/vr/ - Retro Games

>>4345324
Because it's peddled as being this thing that ruins a game and people used to make all kinds of crazy claims like beating Punch Out was impossible on them. So now when it's brought up it's typically assumed the person is trolling about it.

>>4345324
>i can't beat mario because damn input lag

>>4345337
I can't wait for the day I have a laptop that can emularte Saturn games well enough so I can throw this in a trash heap once and for all.

>>4345324
Did you watch the video? That's not why people downvoted it.

>>4345342
>downvoted
like
clockwork

>>4345340
Did you take that picture in your parent's basement?

>>4345351
No I took it in my storage room. That and >>4345337 are in the same house.

>>4345337
What game is that?

Because emufags can't handle the truth. While the lag may be unnoticeable by most people, it is still there, no matter how you spin it. The emufags claim of "zero input lag" on anything is inherently bullshit.

>>4345381
I think it's Monster World IV. Not sure though.

>>4345381
monster world iv

>>4345381
Monster World IV! Amazing!

>>4345324
Because, like most fanbases, there's 2 sides: the people that say "the character better be jumping even before I press the button, that's how much lag it should have" vs. the "oh wow not this input lag faggot again"

>>4345324
Some people can't accept they're getting an objectively inferior experience even if it doesn't really affect them personally.

Why so many input lag apologists in this thread?

Haven't we had this same thread already or am I having a deja vu?

>>4345389
Few people say it doesn't exist in any way. They just say they don't notice it enough to care.

>>4345389
Why is it specific to emulators? Shouldn't it affect the entire computer?

>>4345502
Yes. It does. Every system with a background OS has inherent input lag.

>>4345486
Weekly. They're obsessed with how others play games, it's fuckin weird.

>>4345510
What doesn't have a background OS of some kind?

>>4345518
Almost all /vr/ consoles.

>>4345518
Consoles have virtually none.

Most input lag on a normal pc is beyond human perception though so it doesn't really matter.

>>4345486

This topic is used routinely as /vr/ troll material. So was "it was *never* called the PSX! REEEEEEEEEEEEEE!" until some glorious Anons banded together in a righteous brotherhood and crafted a finely-wrought image macro reply which was then used to mercilessly slay that fell trollbeast, leaving all of /vr/ free to discuss their childhoods together in amicable fellowship.

Just in case you were wondering.

>>4345528
input lag is glaringly noticeable to anyone who has used the real hardware extensively, hence why people who never have don't complain

>>4345527
>>4345528
Is there any information on how they worked?
I'm taking a lecture on operating systems and am curious about that stuff.

>>4345531
What's the real hardware for a standard personal computer?

>>4345532
Old console games ran on the raw hardware. You could say the game is the OS.

>>4345534
what are you talking about? emulating older computers or are you trying to suggest that emulators are running on a computer which is technically "real" hardware?

>>4345532
goddamn how dumb are you?

>>4345540
goddamn how mad are you?

>>4345539
Things aside from emulation like browsing the web. If lag is everywhere such things should be effected as well.

>>4345324
cause it's a meme like disc rot, laser drive failure, scalers (framemeister etc.) and cap replacement

>>4345552
you are a very stupid person. the reason why emulation is inherently riddled with input lag is because emulators by their very nature emulate HARDWARE through SOFTWARE on a foreign machine never designed to run the games in the first place. This is as you might imagine enormously taxing, and as the age of the hardware decreases, the difficulty presented in emulating said hardware climbs exponentially. Why do you think fifth gen and up emulation is in such a pitiful state?

>>4345538
So the game programmer had to cover stuff like input and output even for platforms like the PS1?

>>4345531

This is >>4345337 >>4345340 here. I'm in my 40's, grew up on real hardware and keep some arounf for what I like but can't emulate well.

I have no issue at all with input lag with anything and fighters are one of my favorite genres.

>>4345563
The PS1 had a standard graphics library by then due to having fast enough hardware, but other than that, yes.

>>4345569
thank you for your opinion, no one asked for it

>>4345561
Is there a big difference between handling the input for an Atari 5200 emulator and a N64 emulator?

>>4345575
>as the age of the hardware decreases, the difficulty presented in emulating said hardware climbs exponentially
reading comprehension. newer hardware is affected more harshly than older hardware

>>4345571
Were any PS1 games written in MIPS assembly or did everybody use higher languages such as C?

>>4345583
The Atari is significantly older than the N64.
The question was whether there's a difference in how emulators handle input. Obviously N64 emulators have to do other things but input seems to be consistent, you should even be able to let the native OS handle things.

>>4345572
Not an opinion and I didn't need to be adked. That guy was making a false claim. I was setting him straight.

>>4345606
well of course there's a difference in how emulators handle input! every emulator is coded by different people in different languages with varying degrees of proficiency, with schematics ranging in quality. hence why official emulators by nintendo and sony for instance are great (i know that at least nintendo has an entire california based team specifically for emulator development) - the point being that both have access to official documents and schematics from the companies themselves.

what do you mean by "native OS"?

>>4345634
>what do you mean by "native OS"?
The OS in which the emulator is run. On Windows you have XInput for instance.

>>4345641
varies by emulator

>>4345531
Thanks for your opinion but it's not true

>>4345324
Because crt shitposters are insufferable.

>>4345324
Probably because they're annoyed with how over-exaggerated people make it out to be.

>>4345324
Many people that play video games don't understand input lag and what causes it, so they lash out. Input lag makes some games impossible while others just slightly harder. As long as one goes digital to digital, or digital to analogue, there is no lag, but going analogue to digital(TV) is bad because the new TV upscales the old game to make it look better, yet introduces a lag which varies Lag can be as bad as a second and as light as a fraction of a second.

>>4345821
Saying an old game can't be appreciated on nothing but a CRT whose limitations hide the limitations of the sprites is wholly different than trying to beat an extremely difficult game based on reflexes with a lag handicap.

>>4345654
It's only true if you haven't tried to connect an old system to a newer TV, but even then I admit there are many exceptions. If you go from an emulator or an all digital hardware system to a new TV the issue is moot, but basically if you mix old and new hardware is where lags rears its ugly head. I will say that one's skill level determines how bad the lag handicap will be, so there's that.

>>4345561
What about other demanding applications? Do people playing Cr*sis or W*tcher 3 experience it as well?

>>4346678
They're mistaken. The nature of emulators(software pretending to be hardware) and how difficult is it for the host computer is not the same as lag. Any performance issues are related to the host processor not being able to handle the simulated workload. Hey, I'm not an expert, but I've been emulating for 12 years or more. So any lag experienced with an emulator that is not interfacing with a CRT is completely the fault of the CPU and not some artificial lag caused by an upscale, which is what causes true lag.

tl;dr if the sound ever echos, your computer is weak for emulation, but once you get that down, lag comes in when you have a new TV automatically upscaling an old image.

>>4346678
And that is also another kind of lag strictly related to performance and programming of the games themselves. So, yes, but not for the reason that Mega Man 2 has lag when played from a real NES and cartridge connected to a modern TV, which does you the favor of upscaling the image at the cost of so many odd fractions of a second per second.

>>4345324
Some people are more sensitive to input lag than others.

People who arent sensitive to it dont understand what the people who are are talking about, they assume its being used as an excuse for lack of skill.

People who are sensitive to it find the quality of play ruined, they think the people who arent sensitive to it are missing out on better play experience.

Honestly all the rage can be avoided if input sensitive people just let the non input sensitive people play the game the way they want and not give them grief for it.

Some peoples brains can just autocorrect the lag better than others. Input lag only really matters in competitive play like with fighting games against other players. But for single player its totally fine (if youre not sensitive to it).

Also the amount of lag matters, a little bit is fine for the majority of people.

If you are playing on an early LCD from the mid 00s, yeah the lag will be bad.

But on modern OLED TVs its almost non existent, mine has around 0.021 seconds of lag, and my RGB SCART to HDMI converter/scaler makes around an additional 0.017 seconds. So total 0.038 seconds, I dont perceive any lag. I tossed out my 25 inch Panasonic CRT after running comparisons and not noticing any difference.

>>4346692
It's not always the CPU's fault, controller APIs are another culprit.

>>4346701
I agree with you, great post, but I assure you that pulling off wall jumps in the original Super Mario Bros. is nearly impossible with input lag, heck even without it most think it's impossible with hacks. I can pull off SMB wall jumps with or without lag, but with lag it becomes a monumental effort. Your numbers are very fascinating and appreciate you posting them.

Would you agree that the only way to avoid lag 100% is to go analogue to analogue for classic gaming? Or what? It would seem that avoiding an analogue-to-digital situation would circumvent that issue, or am I off base?

>>4346701
Playing Sonic or Megaman games with added input lag is one of the most effective forms of torture around.

>>4346709
You're right. Thank you. I guess that one's more fuel against emulation, but don't get me wrong, I love emulating and do it all the time, especially for games that are not available for sale anywhere.

>>4346715
>Would you agree that the only way to avoid lag 100% is to go analogue to analogue for classic gaming? Or what? It would seem that avoiding an analogue-to-digital situation would circumvent that issue, or am I off base?
Not him, but analog-to-digital (or digital-to-analog) conversion does not, on its own, add any appreciable lag (we're talking nanoseconds here). What adds lag in upscalers is buffers and processing time. For example, a simple line multiplier like the OSSC only buffers a few scanlines, so the lag added is negligible even though its output is digital. A Framemeister buffers a full frame and does a bunch of fancy image processing, so it adds a bit over a frame of lag as a result.

>>4345337
I beat Punch Out on the Snes emulator for the Supercard DSTwo for the Nintendo DS.

>>4346738
You're right, thank you for the correction there. I guess I was using the digital marker as it were as such since the lag issues are inherent in the upscalers in them that are naturally not present in their analogue counterparts.

OK, and do you mean that the lauded Framemeister actually causes some lag?

>>4346738
(And I'd like to add that I am one of the people that seems to notice small fractions of seconds of lag, though I do not claim to appreciate nanoseconds.)

We're no different than car guys in some ways. :)

>>4346715
I would agree the best way to have lag free gaming is CRT. If someone is sensitive to lag I would certainly recommend it.

>>4346750
>OK, and do you mean that the lauded Framemeister actually causes some lag?
Yes, around 20ms, which is actually remarkably low given the quality of its deinterlacing. It's reasonable to criticize it for not reducing the lag further for purely progressive sources, but still, 20ms isn't bad at all, especially compared to most PC emulators or the analog video processing applied by most HDTVs.

>>4346763
*nods* Plus the CRT scanlines hides the jaggies which many believe was taken into account by the developers. We're really not being Luddites when we say that playing the old games on CRTs are the best and only way to go for authenticity, regardless of today's tech', younger readers who may not know that that fact.

>>4346764
To be fair. I'd have to agree that 20ms of lag would be hard for most people in most gaming situations to spot, and one could even adjust for it. Still..heh I feel like I'm sounding like a PC Master Race asshole. Muh CRTs..

>>4346750
Not him, but yeah the framemeister has lag as all scalers/converters do. But the framemeister has a better processor in it than those cheap eBay ones do, so its less than what you would normally get.

>>4346778
>all ... converters do
Again, be careful with that. Conversion alone does not necessarily mean lag. A good example is those cheap Wii HDMI converters; all they're doing is digitizing the YPbPr output and sending it out in HDMI format, so they're effectively lag-free. Watch out for the ones that promise 720p/1080p output, however, as those add a bunch of lag.

Actually, my ideal retro gaming setup is a CRT PC monitor with an OSSC and a cheap HDMI-to-VGA converter. No lag, insanely sharp, readily available, works equally well for 15/24/31kHz sources, and no audible flyback whine (which I found irritating even back in the '90s). Just waiting for a good solution for getting composite video into the OSSC to present itself.

>>4346828
I still have a retro windows 98se machine with CRT monitor, I still need to get a VGA cable for my Dreamcast to enjoy Dreamcast at its best. For now my RGB cable is good.

Steam Link doesn't have input lag.

>>4345324
Because lots of retards think they're Goku when in fact they've been smoking weed, popping bars, and drinking beer all week.

Basically, lag = klonopin side effect

If you're not on speed when you play vidya, you can't complain about input lag.

>>4345531
Mother fucker I'm in the PAL region, do you know how much faster emulation is?

>>4346659
You could say that but I have the opposite take that it's only modern screens that now have a chance to really make these games shine.

I get that some people like the look of a crt, but not everyone does. And for some reason people who prefer crts tend to be very pushy about their choice being the only good one. Usually when I mention I happen to strongly prefer modern displays it starts a line of shitposting where the crt fan insists I must only think that because I must be young or something.


Hence why I call your ilk insufferable. Just look at the setup for this thread. It's all well and good that you enjoy crts, but your opinion isn't universal. I don't even understand why any of you care at all what someone else uses.

Input lag is one of those things that very rarely actually exists and is typically an excuse bads use for dying.

>>4347138
input lag always exists, it just exists in varying levels.

>>4346843
Wrong, some people are naturally more keyed-up and have faster reflexes and reaction times-and perceptions of-details in faster time than you, without drugs.

>>4346659
I would disagree with that though. I think new displays make them look better. >>4345337

That's one of the great things about gaming these days though, we can choose. I always hated crts even before I knew something better was coming. Others liked it then and still do now. Its win win.

>>4345324
Because it's non-existent and those who can't play on a different controller will bitch about an imaginary input lag to avoid the fact that they just suck at a game. Either that or they're autistic nostalgia fags who can't accept the fact that not everyone wants to buy an ancient console just to play a game for "muh authentic experience".

It does appear on some hardware/software, but if chink android phones can emulate games without input lag then that hardware is in a minority.

The "everything has input lag" fags are correct, but it's unnoticeably low and will not affect your game experience whatsoever, unless you're already more than pixel perfect/frame perfect, which most people aren't since not everyone is a speedrunner.
And this lag is equal on the native console, at best it's only a couple of dozen ms better.

>>4345324
>36 vs 24

Statistically insignificant

>>4346709
The real culprit if there is any is that an emulator draws the entire oicture to a "virtual screen" or "framebuffer" before tha graphics card pushes that image to whatever monitor you use. Retro hardware didn't have enough memory to store the screen image and would draw the pixels line by line as soon as the computation was done for said pixel it would be pushed through to the screen as the crt was scanning. What this means is that an emulator can at best output the picture to an lcd after a real hardware has finished the last line of a screen. However due to persistence of vision and how crts work and how often a game will scan for input and how often or quickly game code will implement changes to the graphics due to input and/or if the game I'd programmed to be able to make changes while the screen is drawing etc it all becomes fuzzy and likely will change by a game by game basis even. And considering that the emulator is capable of running many times faster than real hardware it becomes even more fuzzy.

But yeah at least 1 frame of draw lag on the screen, this this doesn't mean though that the input has lag when reaching the emulator, only that the screen drawing is behind.

>>4345340
Faggot

>>4345324
Same reason any poorfag gets butthurt when you point out they can't afford nice things.

>>4345324
Who fucking knows. They try to act like input lag isnt a big deal but they are probably the same people who will claim that super metroids controls feel "sluggish".

>>4347310
>It does appear on some hardware/software, but if chink android phones can emulate games without input lag then that hardware is in a minority.

Except they can't. Any app running in Android has enormous input lag which is very easy to notice just from casual playing.

You're making a stupid argument about how casuals can't notice this shit when they really can.

>>4345340
I'd be saying fuck crts too if i had a crappy one like yours LOL

>>4348526
Ohh I know it's a hunk of junk, but I don't think high end oned really look any better so I'm not going to waste money on one.

>>4348501
Android doesn't have input lag and it was proven

>>4348501
Maybe he's so casual he can't even notice Android lag.

You guys do realize that a modern computer with a good emulator (even with a modern flat panel and bluetooth gamepad) will have LESS input/output lag then the REAL thing? I.e. NES, SNES, Genesis, etc.

>>4345641
>On Windows you have XInput for instance.
Direct Input is older than XInput and a Windows things.

>>4349072
Yes. If you had read the thread you would know that we emulate and use hardware. Some do a third, which is to emulate with hardware, like a clone system that auto-dumps the ROM from the cartridge.

>>4349072
You do realize you have no clue how any of this works, right?

How does input lag work with a mouse? The pointer gives you a fairly direct feedback on the input. Most 90s consoles had mice and the emulators support them without problems.

>>4349096
PS/2 works without delay. USB and wireless have input lag.

you cucks need to stop bitching and enjoy gamimg more

>>4349263

But then how would we dickwave on a Bolivian cheese-carving forum?

>>4349072
>You guys do realize that a modern kid on the internet believes anything it reads on the internet
FTFYK

>>4345337
It wasn't that beating punch out was impossible it's that you had to be familiar with how input worked.

The old controllers were a lot slower to send information to the console. The input travels faster if it's going down hill so everyone had to hold their controls in upright positions. If you let it slide into your lap or if you were sitting at the same elevation as the console it would slow down your input.

An NES controller with the cord at 45 degree angle has about the same input speed as our modern tech.

Because they realize that they've been outwitted and their method of playing games is inferior.

Will turning Vsync on in any emulator add more lag? I'm trying to figure out if Fusion has input lag with Vsync on, but it's hard to tell.

>>4345324
because they are ultra poor and can't afford 50$ for a real console

>>4349434
oh and their mom won't let them have a CRT

>>4349348
The Japanese actually used that as a show of skill, proving they could still play the games even with bad input. It's why if you look at many pictures of them, they sit right on the floor so the controller cord lays flat. You may have thought they were just too poor for a chair but really it's them sending a signal "I'm hardcore!"

>>4349249
So should I connect my mouse over PS/2 even if it's via an adapter?

>>4349639
Probably not because all adapters have a delay themselves. Just get a PS/2 mouse. They're cheap.

After years of playing platformers on the original hardware and almost always making sure to jump at the very edge of ledges, input lag frustrates me to no end. Rhythm games are nigh unplayable with it.
I don't really mind it in less demanding games though, so I can understand why the insistent LCD-poster who plays Monster World IV has no problem with it.
>>4349375
Vsync always adds 1 or more frames of input lag, no matter the application.
>>4349072
Weak post
>>4349348
Strong post

>>4346717
I beat mega man x running on SNES9X with a 8 year old laptop though a mini projector, with a ps1 pad thorugh a usb converter. Input lag was real, didnt make the game harder, and took me less time to get to used to than playing goldeneye on an orignal n64 controller

>>4349680
>all adapters have a delay
Nope
>i don't know how mice work
Yup

Mice that support USB and PS/2 have a controller that switches to PS/2 mode when used with the adapter. A PS/2 mouse with a longer cable has more delay.

>>4345324
Because its not true

Computers now are alot newer and powerful compared to old games like n64 and snes

The people against emulators are just trolls trying to ruin other peoples fun

fags will say, ''welp, inputa leg is someTIN ju hab to deeeeel with nao, GIT UZD TU IT''

>>4350159
T. Brainlet

>>4345324
people who are bad at vidya like to have something to blame

>>4345324
>Play FF origins on Vita, emulated
>Play FF2 on wonderswan crystal
>sell both because Vita is now like playing in slow motion and the wonderswan is impossible to look at (literally)

Fuck this gay earth

>>4345324
Coz they own raspberry pi's.

>>4350159
..And that's the most stupid post I've read all day on the entire Internet.

>>4350209
t. unskill who can't beat mario because input lag

>>4345324
Because 9 times out of 10 said lag is a result of an inept person doing something wrong with his setup/emulator then crying about how everything is terrible. Like using emulators that were discontinued a decade ago on with old cheap LCD, or even worse, a laptop, paired up with shitty chink gamepads.

>>4345531
Surprise!
You are now aware that Original Hardware has input lag as well and that difference between a good setup and original hardware+crt is ~1 frame or less. This was measured by the same guy fags like you like to cite as a holy bible of input lag research.
Enjoy your placebo effect I guess.

>>4345342
Did you mean "disliked"?

>>4352121
Sir. You are retarded.

>>4345342
We found the redditfag

>>4349348
>An electrical signal being effected by gravity.

Nigger, you best be jestin...

>>4352186
good answer here's your (you)
now go back to your corner and cry about lag some more

>>4352121
The original hardware hooked up to a CRT has no lag.

>>4352438
The same guy who get quoted a lot on CRT thread used shitty setup for his emulator+lcd setup which made the constantly quoted research with "horrible input lag" irrelevant. Also he did not include a test sample with te original hardware and just assumed that the lag on it was 0, anf got critticized for that.
A year later he did the same thing with original hardware+crt and much better emulator setup+good LCD.
Result was that original hardware with the same test he used last year had 2-3 frames of lag, while emulator in same instances had ~3-3.5 frames of lag. In most instances there was 1 frame difference between original and emu, in some there was 1 frame delay for emu. The lag-fags saltmountain could eclipse the sun. /vr/crt/ does not like to mention this.
Dig it up if you want, I don't store this faggotry on my HDD.

>>4352121
Wow WHAT a fucking retard. There are hundreds of people that have input lag videos on the net, measuring many different hardware/software setups.

>>4352438

Wrong, most retro systems have 3 or 4 frames of input lag.

>>4352581
>laggy old systems and CRTs

Nope, no lag if they're set up properly. I've proven it, so I don't know what anyone else is smokin'.

>>4352507
Nor should you store utter bullshit on your drive. Original hardware and an old CRT will yield no lag. That is my experience with NTSC stuff, I don't know about PAL; etc.

>>4352592

Bud, that's really weak trolling.

>>4352596
It is not trolling. I can pull of shit in Super Mario Bros. that is said to be impossible with either an emulator or other tools. I am fast. And I am telling you, I know when there's no lag and when there's actually lag happening. I've dealt with lag when connecting old hardware to new TVs and on and on.

The tests that supposedly are meant to be held up as proof that old hardware all has 3-4 frames of input lag is weak. If I find an old Ferrari that has an issue, they all must do it, right?

>>4352604

I'm not even going to finish that post.

This is what you do when you see a valid thread that you don't like? You throw a tantrum like a child?

Nobody thinks it's funny or entertaining and you're not going to derail the thread.

*without an emulator or other tools.
At any rate, guys, I realize lag is a problem, but it's simply untrue that every case yields input lag.

>>4352606
Are you feeling ok? This is a thread about input lag. The title mentions some going into a rage over it, is that you? The thread isn't derailed when it's exactly on topic, you autist.

>>4352595
>percieved experience vs actual research
this is how flatearthers are born, ladies and gents.

>>4352613

Don't reply to him, he's just mad that the topic exists in the first place.

>>4352613
I've done real research, guy. Just because you're unaware of a thing, doesn't mean that thing doesn't exist. Chill out. Man, you guys are awful. It's just video games, and now you're comparing me to a flat-earther? HA I've broken no rules and I've explained my position, but it looks like you guys can't handle a different opinion.

>>4352621
pics or didn't happen
post 'em

>>4352616
You're wrong! :) I'm glad it exists so people (normal ones anyway) can discuss and chat. You two are Internet AIDS.

>>4352624
How can I use a picture to prove no lag? Don't you mean video? Also, you guys can take me at my word or you can forget it. I'm telling the truth and everything I've said is valid within this thread's discussion topic.

>>4352629
>being this new

>>4352632
>being this naive

>>4352438

What you should be saying is no extra lag added to the base lag of whatever game you're playing. Keep in mind the base lag of any game can vary depending upon what frame you time it on, but in general it is usually 3-4 from what I've seen, sometimes lower on older games where you can get next frame inputs processed.

This is a misnomer but I get what you mean.

Input lag is essentially a newcomers problem in the video game world since it's been almost 10 years since new TVs first started butting heads with old consoles that were just getting out of storage across the land. And those complaining of PC lag usually have weak computers and are now mixing up their problems with retro consumer issues, i.e., hooking up an 8-bit Nintendo to a modern TV without a converter or otherwise finding a solution to lag introduced via upscaling.

>>4345340
>Horizontal scanlines
This is why we don't buy a CRT from a charity shop.

>>4352649
*Vertical scanlines

>>4352645
"Weak PCs" have nothing to do with it. The most powerful PC in the world will still have input lag simply due to the way graphics are handled in Windows.

>>4352639
I'll give way to that, sure. Thank you for getting me because for a second I was trying to explain how it is measurable ad nauseam. So yes, if any additional lag is introduced other than base lag, which I'm not even sure occurs all the time, then, it would be easy to see how nearly impossible certain maneuvers can be. If SMB has any lag, then wall jumps can happen, but it's a lot harder! When there's no lag, it's predictable.

>>4352656
I was merely bringing up the fact that modern PCs have entirely different reasons for having lag. You now have people claiming lag when it's their CPU and GPU or whatever else. You're right, but a lot of people are getting echos while emulating old PS1 games, now those people just have ancient computers. That's all I meant.

>>4352657

You didn't explain anything, you literally claimed you proved something simply by claiming it.

>>4352668
You know I explained, you just want to argue. Chillax. I prove what I say often enough out and about, I don't need to hurry up, make a video and upload it because you doubt me. Doubt me all you want, man. It's video games. Who cares I don't believe there's universal input lag with old electronics? Man, jumping down my throat over this, yeah, I sure wanna knock myself out and prove myself to you, oh Mr. Miagi.

>>4352681
>You know I explained, you just want to argue

Hmm, no, you claimed old systems have no lag, I pointed out they in fact have around 3-4 frames for the most part, and you tried to directly contradict that while claiming "I proved it!" as your evidence.

>>4352684
I'm curious what actual mechanism you propose that would cause old systems to have input lag. The SNES, for example, doesn't have enough VRAM to buffer multiple frames.

There is no discernible input lag with older video game systems working with CRT TVs. Beyond academic "base lag" -which hasn't been proven in all cases-, one cannot perceive input lag when purely using vintage or classic set ups. However, lag generally has become a problem when retro lovers try to play their hardware on new TVs.

>>4352697

The SNES doesn't even check each button's input more than once every ~16 ms (one frame in a 60 fps game). The controller port alone has a frame of input lag, and you actually think the rest of the system isn't going to.

Every video game system has lag. Unlike a retard flailing about with pseudo-guesses he "proved", some people actually measure these things. Capcom's CPS2 board (I think this might have been their most popular arcade machine) has about 3 and a half frames of lag depending on game, which rounds up to 4. This is on a CRT and everything.

People who play games that actually depend on reaction bother to check.

>>4352716
...That's not lag, that's polling frequency. The fact that I have to explain that means discussing this with you is a waste of time. Have fun with your emulators or whatever.

>>4352716
>people who play games that actually depend on reaction bother to check

Hilarious. Presumptuous. Who's trolling? And Capcom's arcade boards are the home console measuring stick? Hardy har har.

>>4352731
I knew it. The whole time I was arguing with someone who never even touched an old TV or real NES. Among other things.

>>4352731

Polling frequency is input lag. Input lag is any difference in time between when you push a button and something happens on screen PERIOD. In fact the SNES can produce a theoretical high of 28 ms of input lag if the input you're trying to do depends on multiple simultaneous inputs.

>bu bu but lag from input to output isn't input lag!

Ahaha faggot.

>>4352741
Polling frequency doesn't cause lag, it's a sample, a check, not lag.

>>4352749

Yes it does. When you press the A button on an SNES, it's up to 16 ms before the SNES is made aware of this. That is bonafide input lag.

>>4352760
No. Just no. That doesn't count because there is no discernible input lag; what you're describing are the inherent limitations in 1980's/90's technology. No one in their right mind complains of lag when playing Pilotwings on their SNES on a CRT, unless they suck and want an excuse for sucking.

>>4352716
>The controller port alone has a frame of input lag

>>4352767

Who said ANYTHING about complaining about input lag on the SNES? You are a fucking retard, trying to claim the SNES has no input lag when the god damn controller is clocked specifically to create exactly one frame of input lag.

ALL systems have input lag. It's important to keep it low in games that need fast reactions like racing, fighting, rhythm, shump, or really anything fast. Saying your SNES is some perfect princess with no input lag is naive and easily debunked, everybody who actually cares about input lag would disregard your "opinion" and stick to facts because they know they want to play games on systems with low lag.

>>4352772

>https://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12565
>https://www.gamefaqs.com/snes/916396-super-nintendo/faqs/5395

Basically the way it works is that the system checks each input one at a time over a 16.67 ms time period. The reason for this being that all clock speeds that the CPU runs at match up with this speed fine. The first button checked is the B button. This means that if you were to start a clock at the beginning of a polling cycle, wait until the B button had already been checked and registered as not pressed, then immediately press it, then the SNES would have to go through its cycle all over again before it got around to checking the B button again.

>>4352820
>exactly one frame of input lag
No. Even if you want to count that as "input lag", it will vary from 0ms to 16.67ms depending on when in the frame you press the button. In addition, not all games poll only once per frame. Some poll many times, but there's usually not much point because the game can only provide visual response in 1-frame increments.

Second, you still haven't accounted for the multiple other frames of lag that you claim exist. The SNES simply does not have buffers sufficient to make that happen unless a game goes out of its way to delay input processing for whatever reason. That still wouldn't be input lag though, since the game is responding to your input by deliberately ignoring it. Some games, notably Super Metroid, may seem like it's lagging when you press the jump/run buttons, but that's simply due to how the momentum calculations work.

In any case, if you're testing input lag in-game you're doing it wrong. Use a test ROM if you want useful information.

>>4352834
>No. Even if you want to count that as "input lag", it will vary from 0ms to 16.67ms depending on when in the frame you press the button

I misspoke, what I was trying to get at was that even if the entire rest of the SNES has no input lag (and it does), the polling rate alone would ensure 1 frame on input lag at all times because input lag is always rounded up.

>In addition, not all games poll only once per frame

Irrelevant, the hardware does not update more than once every frame.

>Second, you still haven't accounted for the multiple other frames of lag that you claim exist.

I don't have to, I'm debunking the stupid claim that the SNES has no input lag. I'm just poking the simplest, easiest to explain hole into such a stupid theory because that's usually best. I'm under no such burden to explain every single reason the SNES might cause input lag.

>In any case, if you're testing input lag in-game you're doing it wrong. Use a test ROM if you want useful information.

Wrong. When testing input lag on a setup you test that setup in its real world scenario.

>>4352820
You seem to be having a hard time understanding the material you included to back up your argument. Either that or you are deliberately lying by omission, as your sources clearly explain how much delay there is between the system and controller.

>>4352882

Then explain the input lag you would expect given what you're reading.

>>4352891
>Every 16.67ms (or about 60Hz), the SNES CPU sends out a 12us wide, positive
going data latch pulse on pin 3. This instructs the ICs in the controller
to latch the state of all buttons internally. SIX MICROSECONDS after the
fall of the data latch pulse, the CPU sends out 16 data clock pulses on
pin 2. These are 50% duty cycle with 12us per full cycle. The controllers
serially shift the latched button states out pin 4 on every rising edge
of the clock, and the CPU samples the data on every falling edge.

Polling rate is not lag. If you want to make a proper argument, you could compare the time between polling the controller and audio-visual feedback.

>>4352921

You didn't answer my question.

Explain exactly what lag you would expect between a button press and the CPU registering a button press. You can post this in a min and max value.

The 16 data clock pulses the bulk of your text is about is just about the 12 buttons on the SNES plus four blank inputs. Them each once every 16 ms and then:
>At the end of the 16 cycle sequence, the serial data line is driven low until the next data latch pulse.

>>4352940
>You can post this in a min and max value.
( 6um, 6um )

>>4352956

Wrong. Let's take, for example, the select button being pressed.

Data latch pulse happens (T+12um), B button is checked (T+24um), select button is checked (T+30-36um), rest of buttons are checked and then data line is driven low (does not register changes in button press) until the next data latch pulse, which is T+16.67ms. If, for example, you press select at the T+10ms mark, you will have to wait 6.667 ms until the SNES cpu registers the press.

>>4352237
Your ignorance of how gravity works is almost as funny as the joke you're replying to

>>4353020

It's safe to assume he means the in the context of a video game, anon. Not pure physical absolutes. Earth's gravity won't affect any of your controller cords enough to affect gameplay.

When /g/ tries to claim mirrors actually have response time because of the speed of c, it gets old.

>all this science being posted

>>4352978
What other systems have these polling rates and inherent lag like the SNES?

>>4346701
it's not a matter of "are you sensitive or not?". Even people that don't realize there's lag will still be having all their actions delayed. That can make a game feel worse even if you don't realize. It's like people that watch a movie on their phone - sure you can enjoy it and be happy, but don't pretend you just had the same experience as watching it at the cinema or on a nice home theater. David Lynch famously ranted about this. When you play a game with input lag, you're not just cheating yourself out of a good experience, you're also doing the creator's of the game disservice and belittling the experience of everyone who played the game properly.

I would be ok with people playing input lagged games if they tagged all their comments with "I played the laggy version" or some such, just so it's clear to everyone you're talking about a different game.

>>4353335
Holy shit kill yourself

>>4349793
Adapters have a delay. You must be an idiot to believe otherwise.

>>4353335
i suggest the loss revenue from flashcarts/emulators are more of a disservice to game creator; we as a forum need to move for nintendo to re-release the games so we can properly support the developers through financial means, as that was undoubtedly their primary motivation during development of the game.

>>4354364
>for nintendo to re-release the games so we can properly support the developers through financial means, a

All devs in nippon are just salarymen except the minor doujin-soft guys and indie devs. The CEOs and shareholders of ninskydoge get most of the money after advertising cost and misc overheads. You're not supporting the original devs at all. You retarded shills. Or you m8, aussie.

>>4353335
>Muh golden ears. Muh special madskills.
Spoken almost like an placebo loving audiophile.

OP was right. You mad.

>>4354186
>dumb kid doubles down on stupid
Those of us who know how things work don't have to "believe" anything dingus

the main cause of the input lag is your age desu

>>4345324
>why do people get so enraged
because video games promote simple thinking and confrontation

>>4345324
Because people think they have to deny that it's an issue or else they'll look like an autist.

For a game you've never played on real hardware, it's most definitely something you won't notice and the impact on you being good/shit at the game is negligible. Honestly, the only game that I've noticed it in was Space Channel 5 and that's because I played the original on original hardware. I imagine it only really matters for fighters and rhythm games, not fucking Zelda and Final Fantasy.

>>4354469
>adapters don't have a delay
>yet USB mice must switch to PS/2 mode to avoid delay
>not even all mice do this
You're drunk

>>4355669

You're proving him right by trying to take an argument about adapters and segue into some bullshit argument where you're arguing about some post somebody made where he pointed out mice have a special chip for PS/2 mode.

You've even ended a bullshit appeal to majority fallacy to top it off.

Next time you're going to make a /v/ post, make sure to include a reaction image with your greentext.

>>4346746

>I beat Punch Out on the Snes emulator for the Supercard DSTwo for the Nintendo DS.
I beat the last headbutting in Demon's Crest using that emulator. That's true Rock.

>>4345324
It enrages those who simply fail to git gud, as it is a way, way overblown issue

>>4355669
>You're drunk
Are you projecting or retarded on top of the age issue? A USB to PS/2 adapter is literally just something with a USB connector on one and and PS/2 on the other and wires in between. Just fucking google it and stop making a fool of yourself.

>>4345324
>casually bring up
I don't think screaming like an autist about it in every emulation discussion is considered "casually bringing up".

>>4356228
This is the true answer.

>>4345338
can't beat Mario because the experience is compromised due to... INPUT LAG

Does Mother 3 fal under /vr/? I had to play that on a GBPlayer hooked up to a television because running it in an emulator on my pc, and even running it in virtual console on a softmodded wii (which I thought would mitigate the issue) made it much harder than it needed to be to hit 16 beat combos in later fights.

>Flings shit about input lag online.
>Spends a lot of money and time trying to reduce input lag.
>Makes thread about how he never plays games anymore.