/vr/ - Retro Games

>>4387037
I enjoyed KF2(US) in 1998 but these games really have not aged well.

>>4387051

I dunno, I think most of the discs are still in good condition. Did yours rot?

I played the original US and couldn't go for more than 20 minutes without getting eaten by some massive monster. I love the atmosphere but goddamn it's so slow and you die so quickly that it really puts me off.

>>4387037
>never discussed on /vr/
I hate to derail with dumb meta conversation but /vr/ is literally the only place I've ever even seen this series, dude.

>>4387037
Ive played all 3 Dark Souls, So they idea of playing an older harder outdated version makes my penis retreat inside my body.

>>4387495
>harder
At least the first game is much easier than any Souls game.

>>4387037
They just aren't popular man. Obscure games by even normal obscure game standards where a person might have heard of a certain obscure game. The same can't really be said for these games though. I never played them nor would have ever heard of them if it weren't for other people mentioning them.
>>4387051
This meme is so stupid. Good gameplay is good gameplay regardless of time. The greatest games should always be timeless. The only way a game can "age poorly" is if it wasn't even ever really good to begin with. So to say it aged poorly is just flat out wrong anyways since the truth would be the game actually wasn't ever good or in this case games.

I had the japanese KFIII as a kid, I didn't know what to do so I never finished it, but I loved wandering around that spooky place.
I always thought it was a kind of bad game, but something about it pulled me in. I was aware of how slow it was and how it wasn't basically "fun" to play, but just wandering around and fighting some fungus was enough for me.
It wasn't until Demon's Souls came out that I became aware that KF was a cult series beloved by many RPG fans in Japan.

I prefer Shadow Tower 1&2, they are basically KF except harder and with much more interesting atmosphere.

>>4387795
>I always thought it was a kind of bad game
It was kinda bad.

I do like King's Field but I think it's actually better on emulator where you can overclock it and reconfigure the control. I also think Shadow Tower has "aged better" as it relies a bit less on atmosphere although if you love first person low poly environments KF delivers some eerie ones.

I've completed all of the mainline games, just not the mobile or PSP sequels since I don't have access to them. I also played the games in Japanese, for what it's worth. The English localizations swapped so many names around that practically nothing is proportionate to the original story and setting. It's a little confusing to read over English KF message board posts discussing things like character lore.

Anyway, I thought the games were very enjoyable. Some people criticize the slow pacing, but I find it to be very relaxed. I don't care much for games that throw hordes of enemies at you and give you little room to breathe between combat. KF's gameplay is focused more on where you should be going and how to get there. If you see an intimidating foe in your path, sometimes you can just sidestep it and keep exploring.

My only complaint about the series is the lack of character development. You can't create a character build like you can in Elder Scrolls because every new spell or piece of equipment is basically just a linear upgrade from whatever you were previously using. There's maybe a handful of spells in each game, and you end up learning all of them by the time you reach the final boss.

King's Field IV has a slightly more elaborate way of managing spells and equipment, though. You have a proficiency level with every individual weapon and spell you use. For weapons, increasing your proficiency level increases attack power, and sometimes allows you to unleash a magical missile attack with the weapon. Leveling up spells on the other hand will unlock completely new effects, in addition to increases damage / healing and range or area of effect. That was a pretty nice bonus, although it made grinding a lot more time consuming.

I liked Shadow Tower does that count?

>>4387946
I've only finished the first (US) one. I had the impression that it was the Japanese mentality to steer rpgs toward zelda/metroidvania type of game play that undercut western character building sensibilities.

>>4390550
try to imagine it more as the difference between deliberate narrative in game design vs emergent narrative

you are a fixed character with his own history and abilities because the game was really only made for that guy to go through it

but for the other, the illusion of choice amounts to narratives shaped like branching trees that constantly bottleneck themselves into perfectly balanced moral opposites and every branch always has a fraction of the polish of any segment of a perfectly linear game

but after a short while with either one, you'll know what to expect happens next just from familiarity alone

I think I'll take the deliberate dungeons of King's Field over the exploded fractals of dungeon block mazes in Daggerfall any day if I have to choose between them and can't pick both

>>4387037
For some dumb reason I love the fact that you need 3 different maps to see the whole island. It's like you're an actual explorer cross referencing different sources to find real secrets.
It's a nice touch I don't find in most games. Also the fact it has no load times from beginning to end blows my mind. You could explore the whole island, teleport around and there is no loading besides the initial load of a save or whatever. It's so great.
I've only ever played whatever was released in the west and I gotta say:
King's Field > King's Field 2 > King's Field IV > Shadow Tower
King's Field is my favorite. I think it allows for the most exploration. As soon as you spawn you have options, it's great. Sort of slow in the middle if you fuck up with the potion fountain but it's not too bad.
King's Field 2 is fun, looks more visually interesting but it's sooo linear. Still a fun game though but when the first is so focused on exploration it feels like it's missing something.
King's Field IV bugs me. It starts with a tedious mine shaft filled with poison and then you have to fight xenomorph aliens. It's a total bummer.
Shadow Tower despite having the best aesthetics is just so damn annoying. I need to git gud at it but even I am too impatient. These games are hard enough without having my armor and weapons break all the damn time but this game is relentless. I went through like 4 different weapons before I even found a shop. It's crazy difficult.

This was the game that got me into Japanese as we got the original King's Field imported for PSX. My dad and I used to write down the kanji and translate them with a dictonary so we could understand what was going on and what the items did. Too bad this is retro though I'd love to talk about the PSP games.

So if I want to play the first game that was released only in Japan there is a English fan patch version for emulators right?

>>4390640

Doesn't work on more accurate emulators like mednafen.

Or real hardware for that matter.

>>4390646
How the hell do I play it then? I can't read Japanese.

>>4390653
psxfin or epsxe

>>4387037
RANK THE SERIES

>>4390937
It's trash

I only played Shadow Tower and KF1 on the Sword of Moonlight PC release.
I kinda like the outdated graphics. Gives it a unique atmosphere and charm.

I have no idea how I was able to beat Shadow Tower.
Probably the hardest game I ever finished.

>>4390937
Darksouls = Bloodborne > Dark Souls 3 > Shadow Tower 2 = King's Field 4 > Shadow Tower > Sword of Moonlight > King's Field 2 > King's Field 3 > King's Field > Dark Souls 2

>>4391057
what about Demon's souls?

>>4391057
I've played most of these and I gotta say this is a very solid ranking that I'm hard pressed to find even a small argument with

>>4391069
I'd say better than Sword of Moonlight but worse than Shadow Tower.

>>4391069
above BB, which suffers from linearity and lacks armor and magic variety

>>4390585
>Also the fact it has no load times from beginning to end blows my mind
There are load times, they're just masked by really long corridors between areas. In KF2, you can force yourself into a loading delay in one of the corridors that connects you between Harvine's Palace and the dragon fountain. The game will literally halt while the areas are trying to load. Apparently they didn't make that corridor long enough to mask the load procedure.

>>4391069
I'd put it in the same tier as BB and Dark, or maybe one tier above them.

>>4390585
>King's Field 2 is fun, looks more visually interesting but it's sooo linear

It's no more or less linear. The game just makes a stronger effort to push you toward your next goal. You can do several things out of sequence if you go around collecting keys so you can access later areas at your leisure. You can even skip 90% of the game's content and go straight to the final boss. This is why the game has multiple endings.

>>4387781
I disagree that this is what "aging" means. I think it more means the perception of certain gameplay elements within the norms of the genre as a whole.

I like King's field a great deal, even the real KF1 which is incredibly slow. I like the methodical pace of the games, but because the standard for movement in first person adventure RPGs favors faster and more dynamic movement (I'm looking at you Morrowind) the general perception of KF is that it is distinctly a product of an older time.

I don't see "aging" as a description of quality at all, merely a comment on its place in the greater continuity of gameplay and design norms.

>>4390653
There is a patch duderino

>>4391306

If the gameplay elements are the same across a wider timespan then the genre is what's stagnated and not the game that's still "fresh".

>>4391306
Morrowind always had awful gameplay. People played it for the adventure, character building and lore in most cases. Combat was always regarded as awful yet people who wouldn't have been old enough to play it at the time will not realize this and instead would likely foolishly use the buzzwords or meme if you will that it hasn't aged well in regards to combat. The problem with this in the first place is most people weren't praising the combat back then either. So to say it didn't age well in the case of Morrowind is just laughably ignorant to what people saw as standards even back then in 2004.

I played Hexen a bunch of times only in the past few years and I thought the game was fantastic. Disregarding the switch hunting for a second, the combat/gameplay I found to be fluid and fast pace. It was simple but fun unlike Morrowind's system. I would just laugh at anybody saying that games combat didn't age well because in no way do I see it that way at all.

Basically my argument is that the argument of games aging like milk or not aging well is just inherently stupid, misguided and simply misleading. It has become a meme that the retards like because it allows them to provide criticism to games without offering any real substance for their opinions and it also allows them to for the most part not really have their opinion challenged since it is such a dumb thing to say to begin with. This is why you will notice few people ever really point out how dumb this meme really is. Its because it sort of has a level of immunity that is hard to pinpoint unless you understand why people use it.

People can use that stupid meme crap if they'd like but I can also choose not to take the opinions of any person that uses that meme seriously. All what I'm saying is people need to come up with a little more substance for criticism besides just the game didn't age well.

Any clue if King's Field (Japan) will work on real NTSC-U hardware via swap disc method? I never could get a burned disc to work. (The original game, not with the translation patch)

I'll probably import the game if I actually have some means of playing it on my hardware.

>>4387495
Hello Brandon

>>4387781
>Good gameplay is good gameplay regardless of time.

Expectations for what's good gameplay change. King's Field was clunky but passable as a PS1 game, but by today's standards that equates to shit.

When gameplay is psrfectly refined like Mario it ages well. When it's poorly refined it ages badly.

>>4391284
So it was like metroid prime then? That's still pretty sweet, though. It sure as hell fooled me.
>>4391292
Interesting. I've been meaning to play it again anyway, so I'll try to do more things out of sequence. I always end up doing what I know and maybe that's why I assumed it was more linear.
>>4392401
Now I don't buy this. King's Field is just a different type of game. It may resemble something that is more popular that could be described as "more refined" like a Skyrim or whatever but you wouldn't play Skyrim if you're in the mood for a King's Field. The same way you wouldn't play King's Field if you're in the mood for Skyrim.
It's apples and oranges, dawg. Some people eat mayo with their french fries.

>>4392401
>Expectations for what's good gameplay change.

It shouldn't though. Becuase as I said good gameplay should always be good gameplay no matter if it is 2017, 2027, 2117, 3017 and so on.

A great movie stays a great movie despite the year. Good music is good music to listen to regardless of the year. I'm pretty sure going on a roller coaster will give you a rush no matter what age you get on one because that is the purpose of a roller coaster. Gaming is entertainment. Gaming for whatever reason seems to also be the only form of entertainment that gets obnoxious shitters that want to tell people like me or anyone else for that matter that these old games that may have been good at one point are no longer good for some strange pseudo science fake reasons that they try to make seem as an objective fact. The industry and too many people who play games are cancerous human beings with awful opinions and their constant desire to "prove" anything as fact shows how awful they and the industry itself really is. This is why despite being the biggest form of entertainment there is it still doesn't really get the respect one would expect. Until the cancer leaves gaming will continue to be looked at as a joke. A form of throw away entertainment only above porn and maybe drugs.

I don't know maybe I wouldn't like King's Field if I played it. Maybe I would think it is too slow and clunky. What I know for sure for myself though is just about every game I went back to that I liked as a kid I still see as good today. Nobody is going to try to socially engineer me with lame buzzwords and talking points like is so common in regards to gaming.

I just happen to find King's Field games endearing enough that one day I'll get to them when I have the time and when I get through some other games. If I am correct, then I would like it despite flaws.

>>4392275
Hello Joe

>>4392486
Standards change. Thete was a time when Street Fighter 1 seemed really cool. But it's now impossible not to compare it to later games. I really can't lay it out any more simply.

You still won't get it, you never do. But at least let it sink in that things aging well or badly is an easy concept for most people and that's why you see it so much. It's not limited to old video games as well.

>>4392275
My name is Brandon and I don't relate to anything that guy said

>>4387495
>>4392275
Also Demon's Souls is best Souls game

I remember playing super clunky first person RPGs on the PC as a kid and thinking they sucked balls compared to 3rd person turn based. Stuff that isn't good today was never actually good.

>>4392550
Which RPGs?

>5min in
>wtf is this
>heeeeelp
>quick there is a cave
>omg
>go away from me
>aaaaaaaahhhh
>maybe I go around this...
>whaaaaaaaaa
Jesus nobody told me how scary this game is.

>>4393318
It really can be scary and unsettling at times which is great, but overcoming the adversity of it all and making progress gives you a real sense of achievement. I think I'm like half way through the game, past the termite nest and I have the pirate key, not really sure but so far I love it despite how fucking obtuse it can be.

>>4393096
Those first person SSI RPGs like Eye of the Beholder, Strahd's Revenge, and Stone Prophet.

>>4392545
It's an easy concept to understand because it's intellectually lazy and lays all blame on the game.

>>4394284
Now you're saying it's my fault Street Fighter 1 is shit?

>>4394293
street fighter 1 is good you just don't understand history and what an achievement it is with the limitations of knowledge and technology they had

the ability to consider things from another's perspective and put your mind into the abstract in order to rationally consider hypothetical ideas is recognized as one of the key points of mental development and executive functioning in adult human beings, literally, when Street Fighter 1 came out, it was a good game, it did some cool and interesting things, and it is historically important today, if you don't think it's good and don't understand what historical value means, then that is because you are immature and ignorant.

>>4394498
one can understand historical importance and value yet still hold personal opinions. I can put myself in my old shoes but that doesn't change the fact that my perspective is different now than 20 years ago and I will be drawn to games that still hold up to modern standards. maybe I should force myself to eat bread and bland food only because at some point people had only that.

>>4387037
here's an old map for the JP version of the very first game's areas

http://kings-field.tumblr.com/

>>4394293
>Standards change. Thete was a time when Street Fighter 1 seemed really cool.
The game was really cool, now it's shit. You admit it was the standards that changed. Instead of questioning what the standards are, how they develop, and by what forces they change, you dump all responsibility on the game for 'aging'. That's lazy and meaningless.

>>4394561
You're still misunderstanding. When someone says something has aged badly, it's the standards having changed that they're really referring to. The phrase is a little non-sensical if you pick it apart enough, but many parts of English are that way. Again, this shouldn't be confusing, but I get that it is for sone reason so I'm trying to explain the concept in a way that makes sense. And ultimately you don't even have to agree with it, just understand what people mean when they use that turn of phrase.

>>4394512
your personal opinion has no value you fucking idiot

>>4391057
>Shadow Tower 2 = King's Field 4
are those good?

>>4394892
that's just your opinion though.

>>4394895
st2 is, dunno why he put kf4 so high though

>>4394512
>I will be drawn to games that still hold up to modern standards
Thanks for confirming that you're tasteless retard. Fuck off back to /v/eddit.

>>4394945
>posts an example of a modern movie that doesn't hold up to any standards
t2 and t3 were also shit but only in the story department, at least the effects were decent.

>>4394873
I can actually agree with this post for the most part. Except, suppose one were to say that King's Field is a shit game, it aged poorly. In my head, as you suggest, I put it in other words to say this person doesn't like King's Field because it doesn't conform to his modern standards and expectations. Fine. But I happen to be unsatisfied with the direction modern standards took with the first person dungeon crawling rpg through it's abandonment by Oblivion and dark souls. I still use Ultima underworld as the standard by which I judge a good first person dungeon crawler. And King's Field conforms very well to this standard. So when someone says King's Field aged like shit, how else do you expect me to disagree except to say it didn't age, it's modern standards that are shit?

>>4395013
>Except, suppose one were to say that King's Field is a shit game, it aged poorly.

Yeah I should make clear that something aging poorly doesn't necessarily make it a shitty game, and I wouldn't call King's Field a shitty game. Same with Street Fighter 1. It was cool then and it's still kinda cool. But the genres and games of that types have come so far that one can't help but compare it to them.

By contrast take the first Super Mario Bros. There's a game that even though it was early in the genre was so masterfully designed that it's hard to find flaws in it and any platformer it still sets a standard for the genre all these years later. That's a game that aged well. Tetris is another good example.

All shitty games age badly, but not all games that age badly are shitty. Also sometimes "shitty" games can be fun in their own right. It's all it how you use it for fun.

>>4391042
>that level where everything is invisible

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH

>>4387037
Oh gee OP maybe because they're dumb games for massive poopyfaces?

A few years ago I saw an amazing Kings Field fan site that had maps for almost all the games and galleries of monsters and equipment among other cool things
Does anyone have a link to it or an archive of it because it seems to have vanished?

>>4391659
BUT, you know, if you don't want to write all that out and just say "I had fun once but I can't play that slow shit no more."

It aged as fuck. Play the game in pic related.

>>4397304
That game is pretty cool.

>>4397304
I don't follow. Are you randomly recommending a Sega game for no reason? Or are you claiming that Elemental Master isn't fun?

>>4397774
It's a fan of Sega

>>4397774
He's saying Kings Field is shit so you should play a good game instead.

>>4397272

I've yet to find an archived link, so it appears you're out of luck. I vaguely remember the site before it went down. I think it was the only source of 100% complete treasure maps. The maps at GameFAQs are missing several things, namely the extra keys hidden in plain site in various King's Field III maps. Finding them is quite useful to sequence breaking.

>aged

>Le aged

>>4387037
The controls are weird. Feels like a tank. I hate the mechanic of rocking back and forth at enemies and swinging the sword. The environment and ambiance of the game is kindof cool, but it just feels so outdated that it is hard to really get into and play for a long time without getting fed up.

>>4398440
Yes King's Field has no strafing in first person view. It's aged like my rancid vomit when I'm sick.

>>4399249
>King's Field has no strafing in first person view.
It has.

Just went to go get King's Field 2 for emulator of course. This game is pretty fun although also pretty hard. I don't see this its aged meme here. I mean clearly it isn't for everyone, I understand this, but it reminds me of how strict older games were. It basically has its own rules it plays by that you need to adapt to. In short I've never played anything like it. Most of the gameplay design choices seem very deliberately put in the way I see it. If I find myself liking it more I'll probably go get the first game as well and just start with that.

I think most people that say when a game ages poorly I think they actually mean they don't like when a game is too difficult. I am pretty sure these people would complain about Ghosts 'n Goblins and Contra having aged but these games still play amazingly well to this day to me. Well besides the NES version of GnG but that version always sucked compared to the superior arcade version.

>>4399249
>aged

>>4391057
fag

>>4399249
>Yes King's Field has no strafing in first person view.
It's like we played different games.
>first person
only view mode
>no strafing
literally wat

>>4399416
>I think most people that say when a game ages poorly I think they actually mean they don't like when a game is too difficult. I am pretty sure these people would complain about Ghosts 'n Goblins and Contra having aged but these games still play amazingly well to this day to me

On the contrary, I think most people would say they aged well because they have simple, intuitive control schemes that haven't really changed a whole lot. They aren't really too different from current games in their genres in most ways.

Most games that age poorly are early 3D games with awkward controls and camera angles when everyone was still trying to figure that shit out. Goldeneye, Castlevania 64, etc. There are many games that came later that smoothed things out and are a lot less cumbersome to play thanks to dual analogs and somewhat standardized button placements. Tank controls in old 3D action games are a big thing that will turn lots of people off; Armored Core, King's Field, FPS/TPS on the PSX, etc.

There are other things that can cause a game to feel dated, but that's the biggest one most people will immediately feel.

>>4399416
>I think most people that say when a game ages poorly I think they actually mean they don't like when a game is too difficult

I think that's almost never what they mean. Sometimes it's made more difficult because the controls suck, but that's not an issue with difficulty, It's an issue with bad game design.

>>4399416
Ghosts n Goblins and Contra are perfect examples of games that aged very well.

>>4399416
>I think most people that say when a game ages poorly I think they actually mean they don't like when a game is too difficult
that's precisely what it means, and that they're too impatient to adapt to a game that doesn't play like modern triple A title

>>4400102
Not really.

This thread is aged like the OP. Quickly

>>4400092
This guy gets it.

Can we stop shitposting in circles? I don't care if King's Field is dated or not. That doesn't affect my enjoyment of it, so whatever.

Did anybody else notice the KF3's economy system? Apparently selling certain items to vendors will cause other vendors to gain new inventory. They don't necessarily just sell your own items back to you, they'll sometimes start to sell key items that you aren't supposed to obtain until much later in the game. If you sell the right sequence of items, you can get the Icarus Key right off the bat and warp straight to the final boss.

>>4400859
>you can get the Icarus Key right off the bat and warp straight to the final boss.
This implies that the sales people go out to adventure and find all the items, the sales people are the true heroes.

>>4400859
Can you elaborate more on this?

>>4391057
>King's Field 4 > Shadow Tower
>DaS3 that high
>no Demon's Souls
Get some taste my dude

>>4401307
>Can you elaborate more on this?

I'm not sure what the exact sequence is, but I remember that selling various keys and fragments of the Icharus key made it possible to buy all the Icharus key parts or the entire key as a single composite unit. It's a tactic used in speedruns of the game.

Otherwise, NPCs just circulate whatever items you sell to them, and you can buy them back from various other NPCs. Since you can't discard items from your inventory directly, I guess this economy system was a means to ensure you couldn't permanently screw yourself over by losing essential items forever.

>>4402796
That's some good design.