/vr/ - Retro Games

>>4534914
Uh, I guess give the SaGa franchise a try?

download rpg maker and make your own

SMT
Roguelikes

>>4534914
You'd probably get a lot of mileage out of a game like Treasure of the Rudras; I fucking total party wiped 5 minutes into the game.

>>4534914
Arc the Lad Collection

>>4534914
Most older ones are like that. Avoid playing the genre from PlayStation/Saturn onward (with a few exceptions).

>>4534928
how? I love the system, but you can create some broken spells by making up words, you don't even have to look up a guide

>>4534931
Not entirely fair; PSX/Saturn era indeed is when story began to noticeably overtake gameplay, but they tend to play well and are a nice middle-ground between Wizardry Murder-Suicide Simulator and Hand-Holding Nerf Safari Storytime.

As long as you're not playing FF7 clones.

>>4534921
The wikipedia result gave me something good. Where do I start? Final Fantasy Legend for Game Boy?

>>4534928
Wikipedia also gives me that they had a Japanese release only. Are there translation patches or something?

>>4534931
I checked Arc the Lad on youtube. Is it similar with Shining Force?

>>4534938
>Hand-Holding Nerf Safari Storytime
This... is so damn accurate for the majority of modern JRPG's. God dammit.

>>4534938
Sure, but OP would have an easier time finding games he'd like on earlier systems, which is why I suggested him that and mentioned there are a few exceptions afterward.
>>4534939
Haven't touched Arc the Lad, sorry. About Sa·Ga, play FF Legends 1-2, Romancing Sa·Ga 2-3 and maybe the Frontier ones.
>>4534941
Thank you, FFVII

>>4534941
I've found most modern rpgs have difficulty options and just switching up one above default keeps them from feeling that way. I've been playing some Tokyo Xanadu EX+ and I definitely had to actually learn and use all the mechanics in the tutorial stages to survive.

>>4534953
Yep, Nocturne on Hard.

>>4534953
I know that's not a /vr/ discussion but I had to play EX+ on Calamity and try to avoid dying because even with the item cooldown it's so easy to resurrect spam.

>>4534949
Thanks, will do. I found FF Legends has a Wonderswan Color remake. Not sure what's the state of emulation for that one.

SMT and Wizardry. Yes Wizardry is technically american but only japs care about it and it's mechanically more similar to JRPGs than western ones

DQ3 is great but not difficult. DQ2 is kinda difficult. A lot of people don't like it but I loved it.

>>4534984
More like JRPGs are basically Wizardry-likes that eventually just became storyfag 0 challenge games while CRPGs moved on from dungeon crawling after a while to be closer to P&P games (and later le open world meme).

>>4534984
>Wizardry

I recall a friend telling me to just keep rerolling in training grounds until I get great rolls, which I found retarded. Is it playable if I don't? I want to treat it like the pen and paper RPG where you roll once, save the roll and try for a higher roll and that's what you're stuck with.

>>4534990
the open world thing is what sucks about WRPGS to me, although a few of them did do it well.

>>4534992
i never rerolled in wizardry. you don't have to. when you do a class change the character's stats reset to the lowest possible for their race anyway. Unlike D&D, in Wizardry your stats increase at a significant rate as you level up. rolling all OP characters would just give you an early boost. If you jsut do it the real man's way and roll once per character you'll probably have at least 1 (relatively) OP character and one shit character, but the difference is really not that huge, especially as time goes on. but if you wanna be a big fag you can go ahead and do it.

>>4534992
It can be doable, but maybe you'll need to grind more, so wasting more time in the reroll part evens out. It sucks the fun out of the P&P aspect, though.

>>4535000
Trips for truth.
I'm reading the game manual as we speak for some barebones feel before I dig in. Which version do I go for the mad overlord one?

>>4535007
I like the Super Famicom version, most people on here will probably tell you the same. the only Japanese you have to know is enough hiragana to change nihongo to eigo in the options, and change meiru from menga to senga if you want the wireframe dungeons instead of the SNES textures. Wizardry 2 is a continuation of the 1st campaign, and you transfer your characters over, so having it on one game/rom is probably an easier process than whatever you have to do when emulating the old PC versions. That was another reason I picked SNES. It also has a great OST composed in Japan. I avoid the NES version because apparently Armor Class doesn't work in it.

>>4535007
One thing for sure: map the game, either by drawing or with some sort of software. Unless you want a miserable experience.

>>4535016
btw, I recommend using graph paper, because it doesn't have an automapper like ATLUS dungeon crawlers. it's actually really fun to use and it basically allows you to navigate dark zones as if they were normal after the first time you've explored them, unlike the auto mapping dungeon crawlers that don't record teh dark places so you're kind of mindless bumping into walls until you find your way through

>>4535024
Cheers, will use a normal piece of paper though because stores are closed and can't wait until Monday to play!

I'll also check the Saga games per anon suggestion >>4534949

>>4534939
>Are there translation patches or something?
The same way you google the wiki you could google the translation patch. There's a pretty good one out there.

I don't see this game posted in /vr/ for some reason, considering it's good, the boss fights are all tough too, in fact, I dropped this game as a kid because I couldn't get past the one-on-one fight.

SJRPGs>JRPGs
Take the simulation pill and play ogre battle, fire emblem, front mission, final fantasy tactics, super robot wars.
Strategizing and seizing a battle on the map is always more fun, even games with no plot like the fami/sufami Wars series are still fun as shit just for the gameplay.

>>4535380
We had a thread about this exact game just a few days ago, anon.
>>4535394
SRPGs are games where the exploration factor is sacrificed in order to focus entirely on battles and thus making them much better individually. It depends on what you want from a game. Regular RPGs are a more "balanced" experience but SRPGs are cool too.

>>4535394
desu when I've treid a couple SRPGS I always found them kind of lacking compared to games like HoMaM and Endless Legend. but it might be because I tried really barebones ones like the original Fire Emblem.

>>4535443
They really are simpler than western rpgs, even modern ones

What about Jagged Alliance 2?

>>4535394
Honestly I think I'll check Fire Emblem out. I was talking with a friend and was telling him how even vaguely following the ranking formula from FE7 would increase the challenge.

>>4534914
Try Valkyrie Profile, the combat is fun, the voices are hamtastic, some random mooks are able to wipe the floor with you out and has some skillful platforming

Labyrinth of Touho- wait, not retro. Uhh, huh. Now that I think about it, there weren't so many pure JRPGs in the past. I guess they felt obligated to include a lot of story, unlike WRPGs.

>>4535394
I played Final Fantasy Tactics once upon a moonlight and outside of a boss fight or two everything else was simple. Maybe I should try a "no random encounters" run and see how it goes, or maybe some romhack with balance tweaks

>>4535605
Loved that game. The conditions for the best ending were kinda bullshit but the combat was fun. What I would always like is if they were to expand the combat system in a good way, with directional modifiers etc.

>>4535779
try pic related, I haven't played it but I remember it was a thing a couple of years ago

>>4535841
>>4535779
all the patched FFTs are really only interesting insofar as you're already a person who liked the original game

definitely, a dry run playthrough with no grinding is far more entertaining than what happens if you level up and optimize at all since the battle system is full of character builds with insane synergies that the AI literally never uses.

if you want a patch where the every battle has formations of enemies that use the best synergies they have access to at that skill level you're shit out of luck because no one made that patch yet

If anyone is looking for ambitious, go to F a n t a s y a n i m e d o t c o m. Tons of old school rpgs with downloads and emulators, TONS of romhacks to make games more difficult or in english, and when the rpg lunchbreak section is the tits. Been going to that site for 12+ years and still find new content.

>>4536065
>FantasyAnime

That takes me back.
FantasyAnime, RPGClassics and Shining Force Central were my shit back then.

>>4534939
You can start SaGa from Final Fantasy Legend. Final Fantasy Legend has three different races that have their own character growth mechanics, humans being reliant on buying strength, agility, and HP potions, mutants gaining random stats after battles, and monsters needing monster meat to transform into another monster.

SaGa is an experimental series so you have to adapt to how characters grow to later games with how you progress the game. They do have traditional aspects like how battles are often conducted, sometimes with its own twist depending upon the game, but that is where you will feel most familiar with the games mechanics over other aspects.

>>4536238
Is it true that SaGa games in general can also be broken in half with some OP shit?

7th Saga on the SNES

Although I must always give the warning that's it's kind of a bad game. Many people end up liking it, but other people hate it, justifiably pointing out how the battles against the other apprentices are broken and the game is too grindy.

Still it's like a 30 hour game if you play is correctly. Listen carefully to the gameplay tips from everyone in the first town and go solo as much as you can to reduce the grinding.

>>4534914
Final Fantasy 5
Lufia 3

>>4536815
Of course
In fact, half the appeal of SaGa Frontier is how godlike you can become

>>4534914
Ys I and II boss fights can be challenging if you're not over the leveled, Ys IV also.

>>4534953
The downside with this is that often, difficulty isn't really 'true' difficulty, you just have to spend more time and items on each boss battle since bosses just do more damage and have more HP. There are exceptions though.

Problem is that so many JRPGs just have so little depth, so difficulty options don't help all that much. Aside from spamming the most powerful moves there's not much to do. Take, for example, Skies of Arcadia. You've got a nice magic system and a nice super move system, but since both use the same pool of spirit points (Magic also uses MP as well as SP) which is shared by all characters it's completely pointless to learn the magic system (aside from casting Increm/Incremus at the start of a battle) since spamming super moves almost always ends the battle in a more efficient way. It's not even good for healing since healing items are super cheap, do exactly the same as the healing spells, stack up to 99 in the inventory and don't cost SP or MP to use.

>>4536923
turn based rpgs don't really have true difficulty, western or eastern, mostly because of their very nature of relying almost entirely on stats. You can't grind in a turn based game like chess so all your pawns become queen pieces or something, both you and your opponent have the same tools at your disposal
In turn based rpgs either you can grind and trivialize a fight or you figure out a bosses pattern/weakness/gimmick and he'll never be able to do anything about it the next time you fight him
compare that to real time combat where even if you know how an enemy works you still have to use timing and reflexes

But that's also a reason why I think designing turn based rpgs is fun. They're not a "solved" genre unlike FPS which haven't really changed (or had a reason to change) much since Quake
Even Dark Souls combat isn't that different from Severance's, which isn't all that different Ocarina Of Time's

>>4536961
I disagree there. A turn-based game can be challenging and difficult. Just because grinding is possible doesn't mean a game is easy. Most retro JRPGs are not designed around players who grind to level 100 fighting wildlife in the stating forest because no rational person would do that since it takes ages.

I give this example pretty often in threads like these but games like Etrian Odyssey are genuinely challenging turn-based games. You can grind, but after a while enemies give so little exp that there's really no point to it anymore, and a large portion of your characters' power is locked behind equipment, anyways, which will only become available once you advance in the game. You can in principle break the game by using overpowered tactics, that's true, and once you start using these tactics the game becomes trivial. However, finding these tactics on your own is where the challenge is. It's like a puzzle. They can be challenging, too, but once you've figured out the answer the challenge is gone.

But you're right. Designing a turn-based game can be fun, since you have to take into account all the different ways players might try to break your game.

>>4536961
I agree I thought about this a lot since this is my favorite genre, some games have used creative ways to get around these limitations, like the final boss of Chrono Trigger who can only be killed under very specific conditions making overpowering him or figuring out his pattern less meaningful. Though, that game is so easy, you're going to have enough chances at it where you'll eventually time your attacks perfectly and beat him. Games like Growlanser added an element of space and movement, like a cross between strat RPGs and pure turn based, it's a very fun system but I do find myself often simply overpowering everybody. Chrono Cross has an experience cap at certain intervals, which I appreciate but it is trivial. Then you have pure strat RPGs which do a better job of challenging the player in my experience just by their very nature of making space , movement , and inventory management key features of the battle. I've been trying to do a death free fallout run for a while, where space and movement are key features of managing RNG and avoiding criticals, it's some of the most fun I've had in a while.

Then you have games like Dragon Warrior Monsters which said, fuck it, took advantage of the limitations of a turn based system and made the strategy come more in the form of shaping your team to perform these battles, which are simplistic on their own.

I've played many games where the game itself does a good job of managing how well leveled you are in relation to how powerful the enemies are to make the turn based battles a challenging test of inventory and mp management deep in dungeons with no save points. However, this challenge IS self imposed, the tools are there to turn your pieces into “queens” whenever you want and so the game never has real difficulty that you can't do anything about.

>>4534914
Try Final Fantasy 2 NES
Or Chrono Trigger

>>4536967
>>4536982
I think what the genre needs is some rules that affect how battles play out, something like "no automatic re-targeting" from FF1 or other NES RPGs
The turn based ultima games also had a rule that a character only got EXP from dealing a killing blow, so you couldn't keep your squishier characters in the back, which I personally liked
Imagine a battle mechanic or rule that would make it so that EVEN if the player grinded to lv 100 he'd still have to think about making the correct choices and weigh his options during a battle even against weak enemies
A lot of people would hate a game like that, but I think It'd be interesting to see
I don't know how to explain it, but for now, battles in turn based rpgs feel like what football would be like if it didn't have the offside rule

I don't have an answer to this problem yet (well if you consider it a problem at all, some people think they SHOULD be able to steamroll over everything if they grinded) but it's fun to think about nonetheless

>>4536961
I feel your definition of true difficulty is bound to mechanical aptitude (reflexes and reaction time). In games where there's none of that, information - preparation - understanding wins all.

For that matter, taking in the advice of someone who randomly spouted of an OP spell/combination makes much more impact than say, an action-oriented game, because there's nothing from "execution" perspective other than "move your cursor and confirm".

>>4536998
>I feel your definition of true difficulty is bound to mechanical aptitude (reflexes and reaction time)
I guess it does sound like that, but I already mentioned chess which is turn based game that also requires skill
You have to know the rules of the game beforehand, but you also have to make the right decisions during the match. Knowing how each chess piece works isn't a guarantee for victory
Of course chess has no stats, your pieces can't learn new moves etc. and the only thing that makes each match different is the player you're facing

I guess what I'd like to see is a battle system that required "meaningful player input" (vague, I know) even against foes you've already faced

>>4537016
Chess is also a PvP game and the entirety of skill is about interacting with your enemy. An A.I. that adapts organically based on your game decisions won't come for the next decade unless Google decides that they want their botnet to get into gaming, since captcha teaches it to recognize cars and signs.

>>4536989
I will admit, some of the most fun I ever had turn based was going from a weak pathetic rag tag group to walking machines of destruction by the end of the game. Even though there's no challenge to it, there is something satisfying about being the most unstoppable killing me machine in the world. What was the old combo, 2x-attack + knights of the round + copy attack, cast knights of the round six times on the first turn for a zillion damage.

But now in my older years I find myself thinking about this more and more and looking to really find those challenges or possibly create them myself. There are few things more rewarding in a video game than surviving a hard turn based battle where two of your comrades are down and you were on the brink of death four different times, with a crit coming your way sooner or later, and you're running very low on supplies.

>>4537181
Anon, computers can already play video games. Not too long ago there was a Nature article about computer algorithms learning to play games like Space Invaders and Q-bert.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature14236

And Google has already made a bot that can play Go well, which was apparently a big challenge until recently.

https://www.nature.com/news/google-ai-algorithm-masters-ancient-game-of-go-1.19234

But of course for video game companies to incorporate this stuff into their games it'll take a while.

The challenge in pure RPGs is entirely time-based. If you have a good capacity for strategic planning you can beat the game in less time. If you suck you'll waste more time, either grinding or failing at it.
They are popular since almost everyone can beat them, but they can still somewhat appeal people who enjoy challenge since they will opt to not waste time to make the experience trivial.

>>4536839
>In fact, half the appeal of SaGa Frontier is how godlike you can become

That's a shame. So they're just another JRPG. I was hoping there would be at least more difficulty-focused.

>>4536836
This and Mystic Ark were what I was gonna post. Mystic Ark is a little more storybased but very battleheavy. Paladin's Quest/Lennus 2 are both interesting choices too and offer something a bit more freeform. I think the freest JRPG that's still retro is probably Metal Max Returns, in which what you do, who you side with and a large amount of weapon/battle customisation are entirely up to you.

>>4537205
>But now in my older years I find myself thinking about this more and more and looking to really find those challenges or possibly create them myself. There are few things more rewarding in a video game than surviving a hard turn based battle where two of your comrades are down and you were on the brink of death four different times, with a crit coming your way sooner or later, and you're running very low on supplies.

OP here. I agree with the sentiment. I feel like difficulty when done properly can also contribute to the overall immersion. If I'm stronger than the figurative deity of the game it feels as if he was treated like a god for nothing since mere kids outmatch him (example scenario).

>>4537253
>The challenge in pure RPGs is entirely time-based.

I enjoy counting my battles where games allow it, but that's stuff that you can do in second/third playthroughs.

>>4537276
this, you won't know how well balanced the game is on your first playthrough
maybe you need to grind just to get through the game or you need to flee from most battles to get a slight challenge out of the bosses

>>4537326
That's the problem JRPG's are facing. Instead of difficulty settings they should just add grinding modifiers etc. so that you choose on how much you want to engage in combat and whatnot.

So, for example, a setting where even fighting all the fights the game throws at you would still end you up somewhat underleveled so that the game is challenging.

This is also what I enjoyed in Bravely Second in a way because the game lets you know right off the bat what's the level range for each area and it's up to me whether I'll toggle exp gain / job exp / encounter rate etc. I'm a sucker for games that give me the power to modify my experience instead of giving finite strict options of "normal" - "hard" - "nightmare".

>>4537361
>>4537326
not even kidding, pokemon actually does this better than most games, in that you can just do the mandatory trainer fights and easily avoid fighting random encounters for 90%+ of the game. the random encoutners are only necessary for catching pokemon. fighting random encounters overlevels you in those games. also, the amount of pokemon you're trying to play with determines your levels. I've found that trying to raise 6 pokemon with almost alle xp coming from trainers and gyms makes some of the boss fights genuinely challenging, especially in the latter part of gold/silver/crystal.

>>4537397
It's OK in theory but the battles are still VERY easy. I made a hack of Leaf Green for a friend where you don't get any experience points and he still managed to beat the elite 4.

>>4534927
>roguelikes

He asked for RPGs.

>>4537530
Nuzlocke challenge should be a good fit.

>>4537631
Nuzlocke + No Experience hack may depend a lot on luck to not get stuck, though I'm not sure.

>>4534914
Turn based rpgs are a difficult genre to make truly challenging. Often it requires extensive testing of so many possible combinations of aspects that something broken just about always goes unnoticed before release.

For retro I guess my only suggestion is SaGa but you already heard that. I want to suggest the old Shin Megami Tensei games but they're sort of weird as they could either be absolutely unforgiving or nearly trivial depending on if you know what is broken. Just a basic reading of which mechanics are broken and battles become almost pointless. Dragon Quest, or at least the older ones, offer some decent difficulty in some cases.

If you're interested in some no retro games that is actually easier for me to suggest stuff. The newer Shin Megami Tensei games, from the ps2 onward, offer pretty good difficulty. They still have some broken aspects but not nearly as bad or ab usable as earlier games. The thing about SMT is that typically grinding is near useless and is basically unfeasible as you gain experience at such a slow rate. Instead it is focused on team composition and customizing your demons to be as good as possible.

Breath of Fire V is really interesting. It was disliked by long time fans but if you go in expecting something different it really is quite interesting. Breath of Fire V is a bit more complex as position actually matters heavily is battle and can determine aspects such as how many enemies you can hit and which enemies can hit you. More interesting though is that you're on a sort of "timer", so to speak. The game is sort of like a rpg/survival horror hybrid. In the upper right corner a number will slowly build up, starting at 0% and going all the way to 100%. Every action he does, including attacking or even just walking, builds this meter up. There is no way to lower it and getting it to 100% means you're entire save is basically fucked. It creates a really interesting problem and makes even menial actions carry some weight.

>>4537642
Nuzlocke without the experience hack, keep the levels at a -4/+4 range of the upcoming gym trainer.

>>4537716
>For retro I guess my only suggestion is SaGa but you already heard that.

My worry is that SaGa games are supposedly enjoyable because you go "god mode" according to some other anon in the thread. That doesn't sound like difficulty being their asset.

As for SMT grinding is beneficial for compendium gold and to increase your level to fuse better demons.

>>4537767
Not him but although they're exploitable, those series offer a decent challenge if you don't go out of your way to cheese them. Which is probably OP's plan, it would be odd to seek out a challenging RPG just to break it.

>>4537778
I am OP and I tried getting into SaGa games with the very very first (the one we got in the West as Final Fantasy Legend).

Apparently the wonderswan color version of the game (the most recent one) boosted the mutant/esper growth sky high and the game went from "don't even think about relying on mutants" to "grab 4 mutants and roflstomp shit". By the end of the first floor my mutant one shotted the boss with a fire book.

I went into Fire Emblem starting with Fire Emblem 6 and played Wizardry 1 on the SNES. They both feel fun, Wizardry especially forced me to bury 4-5 people so far (and I haven't played much) but all I'm doing atm is >go to maze
>fight 2 battles
>get out and sleep with casters in the stables
>use cleric to heal up
>rinse repeat

I haven't even reach level 2 with anyone yet. I'm just glad that I can strip the bodies of the dead people before deleting them (resurrecting level 1 characters feels kinda dumb unless they had some godly roll during their creation).

>>4537805
You should play the original, it's pretty good. One of my earliest jrpgs and holds up okay. The gba/psp port of FF2 is also very playable and fun if you don't exploit.

>>4537805
Also, not retro but the Etrian Odyssey games are fun and challenging if you don't read up on cheese tactics as well.

>>4537827
Speaking of which, I'm gonna treat the "run out of hearts with the party leader" condition as a playthrough killer. I don't really understand why games with permadeath let you reload your game.

Take for example Fire Emblem games.
>Favorite characters die in the same battle
>Just throw the lord/leader under the bus to get a game over so that you can load your last save without feeling guilty

>>4537831
Oh I've been eyeing those since forever but I technically have no 3DS to play the recent ones. I only borrowed a 3DS to play SMT IV for my first megaten game and I found it generally easy, since I could load resists with a bucket.

>>4537845
The 3ds ones are real great but even the first ones on DS are really good and well worth playing if you have the means. I found Strange Journey and SMT IV painfully dull and easy after EO though. So be warned the series does kind or ruin other games.

>>4537840
>. I don't really understand why games with permadeath let you reload your game.

Because players want it. Not everyone likes that feeling of real consequences.

Beyond the Beyond. It's a very early PS1 game where the plot is unimportant and the endless combat grinds you to dust.

>>4537845
A cheap 3DS to play all that and more is a very reasonable decision. If you're poorer than that, a PSTV has access to many decent crawlers. There are quality and challenging RPG for PC as well, some that I especially enjoyed were Last Remnant and Genius of Sappheiros.

>>4535605
>Valkyrie Profile
>more emphasis on gameplay than story
You what? You can't even start controlling a character and playing the game until you've watched about an hour and fifteen minutes of cut scenes and dialogue. That number isn't an exaggeration, I've timed it. Ok, in the middle of that, you can control the character for 20 seconds to walk down the road and get to the next thirty minutes of dialogue, but you get my point.

>>4534914
Tactics Ogre. Plus is actually DOES have a solid story on top of that.

>>4538892
Which version?

>>4539132
not that guy, but the snes version is tougher imho

>>4539132
>>4539138
Yes SNES for sure. PSP port is a little fucked.

>>4539138
>>4539158
different poster, but isn't the PS1 version basically identical to the SNES version?

>>4539162
yes, with load times

>>4534990
>More like JRPGs are basically Wizardry-likes
The meme that wouldn't die

>>4537894
>I found Strange Journey and SMT IV painfully dull and easy after EO though. So be warned the series does kind or ruin other games.
I strongly prefer SMT but I suppose I can admit EO is generally harder

OP should play Sweet Home, not super hard but it's a blast

>>4539293
I prefer the setting and story elements of SMT a lot. But gamewise they're not as meaty. EO has great design and a fun level of challenge, bit lore and storywise it's mostly nonsense.

>>4539293
Wizardry was the RPG that inspired JRPGs the most, with Ultima in second place. If you think this is a meme you're just ignorant. I mean, you like SMT and EO, it should be obvious how much these are inspired by Wizardry.

>>4539302
Not a big fan of the massive skill trees personally, call it a matter of taste

>>4539373
Yeah but it's pretty weak to call DQ and FF Wizardry ripoffs, not that there's any shame in ripping off Wizardry

>>4540294
>Not a big fan of the massive skill trees personally, call it a matter of taste

Interesting, why so? To me a lot of the fun of the strategy is in figuring out what to go for. What do you prefer?

>>4540294
Not ripoffs, I said "Wizardry-likes". You know how this other genre is called Metroidvania (and is mocked for it, admittedly)? It's similar. JRPGs started by heavily taking from Wizardry, though they transformed later on as I said.

>>4540442
Neither of the three big early JRPGs took heavy notes from Wizardy though. Phantasy Star is the closest but even that is only because of first person dungeons. DQ and FF mostly ignored it. Any similarities go back to the tabletop roots.

>>4540467
The combat is very wizardry though. Also the mage magic/cleric magic dichotomy with teh bishops who can learn both (which DQ didn't do until 3 and it called bishops sages) which FF called black magic/whtie magic, with the red mages being bishops. And the magic system in the first FF.
As for stuff that goes back to tabletops, Japan didn't really play tabletops before RPGs were introduced to them by video games, so even for stuff like that Wizardry was a major influence.

>>4540486
Like I said that all came from the tabletop originals. If you're trying to say FF wasn't very, very, very heavily influenced by Dungeons and Dragons specifically then you clearly don't have a clue about the history of the genre.

>>4540614
Sure, it came from tabletop originally, but they learned them through Wizardry as >>4540486
says
FF copied some of the enemy designs from D&D

>>4540640
No. Wizardry was known but not really an influence.

both wizardry and dnd were an influence on FF

>We were all big fans of Wizardry and Ultima back then. Even though Dragon Quest had come out, in our minds, there still wasn't anything quite comparable to Ultima or Wizardry. That's the kind of game that Sakaguchi and Hiromichi Tanaka and I were interested in. As far as my role in the game went, I was mainly in charge of the battle system and battle sequences. For that, I tried to make it as close to Dungeons & Dragons as possible. That was my goal.

AK: I didn't need to oversimplify things, but there are certain precepts when it comes to a Dungeons & Dragons type of environment, a western role-playing experience. Like "zombies are weak against fire," or "monsters made of fire are weak against ice." If you think about it a little, they all make sense, and these are all things that D&D already sets up. Certain things are weak against certain other things and strong against yet other things. They all have these relationships. Up until that point, Japanese RPGs were ignoring all of that. They didn't incorporate those elements. It just wasn't a part of what they were doing. That's what I found kind of irritating. Simple as it may sound, that's the kind of stuff I wanted to work in. Obviously it's going to be hard to simulate the human experience of a game master and the players interacting. I couldn't be too worried about that kind of thing. But I did want to incorporate those precepts of western RPGs into the game.
>AK: A much simpler explanation for that is that Wizardry had already done a lot of those things. Throwing stars put haste on you, things like that. The most powerful spell in Knight of Diamonds can be used with a certain gauntlet. These kinds of things were already a part of... They're things I found to be really fun and engaging in Wizardry. So I just decided to incorporate those elements in our game as well.

https://retronauts.com/article/670/akitoshi-kawazu-on-the-reasoning-behind-sagas-insanity

>>4540692
horii, nakamura, and sakaguchi name wizardry and ultima as influences

>>4540692
Don't call others ignorant while being one. Read here >>4540729