

When the fuck does that ever happen? Maybe if your playing on 007 with maxed enemy health. Ammo management can be a bit tight in certain spots, but I can't ever recall running completely out of ammo.

well
you've fucked up and you have to die
what's wrong with that?

It's true. All that part of MM2 needed was a means to grind your weapon energy back up if you died. I mean Sigma in MMX had those caterpillars.

>>4609456
>and decided to use /vr/ as your own vomitorium
>implying /vr/ isn't a vomitorium already

>>4609919
this. and you can karate chop too.
but I agree with op, there is a flaw with some old games where they don't warn you when you've fucked up beyond all repair

duke nukems 3d is an appropriate example of running out of ammo and then getting fugged over for the rest of the level.
i have seen it happen in the twitch playthroughs and it is usually caused by using a weapon in the wrong way (short range weapon used at long range etc)

>>4610092
Every FPS, or even every game with any level of difficulty, makes you be prudent with weapons, not just spam them everywhere. I honestly think some people on this board suffer learning difficulties.

>>4609425
This is rather uncommon to categorize it as an "old game" thing.
Is this one of the first old games you've played?
If you want to pretty much never encounter this issue, get into arcade games.
>>4609483
>immersion
Oh boy, modern gamers...

>>4609962
It isn't, fuck off.

>>4610115
yes i do thank you
but isn't the example comparable to mega man 2's boss room ?

>>4610170
Sure, just making the point it can happen in almost every game. I'm guessing the people saying it can't ever entered "hard" or even "medium" difficulty in their playthroughs.

I mean, it depends on the length of time you're screwed over for, but it's not as OP put it "the one thing that definitively separates modern game design from old game design,"

>>4609425
How about you don't be a basic bitch soyboy and you get that shit done on the first try instead?

>>4609425
Dude how much time do lose if you do have to suicide? You just want baby's first vidya where everything is handed to you? This is the reason older games like this rule. You play for keeps man, the fun is in the challenge and the risk. You have to figure things out, requires trial and error.

>>4609425
>Not using the fuckin' numbers

How is everyone's autism so flared up that nobody has mentioned that you can just grind weapon energy in the previous room instead of suiciding?

>>4610987
More like people bit OP's bait.

>>4609425
If you use a continue the walls regenerate. You only die once and farm weapon energy.

>>4610992
Of course, this was just obvious trolling.

>>4610140
Old fart here, can you explain the issue with immersion ? I love immersion in games, retro or not.

Just played and beat MM 1 and 2 again today (finished 1 literally 5 minutes ago). Weird that theres a thread comparing them.

Anyway anybody who thinks 1 is better than 2 is a fucking crazy person. Literally every single thing in 1 is worse. OP must be bait

hey look
a difficulty spike
like
o m g

1 is objectively worse. Elecman is a primary case of being nigh impossible to kill with buster-only, until you realize how to start the fight by facing him and using timed shots by standing still. You can easily kill him with no damage and by not moving.

Fireman is a great reason for this as well, since most don't understand how simplistic his AI actually is. Start the match by instantly running up to him, don't shoot, just keep following him around. You can easily do this for 20 minutes without taking damage. From there, you can tell how easy it is no-damage him with buster only.

2, of course, is a nostalgia-turd's playground, mostly cuz they like the music, but 4, 5 & 6 are infinitely more tolerable than the first 3.

>>4609456
Do you even know what a vomitorium is?

>>4611000
Everybody loves "immersion" in games, just nobody can agree on what the fuck it actually means because it's an unclear all encompassing meme term.

>>4611283
5 and 6 suck
1 is better than 2 because the wily stages in 2 are garbage
3 and 4 are the best

>>4609425
There are ways to replenish energy before re-fighting the boss but they're either tedious or hard.

This is something they improved in the sequels, because they realized their mistake.
Anyone defending this design is full of shit, yes MM2 is a great game, but this particular part is bad design.

>>4611283
>but 4, 5 & 6 are infinitely more tolerable than the first 3.
way to destroy your whole post right at the end

>>4611309
All Mega Man games are created equal, my son.

>>4609425
>making otherwise classic well designed games inaccessible to a lot of young gamers

thanks for the lol. "this game is actually hard, it doesn't hold my hand and give me infinite lives. So inaccessible!!"

>>4609434

or, you know, you could actually manage your items properly and NOT fail? but that would require effort and strategy, so i can understand why modern gamers would think it was somehow "bad" design since it doesn't just constantly reward you for playing poorly the way modern games do

>>4611283
>1 is objectively worse.

god what's with peole on here saying "objectively" right before they state their opinions? this is even more annoying than the kids who used to say "literally" all the time

>>4611294
>I can't read anything longer than a tweet
http://culture.vg/features/art-theory/on-the-genealogy-of-art-games.html
I know you won't read it all, so just control-f "craftsmanship" and read from the first hit to the paragraph that starts with "It's a seemingly"
If you can survive that, then read this http://culture.vg/features/art-theory/aesthetics-and-mechanics-and-the-grand-unified-theory.html

>>4611617
fuck off icyclam

>>4611000
Immersion is cool as an ingredient.
Having it as the main focus of the game, either as a dev or as a player, just leads to bad games.
It's the same as with everything: game mechanics should be #1, everything else is the cherry on top of the cake.
>>4611617
Fuck you, Icycalm.

>>4611647
All you're saying is you only like primitive games, which is fine if you're a primitive person. It's not fine when you try to convince everyone else that they're just like you, or deny the existence of people who can like both.
Immersion is a function of graphics and mechanics. You only like primitive games, so "game mechanics should be #1" is the only outcome for you, since that's what's immersing you into the game. You're arguing against the exact same thing you're tumpeting, retard.

>>4611332
It's called bait, just like op. Ten years ago on /v/ this exact thread would roll off the board with no replies. It's just too ez here.

>>4611710
I like games designed around primarily their strong point, game mechanics. Simple as that.
PRIMARILY game mechanics.
other aspects can be cool as supplements.
I happen to not care for any other stuff other than game mechanics, such as immersion, aethetics, etc. But they are fine as long as they don't compromise game mechanics.
I disagree, immersion can totally ruin game mechanics. Plenty of games take the route of "let's remove this cool mechanic because it's too gamey and breaks the immersion"
At least you admit you're from /v/

>>4611861
>I don't know what I'm talking about so I'll keep talking about it and call people /board/
Time flies when you're having fun. Flow. Glued to your seat. Those are all talking about being immersed. All you are saying is you care about "game mechanics" more than looks. AND I'M SAYING THE SAME THING. I'm not arguing against you you fucking moron. I'm putting your moron-speak into useable language because what you've said is "game mechanics can totally ruin game mechanics. I happen to not care for any other stuff other than game mechanics, such as game mechanics, but they are fine as long as they dno't compromise game mechanics."

>>4611889
>Time flies when you're having fun
Interestingly, it's the opposite for me. When I'm having fun playing an intense arcade game and I finish, I always think I've been playing more time than what I actually have due to the sheer intensity.
>Glued to your seat.
Doesn't happen to me, I can shut off games instantly with no problem, in and out.

I care about engaging with game mechanics as a challenge of skill, I find that fun. You care about how those game mechanics immerse you in a world or story or whatever. It's different, and that's OK.
Game Mechanics =/= Immersion
In fact, focusing on immersion can lead to cheapen game mechanics, as I've established.

>>4609425
>have to suicide and deplete yourself of all of your lives on purpose and use a continue or else you have literally no way to win
Uh no. You refill your energy on those spinny blue things. There's no need to use a continue, that boss eats 1 life at most.
You're just retarded for not figuring that out, and also for not figuring out how to use your crash bombs properly in the first place.

>>4611298
>tedious or hard
It takes two minutes, goddamn.

>>4611332
>the kids who used to say "literally" all the time
They're still saying it constantly, even here.

>>4611928
Now I can't tell if you're doing this on purpose or not.
>I care about engaging with game mechanics as a challenge of skill

That.

Is.

Immersion.

Why is this so hard to get? It's like somebody bullied you and threw around the word immersion so you're trying to distance yourself from it by whatever means possible. I've been SUPPORTING you from the beginning. All I did was CLARIFY and ADD ON to what you've said by saying simple games especially need better "game mechanics." BUT, that does NOT mean complex games must have worse mechanics. They're complex BECAUSE they have better mechanics, and that INCLUDES your anti-gamey mechanics. Graphics are mechanics, too.
You can't escape. You're an immersionfag too, just like the /v/ boogeymen you're so afraid of :^)

>>4609987
>flaw with some old games
>when you've fucked up

>>4609425
>>run out of weapon energy or item
>>have to hit reset and use your password to restart the knowing ahead of time now how to beat the puzzle
maybe you're just retarded op

>>4612472
OK, Icycalm. Anyway, you guys won, have your board.

>>4613061
this board was briefly nice at one point in time

>>4611889
Yes the problem with "immersion" as a term is exactly this, that it refers to way too many things from a general sense of engagement coming from various things such as concentration or reaching a flow state to more narrative-related aspects such as suspension of disbelief. They are seperate phenomena that demand different techniques from the creators, occasionally they are even at odds such as diagetic UI forcing developers to compromise when it comes to mechanical complexity. "I like immersion" is an empty phrase that means nothing to anyone but the person speaking it, it's on par with "I like having fun".