/vr/ - Retro Games

>>4546894
If you give us your argument we could actually debate here, but this just seems like a silly shitpost. Not much to say unless you start first.
Why do you think scoring systems are bad?

>>4546902
FUCKING captcha fucked me up, this was supposed to say
>praises socre systems
>complains about collectathons
Or something like that.

I mean score systems and collectathons (within reason, as long as it's not DK64-tier nonsense) can be fun, but I feel like you're implying an equivalence that doesn't really exist? How is running around collecting things in a 3D game world comparable to trying to get a high score. One is exploration/adventure the other is a gamey challenge. It's not surprising at all that some people like one and not the other

>>4546921
>FUCKING captcha fucked me up

>>4546902
what do you expect from a wojakposter

>>4546927
>>4546928
I miss legacy captcha :'(

>>4546921
Shit you're retarded. You go to ask a stupid question and you even fuck that up.

>>4546921
Ah, okay. Are you referring to score in arcade games or some other more specific type of scoring on consoles?
You'll need to specify for the second type. In the case of the first one, they're entirely different for one fundamental reason:
In collectathons, you go around collecting stuff and then you save the game. It's a permanent collectable, so they're tapping into the compulsion of completion some people have.
Arcade scoring has an entirely different feel since it resets with each new session: they're more a representation of skill. You can't restart the games and keep the score from your last run to farm for it forever. It's not about collecting.

>>4546940
Usually scoring system in consoles are based on the Arcade model anyway.

>>4546940
What are some good scoring systems that take skill and don't just force you to milk enemy spawn points for 3 hours or rely on random item drops?

>>4546940
I wish your score in R-Type would roll back to it was the last time you hit an invisible checkpoint, that would prevent checkpoint milking.

>>4546947
auto-scrolling games where the item drops aren't random

>>4546945
Sure, but I'm aware some games don't and maybe he's referring to those that don't follow the arcade style.
>>4546951
Yeah, this is the reason checkpoints were abandoned once scoring became a more important aspect in shooters.
>>4546947
As >>4546954 says, there's a reason shooters are popular to play for score compared to other genres. Though some of them (even later, non checkpoint based) have some boss milking like ESPRADE, but this is unusual.

>>4546954
Are score systems useless outside Shmups?

>>4546961
Yes. That's why they have been obsoleted, replaced with Achievements and unlockables.

>>4546961
no. even in games where going for a high score isn't interesting, getting rewarded with extra continues or special stages is fun. look at sonic for example. of course sonic is easy enough to beat with 0 continues, but I'm sure a lot of kids were into getting points for continues back then. also rings/coins/whatever for extra lives. because, realistically, those things are just proxy points anyway. you even get a set amount of points for each one you pickup.

>>4546961
No, have you ever played Pac-Man, Pepper II, Nibbler, or Solar Fox?

>>4546963
Achievements could have been such a nice ideal, if only they didn't rely on repeating tedious data mining like kill 99 enemies underwater with a shotgun or beat level 2.

>>4546967
>Nibbler
Oh god, reaching a billion points in that game require 16 hours of continuous play, and the max difficulty in the later levels is actually EASY as fuck which is the reason why players can afford to stay playing for so long. Not what I would call a good system.
I agree with the rest of your post, though.

>>4546974
>16 hours
Akshully, it's 30 hours straight.
https://kotaku.com/man-vs-snake-documents-one-mans-obsession-with-nibbler-1788109519

>>4546964
That's a very good point, I stupidly forgot they still used scores for extends.

>>4546963
Achievements are only good if the game doesn't make you get them anyway. I recently played Cuphead on Steam, and whenever I finished one of the Inkwell Isles, I got an achievement for it. The experience of getting the achievement is hollow if you get it simply for completing a part of the game. I'm okay with there being an achievement for beating the game, but only because I find most people I know don't tend to finish games, they play them and instead of sticking to it, they'll find something else when the game either gets too hard or something else comes out.

>>4546993
Those kinds of achievements are for data mining how far into the game most players got.
There's also a Cuphead achievement for beating Hard Mode which is how cheevos should have worked in the first place.

>>4546961
No, they just focused on scoring a lot after a point in the mid 90's or so.
There are a lot of arcades (mostly early ones from the 70's and early 80's) where the whole point is to score, they don't have an end to survive to.
And yeah, extends as previously mentioned.
>>4546969
Please don't reply to obvious bait. Thank you.

>>4546894
I don't want to discuss anything with a dumb wojack poster who's just going to respond to anything i say with a dumb wojack. Fuck the hell off back to /v/ and take your epic maymay with you.

>>4546993
Ignore the trolls, please.

>>4546974
I don't really care about getting my score THAT damned high. Realistically speaking, Nibbler's scoring system is broken into 2 parts: The gathering of the nibs, and how much time is left over when you finish the board. If you do it in a shorter amount of time, you get more points, which gives you the competitive element. 2 people can play the exact same game and not come out with the same total points, and whoever is scoring more is obviously doing better.

>>4546996
I don't think it's bait, I think achievements and leaderboards are the evolution of the high score concept. You might not LIKE them, but all I'm saying is that they are obviously related.

>>4547003
Saying scoring is useless outside of shmups and implying this is why they got obsoleted by achievements and unlockables is not bait? lol Okay.

>>4547000
I'm not responding everything with a wojack, this is just how things are done on 4chna, if I made a nice thread I would have received zero replies so I'm forced to be confrontational.

>>4547015
Like I said, achievements are the logical evolution of high scores. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they haven't been influenced by scores.

>>4547019
More like the illogical de-evolution. Farming in a save file to kill 100 enemies of the same type has nothing to do with arcade scoring which is tied to each new game session. One is plainly wasting enough time a lot of the time, the other a measurement of skill.
>>4547017
I make successful nice threads all the time. Guys like you are the ones that perpetuate the feeling of this place being for shitposting only. If you dislike it, then don't do it. Persevere, improve on your OPs (this one was clearly bad).

>>4546961
No.

>>4547017
>that's just how things are on 4chan
The only reason it's like that is because redditors like you have that idea in your heads and stupidly follow the notion to the T. You have to go back.

>>4547024
That was a terrible OP but the thing is, it worked didn't it? It made you reply multiple times just to complain about how horrible this thread was.
If you see a horrible thread please don't reply to it otherwise you're only making it successful.

>>4547032
Funny you say that because Reddit usually has long well thought-out OPs.

>>4547024
I agree those are terrible and only there to inflate your play time, but there are still SOME achievements for reaching a milestone amount of points or beating the game on Hard difficulty, these are the good kind of achievements.

>>4547034
I'm the guy that first replied. If you notice, I tried hard to make sure this thread wouldn't derail into empty shitposting. I haven't complained myself, maybe others.
/vr/ is not that Wojak-friendly, nice threads can work here.

>>4547034
I meant he OP is awful but this is an alright thread where people are actually having a meaningful conversation about score in games

Cuphead has shitty achievements for doing 100 parries which is pointless and can be easily cheesed out in the earlier levels, but there also achievements for getting S-Ranks (score) and for beating the game on Expert mode.

>>4547045
Yeah, those are the exception, and even then those are a different from scoring. Those are capped, while scoring is something you can potentially work on forever (exceptions: games with counterstops, though you can try to counterstop faster I guess).
Those "good" achievements are just a silly trophy and don't mean anything. You know you beat the game, you don't need the game to tell you. But scoring systems can be complex and so it's nice that the game keeps track of them.

>>4547048
And it would have been even better if the OP was nicely done. I would have posted the same myself and give it plenty of bumps since I like the topic.

>>4547052
It messes that up too by only giving you the achievement for getting 1 (one) S Rank, most people just get it in the first level and call it quits.

>>4547056
I got you to talk either way so who cares. It's 4chan, chill out.

>>4547065
It's one of the only places I can discuss my favorite hobby so I value the quality of the posts, particularly in threads of topics I care about like this one.

Reminder that scoring sucks and those who defend it are aspies.

>>4547079
If I made a thread saying "let's talk about fun score systems" I would have received zero replies and probably be called a redditor, but if I bait people into a fight, the thread suddenly becomes successful. Like you're doing right now and don't even realize. Even if people only post to flame and call me names it's still more fun than receiving zero replies.

>>4547000
>I don't want to discuss anything with a dumb wojack poster who's just going to respond to anything i say with a dumb wojack. Fuck the hell off back to /v/ and take your epic maymay with you.

>>4547085
Sup Icycalm
>>4547086
You would have recieved mine. In fact, I'll start:
Dangun Feveron is one of the most fun experiences I've ever had scoring, shit is so exhilarating it's ridiculous.

Is /vr turning into /tv?

>>4547092
People are more likely to respond to confrontational comments, like you're doing. Right now. Twice.
Dagun is great and easy to understand, I like how the items bounce back up off the bottom of the screen instead of disappearing.

>>4547098
I'm not just barely replying with more confrontation, I'm trying to get this back to the topic while giving you some advice, that's all. Next time try a nice thread and I'll be there.

Man, we need more shooters with heavy emphasis on moving fast as shit, macrododging while also having cool scoring. Most fast macrododging shooters are older and thus have simple scoring.

I prefer when games give you a Grading at the end, like they did in Golden Axe, Alien Storm, Crazy Taxi.
Giving an arbitrary number feels detached and pointless, who's gonna care if I got 2,934,234 points at some random game. Now saying "I got All S Ranks" in game on the other hand feels meaningful.

>>4547109
It's more fun to be a prick, sorry man. You're being argumentative right now which is what I mean.

>>4547112
House of the Dead does that too. Shame it never caught on.

>>4547114
To each their own I guess, I'm fine with you, you aren't an asshole.
>>4547112
That grading system is cool but the appeal of the more classic scoring systems is the lack of a cap, competition and all that stuff.
You're right, nobody is gonna care about your score in a game unless they also play the same game, since the numbers are something exclusive to each game. A very good score in Raiden would be absolute garbage numerically if it was a Mars Matrix's score. But who cares what others who don't even play your game think about your achievement?

>>4546894
Crawl back to /v/ please.

>>4547132

See? It works.

>>4547112
Grading is good for more casual players because of its clear and "official" nature but its far too simplistic. The great thing about scoring is that the results you get are incredibly varied. Also players eventually get much higher scores than developers thought were possible. Rank would just put a skill cap on that.

>>4547136
What posts do you prefer
This: >>4547132
Or this: >>4547139
It's not just bumps and attention that matter, anon. It's about having fun discussing something you love. You can shitpost anywhere, why ruin something special.

Anyway, on to your post >>4547139
You did a good job expanding on my points. I think a lot of modern gamers consider the idea of a single player game to not have a skill cap something foreign, they like to feel they have completed something (you can beat most arcade games anyway, tho). The rise in popularity of speedruns may change this mentality, but it's still nor scoring. And GDQ has a weird bias against arcade games. Of course I'm not asking them to showcase autoscrolling games, but for some reason arcade games are a very small part of the event. I don't care for speedrunning nor GDQ but the popularity it has is undeniable so that's why I mention it.

>>4547161
Might be because Arcade games are unsafe and unpopular as fuck. They've already ran most of the big name beat'em ups anyway, most worthwhile arcades received acceptable console ports and you can't speedrun a fighter or shoot'em up, so what else is left?

>>4547168
I know they are less popular but how are they unsafe? I didn't get this part.
I guess I expected a "hardcore" community like the speedrunning one to have more love for arcades. I guess they just are into the appeal of turning normally easy games into a challenge, since arcades are most of the time challenging enough.
They repeat the same games constantly btw, they don't repeat the arcades tho. And I'm fine with 1:1 ports being played; again, I don't expect them to play on PCBs, they have to stream that stuff.

>>4547161
No, the problem lies in the casual attitude itself. Most players tend to only do what games require of them, or at least heavily encourage. Scoring systems are hardcore because you not only have to figure out the system, but also do external research to grasp the "meaning" of a score and how your scores stack up to others. Beyond extends that you can usually get without putting in much effort in score, there is no incentive for casuals to score. Rank systems are different in that they immediately give your score that "meaning". Not only that but it's official, easy to understand and there are additional incentives such as just plain shame (a common criticism I hear of ranks is because people feel shamed). Speedrunning is closer to scoring but it also has the benefits of rank in that it's a very simple, intuitive way to measure your skill at a game. Understanding speed gains is for the most part easy, while an inexperienced player will not understand anything going on in more complex shoot 'em ups.

>>4547182
For example, if you miss an infinite combo set up in Final Fight, you'll quickly look like you're struggling instead of dominating the game. The Tetris TGM3 guys constantly reminded the audience they made no promises of reaching the invisible credits ending because it's so difficult it's impossible to do it consistently.

>>4547168
>you can't speedrun a fighter
There is a Tekken 3 and 5 speedrun community.
And it works surprisingly well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYq9MehyX_M

>>4547210
You can technically speedrun shooters, too, but only the bosses and not dying count.
DOJ Death Label could be interesting to speedrun, but that shit is insane enough as it is.
Maybe the boss rush mode in some of the Raizing games like the Bat trilogy?
>>4547192
Yeah, it's like this other poster today that said he could enjoy Gradius because it didn't let you continue but he couldn't do the same with other similar games that did let you, like he couldn't resist credit feeding. I won't repeat myself, the discussion is here: >>4546417
>>4547198
So even typical speedrunners are too "casual" for these? Man, we arcade lovers sure are a dying breed lol

In shmups, good scoring systems are fun not just because they allow for competition against others and yourself, but because they add an extra layer of long term planning, decision making and risk vs reward.

Playing for survival lets you look at enemy waves as isolated challenges that can be cleared as you wish, as long as you clear them. What the best scoring systems do is connect those waves together into a cohesive whole by adding more elements you need to manage. How you kill one enemy wave will affect the other, minor positioning mistakes can change your routes completely, oftentimes you deliberately have to stall killing waves to get more points, or let the screen get more cluttered for a nice cancel. This is not only very fun to work out, but also keeps you constantly engaged with the game.

Risk vs reward enhances that. The best scoring has multiple conflicting systems, that are in even further in conflict with survival. There you only need to be concerned with minimizing risk, because there is no reward. When you play for score you need to constantly think about how much risk you think is worth it. Where should you take risks? How long can you keep up a boss milk? Is this risk even worth it, or should you go for a clear? Should you push yourself to compensate for early mistakes by taking large risks later on? All of this needs to be considered, which makes the games feel dynamic.

>>4547450
This, I can have fun playing for score even intrinsically (by this I mean not actually caring about the resulting number), they are just that fun to play.

>>4547457
The intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation dichotomy is sloppy anyway, the two are too closely related and inseparable in most cases. It's very obvious with scoring because it's not EXACTLY a reward, it's something more akin to a guide or a measurement.

>>4546951
I tried to use my score to judge who I was the best at in Street Fighter II and then found out the characters I kept repeatedly losing as had the highest scores after beating the game. Pretty ass-backwards, isn't it?

>>4547475
Yeah but if you continue in R-Type it wipes your scores.

>>4547462
I use that distinction a lot since I feel classic games are more about intrinsic enjoyment while modern games are much more extrinsic based (aesthetic rewards such as getting to the next cutscene, progress systems...).

>>4547475
Why the fuck even bother with points in fighting games anyway. They should have done like Tekken and used your best time to determine the high score table.

>>4547475
Fighting games have notoriously throwaway scoring systems since their competition was direct and that got enough quarters. I still don't understand why they usually got cheap bosses and/or cheating AI then, though.

>>4547481
>progress systems
That's how I know you're a retard.

>>4547480
I know, I was trying to relate to you. What I meant was I wished SFII did what R-Type was doing.

>>4547484
Cheap SNK bosses are INCREDIBLY overrated by the FGC, you just have to have a different mindset than when playing human players and exploit patterns.

>>4547485
Unlocking content through grinding is an extrinsic motivation and all the rage in modern games, I'm sure you're aware. Their addiction power is so strong even people that don't even enjoy what they're playing intrinsically keep playing due to the rewards.

>>4547481
It's way more useful there, but even then it can become muddled. Cheevos can be used in the same way as scoring milestones which is contextualizing/structuring your play to make it more enjoyable intristically. I mean, that's the original idea behind progression systems before they turned into the abominations we have today.

>>4547489
Dunno, Shin Bison or whatever's called in Alpha 3 for instance is pretty bullshit and that game read your inputs sometimes.

>>4547490
Nah. Only a small amount of the population are genetically predisposed to fall into that trap. And there's nothing wrong with exploiting dumbasses, that's just basic capitalism.

>>4547491
Sure, man, you're right on a theoretical level but as you know in practice it's pretty crystal clear, particularly nowadays.

>>4547493
hold back and do a quick weak jab, he will either teleport behind, slide or try to stomp you, block and punish when possible

>>4547496
>Only a small amount of the population
Are you shitting me, gaming IS this right now. They can't be a minority if these are the current standard models.
I wouldn't mind this if arcade games and games made in that style didn't have to die. In fact, I didn't for a while (like 5th-6th gens and even 7th to an extent, 360 ports) since there were still plenty of games for me. Nowadays no such luck tho.

>>4547496
Yes it's such a non-problem that regulating exploitative garbage like lootboxes is a hot topic internationally as far as gaming is concerned.

>>4547507
Nah, I play modern games, they aren't nearly as addicting as you say otherwise I wouldn't be bored most of the time

>>4547503
Yeah, but this is stuff that's hard to figure out except for trial and error. And the reading input stuff is just undeniably bullshit.
I just find it baffling that games focused on single player like shooters usually feel more fair, even if more challenging, while fighters that got a lot of profit from versus matches felt the need to add these cheap parts for easy coins.

>>4547507
What's the progress system in Cuphead besides giving you infinite checkpoints during boss fights?
You could just, not continue and reset after every death.

>>4547508
Pure Gacha games have been banned in Japan for some years, for instance
>>4547514
You just know better. You're here for a reason, after all. Also, some people are more prone to addictive behavior.

>>4547515
play the Japanese Street Fighter Zero, it's way easier

>>4547518
Cuphead is not HearthStone, that's a much better game. I just find it a tad weak compared to the high standards set by arcades. I'd still say it's good though, but it's more like MegaDrive games.

>>4547519
Are they? The pull system in Stella Stage is pure gacha.

>>4547518
>What's the progress system in Cuphead besides giving you infinite checkpoints during boss fights?
Cuphead is deliberately made as a tribute to arcade-style games, and there you still have unlockable weapons and special attack.

>>4547520
I 1cc SFZ2 all the time and it has cheap stuff in the latter half of the fights. I'm not complaining about the challenge at all, I just like well designed challenge and not cheating AI. I still enjoy them but I don't understand why they felt the need to add stuff like that.