/vr/ - Retro Games

>>4388264
it's like how creatures living in 4 dimensions are projecting this reality of 3 dimensions into us and it just seems "normal"

>>4388264
Sort of. That's an oversimplification, and saying it "cannot do 2D" is grossly misleading to the point I'd just say it's false. The PS1 *does* have hardware sprite instructions, though quite often it's desirable to render them as a 3D quad instead in order to perform various effects on them (rotation, scaling, lighting, etc.) and also to conserve the PS1's limited main RAM. It's more or less the same thing modern 2D game engines do. The hardware sprite functions were mostly used for static backgrounds and such from what I understand.

In any case, it doesn't really matter. As far as the players and to some extent even the game developers are concerned, it's still 2D. The exact steps involved in the rendering pipeline are irrelevant unless you're designing the hardware. I mean, would you say Yoshi's Island is a 3D game?

>>4388264
Taking a source that calls the PS1 "PSX" seriously is impossible for me.

>>4388435
Well that's what it was called, underage

>>4388438
No it wasn't. It's something hipsters who weren't alive when it happened call it due to trivia, and other young people who fell for the meme. It was a name they toyed with in development that they scrapped before launch. Literally nobody ever called it that outside of board room meetings temporarily before launch. It was called "Playstation" until PS2 came out, after that it was called "PS1".

See how the HUD elements in this screenshot are made out of flat polygons? 2D PS1 games do that for every object.

But it's the same pedantic hand-wringing behind "Doom isn't a 3D game". It's not something a player needs to give a shit about unless they want to show off to other nerds.

>>4388449
Good post. Indisputable argument right here. I'd like to see how Saturn renders backgrounds in wireframe mode.

>>4388443
I was alive and I distinctly remember seeing the PSX abbreviation in magazines, as well as on the rental cases at my local video store. I never used the term myself, but to say that nobody used it is outright false.

Is there some reason why a flat polygon isn't 2d that I'm missing? Just because it isn't a sprite?

>>4388456
dude it's bait, don't fall for bait

>>4388443
I was a forum shitposting sony fanboy tween in 1998. You are wrong.

>>4388264
Can 3D really exist on a TV?

I guess by that logic the Atari 2600 is a 1D console, since it has no framebuffer and graphics are manipulated on a per-scanline basis.

Basically, you can think of it like this: instead of rasterizing everything onto a single flat surface as in earlier consoles, you're rendering a stack of such flat surfaces that can be independently rotated rotated and scaled. If that makes it "3D", then yes, it's "3D", but I just see it as a natural evolution of the same methods that were used in the SNES for mode 7 effects.

>>4388443
Someone post the "PSX BTFO" picture.
It was PSX.
Even though in retrospect it makes more sense to call it PS1, that's what I do, especially compared to PS2, PS3 and the fact that autistically, "PSX" exists and is something else.

>>4388469
Yes.
The engine is a 3D space in numbers, instead of 2D.

>>4388456
>>4388509
Before launch it was advertised as "PSX" in some places, nothing more. A very small amount of reading will confirm that the name was abandoned before launch.

>>4388463
There have always been hipsters who have called it PSX due to it's pre-launch name and I'm literally shaking over the revival of it here.

>4388524

>>4388527
that's not how you quote, newfag
Here I'll teach you >>4388524

>>4388452

With mednafen-saturn, perhaps you can. I know it has extensive debugging tools for the PSX module. But Saturn emulation is quite a bit newer...

>>4388524
>>4388435
>>4388443

>>4388527
>>4388529
>>4388535
>"Sony's North American division, known as Sony Computer Entertainment America (SCEA), originally planned to market the new console under the alternative branding "PSX" following the negative feedback regarding "PlayStation" in focus group studies. Early advertising prior to the console's launch in North America referenced PSX, but the term was scrapped before launch."

>>4388264
tl;dr: everything drawn on the PS1 goes through the GTE, which does 3D transform calculations.
That's it.
and it doesn't matter, the PS1 doesn't do perspective transform on textures, so you're basically just getting plain 3-point distorted sprites everywhere (and even if it did, saying the PS1 doesn't actually do 2D is still entirely meaningless)

also
>This is unlike the Saturn, which has separate 2D and 3D capabilities that can be mixed when needed or utilized separately.
as someone developing a Saturn game right fucking now, this line is basically meaningless -- it's saying that the Saturn has a background drawing processor as well (VDP2)
all sprites are drawn on the Saturn's main polygon chip, VDP1

>>4388490
>I guess by that logic the Atari 2600 is a 1D console,
honestly, that's a better comparison than this, it at least mattered with how you wrote code for the machine

>>4388452
you wouldn't see anything
Saturn games use tilemap backgrounds, like the Genesis or SNES. Even in 3D games.
on the PS1, since you're drawing all that shit out of polygons anyway, you might as well do it in 3D as a skybox, but on Saturn, you get these big flat 2D scrolling planes for free, and doing a PS1-style skybox is going to absolutely chew into VDP1's already kinda low fillrate

>>4388552

>what is "common parlance"?

>>4388524
>>4388435
>>4388443
Shut the fuck up.

>>4388264
It's bullshit. The PlayStation had a separate rendering path for pixel-copeid rectangles (versus texture-mapped triangles) and rendered them significantly faster.

>>4388559
A euphemism for you being wrong in this instance.

>>4388563
See >>4388552, you've compiled the 1% of snowflakes thinking they are cool for referring to the system as it's pre-release name, article writers included. Literally nobody who wasn't wearing a 90s version of suspenders and an ironic mustache called it anything but Playstation.

>>4388569

>>4388569
>major websites, magazines and even Konami's own fucking website
>1%
Sure thing, sweetie.

>>4388575
Yet mysteriously nothing showing Sony referring to the system as PSX, because they decided to not call it that, and that's recorded history. The fact that the damage control chart exists in the first place is proof that only a very small and sweaty minority ever called it that.

>>4388264
>henceforth PSX
Heheheheh.

>>4388580

>>4388264

>>4388585
This turns me on post more

>>4388381
>>4388564
This, and rectangles weren't even the fastest option. There are literal 8x8 and 16x16 tile opcodes with the same limitation as rectangles that were used intensely on games such as SOTN. Heck there's even a fucking manual CPU to anywhere on VRAM data copying that allows you to output physical 24bit 2D, and it's not even reserved to FMVs (think FF8/FF9 attract screens).

Whoever says 2D on the PS1 is always going to "distort" like >>4388553 is fucking retarded, and so is OP's source.

>>4388580
>The fact that the damage control chart exists in the first place is proof that only a very small and sweaty minority ever called it that.

Four years ago when this board started there were faggots like you with this exact attitude asking for proof (you can't!)
So now that a mountain of proof has been provided you moved the goalposts (gee, defensive much?)

>>4388664
Not that guy, but I think what he's saying is that the PS1's 3D polygons are sort of like distorted 2D sprites, not that 2D sprites are always distorted. I don't know enough about the PS1's architecture to know how accurate that is, though.

>>4388580
>the fact that there's this much proof proves you wrong

Unbelievable.

>>4388656
In motion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY4Jl4SqARs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n54LN4FGPuU

>>4388672
Yeah reading again he was basically describing 3D, but then he goes saying everything drawn on the PS1 goes through the GTE (which is false), so the bulk of his argument is wrong.

>>4388580
No anon, you are the damage control and a paid shill. Someone autistically PAID this faggot to impose HIS opinions on the internet.

>>4388580
>nothing showing Sony referring to the system as PSX, because they decided to not call it that
You never decided on being called an enormous twat, and yet we can all agree to call you just that.

>>4388664
What's even more funny is that OP's quote is directly referring to Dracula X's shoddy port to prove its bullshit, and ultimately just proves how much of a fuckup Saturn's architecture was if it had trouble running tile-based 2.5D games off the main GPU like the PS1 would.

Luckily there's a DF Retro video which kind of explains in far better detail what was really wrong with the Saturn port.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PxGM1np2hU

>>4388675

You've got it all wrong, Anon. This level of autistic trolling is something to *marvel* at.

>>4388694

No I'm pretty sure he's just baiting. The tantalizing part is- WHAT IF HE ISN'T?

Can you imagine?

Maybe he want to say "all 2d game on ps1 are Paparapa the raper"

>>4388264
HELP BOYS! I remember playing a game on my PS1 back in the days. The protagonist was a guy who had a machine gun as his arm. I remember that in one of the cutscenes he came out from the sewers to find himself in the ladies bathroom or somehing like that.

>>4388924
Frogger

>>4388553
You're making a Saturn game? That's sick. What's your programming environment like? Are you using JoEngine or the official Saturn libraries?

>>4388569
the worst thing about this post is that there are underage on this board who will unironically believe you

>>4388569
You are definitively wrong.

>>4388443
>It's something hipsters who weren't alive when it happened call it due to trivia,

You had anything from eastern european computer magazines to the actual boot rom of the console referring to it as PS-X, which got shortened to PSX.

PS2 was initially called PSX2 by magazines, up until the console came out with the fat PS2 graphic on it.

PS1 was the small white last revision PSX model.

>>4388524
>>4388509
>>4388443
>>4388456

here's a 1994 registration card, look whats on that list.. SONY PS-X
rekt

>>4388704
That video is half bullshit though.

The problem wasn't that Saturn SOTN didn't use VDP2 properly. It was that the game was built in a way that it couldn't have used VDP2 to 100% replicate the game, as it used extreme amounts of parallax as well as lots and lots of sprite -> sprite -> background transparency.

The game was just custom built to the PSX in every way. It did things the Saturn physically couldn't do. Short of rewriting everything from scratch, they couldn't have made a better port.

At best they could've used the mode 7 background on the clouds and properly implement the map and the load screens. But they never could've gotten the game to work with so much parallax AND transparency at the same time.

>>4389392
this kills the no-psxfag

>>4389392
>no Game Players magazine checkbox

Interplay deserved to go bankrupt

>>4388569

You're right. I grew up with a PS1 and I'd never once heard someone calling it PSX. Out of curiosity I've asked a few of these people whether they remember others calling it PSX and they don't either.

We're not saying NOBODY called it a PSX, just that few people did, and that it's usage has gone up dramatically over time *after* the PS1 was in its prime.

Because of this, the compilation image doesn't prove anything. I don't understand why people are acting like it's a big 'gotcha'.

>>4390246
>*after* the PS1 was in its prime.
You mean 1996?

>>4390246
>We're not saying NOBODY called it a PSX
Except for all the people who say exactly that.

>>4390256

People are posting the image in response to posts saying PSX wasn't used by many people, not posts saying it was never used:

>>4388569
>>4388524

>>4390246
Congratulations, you lived in the middle of fucking nowhere.

>>4390267

Triggered.

>>4388435

Get the fuck outta here.

>>4390480

Your resistance only makes his penis harder, Anon. I'm sorry....

Another thread ruined by the "lol guys it was never psx" worthless, inept subhuman.

>>4388585
This scares me.

>>4392197
What scares me is
>runs like shit because Square dumped all their polygons into a shadow mesh

>>4388946
because he's right.

>>4388264


USE PARAGRAPHS!

>>4391563
op sabotaged his thread by using that obscure term

graphics still work like this. Unity has a "2D" view mode but still renders sprites on triangle fields.

That's just wrong from a geometric standpoint. Take for example a cube made out of quad polygons. The cube is 3D since it has height, width, and depth. Then, lay the polygons of the cube flat. The resulting arrangement of six quad polygons is 2D, since it has only height and width. This dude is just poorly explaining how 2D objects were rendered using polygons as opposed to traditional sprites in PSX games.

nowadays 2d graphics are polygon shapes too

triangles are much faster than manually drawing pixels on video memory point by point

>>4388443
>>4388569
This. Unfortunately there are tons of Gen-Z losers on this board pretending to have been alive during the 90s who will repeat any dumb meme in order to fit in.

>>4389391
>eastern european

Completely irrelevant. ESL losers don't get to determine naming conventions.

>>4391563
>>4392338
>>4392441
>>4392974

>he's still going

Please stop, Anon. My quivering oft-fucked boipucci can only take so much.

>>4392974
>Unfortunately there are tons of Gen-Z losers on this board pretending to have been alive during the 90s who will repeat any dumb meme in order to fit in.

The irony is palpable. But you losers love to keep digging in because you can never admit you're wrong about anything, even anonymously where there are literally no consequences to doing so.

>>4388443
It was. Ive got magazines from the time that abbreviate it as PSX. Only people who WEREN'T alive back then would have such a problem with it.

Is "MUH MULTIMEDIA PS2 PLAYER PSX" the new "Doki Doki Panic"?

>>4393074

No, it is precisely concurrent with Dick Dock Piknik.

See also: Retron purchases and cuckoldry.

I thought the PSX couldn't do proper 3D? At least that's what N64 fags say.

>>4393186
It does an approximation of proper 3D, no need to call it "fake" 3D. On the other hand, PS1 has very good actual 2D support, but is still relegated to a framebuffer, so it doesn't work like 4th gen consoles. It but can still issue 8x8, 16x16 or custom sprite commands by specifying an X and Y coordinate in video memory. It is then only limited by the (blazingly fast, compared to 3D commands) fillrate and can spam as much stuff on the screen as the DMA channel holds. We already concluded OP is grade A bs.

>>4393203
I was being facetious, but yes, my post was a little too late in the thread for it to be relevant. Pardon my autism.

>>4393219
By the way, a common method to discern between 2D and 3D elements on a PS1 game is to check for dithering, if it's there then the sprite is polygonal, otherwise it's not.