/vr/ - Retro Games

>>4552152
Nes version sure.

no
in its defense, there wasn't really an FF "formula" yet and they tried some new things

>>4552156
What is the Final Fantasy "formula"?

>>4552152
No, but it's a good one. Incredibly ambitious game on the NES, and the newer versions that polish it up are decently good.

Are we now pretending FF2 is a good game?
Holy shit.

>>4552152
No, it's really not. The leveling system was implemented in a pretty dumb way. However I think it was very ambitious and was an interesting way to go about it in theory.

All that said, I love the GBA version of this on Dawn of Souls. I like the story and I really dig the keyword system. The extra content and dungeons added are cool too. I would definitely suggest it to anyone who had played the rest of the series but who was unsure about this one... Just as long as they know what they're getting into first and the best ways to go about dealing with the leveling system.

I don't see any reason to play the NES version itself except simply for those wanting to experience the game as it was very first released.

>>4552320
Have you played it for more than 10 minutes? Best story and characters of any 2d ff for starters, even if you loathe the progression system. Have you played ff1? A great game, its dungeons were one giant open map after another you had to wander in. Ff2 has carefully designed dungeons that feel modern and are not tight corridors like some later entries. It also has a number of unique features for the thinking rpg player. It's frankly a masterpiece.

>>4552332
Spotted the underage. Definitive version is ps1 origins. Wonderswan version is same, but controls are much faster, however the wonderswan screen is horrible to play on. All PSP Square ports manage to be a travesty. Nearly all games are made more shallow/easier for babby. Nes version is even better because of more limited inventory, but i think that's an acceptable trade for the bug fixes.

>>4552357
I am 31. I just don't like the PS1 version and I like the extra content in the GBA version. Everyone shits on the FF GBA games but I love all of them and I really like the new stuff they add.

I've played roms of the Wonder Swan versions of 1 and 2 but I played through all the FFs on my GBA back when they were released and will always prefer them over the other remakes.

>>4552280
Edgy teen characters, linear maps, and classes with some degree of freedom.
>>4552332
Dawn of souls all the way.

>>4552152
I would not say that. For a start, because from many points of view (map, mechanics, pacing) is not perfect. And then, because is barely a popular entry.

But it's my favourite. I like the characters and plot in this game. I don't like when anime goes with over the top characters that appeals to teenagers, which is what i feel has been happening since 4. And combat is not really my favourite aspect of jrpgs, they are always repetitive with little to zero incentive to tactics. If i want to play for the combat, i play Fire Emblem, or Shining Force, or any other srpg.

>>4552340
I've beaten that game.
>Ff2 has carefully designed dungeons that feel modern and are not tight corridors like some later entries.
All those empty rooms that are just to bait you into random encounters. Great design.

FF2 had great ideas, but it's very lacking in excecution.

>>4552152
nah, it's pretty unbalanced. If you know how it works and which stats and spells are the most important, you'll steamroll tge game
if you don't know what you're doing you'll most likely ragequit the game at some point

I still like it though, no other game in the franchise makes me feel like I've earned my strength like this one
it's really satisfying

>>4552479
Well what I was probably going to get around to was to say that Final Fantasy II cemented what future sequels of the series will be like. Some mechanical changes from job systems, materia, sphere grids, and so on, to turn based, ATB, then eventually going into action based, and so on. It doesn't seem like a series that sticks to "its roots" thematically varying mechanically on different fronts outside of being a JRPG.

So what's the best 2D FF, /vr/?

>>4552480
>empty rooms
><s>great design</s>
I'm so fucking tired of hearing this shit.
You play the game, you Learn where the rooms are.
Perhaps draw maps.
Everyone whining because FF2 makes them work a little. Fuck off cunts.

>>4553950
1. It epitomizes everything I expect and love from a JRPG.

>>4553950
5 > 3 > 1 > 4 > 2 > 6

>>4554032
Same, except that that basically means "it plays like a streamlined western RPG"

>>4552152
3 is the best but 2 is a close second.

>>4553950
5

>>4552357
Anon, less convenience and QoL towards you as a player aren't a bad thing.

>Nes version is even better because of more limited inventory
It's like you hate good design and convenience towards you.

>>4552479
I agree with everything and I share your hatred towards anime but anon, FF got anime with 7.
Up until 6 it still was neutrally decent.

>>4554042
Spotted the fucking contrarian.

>>4554305
I got my post mixed up.
I wanted to say "MORE convenience and QoL features towards you as a player aren't a bad thing".

>>4554308
5 was basically a Shonen anime.

>>4554019
I'm not whining, but if a dungeon has multiple doors that lead to empty rooms, that's not "carefully designed dungeons"
Drawing a map doesn't make it more fun nor does it help. If I go to an empty room once, I'm not doing that again.

>>4552340
>best story
>woe is me, everybody interesting die a senseless death and we're trying to do another rebels vs evil empire but like really dark and stuff.

>best characters
>boring cardboard cutouts that sakaguchi don't even bother trying to flesh them out much. but hey, the big guy can talk to beavers

>carefully designed
>implying getting baited to an empty room, spawn in the middle then getting thrown monsters at for not being psychic is fun
>implying making an open overworld but filling the places you aren't supposed to go yet with monsters a whole levels stronger than you is fun
>implying the broken level up system where it is wholly abusable is a careful design

it's just shit m8

>>4553950
>>4554042
4>5>1>6>3>2
7>12>9>10>13>8>15

>>4554305
And more QoL takes me out of the world. Being able to pick up everything in the world between four characters is something that's less enjoyable to me. It's perfectly reasonable to accept that your party isn't capable of carrying everything in existance. That little bit of realism and challenge of managing your inventory is something undoubtably lost when streamlining games for the entertainment of the masses.

Throw that together with QoL for almost every aspect of a game and you have an inferior, dumbed-down release.

>>4554716
I guess you hit yourself with a knife IRL too whenever your party is attacked and walk barefooted everywhere.
Surely you cripple yourself at everything IRL.

https://blog.eu.playstation.com/2018/01/30/the-best-final-fantasy-games-as-chosen-by-the-franchises-creators/
Kawazu is right as usual.

>>4552152
No, but it is the best NES title. FF2 is a great game, I was really blown away after ignoring all the memes and playing it for myself.

>muh empty rooms
If you weren't a casual you'd know that this was standard RPG fair around that time. It doesn't excuse it, but still.

>>4553950
>Because lightning is my waifu
My feelings on XIII are mixed but Jesus Christ, is that all he could say about it?

>>4555512
>it has the best battle system
he cleary never played ffx-2

>>4555569
It actually makes sense in some games, like Wizardry where there's no overworld and only 1 huge dungeon, with a very low random encounter rate, so you can just go to the 'encounter' rooms to get encounters. But in a game liek FF2 which already has a really high encounter rate in dungeons and finding ecounters to fight isn't really the purpose of the dungeon, it was definitely vestigial in that game. Still a good game though. Actually FF2 (origins version) was the first Final Fantasy game I completed

>>4555569
>If you weren't a casual you'd know that this was standard RPG fair around that time. It doesn't excuse it, but still.
it's not like it's a first person dungeon crawler

it fucking teleports you in the middle too which makes no sense

>>4555503
What a dumb attempt at a retort. Whatever, dude. Enjoy your multiepisode cinematic release of FF7.

>>4552152

Yeah unless you're a bitch ass nigga

>>4553950

V. IV is the worst

>>4555512

>Everyone else talks about gameplay, music and story
>Motomu Toriyama likes XIII best because of Lightning

Pure cancer

>>4555512
>Missing Ito, Sakaguchi and Uematsu
meh

>>4553950
5
6 is too overrated and mos of the fanbase are repressed 7fags who suddenly hate 7 because "It's overrated", when really they want to seem cool by pretending 6 was some obscure as fuck game and treating that as the best, when really, they're too scared to try something more archaic and figure that 6 is the safe zone where it's "The most like Playstation FF". 6 is pretty great though, but I hate how smug the fanbase is, it's like the good majority are just 7fags trying to distance themselves with 7 to look cool.

>>4554589
>woe is me
The fuck you talkin' about?

>>4555913
This. 6 started the nu-FF trend where story and narrative matters more than gameplay. It's also broken as fuck and one of the least fun FFs to play because of all the exploits.

1,3,5 are the holy trinity of FF, as envisioned by our lord and savior Sakaguchi.

>>4555512
Shoot, that is my favorite Final Fantasy as well.

2 had a whole bunch of wasted potential. Also, fists are better than any weapon, even better than the hype train mythril weapons.

>>4552152
It’s certainly underrated but 3 is better
As far as NES
SNES is much better as a whole

>>4554349
>Drawing a map doesn't make it more fun
We are clearly not the same person.

>>4555992
you need to sacrifice your shield, evasion and agility to use fists, which makes them totally not worth it
having someone use berserk is much better

>>4556112
Fists don't outclass anything, except during the early stages of the game when they make grinding easier. Weapons can have elemental and status modifiers that fists can't, and late-game weapons have more total attack power than maxed out fists.

>>4555992
>you need to sacrifice your shield, evasion and agility to use fists
You don't have to sacrifice your evasion. Evasion can be boosted by grinding just like any other stat. Once it's high enough, you no longer need shields. Equipping heavy armor is the only thing that kills your evasion.

Also, Blink is OP. Just cast it at the start of battle and nothing can hit your party ever again.

>>4556136
>You don't have to sacrifice your evasion [with fists]

You're on a disconnect, dude. Fists sacrifice your evasion [bonuses]. You get neither the 1% per level evasion bonus from other weapons nor the eva. boost of a shield.

The formula for agility gain is (Eva/4)~chances out of 255 die roll every battle.

Start a character off using only fists and witness him or her always be last in evasion.

While we're at it, what is the proper ranking of the FF Legends, Romancing SaGa, and SaGa Frontier games?

>>4556202
RS2 > RS3 > RS1 > SF2 > SF1 > FFLIII > FFLII > FFLI

>>4556202
Romancing SaGa: Minstrel Song > Romancing SaGa 2 > SaGa Frontier > Final Fantasy Legend II > Final Fantasy Legend > Unlimited Saga > Final Fantasy Legend III > SaGa Frontier 2

>>4556172
>Fists sacrifice your evasion [bonuses]
Anon, go back and read my post before replying. If you grind enough, you don't need evasion boosts from weapons or shields. It's possible to have enough natural evasion that it doesn't matter what you equip, except maybe heavy armor.

>The formula for agility gain is (Eva/4)~chances out of 255 die roll every battle.
No idea about that, but equipping shields and using them does boost your agility. Equipping two shields and 'attacking' with them does it even faster. You can also cast Blink on yourself to achieve similarly fast growth. If you're feeling lucky, you might get some agility growth from casting Swap.

>>4556046
I drew maps for Dragon Quest, since it makes sense.
In FF2 you have a bigger view of the place, thus making drawing a map pointles. Unless you get lost like super easily.

>>4555913
>6 is too overrated
>mos of the fanbase are repressed 7fags who suddenly hate 7 because "It's overrated"

Are you a repressed 6fag?

>>4555954
>story and narrative matters more than gameplay.
If there are more people interested in that aspect, under what circunstance can you claim is not a valid criterion to evaluate jrpgs?

>>4556202
SF > saga2 > saga1 > RS2 > SF2 > RS3

>>4552152
Love the game and had tons of fun playing It. Had to search for info about character Build.

Is there any game out there similar to FF2?

>>4556934
The SaGa series is pretty much an evolution of Final Fantasy 2's gameplay.

There's Romancing Saga Minstrel Song that's the most refined game in the franchise. It's a remake of RS1 and may very well spoil your experience with the other games since it does everything so right. Assuming it's the right game for you, it's a wonderful fucking experience, from the artstyle to the gameplay to the music and quests.

RS2 has an official release and though I've never finished it, it's such an interesting game. You fund your kingdom's magic R&D for example, and a game over just means another generation takes after you, you're expected to die.

RS3 has a bad fan translation but it's good enough. It's no doubt about to get an official release in the west the same way RS2 did. There's a new fan translation in the works but last I heard the people behind it were putting it on hold so as to not compete with the official translation or some shit.

SaGa Frontier feels cheap and ran into budget issues leaving empty areas that were meant to be quests. It's almost depressing, since the potential is there. Phenomenal atmosphere and setting, with unique and interesting character scenarios.

SF2 - meh.

Unlimited Saga is a parody of a Kawazu game.

The FF Legend games are decent but I've never finished them. There's 3D remakes of 2 and 3 on the DS that look pretty nifty. There's a Wonderswan Color release of FFL1 with a translation if you can't stomach the B&W.

>>4556934
well not really, not even the SaGa games work like FF2, raising stats depends on what kind of weapons you use instead of the actions you take during combat

actually, there's a NES RPG called Last Armageddon which has an almost identical level system
the translation is really bad though

>>4556786
No, I'm just pissed all the smug shits who only like 6 to distance themselves from 7, when really just about all they rant about with 7 were issues that also happened in 6 and a couple previous.

>>4557103
What happened to you that you think that people are only PRETENDING to like a game to "get back" at another? Holy fucking shit. I mean, I'm sure people like that exist but there's no way that there's that many autists in the FFVI fanbase.

In every FF thread I see discussion about 6fags that hate on 7 for "issues that also happened in 6" but in actuality boogeyman comments like that are far more frequent than these supposed 7 naysayers who seem to only exist on YouTube comment threads. Even then, the latter is most likely just saying that shit for thumbs.

Any one who's actually played the games and don't hold them as part of their """identity""" would recognize VII as one of the better all-rounder titles in contrast to VI which stumbles on its gameplay.

>>4555913

first i ever played was 4, i thought it was absolute shit. Then i played 6, loved it to death, yeah it's broken and easy, but i loved everything else about it. To this day still has my favorite cast of characters. The game isn't perfect, the world of ruin was implimented poorly and i hate hoe the story seems to just end there, but it makes up for it by providing new challenge (albeit with no specific order and no indication of which way the difficulty curve is supposed to go. I got 7 when it came out and thought it was the biggest pile of crap with the ultra emo characters, shit attempt to put sprite like 3d models into scratchy pre-rendered backgrounds, and a villain that didn't even hold a candle to the ankles of kefka.

Anyway back on topic. I always thought 2 was interesting, while i think it's the second to worst 2D ff, i like that it's different. I can never seem to play it for very long and tend to drop it not too long after i try playing it again, but it at least recatches my interest from time to time.

for me it's 6>5>3>1>2>4

i can't understand for the life of me why square is constantly remaking 4 and trying to convince me it's legendary. I dont care if it was the first to use atb, the gameplay is dull and slow, the characters are smouldering shit, the story is completely retarded and angsty and every time i've played and finished it i've felt woefully unsatisfied. It's the only old ff where i've felt like i've accomplished nothing when it's over.

>>4558037
funny, I like IV (especially on DS) and think VI is utterly boring shit and I can't understand why it gets its dick sucked so much when I can barely make it to WoR before dropping it
terra and celes are both whiny, melodramatic unlikable bitches, the cast is bloated, the villain is shit, way too many party split ups, broken as all hell etc.
I even prefer II over it

3 is the most forgettable but I have fond memories of the remake, being one of the very first ds games

6 feels like a broken prototype

the rest are pretty good imo

>>4557073
>>4557079

Thanks

3 is my favorite, followed by 1
any game with 4 young boy heroes is after my heart espeically if I get to name them

>Is this the best 2D FF?
I think so, but I'm regularly accused of being a hipster, so I doubt anyone will take me seriously. I would nonetheless be obliged to explain my reasoning if anyone actually cared.

>but it's so breakable!
Every FF game is breakable. That's not a valid criticism unless game breaking becomes unavoidable. Which may very well happen during casual playthroughs of FF6. You'd have to go out of your way to break FF2. If that's not your play-style, then just don't do it.

>>4558438
I would be interested in hearing why you like it so much anon.

>>4558438
>Every FF game is breakable.
I feel like III and IV are the only ones that aren't

>>4558454
3 lets you stack protect buffs until you only take 1 damage from anything, including the final boss. Protect raises both physical and magic defense in that game. Haste also stacks.

>>4558451
>I would be interested in hearing why you like it so much anon.
The freedom to develop your characters any way you want, basically. Skills don't get locked behind huge AP walls or require significant plot advancements like finding crystals. Instead of wasting time developing your characters in classes you don't really care about, you can start specializing right away. You can even trek on over to Mysidia and get the best late-game spells right from the start. Well, after hours of grinding to survive the journey to Mysidia. But there aren't any plot walls to stop you from doing it.

I also like that the plot and setting aren't a convoluted mess of fanfic tier characters and twists. It would have been nice to have some exposition about the emperor's motives, but there was a later novelization that did a fair job.

>>4558501
Do you think the how the systems interact in the earlier versions, particularly stat decrease to counteract making god characters affects it heavily? I know a lot of the complaints is that the system itself is counter-intuitive and almost seemingly random to what promotes growth to new players. I.E. Magic user needs to cast magic, however, MP is a limited resource so they must attack, meaning they much risk lowering their main offensive stat unless the player grinds heavily or min-maxes MP growth.

>>4558501
>Instead of wasting time developing your characters in classes you don't really care about, you can start specializing right away. You can even trek on over to Mysidia and get the best late-game spells right from the start.

I didn't consider that since II has so low exposition. Do you think people do that? Planning since the beggining where to go and how much to grind to 'start' the adventure with the right set of spells?

>>4558472
oh I didn't realize this, that's useful to know
although the spellcharge system prevents the spells to be spammed that much, I guess it is kinda broken
guess that only leaves 4

>>4552479
>Edgy teen characters
The protagonist of FF2 is literally a teenager with the edgy name Firion.

>>4558736
Stat decreases are so rare that they're negligible. The only way you're going to reduce a stat by any substantial amount is if you neglect to use it entirely, such as focusing exclusively on physical attacks and never casting a single spell over the course of the game, in which case you'll probably end up with 1 point of INT.

>I know a lot of the complaints is that the system itself is counter-intuitive
I've never heard this before, probably because it's not the case. When you cast magic, your INT goes up as well as your total MP. MP on average does increase by a fair amount. The first time it increases, you're probably going to gain more than twice the amount of initial MP you started the game with.

Everything is intuitive. Whack enemies with weapons to increase your STR, suffer damage to increase HP and VIT, avoid attacks to increase AGI, etc. AGI seems to give people the most trouble because you need high EVA to gain more AGI. Really all you have to do is equip shields.

>>4559257
>Do you think people do that?
Many RPGs prompt you to select or customize your party's class and race at the very start of the game. This isn't really a different concept. FF2 just allows you to specialize however you want as opposed to being locked into rigid class roles that can never do anything more than what they're designed to do. So if you get tired of having Maria be a caster, simply deck her out with better equipment and start physically attacking shit until her stats catch up. There's no way to choose a 'wrong' party setup since you can switch your tactics around as much as you want.

>>4560448
>The protagonist of FF2 is literally a teenager with the edgy name Firion.
That was only in the English translation. The original Famicom version didn't give any of the characters names. Names were later retrofitted from the game's novelization, in which Firion was called Frioniel

>>4560705
>AGI seems to give people the most trouble because you need high EVA to gain more AGI. Really all you have to do is equip shields.
yeah most people just see they can dual wield and never think it would have consequences, then then they put all three characters in the front line
I've seen people make this mistake loads of times. Part of them makes it to the deist caverns, get btfo'd by the giants, then ragequit and cal the game shit
the other part somehow reaches the mysidian tower, get btfo'd by the imps with Lv. 16 Muddle, then ragequit and call the game shit


the biggest fix this game needs is reducing magic level grinding
If my Maria has 60 int, a new black magic spell should start at level 10 or something, not level 1, she's not a retard anymore
Imagine if you had to level up each weapon individually instead of just weapon classes, Jesus

that, and rebalancing evasion and defense

>>4561082
>Imagine if you had to level up each weapon individually instead of just weapon classes, Jesus
Kawazu got you covered
>>4548478

>>4561181
oh righ I forgot, and the weapon lost all its abilities if you unequipped it

>>4561186
>and the weapon lost all its abilities if you unequipped it
False.

>>4561483
welp, my Gray had 21 falcon slash uses and 10 whirlwind uses on his iron sword, I unequipped it and equipped it again and all his skills were gone
so yeah, you're wrong

>>4552479
>>4554308
>>4554325
>I don't like when anime goes with over the top characters that appeals to teenagers, which is what i feel has been happening since 4.

explain

>>4561521
Ok, I just tested and you're right. Sorry, it's been a long time since I played it.

whats the best version to play

>>4561643
Why not play the game for yourself and find out. What's 'best' is highly subjective, because not everybody agrees with the changes made to later ports of the game.

>>4561685
I dont really have the patience for nes rpgs anymore
dragon quest 4 was a slog, but somehow still better than the DS version kek

>>4552152
I personally thought FFII was by far the worst Final Fantasy game, not even the new games come close.
But it's always better to like something than not like something I guess.

>>4561643
Dawn of souls.
>>4561554

>>4561778
>I dont really have the patience for nes rpgs anymore
Then you probably won't like FF2. The remakes make grinding go a little more quickly, but they don't change much else about the core gameplay. I suppose I could give you a quick run down of some of the differences though.

>Famicom
If you're familiar with the large amount of bugs FF1 NES has, FF2 on Famicom is a similar ordeal since it was handled by the same programmer. Some mechanics aren't coded at all, like dual-wielding damage. It's still playable, but you're not really getting the whole picture.

>PS1
This seems to be based on the original game's design documentation, so it's a very faithful adaption. The translation isn't 100% accurate, but it's exceptionally better than typical '90s Squaresoft fare. Fixes a number of bugs that were in the Famicom version. There are two difficulty modes: Default difficulty makes grinding go a little faster since it accelerates skill experience, and there's an unlockable 'normal' mode that emulates the Famicom version's balances as closely as possible. I personally prefer this version of the game.

>GBA
Casualizes the game severely. It's like the PS1 version's easy mode, but grinding is accelerated even more, and overpowered equipment like the Masamune can be indefinitely farmed now. The palettes are overly bright and washed out to accommodate non-backlit GBAs. Uses a new retranslation different from the PS1 version, and is quite terrible at that. Not recommended.

>PSP
Essentially an upscaled port of the GBA version, but with more post-game content. All the post-game content is basically fanfic-tier garbage, much like FF4: The After Years. The graphics upscaling is awkward and inconsistent. Not recommended.

>Mobile
Port of the PSP version, but with severe stability issues.

>>4561828
do not go with dawn of souls or PSP
>>4561851
this guy knows what's up

>>4561851
>Uses a new retranslation different from the PS1 version, and is quite terrible at that.
For example?

>>4561851
this

>>4561874
>For example?
Too many rewrites and added lines that didn't appear in the original script. A lot of Square-Enix translations just make up stuff as they go along, simultaneously ignoring the original tone. The PS1 script is guilty of this to some degree as well, but I suppose it's the 'best' of the official English translations that were produced.

>>4560705
>The original Famicom version didn't give any of the characters names.
The names are in the Famicom FF2 manual. I thought it was odd that the manual story gives them names but the name entry screen just has blank names with no default so if you want those names you have to manually enter them.

>Esuna leveling

>>4561938
>The names are in the Famicom FF2 manual.
I never saw this. But I don't know if I can track down a copy of the JP manual in PDF format to verify. You may be right.

No official JP media calls the protagonist Firion at any rate. I suspect that was done in the PS1 version due to character limits on the naming screen. And then Square went on to retain it in later ports for whatever reason.

>>4552152
V takes the crown. But II is still worth playing.

>>4561951
Got ya covered senpai

>>4562004
Well, I'll be damned. I thought the characters were intended to be blank slates until they received names and personalities in the novelization.