/vr/ - Retro Games

And upscaled, I see.

>>4580093

>>4580095
>>4580097
>>4580101
These all look like absolute dogshit, holy fuck. I'll take the smoothed look any day.

>>4580091
>>4580095
>>4580097
>>4580101
>>4580104
>>4580107
this is the 3D equivalent of playing games without a CRT

>>4580104
is there anybody who thinks this legitimately looks better than the real deal lol

This is disgusting. Jesus, thank you Nintendo for not jewing out like Sony.

...is this a troll thread?

>>4580123

What the fuck is with the laser cannons on the speeder? The rear one should be further to the right.

>>4580149
This. Thank you Nintendo for making a real 3D system.

>>4580180

>>4580095
The texture which Conker is standing on looks bugged. There’s no way the pixels would be that big. Come to think of it, a lot of the textures posted here looked bugged.

N64 emulators can’t into UV coordinates.

They look like PS1 games with worse textures.

>>4580197
Nah, the textures are definitely better than your average PS1 game but they are damn ugly for sure.

Do this on a real, modified N64. Most of these textures look wrong on emulators filtered or unfiltered.

>>4580191
Looks better

>>4580189
Looks better since none of the textures are that stretched

>>4580175
Same here

>>4580117
Looks like shit because that texture is scaled stupidly, same with >>4580104
and >>4580097

Most of the time the N64's texture filtering looks like a blurry undetailed mess. Rarely does it look right, but neither does this.

Crisp unfiltered good textures > Filtered, but bad raw textures.

>>4580210
>Crisp unfiltered good textures > Filtered, but bad raw textures.
It’s just a matter of resolution. Filtered will look better than unfiltered if both are at the same resolution. Hell, the N64’s texture filter actually ‘saves’ a few really low res textures from looking completely unacceptable.

>>4580217
You can stop now, that wall on the left is the biggest proof that the emulator is stuffing up the UV coordinates

>>4580221
If you crop it out it looks okay, definetly the emulator. Save for the ammo text.
>>4580224
Yet the HUD elements here look fine. Again, do this on a modified N64 and not on an emulator.

>>4580113
Not really. It's more like playing a 2D game without sprite filtering.

>>4580189
Those textures were drawn with the filtering in mind though.
Had there not been filtering, the pixels wouldn't have had nearly as much contrast between them.
The filtering averages out the highs and lows and reduces the contrast.
Without filtering the textures have too much contrast.

>>4580115

What game?

>>4580335
Deadly Arts.

Yuck.

This is why you don't make a console with 4kb texture cache.

Why anybody wouldn't use bilinear filtering for a 3D game is beyond me.

Filtering off means one pixel = one texel

Filtering on means one pixel = four texels

It's almost like supersampling

>>4581042
sony made one with a 2kb texture cache though

>>4581042
>Nintendo was making games with 4k visuals back in 1996

>>4580091
so bad.

also clearly using Scalex4 even worse.

>>4581049
Damn I guess carts really were retarded in 96.

>>4581132
nah carts were good

Stop posting trash. The smoothed textures are better.

>>4581132
nah carts were good

>>4581132

>>4581168
>>4581172
la abominacion

>>4581146
I think it's an obvious bottleneck. No biasness required.

>>4581194
>I think it's an obvious bottleneck. No biasness required.
Except the cartridge format doesn't really limit graphical performance much at all. It limits FMV and audio. There's a reason that nothing on PS1 looks half as good as the best N64 games.

>>4580095
>>4580097
N64 games will have a lot of instances of really stretched textures because the developers had the expectation that they would be smoothed. There's nothing wrong with nearest neighbor but smoothed was literally THE WAY IT'S MEANT TO BE PLAYED in these cases.

>>4581231
>N64 games will have a lot of instances of really stretched textures because the developers had the expectation that they would be smoothed
Not really. Do you honestly believe that developers wouldn't have put higher resolution textures if they could have done so? Texture filtering is free on N64, and you can use it on textures of any size.

>>4581196
>There's a reason that nothing on PS1 looks half as good as the best N64 games.

Yikes.

I actually think Nintendo did everything in house on a 650 line crt or something though because that really seems to be the sweet spot.

>>4580186
You are an idiot.

>>4581279
Ps1 is the weaker machine.

>>4580221
You're a complete retard. Look up mipmapping and bilinear interpolation.

>>4581370
Right, and what would that have to do with the fact that the left wall is FAR more pixelated than the right wall and the far wall?

>>4581381
>what is perspective
I understand that this is a difficult concept for somebody who is only familiar with PS1 graphics.

all this confirms is that bilinear filtering was a good thing

>>4581394
Looks like more than just perspective my dude

>>4581404
you would have to have been brain dead dumb to think it wasn't always a good thing >>4581043

Nintendo themselves explain here why not filtering is dumb.

http://n64devkit.square7.ch/pro-man/pro14/14-01.htm

>>4580175
That doesn't look half bad.

Fun fact, Quake 64 lets you disable bilinear filtering in the options menu.

Looks like a PS1 only without the shitty texture mapping. I'm not seeing a problem.

>>4581473
no it doesn't
disables post processing only

huh

>>4580210
(you)

>>4581410
>>4581043
that is only the case with very stretched texures, that were prevalent in most N64 games due to cart limitations

in most other cases this is not true

in games where textures are not stretched as much and/or of uniform pixel density bilinear filtering ruins some of the details that were supposed to be sharp - Half-life for instance looks better without bilinear filtering, due to bilinear not preserving some of the details. Later, much better way of texture filter were introduced like Tilinearcoupled with anisotropic procedures for mipmapping, but even then they can't preserve some of the few pixel-sized details that were not supposed to get smoothed out.

>>4582767
As N64’s programming manual states, bilinear is superior to unfiltered in situations where the pixel to texel mapping is not 1:1 or where high contrast is a requirement of the texture.

I think the misconception that bilinear filter egregiously blurs the fuck out of everything stems from the fact that many OpenGL modes on PC use lower resolution textures than the software modes, which makes people think that bilinear causes extreme blur when in fact the source texture is just lower res.

>>4582780
*where high contrast is NOT a requirement of the texture.

>>4582780
>the misconception that bilinear filter egregiously blurs the fuck out of everything stems from the fact that many OpenGL modes on PC use lower resolution textures than the software modes

IDK where you heard that bullshit, but it's outright false -there were never any extra low-res versions of the textures in the games, and no OpenGL implementation that I know of downscales textures prior to filtering.

Bilinear filtering the fuck out of details could be mistaken for lowering texture resolution, but in actuality, texture res stays the same.

Example:
https://i.imgur.com/LMeZgKS.png
https://i.imgur.com/EfANIby.png

You can really notice that N64 graphics were designed with the filters in mind.

>>4582814
>IDK where you heard that bullshit, but it's outright false -there were never any extra low-res versions of the textures in the games, and no OpenGL implementation that I know of downscales textures prior to filtering.
You must be really young or something. It's famous that early 3D cards like the first three Voodoo cards had a hard texture limit of 256x256, and also textures with power-of-2 sizes. The OpenGL/MiniGL implementations of software mode games that used higher resolution or textures with unusual sizes/aspect ratios either had to be reduced in resolution or cropped.

GLQuake is the most infamous example, but there are plenty of others.

>Bilinear filtering the fuck out of details could be mistaken for lowering texture resolution, but in actuality, texture res stays the same.
It actually improves the perception of detail because it is similar in principle to supersampling (every bilinear filtered pixel drawn pulls on 4 texels instead of just 1). Check my picture for a good example. You can actually make out the shape of the lava and its finer details, while a lot of that is lost to aliasing in the unfiltered image.

>Example:
Pixel art doesn't filter well because it REQUIRES high contrast to be effective. So this is a deliberately bad example. This is why Doom 64, while still using 2D enemies had them generated from prerendered 3D models, because they have more realistic contrast.

On the other hand, look at how the acid water is improved by bilinear filtering.

>>4583037
>it is similar in principle to supersampling
>GLQuake as example of reduced texture resolution

Indeed, Voodoo had 256x256 texture limitation but that was more than enough, because not even Quake used as much (128x mostly, with decoration using several patches), and when Half-Life came out there were more powerful GPUs out there.

GLQuake also had commands to disable filtering, which immediately showed that there was no texture resizing involved. The "Reduced textures in GLQuake" IS a misconception, fostered by filter smoothing out the details.

Doom enemies are not pixel art.
They were made from clay photographs of models and then touched up, with rare exceptions.

Basically put you have confiremd yourself to know nothing of what you are talking about

blurry > pixealted

>>4583097
>because not even Quake used as much (128x mostly, with decoration using several patches),
Remember, it’s not only size, but also aspect ratio that was the problem.

>when Half-Life came out there were more powerful GPUs out there.
Power had nothing to do with it. Voodoo 3 had the same limitation despite being newer than the game.

>GLQuake also had commands to disable filtering, which immediately showed that there was no texture resizing involved
I’m not sure if the Voodoo cards had the same size limitation when filtering was off. But if they still did, then you are wrong.

>The "Reduced textures in GLQuake" IS a misconception, fostered by filter smoothing out the details.
The only misconception is yours. Even Quake 2 did the same thing.
http://www.chebmaster.com/q2facelift/

>Doom enemies are not pixel art. They were made from clay photographs of models and then touched up, with rare exceptions.
They were converted to pixel art from clay models, and you can tell due to their high contrast nature. This does not look like CGI or ‘real world’.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/doom/images/3/35/Cacodemon_%28DOOM%29.png/revision/latest?cb=20171128032316

>>4583114
not him, but that's not how pixel art works. dooms art is pixelated but it is definitely not pixel art. "low-res" may be a proper term since its literally a downscaled art. you do not get pixel art by downscaling regular art though, so calling it "pixel art" is just ignorant.

>>4583104
>this is what nintendrones believe

>>4583215
Well whatever they did to it, it doesn't lend itself well to a texture filter because it has pixel art like properties. By contrast, Doom 64's enemies look good with a filter and worse without it because CGI generated sprites don't require high contrast.

Top Gear Rally has a cheat that disables anti aliasing and bilinear filtering iirc

>>4580101
That one kinda looks cool.

All others look like shit, though.

Imagine what could N64 do if they didn't shit the bed and went with 700 MB CD-ROMs instead of 64MB cartridges.
PSX was way worse graphically than N64, but it won because games could've had much more content and detail.

Did N64 have swimming vertices like PSX?

>>4580115
I used to play as the little girl in Deadly Arts and it made my older brother uncomfortable.

Then I grew up and became a trap.

>>4584067

No, it had perspective-correct texture mapping, unlike the PS1 or Saturn.

In theory, this should have meant improved draw distance on the N64, since the devs didn't have to tessellate the shit out of everything to reduce the texture swimming (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuH7RDIDZN4 for why this was necessary), but in practice a lot of PS1 and N64 games were pretty close. Though there were a few exceptions, like Quake 2.

>>4580101
whats with the googly eyes on the wall?

>>4584062
It's not like it mattered that much for the games the N64 got, sure a 3-4 disc JRPG is obviously much better suited for PSX but with the right talent they even got Resident Evil 2 to work. I like how the N64, PSX and Saturn all had their strengths, and all had distinctly different game libraries. "PSX but better graphics" would have been fine but then we would have lost the instant load times N64 games got.

>>4584070
>spoiler

Tell me more anon.

>>4584093
>in practice a lot of PS1 and N64 games were pretty close
I don’t know which games you have been playing but N64’s draw distance blow PS1 the fuck out. Do people keep saying otherwise simply because the game most well known for fogging, Turok, is on N64?

>>4580239
modified how though

>>4585298
PS1 games managed higher poly counts

>>4585321
They don't. I can't find the post, but it was disproven by a programmer on Beyond3D a while ago. He found that on average both consoles have very similar polygon counts, but the best N64 games use more than the best PS1 games.

>N64 games looking nothing like they would on the console or normal emulation
...okay? Is there any point to this?

>>4585321
ps1 uses its polygons less efficiently, when you are burning your triangles trying to tessellate everything thats close to you to avoid texture warping you leave nothing for shit in the distance

i too play with mupen64plus texture filtering disabled. since most geometry are rectangles i think it looks better as it isn't rounded out. its a shame some stuff really is made for texture filtering but its very obvious most things aren't at all

>>4585608
>stretched aspect ratio

>>4585610
that is just the hud

>>4585617
Link is definitely stretched as well

>>4585329
ps1 was all about those adventure games with prerendered backgrounds and detailed characters.

>>4585618
are you sure, i actually don't know but it doesn't look stretched

>>4585643
I can say with 100% certainty that it is stretched. Launch it with black bars instead of widescreen and you'll immediately see the difference

>widescreen

>>4585651
?

>>4585656

>>4585659

>>4584151
Bullet holes, obviously.

>>4585654
>widescreen
Widescreen is one of the worst diseases of modern displays. I've gotten sick of all these elongated aspect ratios, they're annoying. Screens should be shaped like a canvas, not an unrolled tissue. Unless you're coding.

Interesting thead, but the textures often don't look too bad.

I'd be interested to see Excitebike64's textures, it had some large textures iirc. Also, Jet Force Gemini.

>>4585685
so dont use widescreen then?

Another thing to note, the N64 had tri mip map interpolation. As the camera went nearer to a texture, the texture would morph into a more high-res version. Goldeneye did this on a few levels, especially the Egyptian level.

>>4585701
I like it for movies but I wish it wasn't the case that every single monitor being sold is 16:9.

>>4585702
It's sort of the opposite actually...as the camera moves away from a texture it becomes lower-res, but in such a way that the textures is properly mapped to a smaller amount of pixels. That way the texture doesn't have shimmering. You can see that a game like Banjo doesn't have shimmering on distant textures because it uses mipmaps, while Doom 64 does have shimmering because it doesn't use mipmaps.

I think what you're sort of referring to is detail texture, which is an extra noise layer added to a texture when it's viewed at the closest mip-point. This is used extensively by Unreal 1 engine games. The N64 actually has hardware support for detail texturing.

http://n64devkit.square7.ch/pro-man/pro13/13-07.htm#05-01

I'm not sure if any game actually uses it, but because it's right there in a programming manual maybe somebody did.

>>4580186
>There’s no way the pixels would be that big
Yes way, the texturemaps are really, really small in the games of that era. Even on the PS2, the largest texturemaps don't go higher than 256x256 and most texturemaps are half of that.

>>4586502
No, I mean, the pixels in that location look disproportionately big compared to the other textures.

much better

>>4586548

So huh, this makes them look like PSX games. Is that the joke here?

>>4585697

high poly count and snes-tier textures don't go well together

>>4580191
This is the only one here that actually looks better.

>>4587691
no way

>>4580091
newfag here, how is this done exactly? i'm assuming it's still cheats on a per-game basis using glide64 on pj64.or can this be globally toggled off somewhere else?

>>4587302
>high poly count
are you joking?

I don't get what people have against the N64 texture filters. The graphics look much better with them. What do you guys want? shitty pixalated ps1 graphics? Really, I don't get it.

>>4580097

Any screenshots rendered in the game's native resolution?

>>4588314
It looks like shit whenever super low res textures were used to get smooth gradients combined with the filtering. With more high res textures I prefer the pixelated look.

>>4580091
>>4580095
>>4580097
>>4580101
Who would want to do this?

>>4588321

>>4588321

>>4588324
>It looks like shit whenever super low res textures were used to get smooth gradients combined with the filtering
The thing is, only really really bad developers did this (that also includes Nintendo). If you want smooth gradients, using a texture is idiotic. That’s what Gouraud shading is for.

>>4589280

Nah. You are just clueless.

Nintendo (and other good developers) used low resolution textures to make large-scale gradients for open areas, and then layered higher resolution textures on top of them with a mask. This has the effect of avoiding a tiled look in open spaces such as Hyrule Field in OoT.

You can easily see that technique in screenshots like this one >>4588321. It works very well with the correct filtering.