/vr/ - Retro Games

I feel legitimately bad for PAL retro game enthusiasts. I've tried emulating the PAL versions of some of my favorite games and the speed difference makes them almost unplayable.

What was up with the fucking 50hz meme?

Did their TVs run at 50 hz?
Is electricity slower in europe?

why would you do this to yourself?

If I were there I'd get (somehow) a 60hz Tv and power adapter.

b-but muh scart rgb

>>4567945
>why was it PAL
Because most games were made for NTSC and then poorly optimized for PAL, if at all.
>>4567949
>>4567991
>I feel legitimately bad for PAL retro game enthusiasts
This is really of no importance today. If I lived in the US for example, I would have to get a PVM to get RGB input and to play PAL-versions of games whose definitive version is in that format. Every single CRT sold since the 90s in a PAL country that I have tested has managed 60hz just fine. One of them, a smaller Sony, couldn't handle the NTSC color space, but that's really of no importance unless I'm playing Famicom since every single other console outputs RGB.

It was really awful how RGB was wasted by no console shipping with a proper SCART cord. It was always an RCA composite cord, coupled with a SCART adapter. I've never seen a single PAL TV with more than one set of RCA ports on the front, so this is completely retarded. The worst case of this is the Xbox and Xbox 360, which came with SCART adapters designed to match the console itself. This is not some off the shelf piece they threw in to save a couple cents, they might as well have shipped an actual RGB SCART cable with it.

>>4567973
In theory, they sacrifice 10 refresh frames for increased vertical resolution.
In reality it was a region locking scheme to protect their own domestic markets by making electronics incompatible with the rest of the world.

>>4567973
>Did their TVs run at 50 hz?
Yes.
>Is electricity slower in europe?
It is because of electricity standards, I don't know the technical details though. You're a big boy, I'm sure you can look it up if you really want to know.
>If I were there I'd get (somehow) a 60hz Tv and power adapter.
Probably not that easy or cheap to do back when it actually mattered. You'd have to import your TV and I think your console too, maybe the games even, and you'd be giving up on using RGB.

>>4567945
I mean, what's the point of this discussion, PAL obviously got the (VERY) short end of the stick. The fact that most games made here sucked also didn't help.
>>4567949
It's the whole reason I stopped getting any old physical game 10+ years ago. Second hand markets here mostly have PAL games, and as if these weren't expensive enough you have to pay extra for shipping if you want them from the Internet.

I own a PAL N64 and F-Zero X and we have a different ladder for time attack since the game is slower and thus takes more time to get to the end of the tracks.

>>4568069
>You'd have to import your TV
If it's the 90s you're talking about, not as long as your TV was relatively recent.
>and I think your console too
Depends on what console. This is really the only con of being a retro game enthusiast in a PAL country that actually matters today. It increases the price of purchase for certain consoles since it limits what you can buy locally. The Playstation and the Nintendo 64 for example is not in any way locked to either NTSC or PAL, it's all decided by software. The Saturn however, is locked to NTSC or PAL, this is especially bad since that console has an internal PSU, so you can't just replace it with a general wall wart that happens to be compatible.
>maybe the games even
The most important part. As mentioned some consoles had all of this decided by software, so if you run a PAL game on a NTSC Playstation for example, the game will run just like it would on a PAL Playstation. If the console is locked to either NTSC or PAL, such as the Super Famicom, the PAL version is gonna play at the wrong speed even on an NTSC console since they usually optimized the games for PAL in some way.
>>4568073
>I own a PAL N64 and F-Zero X
If you have a flash cart for the N64, just play the the Japanese or US version instead. It will run at the correct speed since the console can run in either PAL or NTSC depending on the software.

>>4567945
>borders on screen
One button press on the old remote and the borders are gone, the game looking identical to the NTSC version.
>50Hz
Most games are sped up to compensate.
The Yanks drastically overstate PAL wores. We did get fucked over on some games sure enough, but not near as many as they like to believe.

>>4568042
Italy here, I can only speak for the console I had, but:
NES came boxed with a RF adaptor.
Master System came boxed with a RF adaptor, but EU models had the S-Video output too, and all the cords sold for that were proper SCART cords.
SNES came boxed with a proper SCART cord.
N64 mostly came with an RGB cord and a SCART adapter(much like the 360), but some did have a proper SCART cord(back then some retailers did absurd gymnastics to sell more units so sometimes they imported a few from other EU countries, so i guess that's why some had a SCART cord, but hey, never had issues with that)
PS1 came boxed with an RGB cord + SCART adapter, but proper SCART cords for it were sold everywhere.

>>4568069
I don't remember the exact details, but I do remember that other than electricity standards, 50hz in EU for TVs was a choice also due to how(due to electricity standards, so it always comes to that anyway) B/W TVs were made, keeping the 50hz would have allowed the new color TV transmission signals to be sent on the same channels old B/W standard were, so it could be received by both old B/W TVs and by new color ones, while switching to 60hz(even if it didn't match the standard, it could be done) would have required to set up new transmissions standards that could only be received by new TVs.
The whole thing would have costed a lot more, both for the companies and consumers, than sticking to 50hz.

IIRC, the color transmission being possible on B/W signals too was due to the extra information that could be sent thanks to the FPS being 25 instead of 30 and how the image was generated on CRTs.

>>4568735
I dunno, Anon. Barring Sonic, I've seen a few games that weren't nearly optimized for PAL. I'm sure there's more, but PAL in general was slower unless it got PAL60 or was PAL50 optimized.
It's outright fact that NTSC typically ran at 30FPS and PAL was 25FPS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlfPaVTnW88
Even in games like Altered Beast you could see it.

>>4568735
>The Yanks drastically overstate PAL wores.

so sad to see people still traumatized by the horrors of pal.

>>4567973

AC Electricity in Europe cycles slower (50Hz vs 60Hz), but usually carries twice the voltage.

>>4568934
>Master System came boxed with a RF adaptor
Both master systems and the megadrive 1 came with pic related in the box here.

>>4567973
Higher resolution.
>>4568735
>Most games are sped up to compensate.
Hardly any were optimised. We got fucked repeatedly.

PAL was designed as an improvement to NTSC that also suited the 50hz power standard of Europe.

The trade-off for its lower framerate is a higher resolution. It also fixed the color degradation issues of NTSC. Most of them are to do with long-distance transmission which doesn't include connecting your console to a TV, but I've also noticed PAL game consoles suffer less rainbow banding over composite than NTSC, so I guess there were other improvements in that department.

>>4567949
>>4567945
>be me 10 years old
>been playing megaman 2 on emulator for quite a long time
>loved the musics
>decided to buy an nes to play on tue real thing
>find mm2 on thrift store for like 5€
>:)
>power on the console
>"In the year 20XX..."
>WTF Why are the musics so shit?
>why does megaman runs so fucking slow?
>ask bug bro about it
>It's because of PAL anon
>mfw had the same problem on my snes and megadrive.
>mfw PC-98 enthousiast, yeah kill me

>>4569250
yeah, NTSC was a color standard that was designed to support the existing black and white televisions as well as color sets. it was developed in tandem with how color CRTs were first being figured out and has qualities of being rushed in a sense. PAL came 10 years later, europe was in black and white for another 10 years, and when the PAL standard came out the existing black and white broadcasts could not be supported. PAL was a mess.

Would be a problem if you relied on foreign markets like the yanks did. Good thing Japanese consoles were very unpopular here.

And also there was SECAM.

>>4569334
Isn't SECAM basically PAL though?

>the Hong Kong version of the original Famicom was internally NTSC but had a built-in PAL converter
Why couldn't they just do this on every console instead of fucking around with the internals so the games ran at the wrong speed?!

>>4569264
>>mfw PC-98 enthousiast, yeah kill me
How is this a problem when the PC98 only runs in NTSC since it was pretty much only sold in Japan?

>>4569395
No

>>4569264
>mfw eurofag when games run at 60Hz on my PAL SNES because of the shit i have

>>4569397
>How is this a problem when the PC98 only runs in NTSC
It's a business computer, it doesn't """"run on NTSC"""" it only outputs RGB.

If games are made in PAL territories would they or are they optimized for 60hz?

Do they even have to be?

I ask because some people say that games made in PAL territories are apparently the superior versions.

>>4569789
I always assume that the PAL version of a game made by a studio based in a PAL country is the superior version.

>>4569789
>If games are made in PAL territories would they or are they optimized for 60hz?
Usually not. Maybe if the game was for an American or Japanese publisher.

>>4569940
You’d be wrong.

>>4570064
Yeah, it's not always true, but it's likely a good general rule.

>>4568735

lol, PAL sucks and that's the end of story, faggot

Is there any way to make a PAL PS1 play at 60hz without having to change the console entirely/replace the board?

>>4570215
The PS1 is not locked to NTSC or PAL, so as long as you get past the region locking, you don't have to mod anything else. The signal will be a bit out of spec unless you're using a Net Yaroze due to the oscillators, but that's not gonna make any difference as long as you're using a CRT. There are kits you can buy and install if you want to have an NTSC signal that's closer to spec, but as I said, that's likely not gonna be necessary.

>>4569078
>Adapteur R.V.B
These were only paired with the french RGB versions because the french, retarded as always, decided to use Secam instead of PAL or NTSC which basically forced Sega to release them with RGB.
That's also the reason why there's a French NES with (fake) RGB output.

>>4567945
PAL borders are not that bad. Nice embellishment senpai

Personally I stopped getting PAL consoles/games unless it's Dreamcast which was the first to get a 60/50hz option in-game. However, some games actually took advantage of the extra resolution rather than put borders over them, and as time went on more effort was put into most PAL conversions.

This whole issue is not the fault of the PAL standard but rather the shoddy transfers done by people who clearly did not care. PAL was without a doubt the superior standard for analog TV signals at the time. CRTs are also generally superior in Europe since most of the ones sold in the 90s handle NTSC and PAL60 just fine and have RGB-capable SCART ports which means finding a suitable CRT for vidya is MUCH easier over here.

>>4571847
>However, some games actually took advantage of the extra resolution rather than put borders over them, and as time went on more effort was put into most PAL conversions.
We really need some kind of list on what games are better in PAL. I just run the NTSC version for most games, and run the PAL version if the game was made by a studio in PAL country, but that's not a very good way to select them.

>>4567945
Europe got shit on when it comes to consoles, but they had a pretty nice thing going with PCs back in the 80s.

>>4570238
>retarded as always, decided to use Secam instead of PAL or NTSC
When it comes to color television broadcast, SECAM is superior to both PAL and NTSC. Also, back when the choice was being made, there weren't even stuff like consumer VCR out there yet, so caring about "compatibility" wasn't a thing.
So no, it wasn't a retarded choice in any way.

pal is alright

once i found out what ntsc was i never bothered with pal again, in Australia we had pal with the bonus of not having rgb. ntsc has better control response, better animation with less stuttering and the pal flicker gives me a massive headache. Pal is only better for c64 and amiga.

one advantage of pal is less slowdown, kirbys adventure and contra 3 have terrible slowdown in ntsc that is reduced a lot in pal

aussie here PAL is fucking cancer and there are no redeemable qualities to having a PAL system over NTSC(-J)

the games were optimised to play at 60hz and playing something at 83% speed or playing at 50hz with missing frames to simulate 60hz is not a good experince

import a NTSC nes, they use a standard 9 volt adaptor and games come relatively cheap comapared to the inflated PAL prices you'll find locally

>>4567945
You realize borders are not a PAL thing but a thing of bad ports?

>>4567973
20% less cycle frequence
twice the power

now go make some tea with your electric kettle mr.shitbait

I've gotta say though, as bad as the N64's internal scaler was, Nintendo at least threw Europeans a bone. The N64 can scale any resolution to PAL resolution, which is why OoT and other Nintendo games after it despite not being optimized for PAL at least runs without borders.

Rare actually did real optimization though which is why their PAL versions are the best.

>>4567945
you're a complete clueless jackass that knows nothing about anything.

>>4568073
>PAL obviously got the (VERY) short end of the stick
holy fucking hell. is today international LETS JUST MAKE THINGS UP AS WE GO DAY? incredible. you focus on a handful of crap consoles, forgetting about everything else. what a genius.

>>4568735
the yanks are retarded.

>>4569264
> be you
> making up bullshit stories


>>4569297
>yeah, NTSC was a color standard
it was a great deal more than a colour standard

>>4569395
SECAM is a bullshit standard that should have never been born.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SECAM

>>4570207
sad americans. forever the worlds lamest lamers.

>>4575771
> aussie here
bullshit. ameritard: detected.

>>4575772
what do you really expect from a bunch of idiots that know nothing?

>>4575813
Uh... Are you okay, dude?

>>4575813
point on the doll exactly where the superior format touched you

Sonic the Hedgehog music is so much better in 50hz PAL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BVMXPTBcck

PAL is not so hot with the NES or SNES thanks to their entire libraries being 60fps but once the jump to 3D happened a lot of games had shitty 20-30fps average performance and if it's jumping around below 50 then PAL is generally going to be a lot easier to use than NTSC due to this.

A good example is Goldeneye speedrunners playing half of the levels on PAL and half of them on NTSC depending on which level is laggier with shittier performance (if it's a laggy level you play PAL because it's more stable).

>>4575845
PAL Truxton

>>4575771
>import a NTSC nes
Just get a fucking AV Famicom retard.

>>4567949
TFW I am too autistic just to buy NTSC consoles despite better performance and cheaper games

>>4575813
You sound like a legit autist. I'm Australian and I fucking hate PAL.
I bought a Mega Drive and Sonic 1 last week. First time I've played it on real hardware since I was 10. I've soldered like twice in my life but I just ordered parts to install a region switch on it because the slowdown is fucking depressing. Now I just have to find a TV that can take RGB scart. Which is also a fucking pain in the ass because I'm in Australia btw.

>>4575813
Is this an actual example of the "autistic screeching" I see mentioned?

>>4567945
>leaving out the home computer scene of PAL Countries

>>4575813
>i have no fucking idea what i'm talking about, or even what the thread topic is, but i'm european and everyone who doesn't agree with me is american
Imagine being so obsessed with /pol/ shitposting that you do this on every board you post on, regardless of the topic. Everything, no matter whether or not you even know what it is, has to be reduced to nationalism.