/vr/ - Retro Games

Not one ma/vr/ick has beaten it, but there are harder games.

What's the best way to play Rogue in the modern day? The link is dead in the Roguelike /vg/.

>>4332397
Depends on what you mean by best. You can just play original Rogue through Dosbox I'm sure there's an all-in-one download to be found somewhere. The Roguelike with the most development and largest community is Nethack.

>>4332407
I've ascended in Nethack before, but, I realize I've never actually played Rogue.

>>4332206
After about 6 years I finally got the Orb in Dungeon Crawl. It's not that it's super hard it's just there is very little room for error. 1 fuck up and you're done.

>>4332436
Looks like myabandonware has it set up to play right in a browser window

https://www.myabandonware.com/game/rogue-4n/play-4n

>>4332443
That's classic insidious gameplay. Long periods of mostly boring nothing and then suddenly dead fucking serious situations that can easily sneak up on you before you even realize it. Can you imagine if games today were like that?

>>4332446
Thanks Gramp, you're a saint.

>>4332397
sudo apt-get install bsdgames-nonfree

>>4332206
Moraff's Dungeon of the Unforgiven. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gou42MyAvuE

>>4332206
Probably but I never did. We were still on PDPs when it was made and by the time anyone had ported it to a home platform people were doing much more sophisticated stuff, game play wise and visually.

:(

>>4332443
>tfw my first ascension was a mountain dwarf hunter who used divinations to kill all the bosses from offscreen with a crossbow
my memories are desecrated by the devil's team every day

>>4332206
you never found the amulet?

>>4332449
>Can you imagine if games today were like that?
DCSS is a "game today" so yes, also NOT RETRO >>>/v/

Browser rogue in js: http://donnierussellii.github.io/JSRogue.html

>>4332206
Nethack is a LOT harder than Rogue.

Games that totally random are trash. Might as well play slots or roulette.

>>4332206
I have, but only twice and neither was when I played it a lot when I was younger, which was a hell of a lot. Rogue is suprisingly hard because you don't have a lot of the options later rougelikes do.

>>4332497
Honestly, this. The version of Rogue that most people have played (the freeware DOS version) was already an historical curiosity when it was released. The reason no one on /vr/ has beaten it is because everyone on /vr/ was too busy playing Hack, Nethack, ADOM, Dungeon Crawl, etc.

>>4332975
I'm a huge roguelikefag, and I agree that Rogue is pretty trash.

It's an enormous landmark in game design and had lots of incredible ideas that led to all the good shit in the 90s, but the game itself is nightmarish without being fun. The only guaranteed way to win is to chance upon a ring of slow digestion. Otherwise, it's like dragging your balls through broken glass.

>>4333071
When I was playing Rogue a lot it was in the 80's and though Nethack would come out during the time I was into it, I didn't learn about it or other roguelikes until many years later. Even after we got internet I never thought of looking it up ir anything. It was my favorite of them, but just another of the million DoS games that was on a floppy.

>>4333085
>The only guaranteed way to win is to chance upon a ring of slow digestion
This, plus some good wands. A wand of cancellation is a must for dealing with late-game monsters (medusas and dragons especially)

>>4332932
yes my friend, HOWEVER thanks to the shitty rules of this board DCSS IS considered retro so it's perfectly fine to talk about it

>>4333565
>DCSS

Linley's Dungeon Crawl is retro.

Stone Soup is not.

>>4333618
Stone Soup is a direct continuation of Linley's source code though.

Saying DCSS is not retro would be like saying ZDoom or Zandronum is not retro.

>>4332967
that's just not true. Nethack is very easy once you've learned its weird rules and interactions. Experienced Nethack players have very close to a 100% win rate, whereas Rogue has a lot more situations that can actually screw you over.

for those interested in the genre, you should know there's a roguelike general /rlg/ on /vg/

>>4333826
Fuck /vg/ they are aboard of cancerous redditors.

>>4333832
there are about three good commentors for every fifteen trolls there, but rlg does have a lot of communal game knowledge for advices at need

>>4333825
This.

>>4333085
It didn't have a single new idea other than using curses for it's ascii art graphics.

>>4333832
>>4333839
The roguelike subreddit is better and less cancerous

>>4332517
What is a "xeroc"?

>>4334323
A mimic.

>>4334238
>say something bad about a roguelike
>get downvoted into oblivion
>say it again
>get shadowbanned
Pass.

>>4334323
You can't call it a Xerox because that's trademarked.

>>4334389
I haven't been to reddit, but agree that the few times I went to the general on /vg/ it was pretty terrible and they only seemed to play DCSS and Dredmor. There's the forums at Temple of the Roguelike but you might have a similar problem getting banned.

>>4333742
Many say that too

>>4332206
Most people think roguelikes are all about getting lucky even though they're not, but with Rogue that really is the case.

>>4335361
Has anyone ever tried editing Rogue's source code and making it more balanced and fair?

>>4334338
It's an endgame monster that disguises itself as an item, and will totally rip your face off if it catches you by surprise. If you want to survive Rogue's endgame, you'll get into the habit of shooting every item with your crossbow before trying to pick it up. I'm not sure if they can disguise themselves as the Amulet of Yendor.

It's based on a mimic from D&D, but they changed the name to avoid copyright troubles. See also: aquator, ice monster.

>>4335365
Yes, it's called "the entire roguelike genre."

>>4335384
>Yes, it's called "the entire roguelike genre."

This exactly. Rogue is awesome in concept, but in it's original form kind of sucks. But the core ideas gave so much merit that they've been iterating on that basic formula fir decades now.

>>4335365
Sarcasm aside, out of all modern roguelikes, Nethack is probably the closest to the original Rogue in terms of gameplay.

>>4335426
I would hardly call Nethack modern, but you are right that it's one of the more direct games that's pretty much Rogue+otherstuff.

>>4335438
>I would hardly call Nethack modern
I mean "modern" in the sense that it's still being actively developed.

>>4335447
Okay in that sense I'd agree.

>>4335365
It's not *that* luck based.
Throw everything forever, don't waste moves picking things up when you don't need to, and go to obvious hidden rooms.

>>4335490
>don't waste moves picking things up when you don't need to
Why? The game gives you plenty of food, centaurs often drop food. If you're playing the game properly, you should never be at the risk of running out.

>>4332206
>Is this the hardest retro game ever made?
It's not even the hardest retro RPG, try Wizardry 4.

>>4335490
don't forget removing armor when you find an aquator and also waiting until after the level when ants/rattlesnakes stop spawning to use your strength pots and also exploring the correct/efficient way and also using hallway corners to get the jump on enemies

rogue is a lot more fair than people think since they dont know how to play it. granted, it is a game where playing well doesnt net you as good of a winrate as in other games but its presumptuous to assume that every game is designed for good players to win 100% of the time

>>4335809
And, the number one protip that every roguelike player should know:

If you see a monster you don't think you can beat, run. Don't be one of those players who thinks they HAVE to fight every enemy they see.

>>4335765
If you don't get a slow digestion ring early enough, you risk starving on the way back up.

>>4335793
It's not an rpg you dim little troll.

>>4335831
That's like rule #1 for them. Overconfidence is the death note of the newbie roguelike player. My favorite important rule is knowing when to stop and walk away from a sitation for a while. Making a cup of tea has saved me many times.

>>4335968
Yes it is, it has stat growth and the ability to customize your character and his abilities. What, are you one of those people who thinks "RPG" means faggot dress-up games like Daggerfall?

>>4335968
From Wikipedia
>Roguelike is a term used to describe a subgenre of role-playing video games....

>>4335984
And rule #2 is "Walk, don't run."

>>4332206
I beat Rogue like 10 years ago but the details are pretty blurry. All I remember is that I binged the game hard.

I probably couldn't do it again.

>>4336178
>Wikipedia
You need to work on your fishing

>>4335173
Yeah, but ZDoom is allowed on /vr, so suck on it.

>>4335968
How the fuck is it not an rpg? It has various stats, equipment system, system of wands, potions and scrolls, and experience points and levels that allow you to customize your character. How is this NOT an rpg?

>>4337443
The fun thing about /vr/ at this point is I legitimately can't tell if you're still trolling or if you really are just a dumb little kid. Either way, thanks for the good times. Enjoy your Wizardry.

>>4337443
Lol dude don't bother with that faggot, there's no way he isn't just messing with you.

>>4337580
Because understanding genres is soooo hard right?

>>4333618
And everyone disagrees with you. As well all talk about Stone Soup.

>>4337443
I myself agree with you that it's a rpg but at the same time I agree with him not agreeing so. If you get someone who loves RPGs and make him write a review for a roguelike probably all the cons he'd list would be the features people who enjoy roguelikes would be mostly interested into.

The point being is like comparing which one is the best racing game: mario kart or gran turismo?

>>4337656
It's not as issue if agreeing or disagreeing. They're completely different genres with simiar roots, calling them the same thing is as stupid as mixing up a brawler with a fighter. He might just be stupid but considering the post it all originated from it's more likely a ewak troll he's now doubling down on.

>>4337443
rogue has no character customization though, you're a rogue and that's it

>>4337741
He also thinks that "rpg" means a game with wands and scrolls lol.

inb4 Wizardry isn't an rpg either because it doesn't have C&C

>>4337656
>The point being is like comparing which one is the best racing game: mario kart or gran turismo?
Mario Kart and Gran Turismo appeal to different niches of racing fan, but nobody would deny that both are racing games.

It's silly to claim that roguelikes aren't RPG's just because they're dissimilar to (Final Fantasy / Elder Snores / insert other RPG series here)

>>4337929
lol

>>4337748
Define RPG, then?

You don't get to leave it undefined. If you aren't willing to define your own position, you leave others to define it for you.

>>4337932
Giggle all you want, but Elder Snores is fucking boring. No apologies here.

>>4337935
You present an interesting ethical dilemma actually. If a simpleton insists to you that an apple and an orange are the same thing because they're both fruit from trees with juicy flesh and seeds which people like to eat, is it your ethical responsibility to explain it to them? Does that change if you suspect they're pretending to be a simpleton because what they really want is an argument?

Personally? I don't really care if you genuinely can't tell the difference or don't understand why there's a difference versus whether you're just still pulling the same bait line. I like to think you're being serious though, because that makes it funny.

>>4337937
I couldn't agree more. Elder Scrolls is an RPG and boring as all fuck. I would unironically rather go to the dentist than have to play any of those things again.

>>4337952
>You present an interesting ethical dilemma actually. If a simpleton insists to you that an apple and an orange are the same thing because they're both fruit from trees with juicy flesh and seeds which people like to eat, is it your ethical responsibility to explain it to them?
Actually, yes. Language is socially constructed; if nobody cares enough to enforce the rules of language, they cease to exist. If your definition of RPG can't be explained, then it doesn't exist. If you have a communication disorder then you shouldn't be arguing over definitions of words to begin with.

Rogue is an RPG.

Prove me wrong.

>>4337952
This assburger probably thinks a game is only an RPG if it has some gay anime storyline, lol

>>4337974
lol

>>4337984
You know this whole argument probably could have been avoided if you'd just said "dungeon crawler" instead of "RPG."

>>4338180
Sorry, I didn't realize it was my job to avoid offending people with asperger's.

>>4338180
Naw, a dungeon crawler actually is a subgenre of rpg. Roguelikes are just a different kind of game that evolved from tabletop wargames.

>>4338216
If you were genuinely interested why the two are different there are any number of more productive ways you could use to overcome your dunning-kruger effect over this.

>>4338302
>Naw, a dungeon crawler actually is a subgenre of rpg. Roguelikes are just a different kind of game that evolved from tabletop wargames.
You've got that the wrong way around. RPGs in the form you're familiar with grew out of dungeon crawlers, which grew out of wargames.

Braunstein preceded and inspired the Blackmoor campaign, but was distinctly a wargame not an RPG.
OD&D was purely a dungeon (and hex) crawler and AD&D was predominantly dungeon crawling until a bit before 2e came out.

>>4338638
Lol

>>4332206
>Has anyone on /vr/ ever beaten Rogue?
I have.

>>4332206
>Is this the hardest retro game ever made?
Nope. It's tough though, and it fights dirty.

>>4332206
nobody on vr plays games

>>4332397
Buy an XT with a 5151 monitor and Model F.
Thank me latter.

>>4338302
>>4338638
What are you guys doing, what are you doing, stop pls.

If we are talking about games, RPG was coined by DnD, dungeon crawlers are based on DnD.
Nowadays you would classify things like this, RPB is the genre, dungeon crawler is a subgenre, DnD is a dungeon crawler and RPG game. Like a Mercedes is a car and a vehicle.

>>4339087
To add to that, Rouge is a RPG, you are roleplaying.
It's also a Dungeon Crawler.

>>4339097
Rogue and roguelikes are not rpgs. The only way to confuse them is to not understand why genre distinctions exist.

>>4339174
>The only way to confuse them is to be an underage retard like me
FTFYUR

>>4339187
It's true though. No one familiar with both genres would mistake them or need to have it explained. Even knowing the basics of what the two are about would let a normal person figure it out.

>>4339174
lol, this faggot probably plays gay anime games

>>4339208
Opposite. I play many roguelikes (and loads of rogue back then) and almost entirely dislike rpgs. Other than that mostly fighters, puzzlers and strategy.

If you define an RPG as a game where you make your numbers go up by killing monsters and/or finding treasure then Rogue is an RPG. If you define an RPG as a game where you select a bunch of dialogue options then Rogue is not an RPG. Either definition is an acceptable use of the term. Now stop being faggots.

genre arguing is a blight upon all which it falls. movies, music, gaming, books, etc.. it's always the same bullshit with neither side conceding cause it's never about trying to find worthwhile labels it's about being the right person in the argument. grow the fuck up and stop arguing over whether or not this old as fuck game is an rpg, which it is, and talk about the fucking game instead.

>>4339291
Both those definitions are abysmal. Holy shit this place.

>>4339403
It's a simple way of putting things in broad similar categories, there's nothing wrong with them and they're not confusing to most people.

>>4339621
There's nothing confusing about the fact that roguelikes are rpgs

>>4339635
Except they're not at all but you refuse to drop it all because of your shityy little troll comment about Wizardry. It's not even a kind of game you like, why are you so insistent on shitting up the thread about them?

I think my personal best is floor 16? Somewhere in the teens. I always end up getting my armor shredded by aquifors, I HATE those fuckers. Forgetting to take it off for leather armor or wandering around in the dark and bumping into one. I generally don't go past like floor 10 or something iirc unless I have plate armor and a two-handed sword with some enchants on it, otherwise you get wrecked.

Don't think I'm ever going to beat Rogue it's too much of a roulette and that's alright, still fun but my go to is uMoria.

>>4339291

>>4339809
I usually just completely avoidthem unless I have no other options, but that's how the game goes. I've had runs where I made it to the amulet but never found a digestion ring and tried to get out anyways but no dice. It can just plain fuck you sometimes.

>>4339918
0/10

>>4339956
>digestion ring
Never once found it, food is an issue but I've only had a handful of runs where it was gamebreaking, guess I was lucky. My issue is always getting straight up trash gear all the time. Wands of haste monster, daggers and cursed armor for days.

Video game genres have always been murky distinctions at best and these days every game is everything. Have you browsed Steam by genres? It's ridiculous and I'm sure that any attempts to technically classify game genres would only lead to new games being that much more samey in attempts to appeal to the largest audiences.

For anyone interested in the genre, Roguelike Radio (a very good show in general) did an episode a while back on introducing people to roguelikes which has a lot of handy beginner information.

http://www.roguelikeradio.com/2013/04/episode-70-introducing-people-to.html

Also their interview with David Craddock
http://www.roguelikeradio.com/2015/08/episode-105-dungeon-hacks-book-about.html

And their episode on strategy games where they talk a lot about roguelikes in relation to other genres.
http://www.roguelikeradio.com/2012/12/episode-55-strategy-games.html

Loads of great stuff in their archives as well, highly recommended for anyone who is already into them or even curious.

>>4340041
They're not super important on your way down, but unless you're lucky it can be a death sentence on your way back up.

this is probably a stupid question, do you need to know how to play ad&d for these games or does the game handle all the numbers?

Anyone know a solid roguelike (not rogue LITE) that can be played with a controller?

>>4340520
game handles dicerolls etc
some absolute basics can be nice, like usually there's a number added to a die roll for trying to hit the target and then if you hit there's a number added to a die roll for damage.

>>4341047
yeah I figured the game took care of that. guess I mean would being familiar with the rules of ad&d help navigate what stats do what and how weapon damage is calculated etc. I only know jrpgs and I want to try out some crpgs, while we're on the subject is their an online resource for d&d in terms of this games? is it first edition or the second?

>>4341119
As long as you understand some foundational stuff like Armor Class and can understand things when you should risk equipping a new item and when you should leave it the fuck alone for fear of it being cursed you should be fine. I know how to play later d20 games and I haven't found that specific knowledge of those rules has ever helped me play roguelikes. I've only gotten to like level 14 though

>>4340641
that would require a fairly serious interface of dropdown menus or significant change to how you control the character

>>4340641
I've played a bit of Fatal Labyrinth (a roguelike for Genesis) and I thought it was pretty okay. Shiren the Wanderer (SNES) is also supposed to be really good.

Not retro, but there's a homebrew roguelike for the GBA called Powder. And there's also a GBA port of Rogue.

>>4341148
ok thanks

>>4340641
Closest thing is probably Shiren the Wanderer while eschewing the stupid item warehouse.

Powder might be good, I haven't played it.

>>4341119
All you need to know is that when the game says XdY, it will pick X numbers between 1 and Y and add them together. So 3d6 will roll 1-6 three times with a minimum final value of 3, a maximum of 18, and that values around the middle will happen more often than values at the extremes.

>>4341349
ah right figured it was basic dice rolling like that. what about things like (excuse me but I don't play dnd so I might be wrong here) save roll, to hit etc. any stats that are generally good for crpg classes like wizards should have int or warriors with str?

>>4341363
depends quite a bit on the specific game
for example in Angband different races, classes, and variations in the wisdom stat all affect saving throw roll, which is used primarily to determine if you avoid the debuff aspects of certain monster spells

in something like poschengband, wizards are a lot better at using high-end magical devices than warriors, but in something like Nethack device activations do not have a failrate.

as a rule of thumb, usually both dexterity and strength are important for melee, and eventually you'll want a lot of each as a hittudes class. Generally wizard types cast with intelligence, cleric types (including paladins) cast with wisdom.

>>4341363
Most of that stuff is going to be the same as any other RPG, so generally STR will give you attack power and carrying capacity, DEX/AGI will give you accuracy and evasion, CON will give you HP, INT will make you better at magic, WIS will protect you against magic, and CHA probably doesn't matter. If you can increase your speed that's almost always the overpowered stat.

Saving throws are your level of resistance against status ailments and generally only Angband derivatives use that term (and their implementation isn't particularly D&D-like anyway). To hit is just another way to say accuracy. It's seldom calculated the same way as in D&D, and in most RLs it's not important to know the equations.

Two things that are almost universally very important in roguelikes are HP and resistances. Most RLs have some high damage armor-ignoring attacks, and it's not uncommon for physical defense from armor to be relatively unreliable, so HP is the most important stat for survivability. That means max CON even if you're a wizard. Also conditions in roguelikes tend to be very serious, some are outright death sentences, so learn which ones you need to 100% avoid, learn where monsters that inflict those conditions live, and don't go there until you're immune.

Generally the best way to learn is just to pick a game and play. When things go wrong, figure out why so you can do better next time. Reading spoilers will help you advance much faster and I recommend it, but some people think that takes away too much of the fun. Don't start with Nethack if that sounds like you.

I think the #1 most basic rule to keep in mind is to never make a move where on your next turn you have a real chance to die. Even if that means burning a valuable item, even if it means cowardly tactics. A relatively low chance of death like 1 in 10 is still too high, those risks will catch up to you over the course of a full game. Always plan for the worst case scenario, always have an escape route.

>>4341556
>>4341681
thanks a lot for all these tips, really! I'm giving Angband a shot right now

>>4341363
I'm not an expert in Roguelikes or DnD but here's some more pointers for you anon: armor class or ac can work on of two ways in games, negative or positive armor class. meaning depending on the game, to have more armor, so to speak, you want armor that either has a - or a + next to it. so if a game uses negative ac, you'll want your armor class to go as negative as possible with -10 ac being fully armored, 0 being naked and +10 being cursed or some negative enchant armor. the opposite, if a game was using a positive ac system would be: +10 is full armor, 0 naked and -10 being cursed or debuffed.

generally weapons are always positive, I think. so the first + or - next to a weapon means first to hit then to damage. so for example a dagger +2 +2 would mean dagger with plus 2 to accuracy on the weapon and plus 2 to the weapons base damage.

hope this helps and have fun

>>4342027
if you play on angband.live you may be able to get advices from other players, plus have easy access to a range of variants too

>>4334692
>the few times I went to the general on /vg/ it was pretty terrible and they only seemed to play DCSS and Dredmor
That's just a lie. Dredmor has never not been a joke.

>>4339174
>Rogue and roguelikes are not rpgs.
Yes they are. This is not a matter of opinion son, it's a fact.

>>4342735
They are RPGs the way monotreme are mammals. They represent a very basal line that all other RPGs originally descended of but developed into a different direction than the rest.

>>4342735
They're much closer to strategy games than they are RPGs. When you don't know anything about a genre of games you really shouldn't spout your mouth off so much.

>>4342741
This is a bad analogy because they're not the baseline for rpgs.

>>4332206
The CRPGaddit blog has a pretty good indepth description of it. Basically there is a certain item that makes your character get hungry slower, if you get it early it breaks the game because you can spend so much time resting without having to worry about dying of starvation. According to him if you get that and know the basic tactics to each enemy the game is very easy.

Arguments about genre definitions are for fucking aspies.

>>4343035
Every RPG in the 70s was a roguelike, even before Rogue itself had come out. It was all about bringing DnD to the screen and it was the only way to do it given various limitations.
It wasn't until Ultima and Wizardry that it changed and even those were transitional.

>>4343059
>games before Rogue were rougelikes

Fuck this place depresses me with it's idiocy.

>>4343043
Yup, and this is what happens on a sliw board when one troll wants to derail a thread. Saying two different genres are the same over and over purely because he hates people talking about them.

>>4343129
It's established nomenclature. You can't really call them dnd-likes even when they did it first.

>>4343059
>>4342741
>>4342735
For anyone genuinely interested in the history of Rogue and roguelikes, what kinds of games they were inspired by and what they inspired I again recommend the excellent episode on Roguelike Radio which is hosted by some of the most knowledgeable people anywhere on this amazing genre.

http://www.roguelikeradio.com/2011/12/episode-16-history-and-future-of.html#more

>>4340641
>>4341167
>>4341342
I can vouch for Powder being pretty great. It's among my favorite roguelikes because it's fairly short like Rogue. Just get to the 25th floor, gank Beealzebub and get out again. A full game is 5-10 hours, so even when you die late game it's not a huge loss. It's complex enough to be very interesting with a lot going on, but doesn't feel bloated. It was originally made for GBA but has been ported a few places, I play it on PSP and my phone mostly.

>>4343160
>>4343160
They're not DnDlikes. Rougelikes and RPGs have similar roots, in D&D and tabletop games, but approach it in very different ways. Afterburner and Microsoft Flight Simulator are both games rooted in flying planes but are in very different genres. This isn't complex and shouldn't be confusing to anyone.

Listen to the link here if you are actually interested in their history and not just trolling over nonsense. >>4343172

>>4343175
Ultima 1 has very clear roots in Roguelikes, namely in the form of its spiritual predecessor Akalabeth.
As the Ultima series went on and shaped the RPG genre as we know it it it detached more and more from the Roguelike tradition.

>>4343196
Akalabeth predates Rogue and is not considered a rougelike, nor was it much of an inspiration. Again, listen to the link I posted if you actually are interested in learning something.

>>4343214
>nor was it much of an inspiration
Ultima 1 is Akalabeth with a fixed overland and space travel.
Are you pretending to be retarded just to push your ads?

>>4343218
I meant to roguelikes. It was obviously the precursor to Ultima and RPGs which are a different ( though sharing similar roots) genre from roguelikes.

>>4343229
Nobody said it was an inspiration for other Roguelikes. It only achieved minor sales on the Apple ][ and most of the Roguelike development happened on university computers.
It wasn't even an inspiration for Wizardry which defined yet another strain of RPGs.

>>4343236
Why bring it up then? The point of this is to get over the rogue/roguelikes are RPGs trolling so we can get back to the game itself.

Elona is a pretty difficult roguelike if you jump in with no knowledge

>>4343267
>rogue/roguelikes are RPGs
That's obvious. What's there to troll?
Just ignore people who where born in '98 and don't know shit, then we wouldn't have to post posts about "ignoring" them in the first place.

>>4343814
You're a fucking moron.

Should I always search just to avoid traps and detect potential secret doors or only when I can't make progress?

>>4344173
Yes and no. You need to search, but too much searching will waste turns and you'll end up starving. Early on it's less important, but traps will still fuck you hard. You have to develop a bit of an intuitive sense.

>>4343783
That's every roguelike. Most still are even when you do.

>>4337741
You're not even that, the manual says you just got done training at a warrior academy or something. It's fucking bullshit.

>>4345953
What's bullshit about it?

>>4343196
>Ultima 1 has very clear roots in Roguelikes, namely in the form of its spiritual predecessor Akalabeth.

Did he just call Akalabeth a fucking roguelike?

There's just so many versions of Rogue. I tried playing the most recent version, 5.4 I think. It adds way too many identify scrolls. Rather than "Identify" you have separate scrolls for identifying other scrolls, potions, weapons, etc. It's stupid. And I've never once found a ring of slow digestion. What is the BEST version, that's not bullshit?

I've been playing it on and off for over a decade, have never won. I considered the idea of recording my attempts, calling it "the daily rogue attempt" or something, and one day, maybe I'd win. But I doubt anyone would want to watch dozens (perhaps hundreds!) of Rogue videos. It's just a bunch of colorful text after all.

>>4346145
Honestly, the best version is whatever you end up liking best. Someone out there thought a billion identify scrolls was a good idea, even if he's one of the only ones. Why not just try a new version every few attempts or so? See what fits. That's likely what you're doing though. I haven't played it seriously in ages and couldn't even tell you what version it was.

Any reason you stuck with Rogue itself this long?

>>4346132
Sad isn't it?

>>4346175
>Any reason you stuck with Rogue itself this long?
I only play it on and off, so it's not as if I invest a lot of time into it. Once every few months I go at it for around a week. Its simplicity charms me. I don't enjoy a lot of roguelikes because they just have too much for me to care about any of it. Dozens of races and classes and religions is cool, until my character dies. Just don't have the willingness to master all that.

>>4346190
I get all that. My favorite is fairly close to Rogue that way too for similar reasons. Good luck with it!

>>4343783
Elona isn't difficult or retro or a roguelike

>>4346190
Try some of the simpler ones like Shiren the Wanderer (don't use the item warehouse!) or Brogue.

>>4346602
It was made to be a blend of a rougelike and a jrpg.

>>4346613
The trouble with Shiren is the limited options you have going in without anything in the warehouse. You can't make a strong enough sword in one run to melee late game enemies, and you'll also have a very limited supply of blast and destruction scrolls etc. So it turns most of the end game into running away all the time and hoping you get lucky.

It's probably the best of the chunsoft mystery dungeon games but still leaves a lot to be desired.

>>4346132
Where's the problem? It has random generation and permadeath.
Tile based movement, turn based, non-discrete combat etc are also a given. The main thing it doesn't have is ASCII in place of graphics.

>>4347718
I more or less agree. Just beat the main game however and then focus on the bonus dungeons, they're more fun anyways.

>>4347741
It's a Beneath Apple Manor scenario.

>>4347718
It's possible to melee late game enemies, it's just not reliable or ideal, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with running away. There are also a lot of things you can do to power up Shiren so that you don't need as good of a sword, like killing great hens in their strong form or feeding all your allies to one monster so it's super high level and you can kill it for tons of EXP.

Anyway the key to the endgame is to preserve as many high-value items as possible and then make a mad dash for the finish line. It might be a bit more luck-based than most roguelikes, but its not too extreme about it. It more than makes up for its flaws with its excellent pacing and enemy design.

>>4347229
Yeah but it plays like a combination of an interesting sandbox and a dreadful single player MMO.

>>4348857
That sounds kind of cool actually.

I would feel more challenged by the task of maxing out waves on Joust or something similar to that than beating Rogue.

>>4350051
It's the difference between reflex gaming and strategic gaming. Totally fair choice.

>>4332206
>Is this the hardest retro game ever made?
Watch this

>>4332206
>mfw this game

>>4350051
I never played a ton of Joust, but I played gameboy Tetris every night before sleep for years and was wicked good. Could get the biggest space shuttle in Type A frequently. My typical nightly ritual wad to beat Type B on level 9 with 5 high which gets you the biggest ship and probably the hardest thing in the game ( go try it!)

By contrast, I found Rogue when I was 12 (random dos game in a box of them from a family friend) and played it a lot for years. Sometimes casually, sometimes daily. I was like 28 when I finally had a successful run. And that was AFTER ascending in Nethack twice.

I tried a few years back and barely got half way down on my best run. As far as you can say, I 'beat' Tetris literally thousands if times in the time it took me to beat Rogue. I'm still considered "no fun" to play vs Tetris (or T vs Puyo) with anyone I know.

You might think you'd find Joust more of a challenge, but go ahead and try actually beating Rogue and see how hard it is.

>>4332206
You can play rogue in the text adventure section on freearcade dot com

>>4350108
Not retro (first release was 2005 I think?), but Dorf Fort is a good candidate for hardest game ever.

http://angband.live
it's good

>>4334238
the roguelike subreddit is garbage at actual *bands and *hacks in my experience. They prefer their cuckmind and the like.

>>4350530
Cuckmind?

>>4350230
"Beating" Joust > beating Rogue >>> "beating" Tetris, imo, as far as difficulty goes. Kind of a strange example to pick. I've never maxed waves in the NES version of Joust or beaten Rogue, but I know what's involved in both and I'd put my money on beating Rogue any day if I had to do one or the other, whereas even my ex girlfriend can get the best end-screens on high-level Tetris. I admit it's a little arbitrary, though, since they are completely different kinds of games.

>>4350108
Pretending it was retro, and pretending it has a win condition, anything you could realistically consider a "win condition" in the game is fairly easy to reach with a little knowledge. For example, cleaning the circus in fort mode could be tediously done by a beginner with micro-managed walled mining followed by an obsidian casting trap. Surviving on a terrifying biome can be as simple as sealing the entrance, and properly pitting waste materials if it's a reanimating biome. Adventurer mode megabeast slaying could be done by a beginner with a build guide. As opposed to Rogue where a guide doesn't necessarily lead to success at all.

It's kind of in it's own category of "challenging", though. For example, I've played it since '10 or so and I still haven't learned how to use minecarts.

>>4350613
Probably referring to Cogmind, which is actually a great game.

>>4350748
Like I say, I've not really played Joust beyond a handful of times over the years and not for long. What makes it so challenging? Now I'm intrigued?

>>4350748
Also let me just say that it's one thing to read a guide for Rogue and think you have a good handle on how to clear it. It's a whole different thing to run a successful game. But that's not to discount Joust at all.

>>4350773
It's just a specifically challenging reflex-oriented game from an era where obscenely challenging reflex-oriented games were already very common. I presume there are even more difficult ones, this is just one I'm very familiar with that I could never imagine being sweaty enough to max the waves out on.

There's no simple way to farm points(lives) in the NES version so you have a very limited amount of lives in a hellscape of enemies that move faster than you and fucking pt*rodactyls that you can literally only kill by lining up your pixel-wide jousting lance with their pixel-wide mouth while trying to control a character that handles like being on an ice skating rink without ice skates. Not to mention reasonable farming of points is often riskier than the extra lives are worth, due to pt*rodactyls. There are versions of the game where they aren't so difficult or are even exploitable, but not the NES version, it's literally this fucked up lining-up-pixels to kill them and I can't imagine how much work it would take to get good at that if it's even possible. I grew up with the game and I didn't even know they could be killed until I was an adult, which from what I've read is a common experience. I think you'd have to memorize AI patterns on all map forms to beat the game.

>>4350793
Interesting, that does sound intense! The running around popping things with slippery controls is about all I remember.

>>4350073
It's more like reflex vs luck. Tactics are important in Rogue (and Joust), but no amount of skill will save you from bad RNG.

>>4350108
Dwarf Fortress is probably the only game with more overrated difficulty than Contra.

>>4350812
Arcade games are consistently the most challenging single player games. Roguelikes are a distant second.

>>4350793
I've never played the NES version. Have you played the arcade version? This would establish whether the problem is the port or the player.

>>4350874
Yeah, the arcade version has some point-farming exploits, as well as the 2600 version.

>>4350818
>Dwarf Fortress is probably the only game with more overrated difficulty than Contra.
I'm >>4350748 and agree DF has obscenely overrated difficulty, but you can create extremely difficult scenarios.

I've tried and failed many times to establish an above-ground fortress(where only storage-cellars and mines are allowed beneath the ground) in a terrifying biome.

>>4350760
Nah, its a gay version of hivemind

>>4350890
I tried to get into DF but it just had too much going on at once.

>>4350919
Just because I'm bored I'll post a barebones simple guide for getting your BASIC, basic bearings in fort mode in case anyone wants to try.

>generate world with high minerals
>find a place on the map that has dwarf, human, and elf neighbors, with metals, trees, and a river and NO aquifer
>prepare for journey carefully
Dwarf 1: Mining
Dwarf 2: Mining/appraisal/judge of intent
Dwarf 3: Masonry/building designer(architecture)
Dwarf 4: Carpentry
Dwarf 5: Woodcutting/plant gathering(herbalism)
Dwarf 6: Stonecrafting
Dwarf 7: Mechanic
>Items
2 copper picks
1 copper battle axe
7 cups
100 or so food items
3-400 or so drink items
some cats and maybe dogs
>Embark
>Cut down trees
>Mine down into stone(1-5 levels from the surface), start mining rooms of stone
>Get your stonecrafter making stone crafts ASAP
>Build a Trading Depot near your entrance ASAP, make sure there is a 3-tile-wide path from it to the edge of the map
>Get your mechanic making mechanisms ASAP
>Get your carpenter making cages
>Get your plant gatherer gathering plants(make sure you have a food stockpile) after he's done cutting wood
>Build cage traps between wherever you have your dwarves hang out and the outside world
>Set your appraisal miner as the broker
In autumn, a dwarven caravan will come. Bring your stone crafts to the depot, and trade them for food/alcohol or things you need. Elven caravans come in the spring and Human in the summer, as long as they are neighboring.

The game is very dynamic and you could get torn apart by giant alligators or make any number of mistakes doing this, I'm just trying to think of the easiest way for a new player to get their bearings and this is what I'd do. An experienced player would start out completely differently than this, but the amount of knowledge required to do so is intimidating. Losing and learning from your losses is a huge part of the fun, though.

>>4350890
Sure but you can houserule anything into being hard. Without any of that Dwarf Fortress is quite forgiving, not just by roguelike standards but by ordinary standards. The only thing particularly difficult about it is the initial learning curve, which is admittedly rough.

By the way, you mentioned clearing Tetris on the highest settings, have you ever checked out the Tetris: The Grand Master arcade games? Those get pretty crazy!

>>4351038
Even things like Tetris 2 I can't be fucked to do any good with. That game gets autistic as fuck when you start including diagonal shapes or 5 blocks.

>>4351040
>5 blocks
Grand Master isn't about bullshit like that. It's the same basic rules you already know pushed to their highest limits. Check it out if that's your thing.

>>4350821
Not him but what you described doesn't sound near as hard. Just a lot of practice with the controls then eventually memorizing. Sounds like learning an instrument. Have you even tried beating roguelikes?

>>4351461
I wasn't the anon who brought up Joust, but yes, I'm a first-rate roguelike player and a middling arcade player despite putting more effort into the latter. The "arcade games are all memorization" stereotype is largely a myth. There's stuff like Pac Man where memorization is the easiest solution or R-Type where memorization is the only solution, but I would say those are the exceptions. A great many arcade games are impossible to fully memorize your way through due to RNG, and there are tons where memorization is possible, but where following a memorized route across an entire game is ridiculously difficult compared to learning fundamentals and playing reactively. Even incredibly skillful world record-level players deviate from their routes and when they do they need reactive skill to get back on track.

I haven't player Joust in decades so I couldn't say where in the spectrum it falls. I suspect it's one that could be memorized, but where the complex controls will inevitably cause you to deviate from your route at times at which point you'll have to rely on good fundamentals. It does allow you a break between waves for a few seconds, so it would be relatively easy to get back on your route.

>>4350957
Heck ya ill try this out, thx m80

>>4339403
This.
It's like the people who believe that fantasy and science fiction are the exact same genre with nothing to distinguish the two, versus the people who think that every single permutation of fiction needs its own genre to be pigeonholed into.

>>4341152
nRogue on the 3DS Smile BASIC system is pretty straight forward as far as a "rogue with a controller" plays. Basically just adds early cRPG pop-up menus.

>>4351949
>Joust
>complex controls
Are you sure you even player it decades ago? Sure you were tall enough to reach the controls then?

>>4353014
Not him but controlling your mount on Joust is like balancing an ice cube on a stick of butter.

>>4353014
It's only a joystick and one button, but the way everything you do is influenced by momentum which makes it difficult to move your character with the high level of precision the game demands.

>>4353260
Does that make it harder than Spacewar? At least in Joust the gravity always is down instead of pointing toward the center.

>>4353065
Sorry to hear about your parkinsons
>>4353260
Learn to use and take advantage of the game physics

tl;dr git gud

>>4354013
Stream yourself maxing waves.

>>4332407
>The Roguelike with the most development and largest community is Nethack.
that would be dungeon crawl

>>4353260
I hate this term but that actually sounds like artificial difficulty when imprecise controls are what makes it hard.

>>4354049
Is this the twitchbaby version of "pics of your $100 toy or you're as poor as me" or do you actually just want to see it done and don't know how to use grandpa shit like youtube?

>>4354278
Please don't invoke the artificial difficulty meme.

Anyway it's more or less like SMB1 where your character's movement is fairly nuanced, and if you acceleration and deceleration take time. You can't turn on a dime when trouble shows up, you need to be ready for it well in advance. Combine this with combat where life and death are never more than a few pixels apart and you've got a challenging game.

>>4332449
You mean Alien Isolation?

>>4339621
Then give us YOUR definition, paki.

>>4354479
You're acting like the game is easy. So prove it.

>>4355087
How does you sucking at a game and me not imply that it's easy? git average at reading comprehension.

>>4350821
>>4351949
>Arcade games are consistently the most challenging single player games.

In general I'm not sure I'd agree. Overall I think comparing reflex difficulty to strategic difficulty is a little pointless because they're so different. Though a genre that combines a high demand for both could be said to be the most challenging. Fighting games fit that bill and were born in arcades, but I don't think it applies to them all.

But that said, I will compare them for a minute. What you described with Joust does sound intense, but other than the controls being slippery it doesn't sound significantly different from high level Tetris.

Blocks start coming so fast that you have to keep only a line or two at the bottom or there's no time move your blocks. Then be pressing the direction you need it to go in as soon as it spawns to guide it to the right spot while rotating. And while you're doing that you need to be looking at the next block coming to planning what to do with it. One tiny slip up and your wall is too high to maneuver and you're toast. Minus the momentum aspect it's a very similar mix of fast thinking and precise skill.

Obviously an arcade game gets overwhelming to the point where you can't handle it, so technically it's more challenging. But personally I don't find that kind of thing nearly as interesting of a challenge. It's part of why even though I've played Joust a few times, but like most arcade games not much more than that. Rogue obsessed me though.

>>4351038
It was me that mentioned it and no I haven't. Other than Puyo vs Tetris I don't really play it any more. Every version has block holding which I don't like and I'm burnt out on it. Puyo or Panel De Pon are my main puzzle jams now as well as other random stuff.

>>4354603
Generally a roguelike is,
> overhead, tactical combat usually on a grid
>turn based
> random generation of world layout and item types
>complex item interactions (shoot ice at a water tile, it freezes. Dip a stick into oil to make a torch etc)
>hunger clock/time pressure
>permadeath (dying delets your save)

It varies from game to game and which adpects are more or less important to each but those are generally considered the cores.

>>4355427
>>complex item interactions (shoot ice at a water tile, it freezes. Dip a stick into oil to make a torch etc)
Gameplay depth is great and all but I do not think this is a core element without which a game cannot be considered a Roguelike. Roguelikes can be simplistic, too. I agree with all your other criterion.

>>4355441
>>4355441
Like I say they all vary in degrees, something with everything except that would still probably be a roguelike but it's often a core. The Berlin interpretation just calls it complexity which works as well.

>>4355378
I'd say the difference is more about demanding moderate performance over a long time versus demanding high performance over a short time.

The thing about roguelikes is that they don't really demand high levels of strategic or tactical thinking so much as they demand consistency. As long as you keep a few lifesaver items on hand and don't make any huge blunders, you should make it through.

Arcade action games rarely demand as much endurance as a roguelike would (a long arcade games lasts about an hour, a short roguelike lasts about ten), but they tend to demand very high levels of performance in both technical execution and tactical thinking. Generally they don't ask for a lot of long-term strategy, but there are some outstanding exceptions.

Rogue itself is an unusual case because it's surprisingly deep for how simple it is, and it's so exceptionally difficult that even tiny, pedantic optimizations are worth learning. I think its unfairness ruins its good qualities though. Even a perfect player will get RNG screwed a majority of the time.

>>4355513
>As long as you keep a few lifesaver items on hand and don't make any huge blunders, you should make it through.

I think my overall disagreement is that to me this shouldn't be the case with a roguelike. That the spirit of the genre is to have enough challenge that that's not the case. That the odds are stacked way against your favor and winning is a rarity.

That many of them, especially the longer ones like Nethack, fall victim to grindyness is a weakness to me.

That said, it's my preference probably because of Rogue itself and I get that's not what everyone wants or expects from the genre. But it colours everything I think about it.

As to whether turn based puzzle/tactics type games can be harder than reflex, timing precision games is probably impossible to say. You can make either one too fast\taxing or too complex for humans to handle.

>>4332206
i dumped hours into this game on my uncle's old computer when i visited my grandma as a kid. i never knew it could be beaten until a couple years ago, i thought it went on forever which made dying less frustrating. i played nethack recently and couldn't stand it knowing there was actually an end at some point that i would never reach.

>>4355556
>That many of them, especially the longer ones like Nethack, fall victim to grindyness is a weakness to me.
For sure. My favorites tend to be the ones where you can't grind and must deal with a strict time limit. Brogue is an outstanding example, as is Shiren the Wanderer so long as you don't use the item warehouse.

I got pretty far in Rogue but the Windows port I played would crash and burn whenever I got to banshees and they stole certain items or something.

>>4332206
I made it to level 21 once.

>>4339097
>Rouge
I don't want this thread filled with big fat bat tats

>>4355662
Not him but that's why I play so much Powder. Bloat kills roguelikes.

>>4355662
Whats wrong with the item warehouse? Is that like a shop?

>>4357395
It lets you use items from previous runs in your current run. It's not even a roguelike anymore if you use it. Note that the game is balanced around being played without the item warehouse, and there are even NPCs who challenge you to try playing without it.

>>4355264
You say you're good at it. Prove it. Record yourself maxing waves.

I tried roguelikes once (since I am also into old school RPGs). Got ToME cause people said its a good beginners roguelike.

Found it to be incredibly boring. It would just throw an insane amount of trashmobs at you and lull you into a false sense of security, then fuck your shit up when you were close to fall asleep. literally the only difficulty for the first several hours of the game was knowing when to retreat, go somewhere else, and kill bazillions of trashmobs there. then get nuked all of a sudden.

thats just not cool, i like difficulty, i like minimalism, but that particular combination just seems mindless.

I also tried Dredmor for a bit, that was a bit more fun but ultimately dragged on as well since all the monsters seem to behave exactly the same way.

How can I into roguelikes?

>>4358113
They may ormay not be to your liking. I recommend something short. Shiren the Wanderer, Brogue ir Powder. There's little monotony in them so you get ti the core of dangerous monsters and tough decisions right away.

As for how to "get into them" just keep doing what you're doing by try and learn from your mistakes. If a monster fucks you up royally, take that as a cue to do a anything possible to avoid it. You will never be able to fight everything you come across.

The genre is based around dying over abd over again while you slowly get better and learn strategies to deal with the crazy shit coming at you. At least initally, don't plan on winning just plan on learning.

>>4358113
I say just jump in and get the original Rogue. It might be a little bland from a modern perspective but there's less to confuse you and the difficulty does start at a reasonable level and increases gradually even if once you get halfway or so down the dungeon it can be somewhat extreme. Nethack is basically Rogue with character classes and a ton of silly shit added like monsters from other fiction, a "tourist" character who can use their credit card item to buy everything in the shops, fountains that do weird shit if you drink from them, if you're finding the purity of the vanilla flavor of Rogue to be understimulating go to Nethack. I would play either of those until you can consistently reach level 8 or 9 and then branch out to other games but that's just me

>>4358348
This is great advice, except maybe Nethack is unnecessary. If you keep playing Rogue till you can consistently get to level 10 or so you will have a good sense if these kinds of games are for you. And then look around to see which ones look or sound the coolest and focus on that for a while. There's tons to choose from and I wouldn't limit yourself to "retro" because a lot great has happened over the last decade or so and there's lots of variety. DoomRL fir example is different but super awesome.

>>4350821
Keep in mind the ones saying roguelikes are easy are also all relying on spoilers. So they're playing a strategy game having already read up the optimal strategies for how to win.

To compare them side by side you'd have to go with playing the roguelike without outside help or playing Joust or whatever with full knowledge of memorized AI patterns.

On a level playing field arcade games are nowhere near as hard.

>>4358348
What is the original version of Rogue?

>>4358837
He probably just meant DoS. Doesn't matter too much which specific version. There are several browser based ones.

>>4357519
Good to know but the NPCs all seem like dicks. The girl just blinds me and the fat kid steals all my food.

>>4332206
no because I just got into roguelikes recently.

started playing nethack in love it but I seem to have this problem where I can't get past the first two or three floors. I'll look everywhere but can't find a staircase down.

>>4359446
Have you tried using the 's' key to search for doors? Doors can sometimes be hidden.

>>4359576
She gets it. Early on don't waste much time searching unless you can't progress, you'll just waste food. But once you start getting deeper it gets important to look for traps.

>>4359576
I found some hidden doors but they led nowhere. Maybe I should play Stone Soup and come back to nethack later.

>>4359674
Keep searching especially at dead ends that arent a room.

>>4359674
Yeah just play whatever. Stone Soup is solid, if it appeals go for it.

>>4358113
Poor games have been your problem up until now. Your assessment of ToME is particluarly spot on.

Anyway, here are some recommendations:

Brogue is an excellent introduction as well as an excellent game. Strong pacing, effective minimalism. The game is quite thorough about telling you what things do, so the initial memorization barrier is low. Interesting character building system focused around enchanting your equipment.

Shiren the Wanderer is sort of the anti-ToME in that it's very good at keeping a consistent stream of dangerous enemies coming your way. By the halfway point you will regularly run into enemies who can take you out on their own if you handle them badly. Consumable items are very powerful, and are the key to withstanding that onslaught. The choices of when to use items and when preserve them forms much of the game's strategic element. It uses sprites rather than ascii, and is designed to be played with a controller rather than a keyboard, which you may or may not prefer. The SFC version's fan translation is solid.

Sil is an Angband variant that plays very differently from the others. It has a very strong focus on tactical positioning and a unique character building system. It's based on the works of JRR Tolkien, and is generally quite faithful to his work. The races are deliberately unbalanced, noldor are the easiest to win with and humans are the hardest. The time clock isn't as strict as in most roguelikes.

>>4332206
It will never be Return of Werdna

>>4359728
Agree with this guy's suggestions. Drop Nethack and never look back.

>>4358741
I still think it's pointless to try and compare the difficulty of reflex gaming to strategy gaming. What's more difficult, shooting skeet or playing chess? Who gives a shit? But it's true that spoilers and strategies have a huge impact.

>You hear maniacal laughter in the distance.
Part of why this always freaked me out so much is that I had no idea what it really meant, but almost always I died soon after.

>>4359728
Very good suggestions here. Also I'll take another second to shill Powder for the millionth time, it fits in well with them though. Streamlined enough that it works well playing on a portable handheld, but deep ewnough for lots of strategy and experimentation. Wonderful class system too.

>>4360731
>>You hear maniacal laughter in the distance.
I think that's a scroll of scare monster

>>4360785
Ohh yeah I know that now, but in the 80's with no internet and not even the instruction manual it always freaked me out. Knowledge is power in these games.

I like watching nethack players but I'm not great at it myself.

Also, I've been watching a zapm player recently, looks neat. Apparently doesn't share any code with nethack, for all that it plays like a trimmed down *hack made scifi in a lot of ways.

so yeah maybe you folks would also like Zapm. It's short. Also, The Slimy Lichmummy, another short roguelike.

>>4358741
It's really the other way around. A high-level arcade clear like a Gunbird 2 2-ALL or a Ketsui Ura 2-ALL is an immense undertaking even if you watch superplay videos, copy their strategies, use emulator save states to practice, consult directly with expert players for tips, etc. Hundreds upon hundreds of hours even for a talented player using every possible resource, and God knows how long without them.

Even completely unspoiled, most roguelikes are nowhere near that level. Maybe Nethack would take a comparable amount of time, but even then only because it has 100 gotcha kills that you'd never know about in advance.

>>4360731
>Also I'll take another second to shill Powder for the millionth time, it fits in well with them though.
If it's like those three then I really need to make some time to try Powder soon.

>>4358348
>tourist" character who can use their credit card item to buy everything in the shops
thats not how it works it just opens things

>>4362109
What about those two games takes hundreds and hundreds of hours learn to clear? You've said arcade games are so much harder, but other than needing good reflexes and dealing with wonky controls there's not much that sounds superhuman the way that's being described.

Meanwhile there's a claim roguelike games are all pretty easy even without spoilers which I find highly suspicious.

>>4362450
it depends a lot on how much annoying and unfun caution you want to take vs actually having fun doing stuff and getting punished. If you want to be super anal about it you could probably win most roguelikes in a single playthrough, but it would take a long time and be very not fun to most of us. You'd have to pass up a lot of potentially good opportunities unknowingly because you don't want to take any risks or try anything novel until you absolutely must. Not very appealing to most.

>>4363750
>>If you want to be super anal about it you could probably win most roguelikes in a single playthrough
not very likely
>the soldier zaps a wand of death DYWYPI

>>4362450
The two games I mentioned have perfectly simple, intuitive controls. They require immense ability in memorization, reaction time, precision, quick tactical decisions, and keeping visual track of many different things at the same time. If you're not using spoilers then you'll also have to figure out how to solve each section of the game before you memorize your route.

I like roguelikes and I don't think they're easy. However, consider that with how random they are, there's a limit to how hard they can get before turning into a luckfest. See: Rogue. Action games can have nearly infinite skill ceilings and thus can be much harder than what would be sensible in a roguelike while still leaving the result entirely in the player's hands.

I've picked up Powder and am playing completely unspoiled. If this thread is still going when I ascend, I'll post my results.

>>4363750
>it depends a lot on how much annoying and unfun caution you want to take vs actually having fun doing stuff and getting punished.
This is why food clocks and similar systems are a necessity.

>>4362109
>If it's like those three then I really need to make some time to try Powder soon.

I really like it. Decent challenge but nice and short, just an old stlye get to the bottom and get back out so when shit goes bad in the end game it doesn't feel like a huge loss.

I would say though to try and ascend for your first time with minimal spoilers. Familiarize yourself with the god/class system etc. But like with a lot of rougelikes there are some really cheesy things possible if you exploit the systems so it's much more fun to beat it normally first and then delve into the other stuff.

This >>436375 is a good description of how spoilers can ruin these games. It's a bit like save scumming, sometimes it seems like a good idea or practical time saver. Especially if you were deep into a game and the death seemed bullshit. But what they really do is suck the excitement out and turn it from a fun dangerous adventure into a miserable grindfest.

>>4363961
Not him but I still think you can't compare strategy difficulty to reflex difficulty in a meaningful way. Other than that, whatever.

Glad to see you're going with giving Powder a try! I've been trying to do an all ><0|V| run which has been good fun so far.

>>4359728
>Shiren the Wanderer is sort of the anti-ToME in that it's very good at keeping a consistent stream of dangerous enemies coming your way. By the halfway point you will regularly run into enemies who can take you out on their own if you handle them badly.

That's exactly how ToME is... which makes ToME the anti-ToME? That doesn't make sense.

You do have to play on the high difficulty levels to get that experience though. And a beginner can't do that (at least not without cheating), thanks to the game's unlocking system.

>>4360731
>What's more difficult, shooting skeet or playing chess?
Chessboxing

>>4364132
That's every roguelike worth playing. Dude is talking out his ass.

>>4363791
very very rare for that kind of thing to happen
if you actually were an experienced nethack player you'd know this

>>4364885
First rule of Nethack; if it CAN happen, it WILL happen. Twice.

>>4364885
It's very rare for something like that not to happen. If you were an experienced roguelike player you'd know this.

>>4364132
ToME throws utterly meaningless enemies at you for sometimes hours at a time so you're half asleep by the time something dangerous shows up. And since ToME has no time clock and a billion free escape options, the only difficult enemies are ones who oneshot you or stunlock you to death.

Maybe on the higher difficulties the length of time between dangerous enemies isn't as long? But that doesn't address the game's 500 other serious problems so who cares.

>>4363961
>The two games I mentioned have perfectly simple, intuitive controls. They require immense ability in memorization, reaction time, precision, quick tactical decisions, and keeping visual track of many different things at the same time.

That's why I mentioned high level Tetris play which is very similar in terms of precision, reaction time and decision making. It's hard, but I still consider the difficulty of balancing all the random factors in a well made roguelike on average harder to learn well. We will probably just have to disagree on this.

But also it's ultimately moot because either one can be made almost or completely impossible for a human to do. Also I'll say that I think overall the hardest genre to get into the top levels of skill is human vs human fighting games, which combine the need for extreme reflexes, excellent manual dexterity and strategy.

>>4365254
>>4365254
This is a problem with some of the more bloated roguelikes. Nethack is the same. At a point it becomes more about just knowing everything so you can exploit around anything the RNG does.

Part of why Rogue is still great.

>>4363983
>I would say though to try and ascend for your first time with minimal spoilers. Familiarize yourself with the god/class system etc.
Alright, I'll look up the basic mechanics since the game doesn't seem to explain them.

So far going full Hruth seems to be easymode until I get petrified by a cockatrice. Pax looks like he'd be strong but I don't like dealing with his requirements.

>>4365254

On the two highest difficulties the time between dangerous enemies is approximately zero. And no escape option is completely free. You're exaggerating, presumably because it's 4chan and everybody has to be a nihilist or else the boogeyman will get us.

The game has a problem with one-shot kills and stunlocking, yes, but every roguelike has potentially fatal flaws like that, because the entire genre absolutely requires high-quality AI in order to fully succeed, and high-quality AI doesn't exist (yet?). The player has to be generous, one way or another. ToME works as porn for somebody who likes designing character builds, and as a rare roguelike with a UI that doesn't appear to have been designed by cavemen. If you want that and you're generous, then you can easily find a good game in it, even an excellent one, and (to answer your question) you then become the one who cares. Like every other roguelike, it fails badly if you aren't generous with it.

The genre is not very well compatible with 4chan, really. Whiny, hostile nihilists are not normally generous.

>>4365316
Not a powder master but I would just run from cockatrices. They're not fast or spellcasting/item using so there's much more dangerous stuff to save wands for.

>>4365323
It's been a few years since I've played ToME, but as I recall there were equippable skills (infusions I think they were called?) that would do things like generate a force field or let you move 10 times in one turn, and activating them had no cost and took no time. They can be used an infinite number of times and their cooldown isn't really important since there's no time limit. If that's not a free escape then I don't know what is.

Anyway, its character classes are genuinely cool and the game's strongest point (though marred by being behind the stupid unlock system) but beyond that, every single aspect of the game is subpar. It rewards tediously luring out enemies one at a time and healing to full between every encounter. Its cooldown system turns combat into a repetitive snorefest where you use your one or two optimal combos every encounter. It's just not a very good game.

You don't need to be very generous with good RLs (or good games in general) to enjoy them. Brogue and Sil in particular don't need any generosity at all.

>>4365316
In my experience Hruth is actually one of the harder ones to win with. It's telling that he teaches you the hunger skills because almost as much as Pax you have to be careful about what you attack. Because your main combat is melee and many of the powerful monsters will fuck you up in close combat you need to be careful of both what you fight with and what spawns. Random mobs are mostly determined by what floor you're on and your hit dice. So if you run around killing every trash mob you see you'll start leveling too fast and later floors will be seas of soul suckers and elementals and shit. Just kill what you need to or what might give useful corpses. There's a push and pull because not leveling enough will also fuck you.

Also remember that your god is the one that matters most but they're all watching and having Pax burn you alive because you killed one too many mice sucks.

>>4365897
That does sound bad.

>>4364905
it will happen eventually across enough runs or enough stupidly wasted turns giving the rng more chances, but it is extremely rare. Pretending otherwise shows inexperience. Strong nethack players achieve very near to 100% win rates, and a novice with oracle use could win in a single run if they were aware of roguelike fundamentals like not wasting turns and took caution to an extreme and unpleasant degree.

>>4364915
I know that cumulative risk compounds, but if you don't waste turns in front of things you don't have very much risk. You must be wasting a lot of turns exposed to potential risk to make it compound to a significant threat.

Play more nethack you fools. Watch stronger nethack players play. Devnull tribute tournament is going on right now, great time to go improve. You two both speak of things that are rooted in some reasonable-sounding thinking that's not backed up by enough experience. Basically, mental vicarious theorycrafting players. Git gud.

>>4367507
>itp: reasons why Nethack sucks

>>4367603
Hate the term but I gotta agree. Nethack really didn't age well.

>>4332478
>not pacman commands
fucking casuals

>>4363791
>>4364885
>>4364905
>>4364915
Non nethack storytime.

>Playing Powder this morning, everything going well.
>Following Hruth, got Endure Hunger, a warhammer, magic lether tunic of something and feeling awesome.
>Floor 9, open a door room has the staircase down. It's also got a kobold, a zombie, a fucking Hill Orc and a gelatinous cube.
>kobold zaps a wand!
>something appears!
>you learn that a jeweled wand of create monster
>turns out the something was a ghost.
>ghosts go through walls and my hammer can't hit it apparently
>try to run, it paralyzes and almost kills me
>5hp
>zap digging wand at floor to go down a level
>huge open room, Imp casts fireball
>dead

Don't know how the hell I was supposed to get out of that one.

Powder rookie here. I got the ascension, though I did end up reading some spoilers in the end. After clearing the game I read through the things I missed. I think it would have been more fun to play 100% spoiled like I usually do - there are a surprisingly high number of cool item interactions!

Success in Powder seems heavily-dependent on getting the right items. You can't choose spells or skills until you find books, which are generated randomly. Speed boots are almost a necessity, though they are, thankfully, rather common. Understanding the unusual leveling system is crucial. Enemy level scaling is based on you fighter or mage levels rather than experience level, so H'ruth and Pax are not so helpful as they appear. It seems that the game jacks up enemy spawning to a ridiculous level if you get too high.

I started with the wizard god so I'd have higher chances of utility spell boooks, but spent the majority of my levels as a fighter. At the end I was a level 24 fighter and a level 9 mage. Pretty sure that's overleveled. Anyway, my run really got going when I found an artifact spear with warning and a physical damage bonus. I originally intended to go with only a few wizard levels so I could use heal and teleport, but I kept getting in near death situations against green dragons and I learned fireball just to have a way to soften them up from afar. Only later did I learn that green dragons have no breath attack and can be easily and safely beaten through abusing the speed system. Fireball was pretty useless throughout the run. Oh well.

Making Baezl'bub's heart disable teleports was a dick move. I had been abusing teleport to survive the whole way. Lots of close calls, I lost an amulet of life saving and I got hit with a soul sucker's amnesia. At one point I had to leave the heart behind to blink to safety and come back later.

Anyway, there are a lot of things about it I don't care for, but overall Powder is a pretty good game.

>>4369820
>>4369820
Nice work! And yeah you see now why I recommended few spoilers. It throws lots of shit at you, but there's some real powerful things you can do once you know how. Dual wielding a lightning rapier and ice mace with an earth hammer in your back pocket can trivialize a lot.

24/9 is pretty high, counter intuitively though higher is mostly harder I find. The lowest I've done is 3/8 and was actually the easiest, if at times the most tedious. I spent the whole time just possessing shit, even the minotaur and Beezl'bub. The bottom floor still had headless and ghasts on it, was nuts.

I think not teleporting with his heart is good though. Mages are already easier and without that, the trip back up would be trivial for them. I like that getting out is almost as dangerous as going down. I've died there a few times.

>>4369597
Sometimes things like that just happen, not much you can do. Ghosts are one of the scariest things in the game. Any time I see a lake I just run. Even if there's an artifact it's not worth it.

>>4370961
>24/9 is pretty high, counter intuitively though higher is mostly harder I find.
I can definitely see that. I took the time to gain a few extra levels when I found myself having troubles with the hordes of kobold assassins and soul suckers, but now I know I was only making things worse. I don't mind the stronger monsters, but when the spawn rate starts to freak out it's not fun anymore. It's good that the game encourages hasty diving, it just isn't immediately clear that that's the best solution.

Definitely agreed that the antiteleport heart is a good idea. The ascent would be trivial without it. But it sure was discouraging at the time.

>>4371559
Yeah it's come to be one of the things I really l like about it, but over leveling is one of the most dangerous things you can do and a very easy trap to fall into.

But I like that it's one if the things that makes you have to really consider every kill you make and what class you are changes it up. Chameleons are pretty much the only things I always rush to kill asap no matter what.