/vr/ - Retro Games

>>4364537
System shocks are deffinetly on the same level

>>4364537
I got nothing. I wasn't a big fan of Deus Ex but I honestly cannot name a better science fiction RPG.

SNES Shadowrun

Yes, we can.

>>4364579
lol

>>4364585
This game is cyberpunk, fight me

>>4364537
Shadowrun?

>>4364537

>>4364586
being cyberpunk doesn't automatically make something good

>>4364604
Honestly, I find cyberpunk settings to be kinda overrated. Plenty of good games and movies based around it. But most of the time, its basically a totally 80's setting with just enough technological advancements to make cybernetics and hacking relevant. Feels a bit uninspired after a while.

>>4364682
A lot of people sperg at me whenever I point out that cyberpunk mainly a visual aesthetic with only 'high tech, low life' as its theme. There's a lot of dystopian, near future, and even utopian near future sci fi that gets tagged under cyberpunk for no good reason. Deus Ex itself is only partial cyberpunk and actually engages in more themes

>>4364697
>>4364682
Cyberpunk settings are one of the few settings where all the tropes make it better.

Also the new Blade Runner proves that cyberpunk is still a great setting for stories

>>4364697
the term is sadly loose now given how much people want to associate it with the 80s perspective for aesthetic in a dystopian setting and nothing else. Although, Deus Ex is actually one of the games or in media in general, that managed to put that to good use despite the kichen sink conspiracy theorist plot it had.

>>4364697
Identity is also a big reocurring theme in cyberpunk, you cant neglect on that.

>>4364537
>Is it possible to name a better science fiction game, retro or otherwise?
HL
HL2
Unreal 2k4
Quake III

>>4365052
That one high power business lesbian in hong kong is my favorite NPC I think

made me wet when I first played it

>>4365070
No
Fuck no
Multiplayer
Multiplayer

>>4365086
Not everyone is a lonely underage hipster who only plays cyberpunkesque games alone. 2k4 is a better a better game. It's a genre defining game and the game that was the end of an era.

>>4365070
Half-life is linear. The story is good, but its linear. The thing about deus ex that partially made it so special is that the story changed based on your actions AND the story is good. Not shitting on half-life, but its not as good as deus ex.

>>4365095
Not him but 2k4 is legit only good in the sense of multiplayer. The cash/betting system was hopelessly pointless, and ut99 was better in general for physics and gameplay. Not to mention
>2k4
>defining anything
It was an arena shooter that you dont even find clones of or any homage paid to. It wasnt the game changer you say it is.

>>4365095
I have more hours in multiplayer FPS than singleplayer, maybe even double as much because of their different natures, so I understand you can't compare a narrative game like deus ex or half life to a multiplayer game. The only reason someone would try to do this is because they want to take out their pathetic frustrations online by intentionally arguing something stupid as fuck

>>4365070
>HL
>HL2
>Unreal 2k4
>Quake III

None of these are science fiction - unless you consider Marvel films and Star Wars "science fiction"

>>4365106
When did you kids start labeling "linear" as a negative? What the fuck has happened to /vr/? Being linear allows the story to progress and the game to play smoothly.
>>4365112
You're fucking high if you think 2k4 was bad in any way. The best version of every mod that was popular in past Unreals. The physics were excellent and more easily adjustable. Had the best version of facing worlds and great fan made versions. Vehicles that weren't shit and were fun. You could spend all your time not playing the base Unreal game and many people did. The mods made that game and it's a big part of why 2k4 is literally (not the meme) genre defining.
>>4365114
>so I understand you can't compare a narrative game like deus ex or half life to a multiplayer game.
There's a thing or at least there was a thing called co-op. And yes you can compare multiplayer games with a single player game. Makes no sense not to.
>>4365121
Ya an alternate universe where beings fight in a gladiatorial tournament for corporations and empires. That's totally not science fiction....

>>4365106
Especially if you're comparing them as works of science fiction and want a story driven experience. The story in Deus Ex is extremely complex, with numerous characters and threads, where the half life story is barely more than a pretext to the action, especially in the first game. I would usually downplay the different paths and dialog options you can pick in Deux Ex but they're worth mentioning here because they were a bit more ambitious with it than you see in modern titles, even ones that bear the Deus Ex name (those aren't Deus Ex). It's hit or miss and usually just results in a few different lines of dialog or a character who was no longer or not ever essential to the plot dying, but it can be very cool and immersive when it works.

Deus Ex had some really great huge environments to explore too while the Half Life were one of the places where the universal studios ride philosophy of FPS design solidified

>>4365136
I don't know if you can play the "campaign" in UT2k4 co-op or not but I do not recall it being a narrative experience that competes with Deus Ex or Half Life

Maybe you can try to compare multiplayer and singleplayer games but you won't accomplish anything or learn about the medium at all

>>4365136
>When did you kids start labeling "linear" as a negative?
If the story has roughly the same quality across all branches, the linear one is objectively worse than non-linear one because of the replayability.
A good story is much harder to pull off in the non-linear game, though.

>>4365147
>>4365138
>a narrative experience
>Especially if you're comparing them as works of science fiction and want a story driven experience.
You're putting your own opinionated bias on these games. I'm just looking at them as games.

>>4365154
You're objectively (not the meme) wrong. Because the story is only part of the game. to repeat again. Being linear allows the story to progress and the game to play smoothly.

>>4365159
If all other things are roughly equal, then the non-linear is better.
>Being linear allows the story to progress and the game to play smoothly.
If one story manages to progress smoothly, and the other doesn't, they are not roughly equal.

>>4365052
>>4365053
>>4365056
>>4365058
>>4365059
>>>/v/
stop posting your shitty, non-retro webms on here.

>>4365169
>If all other things are roughly equal, then the non-linear is better.
This isn't true at all. I'm unaware of any non linear game where you can just smoothly go through the game. Deus Ex is part of this problem too. If you want a different outcome you have to go and do something you wouldn't normally do. Or you just go and do something random which is usually the more common thing. Games are suppose to be immersive and the second they start throwing requirements for alternate endings or routes it breaks immersion. Unless the player has true control but that doesn't exist much. It is interesting if a game is smart enough to trick a player into thinking that. But deus ex doesn't do that.

So great I can go google a guide and see the arbitrary list of shit I need to do to get that alternate route or ending. Man that's true immersion right there!.

>>4365156
Maybe this will help you understand: If you compare Deus Ex and UT2k4 for shooting excitement and challenge, UT2k4 will win every time in every situation. If you compare them on story and atmosphere, the opposite is true. This is true nearly across the board for singleplayer versus multiplayer games. Human opponents are always going to be more exciting and difficult to fight and the mechanics of the game will be perfected for action because that's what's important. A game that's laid out as a story meant to be progressed through by one person has a tremendous advantage in conveying complex fiction. This is why it's pointless to compare something like UT2k4 to Deus Ex, because it is an utterly foregone conclusion depending on what type of game you feel like playing. Especially since both games are among the best in their respective genres.

Even if you want to try to say I personally consider UT2k4 to be objectively more valuable because I only play multiplayer that is useless and there's no reason to come into a thread about one type of game and vulgarly state your preference for another. I've played overwhelmingly more multiplayer FPS over the past few years and I still don't feel like I need to do that..

>>4365186
>Maybe this will help you understand: If you compare Deus Ex and UT2k4 for shooting excitement and challenge, UT2k4 will win every time in every situation. If you compare them on story and atmosphere, the opposite is true.
Man you mean to tell me if I compare A to B that A may have a strength that B is lacking in and vice versa? Woah, that's deep.
>I only play multiplayer that is useless and there's no reason to come into a thread about one type of game and vulgarly state your preference for another
Not every is incapable of seeing their own bias and using objective reasoning.

We're comparing games.

>>4365185
That's what he means by roughly equal, it's just much much easier to make paths intuitive and interesting the fewer of them you're making. Deus Ex is actually a pretty nice balance of logical and linear with enough breadth to give you different things to explore. It is NOT like and Elder Scrolls game for example

>>4365204
If you make it that simple then it also breaks immersion because you play through an otherwise linear game and then "Oh man a wild choice of options appears!". Deus Ex is very guilty of that shit.

>>4365196
Yeah, so when you have two examples of something that have a very easily definable difference in how they work that will consistently cause one to be overwhelmingly strong in one area but weak in another, they can't really be compared usefully. Especially when the two examples are relative extremes like a singleplayer FPSRPG with a 50 hour long campaign and hours worth of dialogue and the other is a fucking arena shooter

I'm being extremely patient with you and I will start to use car metaphors if you don't stop

>>4365208
Deus Ex presents it in a natural way though. You're a super-machine gone rogue and all the major players in the world see that and therefore your value to them. They force-feed JC ideology and propaganda at all possible chances, so setting up the ending to be a personal battle in weighing the options was about as well-done as possible. One of Deus Ex's greatest strengths is in how they delineate what the NPCs what you to do and what you actually have to do.

>>4365218
>I'm being extremely patient with you and I will start to use car metaphors if you don't stop

Same here since I don't see the argument of how you can't compare games. Especially a FPS to a FPS.

>>4365219
>Deus Ex presents it in a natural way though.
It's annoying clear in Deus Ex to the point that you know exactly what is coming. Either some NPC talk, some ore fighting, or some option. I guess some would call that "natural". I call it immersion breaking.

>>4365228
Specifics? You seem to be contradicting yourself.
>"Oh man a wild choice of options appears!"
>you know exactly what is coming
These are at odds with each other.

>>4365185
>This isn't true at all.
It is. Let's assume that you have the source code for the non-linear game A.
Then you hire the programmer to create the linear version of this game, let's call it B.
If you carefully choose two statistically significant control groups and make them play games A and B twice, it would be reasonable to assume that:

a) The second playthrough would be more enjoyable on average for the game A
b) During the first playthrough, more people on average would be able to make more satisfactory choices for themselves
>I'm unaware of any non linear game where you can just smoothly go through the game.
So?
>you have to go and do something you wouldn't normally do
This is one of the main selling points of the video games.
And chances are higher than I would do something I wouldn't normally do in the linear video game. I will do it just to go forward because there wouldn't be any other choice aside from quitting.
>Games are suppose to be immersive
No. Games are supposed to have a gameplay. And probably an explicit or implicit failure state. That's it.
>and the second they start throwing requirements for alternate endings or routes it breaks immersion
>if a game is smart enough to trick a player into thinking that. But deus ex doesn't do that
That's your personal opinion. Mine is the opposite. Both can be safely discarded as statistically insignificant.

>>4365229
What? One is hyperbole I admit but that's how Deus Ex plays.
>>4365232
>Let's assume that you have the source code
I'm just talking about the games man.

>>4365245
>What? One is hyperbole I admit but that's how Deus Ex plays.
>not even remotely attempting to answer the question or defend your claims
Ok nice trolling m8 you really got me

>>4365247
I don't understand the question? The whole game is like that if that's what you mean? Can you really not tell when something is going to happen like I said?

>>4365221
"this off-road truck isn't as fast around laguna seca as this sports car, it's not as good"

You CAN compare anything, including apples to oranges, but especially when you reach the extremes of some category and you have two things that were made with dramatically different goals and are typically used in dramatically different ways even though they share technological similarities any comparison you could make between them is a foregone conclusion and would only be made by someone who's completely stupid or someone who has some other goofy reason to disingenuously argue something.

>>4365245
>I'm just talking about the games man.
So am I. Ok, maybe it was too abstract. Let's try it like that:
You take Baldur's Gate and make the linear game out of it.
Everything is the same, but you have only one specific PC and you can do the quests only in one specific order.
Everything else is exactly the same.
Open source Infinity Engine implementation is out there, so it's doable.
There is not a *snowball chance in hell* that people would like this game better than the original one, especially during the second playthrough.

>>4365248
That's a different subject, whether the game/plot is "predictable" is more subjective and not really worth arguing about. What I'm wondering is where you feel that offered choices are "forced" and break immersion in the game. Did the Renton subplot feel forced, even though you could completely skip it? Was it the choices in telling Alex and Jaime to stay or come with you that felt forced? Should the game have had no dialogue options?

>>4365257
A truck isn't a car...

>You CAN compare anything
We aren't... We are comparing to video games. Two FPSes.

Like I know the cyberpunk fanbase gets a lot of flak for being simpletons but between you and this anon >>4365259 you really support that stereotype.

>>4365259
>abstract
Big word man. Too cerebral for me. I like how to support your opinion that you need make hypothetical examples. It's kind of amusing so keep it up.

>>4365263
>That's a different subject, whether the game/plot is "predictable" is more subjective and not really worth arguing about
Actually this is very important to how much value should be placed on your opinion. You're a simpleton to say the least if anything really surprised you in Deus Ex or you thought the non linearity of it was really something that great.

>>4365267
Name three games with plots that did surprise you.

>>4365268
Keeping it retro. Klonoa, Resident Evil, and Simon's Quest. Off the top of my head.

>>4365272
Should point out those are all "linear trash" also.

>>4365272
>Resident Evil
kek, all that needs to be said

>>4365264
And these two types of FPSes aren't worth comparing because depending on what you want out of a game right then the choice between them will be absolutely obvious. A truck isn't a car give me a fucking break. A multiplayer game isn't a singleplayer one.

Why don't you explain what you think makes UT2k4 better so we can establish a list of the advantages of multiplayer versus singleplayer games

>>4365276
>kek
See kid back when RE came out no one knew what the story was going to be. Do spam some more gen z speak at me though.

>>4365281
Listen simpleton. I'll go real slow.
2k4 and Dues EX are both FPSes.

>>4365264
>It's kind of amusing so keep it up.
To keep up what exactly? My point is that linear game is superior to the non-linear one if everything is roughly the same. I've made my point with Baldur's Gate.
Do you think that the linear version of Baldur's Gate would be better?

>>4365293
I don't know what your point is anymore. Don't care either. I just was talking about games.

>>4365293
>I don't know what your point is anymore.
Ok, I would repeat it: "linear game is superior to the non-linear one if everything is roughly the same. "
>>4365297
>I just was talking about games.
So am I.
>Don't care either.
And yet you still reply.

>>4365297
you are terrible at talking about games

>>4365284
You realize that Deus Ex never pretended to have a super mysterious plot right? It literally shows you the bad guys and the conspiracy in the opening video.

what a stupid thread even by this boards standards

>>4365305
I never said anything about the plot. The other anon brought up plots.

>>4364537
Almost any of them.

>>4365179
>non retro webm
>completely ignores other non retro games being discussed in the thread

>>4364697
Deus Ex is a military near future scifi.

There's really nothing in it that largely implies cyberpunk. It's also not a visual aesthetic at all. It's just the motif you mentioned 'high tech, low life'

If you had an alien world with weird pseudo-organic technologies and shit but the same basic economic strata etc... it'd still be cyberpunk. Alien cyberpunk but still cyberpunk. Sure you might not resonate with the highrise viscous leaking mountain peaks to the underpit flows of tar-mucous that power the Zalorgamorg Calculating Nest outside the surrounding chitinous domed structures that make up central tradehub of Eztradune and the destitute forests of interwoven the local worms with the silken fiber optic spiderwebs of electronet the lost-kin connect to underground portals into the hub cities underground networks. But make no mistaken, it's low life and high tech.

>>4365121
All of those things are literally Science Fiction.

>>4365351
a webm of a non-retro game. is that so hard to understand, retard? i singled you out because you're posting the webms in other threads. this entire thread doesn't belong here.

>>4365179
pretty sure those are deus ex 1

>>4365383
It really is an aesthetic and inspired by actual punk rock counterculture. If you only have high tech, low life and no punkish aesthtic, slang, etc it's typically just dystopian sci fi. Because it's so specific, it started being used for all kinds of different subgenres of dystopian sci fi, even up to postmodernism. It's crazy how defensive cyberpunk fans are of it, talking about how it's more 'relevant' today when it's most an 80s mindset and countercultural trends reexploring 60s literature

>>4365179
Deus ex runs on unreal 1. Its retro.

Maybe you should try getting a job?

>>4365435
>>4365463
it's not retro.

>>4365652
Yes it is

id also argue serious sam is too but in the case of deus ex it uses a stock version of the unreal engine 1 with minor tweaks(unlike duke nukem forevers which is a mutated unreal 1) which means it uses tech from 1997(it can even run on a power vr card), lastly it runs on windows 95

The mods allow it so you are wrong.

Pardon me but BACK IN ALABAMA, a guy with a tattooed FOREHEAD is gonna get us all KILLED.

>>4365673

>>4365673
Were a 100% BLACK

>>4365689

>>4365657
it's not. neither is gothic which this guy also spams on occasion.

>>4365750
>spams
Get lost, you're the one spamming

>>4365759
struck a nerve? go back to posting your gothic threads on /v/.

>>4365759
Cyberpunk kiddie getting upset.

>>4365750
What are you gonna do about it huh?

>>4365764
>>4365769
You're just like a Chinaman!

>>4365773
leave the thread knowing how pissed off you are and how much my comments will eat awayvatvyou for years to come.

>>4365793
Curse you anonymous!!!

>>4365425
>thinking that I was the one posting the videos
>not just posting in all the other "retro" threads
Sure sounds like you qualify for the spectrum

>>4365462
>If you only have high tech, low life and no punkish aesthtic
That is the punk aesthetic.

Cyberpunk is dystopian scifi. It's a sub-genre.

As for punk punk culture is generally defined as from wiki, "includes a diverse array of ideologies, fashions and forms of expression, including visual art, dance, literature and film. The subculture is largely characterized by anti-establishment views and the promotion of individual freedom."

You defining punk as something that needs to be a certain way is anti-punk. If aliens want want to slap gooey bioluminescent multispectrum jelly filled horns on their meatdecks then so be it rather than metal spikes. That doesn't make them less punk. That just makes you uncomfortable with your alienation with their form of expression that glorifies the punk ideology. That's a you problem, not a cyberpunk problem.

>>4366110
>You defining punk as something that needs to be a certain way is anti-punk.

Rather to clarify that ambiguity. Defining punk as "a specific look or form" that needs to be a specific way is anti-punk.

Clearly a thing that specifically is conformist to establishment without any form of irony or sarcasm isn't punk because it's by definition the opposite of the ideology. But outside of that, anything goes. Plus, if you think you can get away with telling the lost-kin they are punk, you're gonna regret that once they show you how they use plumbuses on bitches like you.

>>4364537
Retro: System Shock 1
Non Retro: Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey

Having said Deus Ex is an excellent game and pretty worthy of its praise overall.

>>4366110
>>4366118
There are established punk aesthetics, Anon. You can screech about what's true punk and what isn't, what are imitations, but the term as its used is based on predefined trends. Telling me that it's antipunk because the definition has no set definition is incompressible, what you're saying is absurd. Why do you think there are terms like 'post punk' or post whatever?

>>4365138
>story in Deus Ex is extremely complex
no, it's no more complex than any cRPG that came before it in terms of what you CAN do in it. Or maybe the word you're really looking for convoluted to describe it.

Just because it has player-driven story doesn't necessarily mean it's objectively better than a linear but very well-paced story.

>>4366297 Redpilled https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1bcm4sczN0

>>4366297 This cyber punk game was actually inspired by Matrix and Ghost in the Shell.

>>4366293
Apparently you can't read.

Wanna try this game myself but I heard there's a patch that rescales the HUD and fixes the tiny text problem, anybody got the patch? My copy is gog goty latest ver.

>>4365673
>>4365689
>>4365690
90% of faggots that pretend to be fans of Deus Ex have only watched a couple meme YouTube videos

>>4366997
You got a single fact to back that up?

Convince me not to try invisible war.

>>4367029
I would like to be your chamberboy

>>4367031
kek, forgot all about that one
Except I'm pretty sure he says he would love to be that black homosexual's chamberboy

>>4367029
You can slaughter an entire school of lolis in sailor outfits and exploit their corpses with the most outrageous ragdoll physics engine in history. Surely no reputable man would want to play a game so immoral.

>>4367041
fuck me installing now

>>4367029
-there's a magrail dart launcher that sets people on fire
-there's an smg that launches robot spiders, and you can mod it, along with most any other gun, to have explosive bullets

>>4364537
Yeah. Chrono Trigger.

System Shock 1 or 2

>>4364589
my man knows the score; snatcher, deus, system are the ones

>>4364604
No, but making a good game like Snatcher does.

>>4367225
>>4367041
There must be alot of technical problems if thats the reason it gets mixed response.

>>4367858
>>4367029 is meant to be sardonic, anon
It was rushed as hell to get it out the door, and it had very demanding (for the time) PC specs, due in no small part to the lighting system. On modern systems, it apparently reliably crashes due to how level transitions work.
The Xbox version is a joke; stack 5+ bodies on top of each other to cut the already suboptimal framerate in half due to MUH HAVOX, even though individual maps are claustrophobically small relative to DE1.
It's also hilariously easy to get outside the level boundaries, even on the console version.
It's really a shame what a piece of garbage it is from a technical standpoint.

And now, we may never get another DE again, due to SquEnix's trainwreck handling of Mandkind Divided.

>>4365652
>Deus Ex 1
>not an exception
I don't see you going in Thief threads and acting autistic over them posting about Thief 2 (which was made in 2000)