/vr/ - Retro Games

>>4562002
Check Doom's release date. The only one of those that came before is Ultima Underworld and is not really the same kind of game at all.

>>4562002

I guess it was, I was never too impressed with it when I was a kid though. The full 3D was neat and all, but I enjoyed the build-games far more.

>>4562002

>>4562002
"Revolutionary" has nothing to do with quality. Doom changed EVERYTHING.

That said, I also legit think it's still the best FPS ever made.

And THAT said, I also like the other games that you listed as well.

>>4562002
Yes. It was. Check out some of the shooters that were released before doom, they're terribly primitive, whereras Doom still holds up.

>>4562002
>I preferred DN3D's
you realize duke3d came out around the time quake did right?

>>4562450
>Doom changed EVERYTHING
Not Wolfenstein 3D?

>>4562504
for some reason, Wolfenstein didn't hit as hard as Doom did. I never played either, at the time, so I couldn't tell you what the differences were. I just know that Doom became an instant legend and was the single best reason to own a PC, over a console.

>>4562510
I didn't play on PC either (and still never played Doom...), but apparently Doom had multiplayer and did let users create content.

>>4562504

While wolfenstein 3d technically has everything there to qualify as an FPS, it doesn't have any of the things that actually makes an FPS fun

>>4562510
wolfenstein has awful level design, the maint hing that makes doom fun is the levels
I'm interested in trying out Spear of Destiny, maybe they figured out level design by then. either way they figured something out by the time they released Doom, that's for sure

>>4562504
No, not Wolf
Orthogonal levels with no height variation nor floor textures wasn't as much of a technical milestone as the leap to Doom

>>4562002

Quake didn't have fuck all in the way of interactivity. Find keys, kill monsters, open doors, go to exit.

In BUILD games you could ride trains, drive tanks, blow up whole buildings, use CCTV monitors, etc. etc. etc.

There was just such a wide variety of scenarios possible in BUILD engine games that couldn't be done in Quake without extensive modding.

>>4562010
Pathways into Darkness came before Doom too though.
Part UltimaUnderworld-very-lite, part Halo-precursor (as checkpoint-based shooter), the combat in particular was and still is unique for the genre (the only other game that's somewhat similar to it combat-wise is Doom3). There was plot, there were puzzles, the gameplay shifted very noticeably with each and every level (the only one who was trying to shift Doom's gameplay from level to level in the same manner was Petersen, and the differences between his levels weren't nearly as pronounced as in PiD's). Despite being in 30fps (Doom was 35), it felt and moved very smooth. In case you didn't really know what you were doing, it was also tough as nails.
It really was a really good game, and a worthy contender to Doom1. Despite having a weaker engine (no verticality, although it could support up to something like 600x450) and the shittiest excuse for the sound (although the sound was more like for emphasizing the silence, which quickly became Really Fucking Unnerving, and contributed a lot to the overall atmosphere). It's a shame pretty much nobody played it.

For me though, Pathways into Darkness, Cybermage and arguably HeXen 1 are like the holy triad of more or less underdog 90s FPS games.

>>4562002
> I preferred DN3D's gameplay
Oh come on, the only thing good about that hitscanfest were AllenBlum's levels.
>>4562510
I'd argue, that of Hovertank3D (basically, Battlezone: Tom Hall edition), Catacomb3D and Wolf3D, the latter was BY FAR the shittiest game, even if the longest. It did good in terms of popularity because
1) muh optimization, muh 70fps cap, EVERYTHING was sacrificed for speed
2) OMG GORE NAZIS GORE BLOODY BOSS DEATHS
3) the title, "Wolfenstein", well, a lot of folks still remembered it from Castle Wolfenstein and Beyond Castle Wolfenstein (which were ported to near everything in their time) at the time Wolf3D came out
Meaning, Wolf3D became popular simply because of its PRESENTATION (and well, giving up a whole episode for free, due to being shareware distribution spearhead at the time), nothing else.

>>4562002
>I don't like this game therefore it has no importance in history

>>4562651
>hitscanfest
only pig cops and battlelords have hitscan attacks

>>4562905
oh forgot about the lizard guys but they're easy to kill

>>4562504
>>4562510
>>4562547
>>4562590
Wolfenstein 3-D was a bigger deal than this thread is making it out to have been, but it didn't have as much influence as Doom. It WAS influential though and it DID start the FPS craze. But it was Doom that made it a really big thing.

>>4562002
Watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v_0HD7iOz4

1. Realistic graphics for the time
2. One of the first and most popular licensed engines
3. Massive multiplayer appeal
4. Made mods popular
5. Open source code

I wouldn't really say it was revolutionary. I feel like its atmosphere alone makes it one of the greatest first person shooters though.

>>4562002
All the games that you listed are inspired by doom right
in our childhood I also liked dn3d the most and my bro liked blood the most we didn't like doom but I can imagine if it wasn't for doom they wouldn't have existed

>>4562002
Doom pretty much invented (or finalized inventions from Wolf 3D):
>3D level design - it was the first game to have 3D level that you could freely roam in and in which height was used extensively; tricks like allowing player to quickly drop back down from a higher position to skip backtracking, adding new different enemies on the way back when backtracking - every 3D game that isn't entirely on-rails owes some legacy to Doom.
>Modding - Doom was designed with modders in mind as a strategy for longevity. If you look at doom general, I guess it worked pretty damn well.
>Weapons - few people remember that but before Doom/Wolf, the idea of getting permanent weapons that however have limited ammo, and once you run out you can use them again if you find more ammo - was close to nonexistent, and even in games that had that like Super Metroid, it was reserved for special weapons rather than used for all weapons. And the specific flow idea where ammo was primarily an in-world item left by the level designers rather than a random drop from enemies was pretty much invented by Doom. And I don't need to point out that Doom arsenal became an iconic basis for arsenal of every single shooter that followed it.
>Projectile/hitscan/melee - 90% of modern action game divide enemies into the same attack types Doom invented.
>Enemy sight - Doom and Wolf invented the idea that enemies don't react to you until you cross a certain line, that would become the groundwork for scripting triggers now used in pretty much all 3D games. In 2D games, enemies usually simply reacted to you when you were on screen speaking of which...
>Active/reactive AI - before, in 2D days, enemies simply recreated a canned behaviour loop - walk right, turn around, walk left. They didn't actively react to player presence in any way. However, Doom and Wolf invented AI that will actively pursue player, and target them while attacking, and can even fight other monsters from friendly fire.
(1/2) Cont...

>>4565258
>>4562002
(2/3) Cont -
>While this AI system is simplistic by modern standards, by standards of 92/93, it was a mindblowing masterpiece that paved way for all other AI systems in action games.
>Health system - Doom's health system, just like it's ammo system put the amount of health player can get back into the hands of the level designer. Before, health refills randomly dropped from enemies (in some games like Metroid, player was even expected to grind to get health back( - and if they were actually put into levels, they were extremely rare secrets like chicken in Castlevania, or E-Tanks in Megaman. Doom invented the medkit, and changed the way we think about health in action games forever. It also created damaging floors, creating an innovative idea that sometimes, damage is unavoidable and health becomes a limited resource you should manage. At the time of arcade games where 'fair' meant "you can perfect run this", it was a mindblowing change.
>De facto invention of 3D shooter - while Doom was far from first FPS technically (games like Battlezone and Midi Maze precede it), Doom invented the idea of FPS as a single-player experience with a story and a campaign. It also codified many ideas and concepts that you will now find in most shooters, be it first or third person.
>Texture mapped real-time 3D - while heavily hacked together on an almost 2.5D engine, Doom was the first game to create convincing 3D spaces with variable heights and ceilings at an acceptable framerate (no, Ultima Underworld silky smooth ~10 FPS is not 'acceptable').
>Horror - while to us Doom isn't very scary, at the time Doom was an extremely tense experience at the time thanks to, at the time, unparalleled immersion thanks to first person perspective. Together with Alone in the Dark, Doom gave rise to the survival horror genre, and it's tiny brother - the horror shooter (FEAR, Left4Dead, Dead Space 2)
(Cont...)

>>4565260
>>4562002
(Cont. 3/3)
>Engine-led development - to us, if we want to know technical aspects of the game, out first question is 'what engine it's running on?" but in the early 90s that was a completely new concept. Most games had a completely unique engine designed specifically for it - even Mega Man NES games have significant differences between their engines, despite being so similar. Doom and Wolf ended that, and created idea of licensing engines that would dominate the industry. Every game created on third-party engine - Source, Quake or Unity - owes some existence to Doom. Speaking of which...
>Source ports. Doom was the very first game to have proper source ports, and one of the first games to go open source. Nowaday the practice of releasing source ports of old games is relatively common - and it's all thanks to doom.
>Online multiplayer - while Doom was hardly the first multiplayer shooter (Maze War and Midi Maze precede it), it was the first POPULAR multiplayer shooter. Doom solidified the idea that games should have (competitive, not only local co-op) multiplayer modes in addition to single-player.
>PC gaming - Doom was the tipping point where consoles stopped outperforming PCs from technical standpoint (thanks to all that sweet spreadsheet CPUs being used for 3D), and they never really caught up since then. Love it or hate it - that happened because of Doom.
>Speedrunning - last but not least, while Doom didn't strictly invent these too - it cemented the idea and brought it from realm of gimmicks from one game (Metroid) and popularized it by giving an actual timer telling you your time - and a par time to which beginners can strive for. Together with demos, Doom really kicked off the speedrunning scene.


I might've missed some stuff, so tell me if I did.

>>4562651
Wolf3D is a great game. The problem is that it's not an action game - it's an action-adventure dungeon crawler.
If you like dungeon crawlers, and like exploring mazes, finding secrets, and drawing your own maps - Wolf will be an amazing game.
If not, stay away from it cause you're going to hate it.

I still think combat in Wolf is amazing because it's pretty tactical (well, by 92 standards) - you can sneak up on enemies and stealth kill them with a knife; you need to carefully use cover and corners; you need to know all the exits of a room or you're gonna get yourself flanked.
Sure, mutants were slightly unfair, but they only appeared in one episode out of 6 available, so no big deal IMO.

>>4562645
>It's a shame pretty much nobody played it.

maybe it's because it looks like shit

>>4563140

Ultima Underworld came out before Wolfenstein 3D and Daggerfall wasn't really influenced by Doom, it was influenced by Tabletops, books, and I think UU

>>4565290
i'd wager it had more to do with the fact that it was a Macintosh game released during a period when the home Macintosh market was a fucked-apart dead thing

>>4562645
>Despite being in 30fps (Doom was 35),
doom was designed around a 1/35th second clock tic but actual framerate wasn't fixed, it was WILDLY variable depending on your cpu / coprocessor / cache / bus / random mystery factors

>>4565278
Mutants also appeared in Spear of Destiny, IIRC.

>>4565258
>>4565260
>>4565263

Spot on

When I began playing DOOM back in 1994 on our 486/66 (with a whopping 8MB of ram) it was so far ahead of everything else at the time. Though I eventually mostly played PS1 when it launched a year later, I still remember how much fun I had with Doom.

>>4565290
>can the player be even more fucked.gif
More like it looks intentionally grotesque/silly/nonsensical, colors clashing and whatnot, and it's actually a theme in this game. Well, one of the themes.
Those stray black pixels on the spritework, from the outer linings that haven't been fully cleaned out, DO look like trash though.
Also, the first version didn't have ceilings and floors (it was like Wolf3D in that regard) and, to tell you the truth, I like it better than the second edition. For one, this is a pretty nerve-wracking game, and those ceilings and floors make it seem even more claustrophobic, than it already is.

>>4566631
>it looks intentionally grotesque/silly/nonsensical, colors clashing and whatnot, and it's actually a theme in this game

are you saying the terrible graphics are intentional

>>4566817
I am saying that it doesn't even look all that terrible to me, and that the nonsense/absurd/random quality of the graphical style is actually supported in the in-game texts (descriptions of the magical items, for example; conversations with the dead in general for a more farfetched example).

>>4566817
Also, keep in mind, that having up to THIS resolution, fair and square, no scaling, in 1993 at constant 30fps was no small feat, and, when compared to Doom or Wolf3D (not to mention UUW), this game had, at least, the crispness the overall picture going for it.

http://culture.vg/reviews/videogame-art/not-art-doom.html

>>4566831
>>4566841
You're still salty about buying a Mac back then aren't you

>>4567493
I have only played this game in 10s, via emulation (I did complete both demos as well, since they had unique levels). Still loved it.
Marathon though I did NOT like at all. Well, the second one was sort of interesting story-wise, but that's it.

>>4566541
Yeah, maybe, I didn't play SoD.

The trick with mutants is if they're fair or unfair depends mostly on the level designer, while all other enemies are absolutely fair in any situation - e.g. even if SS is placed right behind a door facing you, you can still stunlock him if you open fire immediately. That isn't true of the mutants, sadly.

>>4566541
Yeah, maybe, I didn't play SoD.

The trick with mutants is if they're fair or unfair depends mostly on the level designer, while all other enemies are absolutely fair in any situation - e.g. even if SS is placed right behind a door facing you, you can still stunlock him if you open fire immediately. That isn't true of the mutants, sadly, as they CAN be placed in ways that screw you over, and player has to be extremely careful. The fact that they don't announce their presence was probably a mistake.

>>4565290
>>4566631
>>4566817
>>4566841

Yeah, I can kind of see what they're going for. Like, the thing is that designs and colors aren't terrible - red/purple/blue is not a bad color scheme, and some of these monsters look kinda interesting. However, it's clear that artist wasn't familiar with whatever software they were using to draw this.
Antialiasing sprites into black is a BAD idea that could've worked in a 2D sidescroller like Metroid with a pitch-black background, but here's it's a mistake.

Looking at this, I suddenly understand what a bullet did developers of Doom dodge by photographing toys and clay figurines for their sprites.

Kinda makes me want to make a remake of this game on the GZDoom engine with better spritework.

Does anyone know where you can get it? Because if I do it I need to, well, play it for research, obviously.

>>4567914
It's a fairly complex (not to mention large) game, that's very different from Doom mechanics-wise (not to mention all the inventory/artifact fuckery and specific per-level gimmicks). I don't think it'll translate to GZDoom all that well, to be honest.
Regardless, here is the link:
http://macintoshgarden.org/games/pathways-darkness
68k (1.x, no floors&ceilings textures) version is emulated via BasiliskII.
PowerPC (2.x, floors&ceilings textures) version is emulated via SheepShaver (really unstable, compared to BasiliskII).
And for the modern port you need a correspondingly modern Mac.

There are also two demo-versions, each has levels, that don't appear in the final game.
They can be downloaded here: http://pid.bungie.org/
Demo Version A1 is 68k and, as such, emulatable via BasiliskII. Although it's somewhat shit due to levels themselves not being all that interesting. It was also made before savepoints were implemented, and it rather has manual saves (and they don't really suit this game).
Demo v2.0 is for PowerPC macs and, as such, is emulatable via SheepShaver. Now, THIS demo is at least as good as any part of the final game, and I really do recommend it.

>>4567950
Oh yeah, also, read the manual.
Also, the game folder (or the manual?) has the bomb arming code you'll need for completion of the game.
Also, strafes are on Z and X, and are indispensable (and yep, this game is best played keyboard-only).
Also, you can resize the window with the game viewport by dragging its lower right corner.

>>4562002
Wolfenstein was the Meatloaf to metal, Doom was the Ozzy osbourne

>>4568385
Good analogy