/vr/ - Retro Games

Kickstarterfags on suicide watch.

Hopefully this will teach people a lesson to never pay for a game that hasn't been released yet. And in this case, for a dumbed-down remake of a great game.

Also you didn't really beat System Shock if you used the mouselook mod, because that breaks the game's balance.

>“Maybe we lost our focus,” Nightdive Studios CEO Stephen Kick said in a statement today. “The vision began to change. We moved from a Remaster to a completely new game. We [...] strayed from the core concepts of the original title.

ffs why would you do that when nobody asked you to you dumb asses, what the hell.
this is why i refuse to have anything to do with crowdfunding or early access; until the product is literally physically on store shelves there's still time for somebody to figure out some way to fuck it up, even if it looks unfuckupable.

>>4594759
I got the Gog demo.

Anyone want it?

THEY'RE STILL MAKING SYSTEM SHOCK 3. WHO FUCKING CARES ABOUT A REMAKE?

>>4596289
I'd like to see how bad it is, chomsky honk

>>4596453
This.

I knew that project was going off the rails as soon as soon as they started abandoning the original game's aesthetic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKfnTnZuC5E

This video from November has all the warning signs within the first two minutes - switching to UE4, and then abandoning the old demo's art style to take advantage of UE4's capabilities.

... and then last month they posted this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt9I-NfH81M&lc=

They're shooting for the contemporary AAA look like morons, burning money and producing visuals that look thoroughly interchangeable with those from any scifi game of the last 5 years.

I can't decide whether their CEO is a fucking moron, or simply a con man trying to suck more money out of people for the same project.

>>4596453
People might want to play the remake of the original for the story, if nothing else. The UI of the original makes it really hard to get into.

>>4594946
>b-but you didn't REALLY beat the game if you didn't do (insert arbitrary limitation here)!
Imagine being this autistic. The original SS1 controls were a fucking abomination and I'm glad they're gone for good.

>>4594759
MADE A WALLPAPER OF THAT

>>4601186
FUCK

>>4594946
Every single attack in this game registers instantly, and some enemies snap to you and open fire without any kind of delay.

You're a savescumming manchild with an unearned sense of accomplishment.

>>4601951
You are supposed and encouraged to savescum in SS1, the way the final bossfight alone is staged makes this crystal clear, not to mention all the bullshit ambushes before it.

>>4602059
>I'm not bad, I'm SUPPOSED to cheat because the game is too hard

>>4601951
imagine being this underage. your first game was probably mw2 or halo 3.

>>4602069
Dude, I've completed Far Cry 1 on Realistic and Marathon 1-2 on Total Carnage, you can fuck right off.
Also, read this: https://yuki.la/vr/4517550

>>4602069
Also, it's quite funny that you talk about cheating in a game, where regen chambers, which both resurrect you free of charge and save your progress on everything, are canon.

>>4602080
Chambers you can't use without disabling their conversion functions first, so dying SHOULD send you back a floor.

Do I really need to define savescumming on /vr/? There's a difference between saving every level and saving before entering every room.

Also, to put it more plainly than I did in >>4601951: A mouse in this game puts you on-par with the AI, nothing more.

Low look sensitivity is not balance. This isn't tank controls v.s. 3D platformers, we're literally talking about moving your targeting reticle faster thanks to the addition of analog input.

>>4602096
>Chambers you can't use without disabling their conversion functions first
So? Some chambers are near the start of the corresponding level.
>Do I really need to define savescumming on /vr/? There's a difference between saving every level and saving before entering every room.
This isn't Doom, you know. System Shock does NOT have a level-based progression (it's mission-based) and does NOT feature anything even remotely resembling pistolstart in order to lay the groundwork for considering SS1 as being anything close to level-based progression-wise.
>A mouse in this game puts you on-par with the AI, nothing more.
You can move, using mouse, you know. It's also far more convenient than moving using keyboard. I'd even say, that this was an intended way of playing SS1 in its original version.

>>4602107
>Some chambers are near the start of the corresponding level.
And so you find them sooner, otherwise you play cautiously, building tension, until you find the next chamber. This leads me to...
>does NOT feature anything even remotely resembling... close to level-based progression...
Remember those chambers you just activated a minute ago? They're still there.
>I'd even say, that this was an intended way of playing SS1 in its original version.
Wolfenstein 3D's interpretation of a mouse and keyboard control scheme for an FPS lasted a whole four years before Quake threw it in the trash.

The one thing I agree with you on is mouse movement being potentially more convenient than needing to use six keys for movement (so you can use strafing and rotation at the same time.) Auto aim still blows a hole through this argument if you're trying to say mouselook tipped the game's balance, though.

>>4602132
>otherwise you play cautiously, building tension, until you find the next chamber.
Dying without chamber activated on the level is a gameover.
>Remember those chambers you just activated a minute ago? They're still there.
So? The progress is saved, and the only thing new are the respawned monsters between the chamber and the place you died at. And, well, half of the levels (2, 4, 5, 8, 9) don't even have monster respawning (9 has a toy truck maze, but that's it) to begin with.
>Wolfenstein 3D's interpretation of a mouse and keyboard control scheme for an FPS lasted a whole four years before Quake threw it in the trash.
>Wolfenstein 3D's interpretation of a mouse and keyboard control scheme for an FPS lasted a whole four years
System Shock uses Ultima Underworld's mouse/keyboard interpretation.
Also, original Quake campaign is VERY much completable keyboard-only - and yes, on Nightmare.
>Auto aim still blows a hole through this argument if you're trying to say mouselook tipped the game's balance, though.
So you move and you shoot separately, like in RE4. You move behind corner, you lean out of it, you pop enemies dead, you get to next corner, you lean, you shoot, rinse and repeat times 1298. All of that crouched, of course (only slightly lower movement speed, while lacking the annoying "muh physics" headbobbing of the upright stride). Also, you can use firearms' knockback in order to sort of rock yourself back and forth slightly while leaned, so you expose yourself from out of the corner enough to get hit only for the very brief moment it would take to make another shot.thus being almost invulnerable to said enemy.

However, said tactics doesn't really sit all that well with completing the game in 6 hours (maximum mission difficulty).

>>4594759
Haven't finished the original yet. I quit playing a few months ago once I got to the flight deck/hanger.
I really like the 2nd one, and was looking forward to this re-release because it could lead to more SS games if it does well

Worrying about playing a game exactly how a developer intended and not deviating always seemed like an arcade/console mentality to me. On DOS/Windows you have launch commands, config files and in game configuration, mods, dev consoles, and hacks for many games. Plus the multitude of input devices possible. Computers are about control, and thay comes across in many ways, whether that means modding the game to work on modern systems or unofficial patches. There's no one way to play, when a computer game gets released it's the community's game now. While you can make fun of someone for excessively saving before every room, saying "you didn't beat that because you did X" doesn't make sense since computers and their software are meant to be easily configurable, unlike consoles whose sole purpose is to play games as is.

>>4603253
>arcade/console mentality to me.
Nah, don't blame some dumb fucks for this, particularly when talking about arcade games. There are plenty of "unintended" ways to play them and only the most plebs worry about stuff like that. Granted, said plebs are indeed probably consolefags, but they don'r represent the whole picture.

>>4594946
>people learning their lesson
>ever

>>4603253
There are people who care about artistry, and there are people who don't.
Playing SS1 using mouse reinforces the impression of it as of casual entertainment-only game, basically, as a toy, which is crucial in understanding, what's it all about, as an artistic work.

>>4603329
>Playing SS1 using mouse reinforces the impression of it as of casual entertainment-only game, basically, as a toy, which is crucial in understanding, what's it all about, as an artistic work.
What the fuck is this

>>4603329
>Moving in SS1 using mouse
Fix.

>>4603335
Since you seem to have asked: My interpretation of what this game is all about, can be read here: https://yuki.la/vr/4517550

>>4598615
Well looking at the concept artist they brought on board, I think a lot of the blandness is due to their work. They're competent when it comes to drawing and texturing, but they're not very adventurous with the underlying structure and shape.

>>4603341
>ludonarrative "muh immershun" bullshit
>"from /v/"
Color me fucking surprised. Return. Your bullshit ideology has killed classic game design (games are no longer good entertainment derived from their game mechanics).
Also, your plot-centric garbage is the true casual that killed classic games. I hate you faggots calling actual video games "toys". Fuck you and your art crap, you have plenty of mediums to enjoy that, don't kill GAMES. Well, I guess it's not 1998 and it's a bit too late to complain.

>>4603329
>Playing SS1 using mouse reinforces the impression of it as of casual entertainment-only game, basically, as a toy, which is crucial in understanding, what's it all about, as an artistic work.

I don't even disagree that the original controls offer a superior experience once they've been mastered, but this is one of the fucking gayest, most pretentious arguments for shunning the mouselook mod ever.

Games are fucking toys and there is art in making toys. There is NO art, however, in being art for the sake of art. This a post-modernist view, and post-modernist art is literal shit.

>>4603405
Thank you. I hope faggotry like that stays in /veddit/

>>4603329
What. Using a mouse doesn't take away anything from the artistic intent, it's just a method of control, which happens to be the preferred method of control for first person games nowadays. It's still the same game. Again, it's a PC game, not a console game. Doom had support for keyboards, joysticks and mice, that doesn't make Doom less artistic because it can be played in a variety of different ways.

>>4603417
I hope you realize you're trying to argue with /v/ here. Particularly an immersionfag of the likes of fucking Icycalm. Good luck.

>>4603385
>"muh immershun" bullshit
System Shock 1 was directed by the very same person who coined "immersive sim" "term".

>>4603429
Sure, but you never go this full retard immersionfag.

>>4603405
Some of the games are fucking toys, System Shock 1 in particular. Moreover System Shock 1 is a fucking toy, which has "I am a fucking toy" written in bold red letters across of it. This self-referentiality makes it an artistic work, since it issues a comment on how the player interacts with fucking toys, THIS fucking toy in particular.

>>4603436
What the fuck am I reading

>>4603429
By his own definition, good controls are essential for immersion.
Vanilla SS interface is really immersion breaking, but they simply did not knew how to make it better at the time.

Regardless, Videogames can be considered "Art" only if they achieve said artistic quality through means unique to videogames, which is interactivity and gameplay.
Any game that achieves artistic quality through means better suited to other medium, like film or literature are not a good representation of Videogame Art. They may be art from movie standpoint, they may be art from literary standpoint or a visual one, but if they are not representing their artistic aspect through means unique to them, they fail at representing the medium.

Which is why any "Movie videogame" or a "novel videogame" can't be considered a good example of videogame art. Unfortunatley many who try and present their videogame as a work of art rarely know how to do so, or realise the potential of the medium they are using, so they look up to established mediums and genres and imitate them instead, wasting any potential videogames have as a medium.

The saddest thing is that those are the games that get paraded around as art, and not the games that try to bring forth qualities unique to vg as a medium and expres their ideas through those means.

>>4603435
Why not?

>>4603467
Valuing immersion can be OK. Valuing it over game mechanics or giving it such importance just screams "I'm not actually into video games" and leads to bad game design.
What matters is if mechanics work as a fun challenge; if they are immersive or not it's a secondary affair (of many, such as aesthetics).
>>4603462
>Any game that achieves artistic quality through means better suited to other medium, like film or literature are not a good representation of Videogame Art.
Thank you, people should know this. Fuck this "make games more than games! art! cinematic!" BULLSHIT. Now fucking return to /veddit/ aleady, storyfags.

>>4603475
>What matters is if mechanics work as a fun challenge
Well, first of all, being fun and being challenging are different things. In the first case, the point is entertainment, that is, not being bored, in the second case, the point is training, that is, acquiring a certain skill. A challenging game, for example, can be made into artistic work via commenting upon the concrete means that skill is conveyed to the player, or, in other words, commenting upon the pupil-teacher relation between the player and the developers of that challenging game, on example of THIS particular challenging game. In case of "fun" game, for example, one can make it into an artistic work via commenting on how, using what means, the developers of the game manage to keep holding the attention of the player, to keep him interested in continuing to play that particular "fun" game. And so on.
On the other hand, you sure do value being entertained quite highly.

>>4603462
>Regardless, Videogames can be considered "Art" only if they achieve said artistic quality through means unique to videogames, which is interactivity and gameplay.
In my view, artistic work is an object, the intended function of which is to convey a comment upon the process of interaction of reader/viewer/listener/player/etc. with this very object.
What you've written in your post more or less agrees with my views (other than in over-reliance upon the term "medium"), thus, I don't see any necessity to argue with it.

And no artistic work is perfect. Still, I do think, System Shock 1 manages to get its gist across. And moving the character with mouse is actually quite convenient (well, would be, if fucking strafes didn't get mixed up with turns).

>>4603496
>being fun and being challenging are different things
It's VERY hard to make a game entertaining only through its game mechanics if it's too easy. Most easy games are enjoyed by people by secondary elements such as aesthetics or plot.
If you are only engaging with game mechanics, the best way to make them interesting is to make them challenging.
Examples
What's the point of a puzzle if it's too easy to solve?
What's the point throwing a ball at a basket if the basket is low enough so you can just put it in effortlessly?
Without some sort of complexity or demand from the player, games quickly become quite boring.

>>4598615
Unreal engine doesn't mean bad game. Oh, and just because the bulk of the citadel station layout has been changed does not mean that the story or weapons have been neutered.

>>4603436
>>>/b/

>>4598615
>Unreal engine doesn't mean bad game

No, but switching engines mid development is almost always a sign of bad project management.

>just because the bulk of the citadel station layout has been changed does not mean that the story or weapons have been neutered.

But changing the visual theme of the game entirely means that the original art direction has been totally abandoned.

>>4601186
doesn't a cortex reaver have a big spider attached to the top?

>>4603253
Agreed.

Video games are software, which means they are subject to the same hackery that all software is. How you choose to play and experience them is entirely your choice, just like you can choose to watch a Criterion film with your iPhone while waiting at the dentist's office.

>>4604126
What if it was built using server-client architecture with dedicated servers to process all ingame logic? How would you hack that?

>>4605206
You know you're being a pedantic shit right now.

This bait gets a B-

>>4598717
git gud nu-gamer and go beat it again with the vanilla gameplay

>>4594946
>game literally has an option to make enemies not even fucking attack you
>somehow using mouse look breaks the game's balance

Yeah, nah. You're just a cunt who only plays old games because he thinks it makes him hardcore.

>>4603436
>>4603329
>>4602107
According to the manual, the intended way to play System Shock was with a VR headset and a logitech cyberman controller.

>>4606149
Back to >>>/v/ ya fuckin casual cunt.

>>4595456
I haven't regretted a single kickstart.

>>4603253
>>4603264
>arcade/console mentality
>consolefags
? And you mean only plebs worry about people playing games the "right" way, correct? I can agree with that.

>>4594759
I really do love this series. Ive beaten the second one and am working on the first. Just got done going through the beaurocracy that would be expected on a space station that size
>Hit switch
>Switch failed
>Go to maitenence to see diagnostic report
>Report says go to analyzer to determine way to fix problem
>Analyzer says replace the interface demodulator
>Hunt down demodulator in storage area
>Hunt down relay 428
>Put it in
>Go back and hit switch again
Normally I would consider something like this tedious padding, but it actually fits the game. Something breaks, you have to fix it, and its drug out due to procedures setup for the station.
IIRC there was something similar in the second one where you have to find a data board in a storage room (a specific one among others) and replace it.
It adds a level of depth and realism to the series. And the soundtracks are good.

>>4606665
forgot to add, I also take paper notes while playing the game for the relay numbers, codes in audio logs, and what I need to do/ where I need to go. Its very different because of that

>>4606527
Some PC players assume console players and arcade players are the same deal when it's clearly not the case.
And yeah, we can agree on it just being a general pleb thing. The only thing we argued is that it's a bit more common within the community of console players.

>>4603685
In Remake: general layout should stay the same, but the squary rooms and blocky coridors have to go. Locations should be remade into what they supposed represent according to combined visual style of SS1 and SS2 to provide some consistency and maybe be modernized a bit.

In Remaster: everything should be done as it was done in Demo - 1:1 interpretation of everything and the only thing it did is made everything shiny and highpoly.

>>4605824
>le git gud skrub, itz the way it wus ment to be played!!
back to /v/ faggot, just because SS1 was released when nobody knew how to make decent first person game controls doesn't mean you have to put up with them
I've tried both, the original controls are insufferable dogshit and once they're gone I love System Shock. If that isn't good enough for your autism you should neck yourself

I haven't played SS before. How does the UI compare to SS2? Is the GOG version literally the original with workarounds, or does it include graphical improvements? I started watching this one guy on Youtube playing SS2 but it looks interesting enough that I want to play it myself instead. From the tutorial it seems very similar to Deus Ex, which I love.

>>4607151
Enhanced Edition is more or less a polished repackaging of various community mods, such as Shlink (a Win32 wrapper that runs the game natively without any MS-DOS emulation), mouselook control, and 1024x768 resolution.

>>4607245
Nice, that's next on the list after I'm done with X-Wing Alliance.

>>4607151
Just have something in mind. Contrarily to other FPS, SS2 doesn't have normal hit detection. Meaning, it doesn't matter if you shoot someone on the head, arms or torso. The enemy is all one big square (it shows up onscreen), and as long as you shoot inside that square, you hit the enemy. Even if the crosshair was at empty air at the moment, as long as it hits inside that square.

>>4607294
>hit detection in SS2 is overall like big squares
I hope some modder fixes this, along with putting more enemies in the last level, such as Protocol droids and security bots that now serve SHODAN due to her reprogramming them after Xerxes was kicked out.

>>4607084
there's also the "reimagineing" Where you just take the basic concept and main story beats and characters and do a completely new game based on that. It can swap genres and aesthetic styles and doesn't need to be faithful in any meaningful ways.

>>4594759
Man, the Hopper robots are stronger than they look! Got killed by one of them while trying to meelee it with the pipe.

>>4607128
This is like when some within the arcade shooter community complain about autofire (turbo)

>>4594759
Unreal Engine has its advantages over Unity, I'll admit. Even though personally I like Unity more

>>4594946
Demos aren't a bad thing inherently.

>>4594759
System Shock1 source code: WHERE ARE YOU!?

>>4607503
Just being able to study the source code is NOT ENOUGH. All software should guarantee all four of your software freedoms:
0. to run the program as the user wishes
1. to view and modify the source code
2. to help your neighbor by sharing the source code with him
3. to improve the program by sharing your modified source code.
Software that does not respect these freedoms is proprietary, nonfree software that subjugates its users.

>>4606527
>>4606969
Perhaps I was generalizing too much. What I meant was just looking at the two different retro communities. Consolefags have to play games in 240p on a CRT with scanlines on original hardware. Meanwhile most PCfags don't really care, people have no issue playing games in VMs, DOSBox, source ports or modding it to run on modern Windows. There are people on Youtube that play with original hardware of course like 8bit Guy or LGR but for the most part it's not really seen as a big deal unlike the console retro community. Most people don't have reverence towards 320x200 either, they have no problem using DOSBox or a source port to scale the resolution. It's just two entirely different philosophies.

>>4607531
>this is what toejam-eating lincucks really believe

>>4607575
The 240p CRT stuff I'd say is more due to how other ways to play these games have some degree of input lag, which matters in action games.
Most PC fans enjoy either RPGs or games that feature savescumming, thus input lag is less of an issue to them. The only exception I've seen are competitive PC players (like Arena FPS and RTS)

>>4607580
Forgot something: And even then, those competitive players are used to some degree of lag (ping). People used to consoles and arcades are not used to the input lag caused by newer devices and displays.

>>4607531
lmao that sounds like something straight out of a Marx pamphlet.

>>4594759
>With the news that the System Shock reboot / remake has been postponed due to serious development hell
It has? That's great news, thanks anon. Made my day.

>>4607628
When Marx was alive software wasn't a thing, idiot.

>>4607652
are you thick buddy? I didn't say it *was*, but that it sounded as if it could have been. Good job proving your retardation, though.

>>4607401
Fuck Hoppers, especially the ones in the Reactor level that respawn behind you the moment a door closes.

>>4607628
>everything I don't like is marxism
Fuck off, nazi.

>>4607128
What a fucking spoiled brat. The "kys xD" and "autism" buzzword at the end is like cherry on the top. At any rate, you're too underage to use this board, so kindly leave and never return.

I've played SS1 recently, and I can say with 100% certainty that I didn't really like it. I've finished the game, by the way.

The first thing that comes to mind is how meticulous everything in the game is - even with the mouselook mod, you shouldn't just go in the middle of a room and shoot everything up, or you'll be torn to shreds. You need to look around corners to shoot enemies. And once you get the hang of it, it becomes a pretty good game. But it all falls down once you realize the game does have infinite respawns. This makes an already tedious experience a lot more annoying. Even more in the dread 3rd floor, because that's where those invisible mutants appear. They're weak, but they're infinite. One of the main things I like about many FPS games, is that you can just kill everything and then explore the level as leisurely as you want, even if you don't need it. In SS1, it's the other way around. You absolutely need to explore everything, but the respawns just fuck everything up. It's akin to RPG's random encounters.

And mind you, I'm a fan of old FPS like Doom, Duke Nukem and even the more "brainy" Deus EX. I've even liked SS2. But SS1 is a very, very annoying experience. I think even the designer later said that making the player use all the keys on the keyboard a mistake.

>>4607657
It couldn't have been, because when Marx wrote his manifesto, software hadn't been invented yet.

>>4607907
Circlejerking in progress: the post

>>4609993

Drudging up pointless drama and derailing threads, the post. Move on.

>>4594759
Just finished the original.
Hoppers and the explosive maintenance robots can eat a dick
Good game though. On par with the second one

>>4594759
Pretty sure gamma grove is still around somewhere in between saturn and uranus.

>>4607917
>implying underage
>implying you aren't a blatant sperger king
>please leave and never return
Nah

>>4598637
The UI is fine, people just need to stop being babies.

>>4598552
Ok faggit I'm gonna get around to it.

Brace up for the demo.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/p8n249jna25gw0j/

fix that link up to your side

>>4611384
Posted the new demo.

Enjoy while the link lasts.

Sorry for that "fix that link up." had to remove the filename from the link. I didn't eraze that sentence by accident. The installer is directly from gog for anyone who didn't get it.

>>4594759
What should I play? System Shock Classic or System Shock Enhanced Edition? And why?

>>4611392
Enhanced

Because drm free on gog, and will work best on newer systems (don't know if classic will work without dos box?)

>>4611392
Enhanced. Aside from the resolution improvements that make the game actually readable on modern systems, mouselook is a convenient addition and the more modern control scheme makes the game far easier to play.

I don't really know why people would play without mouselook, all it does is make encounters even jankier and slowpaced. There's no additional difficulty in it.

>>4603405
>I don't even disagree that the original controls offer a superior experience once they've been mastered,
idiotic arguments aside, I'd like to hear something more about this view, what did I loose by going mouselook all the way? serious question.

>>4611396
"System Shock Classic" refers to the GOG version that made compatible with modern operating systems.

Bump
I wonder if Night Dive Studios will at least slightly relax their official stance on System Shock Portable and the availability of the stand-alone ISO once the remake is released to the public market.

>>4603329
Pay your debts, Icycalm.

>>4612487
>icyclam
who is that?

>>4612492
*icycalm

>>4594759
I wonder what happened to XERXES after Goggles permanently eradicates the brain of The Many?

>>4607657
Shut the fuck up, Sqoon.

>>4613262
Who the fuck is sqoon?

>>4613398
Bump
Who are sqoon and icycalm?

>>4612681
p.sure shodan had already deleted c:\windows\system32 by that point

>>4613860
I was talking about Xerxes, not system 32.

>>4614113
Same difference. SHODAN deletes Xerxes in the middle of the game with your help. You don't remember that?

>>4614125
Actually, The Many manage to take Xerxes source code shortly after he loses hisremaining control over the Von Braun, and then install him into the Rickenbacker by the time Goggles kills the Psi-reaver that used to be Anatoly. Xerxes can be clearly heard talking after the player successfully hacks a replicator in that ship. To my knowledge, he is still in the UNN Rickenbacker at the time of the destruction of the defense nodes and brain of The Many. Also, would SHODAN likely put in the effort to use the Von Braun's FTL drives and networks to modify and change the Rickenbacker to her whim like she did the Von Braun had Goggles not finished her off in the final level?

>>4611635
Classic is the original, unmodified DOS game bundled with DOSBox.

Enhanced is the Windows port with all the enhancements (duh).

>>4594759
>can we take another moment to appreciate just how fucking awesome and groundbreaking the original System Shock is
It's a step back in some ways in comparison to Ultima Underworld, a game that could really use a remake.

>>4614336
Whatever...