/vr/ - Retro Games

>>4579378

Not really. !0 years is a long gap and your missing many classics such as r-type that is very influential.

>>4579560
>vertical

Swap buttsugun with Garegga

>>4579582
If anything I'd swap DDP with Garegga, but I think DDP had a bigger impact on later games.
Anyway, remember: this is not a "TOP 5 BEST SHOOTERS" list, just the most influential.

>>4579627
Batsugun Special isn't really influential, it was a rare PCB until the Saturn version was released on 1996.
Also both V-V and Batsugun special felt like an attempt to adapt old Konami shooters to vertical design rather than something too original

where's touhou

4579664
Arcades, troll

>>4579627
I put regular Batsugun, not the Special Version.

>>4579670
>I put regular Batsugun, not the Special Version.
Meant for >>4579658, sorry.

>>4579670
>I put regular Batsugun
In that care it's even less influential, original just play like your typical Toaplan shooter, put V-V instead

>>4579681
Lacking the small hitbox from Special doesn't change the fact that the game features an style of patterns (denser and slower barrages of bullets) that would become very popular afterward. Sure, V-V also features this stuff, but its "Gradius" elements and its unique way of changing your shooting type by not firing and then reposition it isn't something that stuck at all, Batsugun feels more influential.
The fact that it's still not a bullet hell doesn't make it less impactfulipact, I'd say. Sure, the patterns aren't as insane yet, the hitbox isn't that small and the big emphasis on deep scoring isn't there yet. But it played a big role in the transition between the Flying Shark style and the DDP style.

>>4579378

swap batsugun with raiden. It was released 3 years earlier (1990) and had a much bigger influence.

>>4579712
>impactulipact
Fucking browser lol
My post is a bit shaky, sorry for that.

>>4579714
I see Raiden as more of a refinement of the Flying Shark (and Twin Cobra) style. It just was more popular, but it wasn't exactly groundbreaking.

>>4579714

lol, can Raiden really be considered influential when it is so blatantly Toaplan derived?

>>4579712
It's not just the hitbox dumbass, it's the lack of a decent bullet count , Grind stormer is much more insane with the bullet-count and feels very danmaku-ish for the time, the revenge bullet pattern was the basis for Batsugun special and future cave games.

>>4579730
No need to insult, I understand your point.
It's just that putting V-V in the top 5 most influential vertical shooters seems weird when only one key element it did was influential, while Batsugun's whole package seems to fit better with later games.

>>4579728
Exactly what I told him here >>4579720

>>4579743
Bullet count is the key point and Batsugun original lacked it, you retard

>>4579750
I still think it's a step up in that regard compared to previous games except for V-V, and I can see V-V replacing it, you have a good point too, but oh well. We just have different priorities in how we rank these as influential.

>>4579768
Your priorities are wrong tho, Mushihimesama isn't any less danmaku for letting you change weapon or having gradius style options. Also the normal shot in Grind stormer is the closest thing to the shot/laser system implemented in DDP.

>>4579378
>Late 80's: Flying Shark (Toaplan)

the Toaplard strikes back!!

>>4579814
not him but name a more important vert big boi

>>4579814
He's correct

>>4579809
Now that I think about it, yeah. I still find it weird to have V-V due to how experimental the whole "grab powerups and select them in a menu like in Gradius" feels for verts, which is something that, as I said, didn't stick at all. But thinking about it you seem to be right.

>>4579838
>"grab powerups and select them in a menu like in Gradius"
Play Grind stormer then, that's more like standard vert

>>4579849
oh and it was also released in japan as V-V Bomber version

>>4579854
>oh and it was also released in japan as V-V Bomber version
Didn't know about this, thanks. Though I haven't played the Grind Stormer version, how does it fare compared to V-V? I like V-V quite a bit and don't mind the Gradius stuff, in fact I'm big Gradius fan as well and I prefer Life Force to Salamander.

>>4579859
Grind stormer is mostly the same but with a bomb hud instead of the gradius power-up system, the 2nd loop supposedly is a bit harder on Grind stormer than V-V

>>4579859
>I prefer Life Force to Salamander
What are the differences?

>>4579886
The biggest difference is that Life Force features a powerup system that's more similar to the Gradius series. It also has some aesthetical differences: changed graphics, sound clips and a couple of entirely different songs. Check them out here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_041IOyaEI
If you're familiar with the NES port, it has that kind of powerup system. In the original you get different types of powerups floating, like speed ups, options, etc. and not the generic orbs that move your selection menu.
>>4579867
How do you get the powerups then, is it like in Salamander?

Since we're talking about it, and have been a bit recently on /vr/ it seems, please enjoy the Salamander OVA, if you haven't seen it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYQ25WVLHck

>>4579908
main reason to watch this is the orchestral renditions of a few of the songs
I didn't like how Lord British was somehow an epic super skilled pilot out of nowhere at the end

>>4579901
Was confused by your post but then realized that you mean the JP version of Lifeforce instead of the US one. God what a clusterfuck.

>>4579926
Sorry if I my post was too confusing, anon.
>>4579908
Delicious https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaIu2nkZjCE

>>4579926
here's why it's confusing to me. as far as I understand:
in Japan, Salamander arcade is the one where you pick up powerups, Lifeforce arcade is the alternate version with Gradius' power-up system, and the fire level is blue instead of red (I think it's supposed to be stomach acid), and the 2nd boss is a brain instead of a machine and his arms move counter-clockwise, whereas his armos move clockwise in Salamander. But in NA only Lifeforce came out in arcades? I don't know I wasn't around. And for the NES port, the title is Salamander in Japan, even though it's much more similar to arcade LIfeforce than Arcade Salamander

>>4579937
US Life Force is like Salamander, yes. It's confusing as fuck.
The Famicom version of Salamander is like the arcade Salamander / Life Force US, while the NES version of Life Force is like the Japanese Life Force.
Enjoy the mindfuck.

I did some research for this V-V Bomber Ver. and it works by inputting a code in the title screen of the regular V-V rom, interesting. I'll give this a try tomorrow; I think I still prefer the original but you never know till you give it a chance. Now, off to rest.

>>4579378
>Late 80's: Flying Shark (Toaplan)
>Early 90's: Batsugun (Toaplan)

These 2 don't belong on there.

Gradius, R-Type, Defender, and Rayforce were arguably all more influential. And for better or worse, Touhou shit is probably more influential as well.

>>4580108
He's talking about vertical scrollers, learn to read, dumbass. Touhou was itself inspired by both Flying Shark and Batsugun, albeit indirectly.

>>4579720
>I see Raiden as more of a refinement of the Flying Shark (and Twin Cobra) style.

and flying shark was a refinement of the 1942 series, it didnt really innovate either. I think 1943 kai was more influential than flying shark at the time.

>>4580195
>I think 1943 kai was more influential than flying shark at the time.
Not only did it come out later but on what grounds do you make that statement? Where's your case? Hishouzame is cited by many developers as a massive influence on their games and vertical shooters as a whole, Psikyo, Seibu Kaihatsu, ChoRenSha dev, CAVE and others along with pioneering the wider screen scrolling you see in every shooter today and popularizing bombs

>>4580223
Oh, and can't forget about bullet sealing don't think any games before it had that mechanic

>>4580195
Flying shark wasn't just a "refinement", sure 1942 series popularized the WW2 theme, but influential gameplay mechanics, stage layouts and enemy design came from Toaplan, not Capcom.

>>4580223
>and popularizing bombs

using bombs to clear the screen & get out of trouble was a mechanic from defender.

>>4580231
Defender didn't even cancel bullets while bombing did it? Flying Shark bombs are actually more offensive in nature though.

>>4580236
>Defender didn't even cancel bullets while bombing did it?

yes it did.

Look no further than 19XX to see that Capcom was more influenced by Toaplan-like design than even their own games

>>4580242
Just tested it, it didn't. Why are you lying? Anyhow, popularizing isn't the same as inventing something.

>>4580251

>>4580262

>>4580268
>muh boogieman
not an argument fag

>>4580273

since your so obsessed with toaplan, im interested with why the late 80's entry your arguing for is flying shark and not tatsujin, an objectively better game?

>>4580286
Read the OP, it's about influence not which you prefer. Don't be such a retard. If you have some info about other shmups of the time period being more influential then please do share, otherwise you're just being a contrarian.

>>4580286
it's about influence, tatsujin is a game that works around mechanics already implemented in Flying shark and Twin cobra, also I'd say its attention to terrain isn't as exemplary as the previous two games, which is something key to Toaplan design

Were there any stage-based shmups before Rayforce with scoring systems as cohesive and well implemented? I can't think of any, it's the first shooter where the scoring felt like its own game, rather than just a bunch of different tricks and secrets.

>>4580306
omega fighter, what do i win

>>4580308
Here's some Psikyo titties I guess

>>4579627
then you have to swap garegga for ddp as it was garegga that inspired ikeda to make ddp.

although this thread has kinda devolved into a shitstorm thanks to toaplanfaggot, I cant help but think that a horizontal scroller version of the same thread would quickly devolve in to an r-type vs gradius shitstorm which would probably be worse.

>>4580326
More like because of contrarian idiots who call everyone the toaplanfag instead of actually discussing the games and their influence

>>4580328

i was talking about you not to you faggot.

>>4580339
>implying I'm the toaplan fag
Proving my point you paranoid fool

>>4579378
>Late 70's: Space Invaders (Taito)
>Early 80's: Xevious (Namco)
>Late 80's: Flying Shark (Toaplan)
>Early 90's: Batsugun (Toaplan)
>Late 90's: DoDonPachi (Cave)
>Would you say this is right?

so, to recap with the ones most people here would agree with,

late:70's : Space Invaders (i dont think anyone could argue this)
Early 80's : Xevious (first vert scrolling shooter, first for having split ground & air sprite planes, first for bosses - again pretty hard to argue otherwise)
Late 80's: ???
Early 90's: ???
Late 90's: DoDonPachi or Battle Garegga?

is this about where were at in agreement?

>>4580357
Flying Shark is a good pick, Dodonpachi and Battle Gayreggae are both damn important. Only Batsugun is a contentious pick 2bh

>>4580357
what is the actual origin of bosses? dungeons & dragons?

>>4580361

in a non video game sense, no idea. /TG/ might know.

>>4579578
>never grabbed a yellow crystal
Makes sense. I think you have to get to the second level of this game considered unbeatable by /vr/ to even see one. But watch an LP and you can see for yourself that it does indeed make you shoot vertically.
I don't doubt that anon is retarded but so are you for thinking this is a thread about vertical scrolling SHMUPs when Space Invaders in literally the first fucking game on the list.

>>4580360
>Dodonpachi and Battle Gayreggae are both damn important

yeah between these 2 its really hard to decide. Dodonpachi is the more widely influential game in later years but it wouldnt exist without garegga's influence. I think both is the correct answer.

OP is back
>>4580108
>arcade
>vertical
Rayforce is indeed pretty up there, if the list was extended to 10 or something it would be there.
Batsugun not belonging was a point we already addressed, if anything we thought of replacing it with V-V.
>>4580195
These anons make a good job at explaining why that game is so influential:
>>4580223
>>4580228
>>4580229

>>4580236
Didn't Tiger Heli already have this?

>>4580268
That guy wasn't me. I'm not the only one that likes Toaplan here, I'm just the one that mentions their games the most.

>>4580286
I prefer Truxton myself. However, Flying Shark had a bigger an earlier impact.

>>4580313
>>4580387
Sure, Garegga inspired DDP.
But DDP inspired A LOT. Not many games after Garegga followed its style of rank system, options, bullets, etc. while DDP pattern style became the mainstream of the genre. DDP was only inspired by the higher bullet count AFAIK.
>>4580326
"toaplanfaggot" is me, and the OP, I was absent from >>4580092 on till now.

>>4580357
Flying Shark is pretty undeniable, the one arguing against were mostly trolls.
For early 90's I guess V-V, and late 90's DDP.

>>4580374
Shooting upwards in an horizontally scrolling game doesn't make it a vert lol
And if you want me to exclude non-scrolling verts then I guess drop the late 70's category since autoscrollers didn't really exist back then. However, I think ignoring Space Invaders as the true origin would be a mistake.

early 90s is too transitional/experimental, there isn't really defining game

>>4581227
Good point, I had thought of this myself. I mean, if the best we can come up with is V-V (or Rayforce but that's getting late for the "early 90's" category) that should tell you something.

>>4579378
OP again.
What do you think about this revision?
Second half of the 70's: Space Invaders (Taito), Galaxian (Namco)
First half of the 80's: Xevious (Namco)
Second half ot the 80's: Flying Shark, Twin Cobra (Toaplan)
First half of the 90's: V-V, Batsugun (Toaplan), Rayforce (Taito)
Second half of the 90's: DoDonPachi (Cave), Battle Garegga (Raizing)
I feel a bit bad about extending the list and not including any Psikyo stuff. For the first half of the 80's I didn't know if to include 1942 and/or Star Force as well.

>>4581398
(It's a top 10 now btw)

>>4581398
seems good to me

>>4581398
seems good, maybe drop batsugun and put another game for early 80s

>>4581476
Good idea, but which one? 1942, Star Force? Any suggestions?

>>4581492
1942 seems alright, WW2 and finite games weren't as prominent afaik

>>4581524
>>4579378
So it ends up being this then:
Later half of the 70's: Space Invaders (Taito). Runner-up: Galaxian (Namco)
First half of the 80's: Xevious (Namco). Runner-up: 1942 (Capcom)
Later half of the 80's: Flying Shark. Runner-up: Twin Cobra (both by Toaplan)
First half of the 90's: V-V (Toaplan). Runner-up: RayForce (Taito)
Later half of the 90's: DoDonPachi (Cave). Runner-up: Battle Garegga (Raizing)

>>4579820
Not him, but off the top of my head...

Dragon Spirit
Xevious
Twinbee
Zanac

I’m not sure how you define “important” among vertically scrolling shooters, but these games are far more memorable.

>>4582197
The top three are just Xevious derivative, that formula died fast with only rare exceptions like Rayforce.
Zanac is typical Star Force-like stuff but with the typical compile traits like more weapons and long ass stages, not all that influential

>>4582197
What >>4582261 said. Dragon Spirit/Saber in particular are more advanced Xevious-style games. Also, Zanac isn't an arcade game.
Also, Xevious is already on the list (as the most influential game of the first half of the 80's). Stuff like Flying Shark and Twin Cobra, however, marked a new generation and inspired a lot of shooter devs.
This is why Raiden isn't on the list. While it is amazing, it was a game in the Flying Shark / Twin Cobra style.
We're considering only the most influential games for the development of the genre, not the "best" ones or anything. Anyway, final list so far: >>4581538

>>4581198
Shooting upwards is exactly what shooting vertical is

>>4583973
No, it's scrolling vertically, as well as shooting upwards by default. Also, R-Type is a cool as fuck game, but definitely a hori-style game in terms of design (heavy emphasis on terrain and the like).
Look, I wouldn't mind putting that game in a list that included all perspectives (and it deserves to be in there), I just wanted to make this simpler and more elegant by focusing only on the verts which are distinct enough.

Raiden had a huge impact. It was popular during an era where shooters werent in the west.

>>4584007
As said here >>4579720
popularity wasn't the thing we were looking for here. The game was good and popular, but derivative. It didn't really break any new grounds nor really influence how later shooters were made in any meaningful way.

>>4583991
I assure you that shooting upwards and shooting vertically are exactly the same thing

>>4579378
What? No Raiden? YOU OPINION IS INVALID!!!

>>4585218
Raiden and only Raiden.......It was everywhere during the 90s.

>>4585218
>>4585253
Read: >>4584105

>>4584105
but nor did ddp yet you validated it because of the 20 essentially tweaked rip offs that followed? this is why gareggas more important, it gave cave the idea and confidence to have so many bullets and take the reduced hitbox idea further a true step in progression.

>>4581198
You're underestimating how huge Rayforce was in Japan.

>>4585567
I'm not, look at the most recent list: >>4581538
Do you think we should swap V-V and RayForce's places?

>>4585556
We already addressed this. Garegga influenced DDP to have even more bullets, that's true, but it's DDP itself the game that inspired so many others. The mainstream of the genre became DDP, not Garegga's peculiar options, rank, pattern style, bomber style, medals and stuff.
However, I still have Garegga mentioned here in the most current list ITT: >>4581538